- MN Mateo VHVN Ui 9 GEHISSWQEG so SECRET 118715502 2 5 13 61 Approved in May 24 19 64 UNITED STATES DELEGATION To THE THIRTY-THIRD MINISTERIAL MEETING OF THE NORTH ATLANTIC COUNCIL The Hague Netherlands May lE-lh l96h MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION Date May 12 l9 h Time '6 f 0 p 01 Place - British Embassy Participants United States United Kingdom The Secretary of State Foreign Secretary Butler William R Tyler Assistant Lord HOod Deputy Under-Secretary Secretary EUR Sir Evelyn Shuckburgh U K PermRep to NATO Ronald I Spiers Mr E J w Barnes Foreign Office Mr J N Henderson Private Secretary France Foreign Minister Couve de Murville Mr Charles Lucet Director of Phlitical Affairs eCt Tripartite discussion of Von-Dissemination Copies to 5 5 EUR Amembassies PARIS LONDON RPM 3 sh PARIS for USRO MOSCOW BNA 1 1235 FEE A999 Before turning to the subject of non-dissemination the Secretary gave a brief report on developments on Cyprus and said that Ambassador Stevenson was checking with the Turks and Greeks on the possibility of increasing the authority of the UN forces pursuant to the Greek statement of yesterday Mr Butler said that he would try to bring the Greek and Turkish Foreign Ministers together As the situation now Stood Erkin will probably GROUP Downgraded at 3 year intervals Declassified 12 years after date of origin SECRET 0 9 031513961330 SECRET -2- make a violent speech and the Greeks will reply in kind The Secretar agreed that it would be harmful if the Greeks and Turks' left The Hague without seeing each other Erkin will probably talk in the restricted session tomorrow where since he will not be talking to so large an audience he may be more moderate Mr Tyler said that a further problem to be faced will be the O'ladrir partite Ambassadorial group reports which Canadian External Affairs Minister martin and Dutch Fbreign Minister Luns asked for in today's session Both Couve and the Secretary said that it would be better to have these reports made to the Perranent Council Couve reiterated that something should be included in the communique on this subject Lord Hood gave the Ministers a report on the afternoon's quadripartite working group session The Secret said that our major concern in this entire matter was the need to look down the road and make sure that we are all together with respect to the consequences of our policies as well as on the first steps We were all agreed on the essential point of German reunification as the objective With respect to the procedural situation Sir Evel said that if the Canadians pressed for a report we should all say that there is nothing yet to report on The Secretary said he would speak to Paul Martin in order to try to head him off Mr Butler said that he had suggested the meeting for a short discussion about whether progress can be made on non-dissemination He referred to the U K draft which had been given to the US and to France in washington and Paris He said it seemed a pity since we were united on our policies on this question not to be able to state our position publicly in this form The Secretary said the US sees some advantage in clarifying our policy 1 attitude on this matter without necessarily getting ourselves in a ntractual relationship with the Soviet Union If the policies of our three untries are all ali ed publicly this could be of some value in discussions lth other countries such as Israel who might be tempted to go down the nuclear trail Solidarity among the three would tend to discourage others - Couve said that France had no problem in s hst use th the British document If only for sel ishness none of us run to give anything away in this field It is difficult to say formally h ever in effect that we are sinners but we don't want others to join us in sfn He himself was a Puritan He thought to issue a declaration such as this would be fpatroniz ingJ' The Secretary noted that there was a differelee be ween old sinners and new ones The US does not feel the same sensitir ty n this subject SECRET 8 llEQ wVN 0 B jSSi6A'G 01'41'1 lI01 nv G3HISS f1 30 SECRET -3Couve said that Israel and Egypt I ere Dla 'lageable probleJ ls They could be troublesome bud did not involve real dangers There were only two real probleifts China and Germany The Secretory said that China can start off a reaction in India and Japan Couve agreed that the Indians have the required scientific and techni al ability Nevertheless we were nat going to be able to stop China but China was nat going to be able to go very fast The Secretory observed that the USSR itself might try to stop China at same s t age Couvc agreed that the Soviets must be an dous obout this problem The Secretary repeated that we 1 Quld be able to t ke part in the British declaration While it does not provide any oosl-1CrS i t doe s i ndicate usefully a direction of policy Couve wandered llhether there had been ooy recent development ir the Soviet position on this question The Secretary said t hat he had tlot tall ed ITith the Soviets further since he last saw Couve Previously he had prc6sod Dobrynin on the MLF question to determine whc ther the Soviet objection to the MLF is principally on nan-dissemination grounds or whether it is for other reasons Dobrynin insisted it ITas solely nan-dissemination The Secretary said if he Jere Russian he would take the seme view of the MLF in the absence of kno ring 'That the real arrangements l auld be We kne that the MLF would not constitute disseminntion in the sense of giving individual national govern ments control aver the use of nuclear eapons When the Russians see the arrangements the y may realize that the MLF will be more secure than the presen' bilateral arrangements He did not thin1 the Soviets have slammed the door The Secretary asked Mr Butler's vifMS on timing of such a declaration Mr Butler said that he had not envisaged releasi ng it here C uve said that France would not be able to join in this declaration for the reasons he had cited It has no practical effect and does not in any 'Tay alter the present policies The Secretary estijllnted that no one -- other than China -- could uject to such a decllll p tion Couve said that most of the world would not pay _1 1 ttention to it Mr Butler sked i i' Couve s objections were principally Puri tan ' or political Couve replied Everything is political Mr Butler asked if t he French had ever thought of talking to the Rus s ians an this sub ject They lIould perhaps hnve 'lnore i nfluence ' i th the Sovi t'lt s sinc e they we not an MLF pc rticipant Couve replie d in the negati ve ob '' 'Ving that the SOViets had the sB ce policy 'Te did a n this question _ l 1 o a t ' i eve that t hey would give np con rol over any nuclear weapc 3 ' ' 'l y argue i n f avor of the MLF n th X ly convict i on He doc s not I ' ' J L ' the standpoint of nan-disseminati on The MLF will give peopl e ' t us' e ' of luclear v eapons Of course he 1 Quld not say t his outside this ro SECRET - M3720 VHVN Ui 3 E GEIHISSW330 SECRET The Secretarx suggested that the U K declaration might pin down the fact that there is a ceiling on the MLF and serve to reaffirm our policy that it will not involve transfer of control to individual countries Mr Butler suggested that this matter had been carried as far as it could and that it be discussed further through diplomatic channels Couve nodded The Secretarx said that he wished to speak to Pres dent Johnson on this question and would subsequently write directly to Butler and Couve regarding our own views on the pros and cons of this matter He thought a purely bilateral declaration would be undesirable The entire problem of non-dissemination still concerned us We were worried about Israel s capa- bilities and intentions in this field We were not concerned at this point about Egypt and our technical experts had discounted the recent reports of fallout rockets ' CouVe reacted with surprise that we had any concern about Israel SECRET                     National Security Archive    Suite 701  Gelman Library  The George Washington University    2130 H Street  NW  Washington  D C  20037    Phone  202 994‐7000  Fax  202 994‐7005  nsarchiv@gwu edu