DB: I wasn't worried about myself and my family, because it was going to be, in the first place, half across the world. I was horrified at the thought that nuclear war could be imminent, and that it could not be kept to one small area. And I think, also, I did have an odd thought that, well, for a long time now the Americans have had missiles pointing at the Soviet Union. Now they were located on the other side of Europe. The Soviet Union had never had hysterics. Why is America having hysterics now? And I'm afraid that was the other half of the thought I had.

DB: I think it was very important for making people realize what the ultimate possibilities could be of something like nuclear war, that it wasn't just something to protect yourself from by putting brown paper over the windows - which you may remember was the Government advice. (Pause) Yes, I think it was the publicity angle that was most important about CND; and reminding people of the moral situation, perhaps.

DB: Oh, yes. I think the first thing that stopped the growth of the peace movement in a way was the election which put Labor back in government, because some fairly leading Labor figures stopped their commitment to CND. And then of course there was the question of the international discussion about control of nuclear weapons, the development of them. I mean, only in April last year, of course, was the attempt to continue this international control. That, I think, was the 10-year, was it, or was it longer than that? I hesitate to know the facts on that one.

(Cut)

(A bit of chat)

DB: No.

DB: I don't believe the Cold War was necessary. I think there were deliberate attempts by media, and certainly by leading politicians, to make statements which inferred situations that did not exist. And I'm quite categorically clear in my own mind that the Soviet Union, for instance, had far too much trouble trying to build up its own country after the war, to be interested in provoking another war. And I think that... a little more understanding of the international situation could have avoided all that talk. Actually, it went back to the situation before the war, when some of our folk were dispatched over to the Soviet Union to make trade agreements, officially. They were given no powers to sign trade agreements, and it's on record that the situation was so ridiculous that when they finally left the place, the Russian folk were laughing their heads off. So I mean, really, the Cold War was a return to pre-war attitudes.

DB: No, I don't think America had anything to fear. I think America..... possibly tends to be... what I would think of as immature in some ways. We noticed this during the war, that some of the young Americans that were over here were certainly politically immature; they really hadn't seen or thought much beyond their own American boundaries, and they tended to imagine things that didn't exist in the rest of the world. I mean, look at the... position in America when they starton the trials of Communists; look at their attitude to folk like Paul Robeson, Charlie Chaplin. I mean, it wasn't a balanced attitude; it was probably stirred up by a mixture of media and some politicians who thought they were on a winner for themselves.

DB: But on the other hand, they didn't have millions going into a gulag, which is what yohad happening in the Soviet Union, so you could maybe say that America was more mature - it had a few trials of showbiz personalities, but it didn't have camps with millions inside.

DB: I'm not suggesting that the Soviet Union was perfect. Those of us who were prepared to be sympathetic to the ideas of total socialism were not always given all the information about the Soviet Union, that... obviously, from what we've learnt since, they didn't carry out their ideology to a high degree. In fact, one of the things I found that grieved me about the collapse and break-up, not only of the Soviet Union but other parts of Eastern Europe, is the fact that I don't feel that basic socialism has failed. What I do feel has failed is the human involvement in the carrying out of it.

(Pause)

DB: I think perhaps that boosting of flights into Berlin, that stuck in my throat rather. It... was so stupid, it was so completely... piece of filming, that was all.

DB: Mm.

DB: Definitely for ill, because it prevented... basic and honest exchange of opinions, of ideas, and all the rest of it, which meant that, as a result of the Cold War, there were delays in doing things, in organizing things which might otherwise (Interruption) have gone ahead.

DB: The effect of the Cold War was definitely for ill.

(No more recorded on this audiocassette)