Stenographic Transcript Before the COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES UNITED STATES SENATE NOMINATIONS Thursday March 1 2018 Washington D C ALDERSON COURT REPORTING 1155 CONNECTICUT AVENUE N W SUITE 200 WASHINGTON D C 20036 202 289-2260 www aldersonreporting com 1 1 NOMINATIONS 2 3 Thursday March 1 2018 4 5 U S Senate 6 Committee on Armed Services 7 Washington D C 8 9 The committee met pursuant to notice at 9 30 a m in 10 Room SD-G50 Dirksen Senate Office Building Hon James 11 Inhofe presiding 12 Committee Members Present Senators Inhofe 13 presiding Wicker Fischer Cotton Ernst Sullivan 14 Perdue Cruz Graham Sasse Reed Nelson McCaskill 15 Gillibrand Blumenthal Donnelly Hirono Kaine King 16 Heinrich Warren and Peters 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 2 1 2 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON JAMES INHOFE U S SENATOR FROM OKLAHOMA 3 Senator Inhofe The meeting will come to order 4 The committee meets today to consider the nomination of 5 Lieutenant General Paul Nakasone to be Commander of the U S 6 Cyber Command and Director of the National Security Agency 7 and Chief of the Central Security Service 8 bit of stuff there That's quite a 9 Also Dr Brent Park to be Deputy Administrator for 10 Defense Nuclear Nonproliferation at the National Nuclear 11 Security Administration and Ms Anne Marie White to be 12 Assistant Secretary of Energy for Environmental Management 13 We thank you for joining us this morning 14 Also at the appropriate time we would invite you to 15 introduce your families which I have already had the honor 16 of meeting 17 It's standard procedure and it is a requirement of this 18 committee to ask certain questions so I'd like to ask seven 19 questions and if you would just vocally come out with a yes 20 or no at the same time 21 22 Have you adhered to applicable laws and regulations governing conflicts of interest 23 General Nakasone 24 Dr Park 25 Ms White I have Yes Yes Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 3 1 Senator Inhofe And will you ensure that your staff 2 complies with deadlines established for requested 3 communications including questions for the record in the 4 hearings 5 General Nakasone 6 Dr Park 7 Ms White 8 Senator Inhofe 9 10 Yes Yes Will you cooperate in providing witnesses and briefers in response to congressional requests 11 General Nakasone 12 Dr Park 13 Ms White 14 Senator Inhofe 15 Yes Will those witnesses be protected from reprisal for their testimony in briefings General Nakasone 17 Dr Park 18 Ms White 19 Senator Inhofe Yes Yes Yes Do you agree if confirmed to appear and testify upon request before this committee 21 General Nakasone 22 Dr Park 23 Ms White 24 Senator Inhofe 25 Yes Yes 16 20 Yes Yes Yes Yes Do you agree to provide documents including copies of electronic forms of communication in a Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 4 1 timely manner when requested by a duly constituted 2 committee or to consult with the committee regarding the 3 basis for any good-faith delay or denial in providing such 4 documents 5 General Nakasone 6 Dr Park 7 Ms White 8 Senator Inhofe 9 10 Yes Yes Yes Okay And lastly have you assumed any duties or undertaken any actions which would appear to presume the outcome of the confirmation process 11 General Nakasone No 12 Dr Park 13 Ms White 14 Senator Inhofe 15 General Nakasone if confirmed you will become the No No All right 16 first Commander of the U S Cyber Command as a unified 17 combatant command 18 important step but much work remains for you to do 19 especially with regard to centralizing the responsibilities 20 currently spread across three different agencies 21 DOD we have FBI and you have DHS 22 Creating the unified command is an We have Another one of your top priorities if confirmed must 23 be ensuring that Cyber Command readiness If the services 24 do not deliver their required tools capabilities and 25 personnel we are in danger of a hollow cyber force Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 5 1 Two days ago Admiral Rogers was repeatedly questioned 2 by this committee on the role of the Cyber Command and 3 specifically his command's response to the Russian 4 disinformation campaign around our 2016 presidential 5 elections 6 discredit our president consumed over half of that hearing 7 Hopefully that's not going to happen again today 8 be a disservice in two ways 9 Unfortunately the partisan propensity to It would First it assumes that Cyber Command action would be 10 the only response to the Russian disinformation campaign 11 when in reality it should be a whole-of-government 12 approach especially given that disinformation is just part 13 of the threat that Russia poses to the United States 14 confirmed it will be your responsibility to provide insight 15 and recommendations to policymakers on the whole-of- 16 government approach to respond to these attempts 17 If Secondly and perhaps more problematic for the 18 committee's role today the full scope of the U S Cyber 19 Command the stated mission of the Cyber Command is to 20 defend the homeland defend military computer networks and 21 develop and employ military cyber capabilities 22 robust task and the committee should ensure that General 23 Nakasone is fully vetted on all aspects of that command 24 25 That is a The National Defense Strategy makes it clear that if renewed Great Power competition with Russia and China leaves Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 6 1 every domain including cyber contested without coercion 2 across the entire government that we will remain at a 3 significant disadvantage 4 By the way we had three of the senators with me over 5 the past 13 or 14 days actually looking into this 6 in the area of the South China Sea where we had a growing 7 threat from China and some things that we were not even 8 aware of prior to going there 9 We are Dr Park you've been nominated to oversee the NNSA's 10 mission to detect secure and dispose of dangerous nuclear 11 and radiological material 12 expects you to address the proliferation of nuclear and 13 radiological materials among both state and non-state 14 actors develop technologies to detect nuclear and 15 radiological proliferation worldwide and to collaborate 16 internationally to secure the safe expansion of global 17 nuclear energy 18 If confirmed the committee And Ms White if confirmed you will be responsible 19 for the safe and timely cleanup of our nuclear waste 20 Unfortunately the environmental office of DOE has been 21 plagued with management issues safety concerns and 22 continuous technical challenges 23 out for you there 24 Senator Reed You've got your work cut 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 7 1 2 STATEMENT OF HON JACK REED U S SENATOR FROM RHODE ISLAND 3 Senator Reed 4 I would like to welcome our witnesses and congratulate 5 them for their service already and for their willingness to 6 serve in the Department of Defense and other agencies 7 Well thank you Mr Chairman Let me also recognize your families who are such an 8 important part of your contribution to the nation 9 you all 10 Thank General Nakasone your service as the Commander of 11 Cyber Command's National Mission Force Commander of the 12 Army Cyber Command and the Commander of Joint Task Force 13 ARES which targets ISIS Internet propaganda and recruiting 14 in addition to your extensive experience in intelligence 15 makes you a highly qualified individual to serve as Director 16 of the NSA and Commander of CYBERCOM 17 If confirmed the challenges that you will face include 18 disrupting and exposing cyber-enabled information operations 19 conducted by Russia and other countries 20 pointed out the Russians are conducting these operations as 21 we speak and we have to do something 22 stakeholders you have to develop whole-of-DOD and whole-of- 23 government approaches to cyber and information warfare and 24 establishing deterrence policy and capabilities that will 25 in time help to prevent significant nation-state cyber and As Admiral Rogers Working with other Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 8 1 information warfare attacks against the United States 2 These are no small tasks but it is more important now than 3 ever that these threats to our national security are 4 confronted head-on and not ignored 5 Dr Park you are nominated to be the Administrator for 6 Defense Nuclear Nonproliferation the primary role in the 7 National Nuclear Security Agency for controlling the spread 8 of nuclear material around the world and promoting its 9 peaceful use In that regard this committee will look to 10 you as the point person for ensuring countries that want to 11 develop peaceful uses of nuclear energy are technically 12 capable of doing so while assisting the International 13 Atomic Energy Agency with the ability to conduct monitoring 14 Nuclear nonproliferation remains vital to maintaining our 15 national security and global stability 16 will be asking you to give us your forthright assessment on 17 nuclear proliferation concerns in the Middle East North 18 Korea and around the world 19 If confirmed we Ms White you are nominated to serve as the Assistant 20 Secretary of Energy for Environmental Management If 21 confirmed it will be your responsibility to oversee the 22 large and complex cleanup operations involving former 23 defense production sites at the Department of Energy 24 the cleanup program began more than 25 years ago the 25 majority of the less complex sites have been completed Since Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 9 1 Current cleanup operations require much more care due to 2 their complexity 3 Washington which has some 55 million gallons in 177 4 underground tanks and Los Alamos New Mexico which is 5 resuming plutonium disposal operations at the Waste 6 Isolation Pilot Plant after an accident four years ago These include sites like Hanford 7 You will be challenged to complete these projects 8 quickly and efficiently under the tight budget constraints 9 required by your obligation to serve as a steward of 10 taxpayer dollars 11 us regular updates on your progress on these issues while 12 ensuring you have clear lines of communication to the states 13 where these operations take place 14 If confirmed we will look to you to give I would again like to thank the nominees for your 15 willingness to serve and I thank you very much for your 16 service to our nation Thank you 17 Senator Inhofe 18 What we're going to do now is have opening statements 19 We're going to try to confine them as close as you can to 20 5 minutes 21 record and we won't count the time against you as you 22 introduce your family 23 Thank you Senator Reed Your entire statement will be made a part of the We're going to start with General Nakasone 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 10 1 STATEMENT OF LIEUTENANT GENERAL PAUL M NAKASONE USA 2 TO BE GENERAL AND DIRECTOR NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY CHIEF 3 CENTRAL SECURITY SERVICE COMMANDER UNITED STATES CYBER 4 COMMAND 5 General Nakasone Senator Inhofe Ranking Member Reed 6 and distinguished members of the committee I am honored to 7 appear before you today regarding my nomination as 8 Commander U S Cyber Command and Director of the National 9 Security Agency Chief Central Security Service 10 I want to thank President Trump Secretary Mattis and 11 General Dunford for their confidence in nominating me for 12 these important positions 13 14 Let me also thank my wife Susan for being here much of my success to her love and support -- 15 16 Senator Inhofe you are 17 18 I owe Raise your hand Susan so we know who There we are General Nakasone -- throughout nearly 25 years of marriage 19 moves and numerous deployments 19 Susan and I are also joined today by our children 20 Sarah David and Joseph 21 is in college today taking his midterms 22 exceptionally proud of all of them 23 Our son Daniel our eldest son We are I want to thank Admiral Mike Rogers for his 36 years of 24 commissioned service to our nation Admiral Rogers has led 25 Cyber Command and the NSA during a time of incredible Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 11 1 transformation and rapid growth I thank him and his wife 2 Dana for all they have done in service to our nation 3 For the past 10 years I have had the privilege to 4 lead plan and execute Joint and Army cyberspace operations 5 supporting national Combatant Command and service 6 missions 7 the cyber capacity and capabilities within the Department of 8 Defense 9 the daily operations conducted by Joint Task Force ARES we 10 In this decade I have seen incredible growth in From the stand-up of our cyber mission force to are rapidly maturing our cyber forces 11 When I first started working cyber operations these 12 operations were often just concepts and when conducted 13 performed ad-hoc by technical specialists on loan from other 14 organizations 15 and highly capable cyber force is built and in the fight 16 aggressively defending our network conducting daily 17 operations against adversaries and strengthening the combat 18 power and lethality of U S forces around the world 19 Today this is not the case Now a mature This swift growth represents tremendous opportunity 20 and if confirmed I plan to continue this impressive 21 progress 22 But I've also seen cyber threats to our nation grow 23 exponentially and adapt just as quickly From adversaries 24 conducting exploitation of our networks to the harnessing 25 of social media platforms for false messaging to targeting Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 12 1 our elections to destructive attacks the Department and 2 our nation face significant challenges in this ever-growing 3 domain 4 5 These challenges have taught me several important lessons over this past decade 6 First that operating and aggressively defending our 7 networks is a foundational mission 8 weapons platform 9 Our network is our Second I've learned that we need to impose costs on 10 our adversaries to ensure mission success by persistent 11 delivery of cyberspace effects in defense of our nation and 12 in support of our combat forces 13 Third I've learned that defending the nation in 14 cyberspace is a team effort requiring a whole-of-nation 15 approach -- government military industry and academia -- 16 as well as international coalition partnerships 17 The fourth and most important of these cornerstones I 18 have learned that while technology drives change in 19 cyberspace it's the people -- the soldiers the sailors 20 the airmen the Marines the Coast Guardsmen along with our 21 civilians -- who guarantee our success 22 and deserve the best leadership training and equipment to 23 do their mission 24 25 Our people demand I recognize that Cyber Command and the National Security Agency are two unique and vital organizations with Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 13 1 their own identities authorities and oversight mechanisms 2 I am committed to leading both with vision with drive and 3 with purpose for the future 4 adaptive approaches are always needed to solve the new 5 challenges constantly emerging 6 Cyberspace is dynamic and Finally I sit before you today with the understanding 7 that we are at a defining time for our nation and our 8 military 9 and threats to the United States' global advantage are Near-peer competitors are posturing themselves 10 growing Nowhere is this challenge more evident than in 11 cyberspace 12 With this in mind if confirmed to lead U S Cyber 13 Command and the National Security Agency I will ensure our 14 military commanders and national decision-makers can call 15 upon an aggressive and globally dominant cyber force with 16 the capability and capacity to defend us at home and apply 17 pressure on our adversaries abroad 18 In closing I am deeply honored to be considered for 19 these leadership positions 20 working with the committee and the entire Congress to ensure 21 we leverage our opportunities and also address our 22 challenges 23 If confirmed I look forward to Senator Inhofe Ranking Member Reed thank you for the 24 opportunity to be here this morning 25 answering your questions I look forward to Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 14 1 The prepared statement of General Nakasone follows 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 15 1 Senator Inhofe 2 Dr Park Thank you General 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 16 1 STATEMENT OF DR BRENT K PARK TO BE DEPUTY 2 ADMINISTRATOR FOR DEFENSE NUCLEAR NONPROLIFERATION NATIONAL 3 NUCLEAR SECURITY ADMINISTRATION 4 Dr Park Chairman Inhofe Ranking Member Reed 5 distinguished members of the committee it is a tremendous 6 privilege to appear before you today 7 this opportunity to serve my country and wish to thank 8 President Trump and Secretary Perry for having placed their 9 confidence in my ability to lead the NNSA's Office of DNN 10 Mr Chairman and the members of the committee if you I am honored to have 11 will permit me I will introduce my family my wife Min 12 Park of 23 years and my two daughters Clara and Ella who 13 are with us and watching from afar are my parents in 14 Nevada 15 and colleagues for their support and good counsel during the 16 confirmation process 17 And finally I would like to thank my close friends Mr Chairman the United States has long been a leader 18 in the global effort to combat nuclear proliferation 19 NNSA's Office of DNN leads those efforts securing nuclear 20 material around the world building international 21 partnerships to raise barriers against the illicit transfer 22 of proliferation-sensitive technologies or materials and 23 eliminating highly enriched uranium and separated plutonium 24 If confirmed my top priority will be to continue 25 executing DNN's crucial mission supporting the President's Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 17 1 objectives of achieving and maintaining a balance between 2 the promotion of legitimate nuclear commerce and controlling 3 the spread of weapons-usable material equipment 4 technology and expertise 5 Mirroring NNSA Administrator Lisa Gordon-Hagerty's 6 recent testimony these objectives cannot be accomplished 7 without people 8 competency of the workforce across the enterprise will also 9 be one of my highest priorities 10 If confirmed maintaining the core A significant portion of the NNSA workforce 11 specifically scientists engineers and technicians are 12 approaching retirement in the next five years 13 critical nuclear nonproliferation and weapons expertise and 14 cross-train the workforce I will work to ensure that we are 15 able to employ the brightest and the best by recruiting 16 retaining and growing the highly skilled workforce needed 17 to strengthen the nation's security against nuclear threats 18 To retain For more than 20 years and most recently as the 19 Associate Director at Oak Ridge National Lab my 20 professional life has been dedicated to the nuclear security 21 enterprise 22 interdisciplinary science and engineering programs and 23 formulated transformational R D built on sound business and 24 operational experience 25 with the U S national defense homeland security and I have led and managed the complex My work has included collaboration Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 18 1 intelligence communities in the application of advanced 2 technologies to meet national security requirements 3 As the Director of the DOE NNSA Remote Sensing 4 Laboratory I led the efforts to advance and field cutting- 5 edge technologies in support of counterterrorism and 6 radiological incident response for the nation 7 NNSA's DNN office if confirmed would be the highest honor 8 of my career 9 To lead Mr Chairman defense nuclear nonproliferation and 10 indeed the nuclear security enterprise is at a crossroads 11 Should I be confirmed I will work tirelessly with my NNSA 12 DOE and interagency counterparts to ensure the United 13 States continues to lead in the global efforts to combat 14 nuclear proliferation and terrorism 15 Again I thank you for inviting me to appear before 16 this committee today 17 you have now and if confirmed to address questions that 18 you may have in the future 19 I am prepared to answer any questions The prepared statement of Dr Park follows 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 19 1 Senator Inhofe 2 Ms White Thank you Dr Park 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 20 1 2 STATEMENT OF ANNE MARIE WHITE TO BE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF ENERGY FOR ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGEMENT 3 Ms White Senator Inhofe Ranking Member Reed and 4 members of the committee and professional committee staff 5 thank you for the opportunity to appear before you as the 6 President's nominee to be Assistant Secretary of Energy for 7 Environmental Management at the Department of Energy 8 warmest thanks to your respective staff for taking the time 9 to share the issues of concern regarding environmental My 10 management and for outlining expectations of me in the role 11 of EM-1 a role that involves fulfilling our moral 12 obligation to provide a cleaner safer healthier 13 environment by having a clear plan of action to address our 14 nation's environmental legacy challenges from World War II 15 and the Cold War 16 I am honored to appear before the committee and thank 17 President Trump and Secretary Perry for displaying their 18 confidence in me through nomination to this important 19 position 20 confirmation I look forward to working together with you 21 and your staff to resolve the demanding issues that confront 22 the nation by safely reducing environmental and cost risk 23 and delivering meaningful results that protect the U S 24 taxpayer 25 Should the United States Senate honor me with its I would like to introduce Scott Anderson to the Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 21 1 committee 2 greatest supporter 3 colleagues for being here today 4 Scott is my best friend strongest advocate and I also thank my close friends and My Master's degree is in nuclear engineering and I was 5 fortunate enough to have graduated at a time when the 6 environmental field was relatively new and rife with 7 opportunities for innovation and development 8 degree a creative and curious mindset and an appreciation 9 for our environment I determined the nuclear cleanup field 10 With my was a good fit for me 11 I began my career performing physical cleanup work in 12 the field 13 business bottom up rather than top down 14 instrumental in developing my understanding from multiple 15 vantage points of the complex challenges facing the 16 Department in its environmental management mission 17 My strategy was to learn the environmental This has been It is important to note this work is not without some 18 level of risk The women and men in the field implementing 19 plans and delivering projects are of primary importance at 20 the EM sites 21 dressing out in protective gear and doing difficult physical 22 work there would be no cleanup and no risk reduction 23 Maintaining and further building trust with the workforce 24 that we rely on to address our nation's environmental legacy 25 challenges will be a focus throughout my tenure Without these individuals in the field Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 22 1 My early career experience in the field was informative 2 and provided a sound basis to help me form my consulting 3 firm 4 commercial and government nuclear industry and the mentoring 5 from well-respected industry experts have helped me grow 6 into an experienced leader and innovative problem solver 7 Since founding my firm my years working within the For the past 25 years I have consulted with 8 commercial government and international organizations 9 solving complex problems here at home and abroad I have 10 worked at a number of EM sites providing me with direct 11 experience addressing the difficult technical and 12 stakeholder issues the Department faces while driving 13 forward the cleanup mission 14 Through the years I have had the good fortune to work 15 and collaborate with a wonderful group of smart technically 16 savvy peers to cost-effectively solve seemingly intractable 17 problems 18 ingenuity and optimization 19 I have been able to work on visit and understand some of 20 the world's great nuclear and environmental challenges 21 Therefore I consider this potential key leadership position 22 at DOE-EM to be an opportunity to maximize my private sector 23 experience and knowledge to assist the Department in 24 mitigating risk and working toward eliminating existing 25 environmental liabilities This was done through teamwork innovation Over the course of my career Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 23 1 Should I be confirmed accountability to safely meet 2 responsibilities commitments and milestones will start 3 with me and I will further expect Federal staff and our 4 contractors to deliver results that will protect the 5 investments made by the hardworking American taxpayers 6 further commit to you that I will communicate and work 7 closely with this committee the conscientious staff within 8 the Department Congress Native American tribes 9 regulators local communities and the dedicated site 10 workforce to set priorities that will have current and 11 lasting positive impact on the overall EM program 12 I Senator Inhofe Ranking Member Reed and members of the 13 committee thank you again for this opportunity to appear 14 before you as the President's nominee for Assistant 15 Secretary of Energy for Environmental Management 16 forward to answering your questions as you consider my 17 nomination 18 I look The prepared statement of Ms White follows 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 24 1 Senator Inhofe Thank you Ms White 2 Be informed that we have votes coming up at 11 45 and 3 so probably by noon we're going to try to finish this 4 hearing 5 And then also there will be some people leaving both 6 Democrats and Republicans for a short time because we are 7 also meeting with another committee at the same time 8 including myself 9 out So this will be a little bit of an in and 10 We'll have 5-minute rounds Is that okay with you 11 Senator Reed 12 Senator Inhofe 13 General Nakasone the mission of Cyber Command as I Sure Okay 14 said in my opening statement is to defend the homeland 15 defending military computer networks and developing and 16 employing military cyber capability 17 As the combatant commander you are an operational 18 command that has got to operate within the authorities that 19 you are given 20 policy but are responsible for executing the established 21 policy You are not responsible for developing cyber 22 Russia used online media as was called to our 23 attention to try to influence and degrade our election 24 process in 2016 which has nothing to do with you but I 25 have a question to ask you General Nakasone Two days ago Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 25 1 Admiral Rogers was asked multiple times about who is 2 responsible and what our response should be to another 3 attack by Russia on our elections 4 options that we could do in response -- sanctions counter- 5 attack and more 6 through how the government could respond to this and what 7 your role would be in that decision-making process what 8 your role would be 9 There are a lot of If this happened again can you walk us Use your mic 10 General Nakasone Senator thank you In terms of my 11 responsibility my role if confirmed as Commander of U S 12 Cyber Command that is to provide a series of options to our 13 civilian leadership for their determination whether or not 14 actions would be taken against an adversary 15 the case that you laid out the ultimate response 16 obviously resides with the President for that decision and 17 Congress 18 for our critical infrastructure at this time that process 19 rests with Department of Homeland Security 20 In this case But in terms of response and the responsibility What I would say in terms of the options that I would 21 provide obviously they are focused on cyber options but 22 there are probably a wide variety of different options that 23 should be considered 24 from a number of capabilities that our nation provides 25 Senator Inhofe Deterrence in this space could come Thank you Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 26 1 Admiral Rogers two days ago when he was testifying he 2 said -- and this is a quote -- he said We are not where we 3 need to be with respect to the structure and organization of 4 the whole-of-government approach to cyber attacks on the 5 homeland 6 Now we talked about this before and you've been 7 addressing this with the FBI DHS and DOD 8 ideas for improvements that we could make structurally in 9 this process 10 General Nakasone Do you have any Senator when I look at the 11 structure that's laid out today and the role of DOD the 12 Federal Bureau of Investigation and Department of Homeland 13 Security each with their unique authorities and their 14 unique capabilities I'm struck that what we must do with 15 this structure is improve the crosstalk the coordination 16 the sharing that goes on 17 percent of our networks are within the private sector that 18 that private sector is likely to be the first indicator of 19 some type of intrusion or attack the importance of being 20 able to share that information rapidly amongst all three 21 players to ensure that we understand what is going on and 22 being able to address it is paramount 23 If you consider today that 90 So I come back to this very very close coordination 24 that must be improved as we look at the three different 25 elements Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 27 1 Senator Inhofe Okay I wouldn't expect you to come 2 up with results because this has been a problem that's been 3 there since we established the program 4 Dr Park I want to just get a comment from you having 5 to do with the Iran deal that was made under the Obama 6 Administration 7 deter the regime from becoming a nuclear state contained 8 sunset clauses set to expire in just a few years 9 Several of the most important provisions to Dr Park how can the U S mitigate proliferation 10 potential in Iran after these provisions expire in a few 11 years 12 Do you have any ideas on that Dr Park So Senator it requires an international 13 partnership working closely with the IAEA to make sure 14 whatever they do in terms of operating nuclear reactors and 15 so on are strictly monitored 16 fact advancing proliferation detection systems out of DNN 17 office and we will work closely with all the stakeholders 18 to make sure they comply with all the rules and regulations 19 imposed on them Okay We have been developing in 20 Senator Inhofe That's very good 21 Ms White I do have a question for you but what we're 22 going to try to do is stay on schedule 23 from one of the other members here shortly 24 Senator Reed 25 Senator Reed So it will come I'll try to ask the question of Ms Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 28 1 White 2 In fact let me start with Ms White Ms White the Hanford site can you tell us very 3 quickly what do you expect where the progress can be made 4 there the most quickly 5 significant and expensive sites 6 Ms White Because it is one of the most The Hanford site is very complex There 7 are numerous challenges there from tank waste to some of 8 the waste management issues 9 when I'm looking at these problems is that there's a very 10 long time scale involved in all things nuclear so we need 11 to make sure we make decisions that are timely that are 12 technically underpinned and cost underpinned 13 kind of decision-making I would be applying to not only 14 Hanford but all of our great environmental challenges we 15 face across the complex 16 Senator Reed 17 General Nakasone the National Defense Science Board One thing I like to consider That's the Thank you very much 18 Task Force the Defense Science Board Task Force made 19 recommendations to develop campaign plans essentially to go 20 after deterrence or be prepared to go after key assets of 21 our opponents such as the wealth of Putin oligarchs their 22 financial transactions corruption in Iran information 23 issues with respect to Russia China and North Korea 24 Do you agree with those recommendations 25 General Nakasone Senator I do agree with the Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 29 1 recommendations 2 they laid out both what we should hold at risk and also the 3 idea of resilience and the continuing challenges of 4 attribution were three critical points that I think come 5 together and speak to the larger issue 6 I thought the Defense Science Board as Senator Reed Are you -- are we preparing such plans 7 detailed campaign plans with respect to these potential 8 issues 9 10 General Nakasone So Senator given the open nature of this conference let me simply state yes 11 Senator Reed Okay But as I think the Chairman 12 indicated any of these plans to be executed require the 13 civilian approval by the SecDefs and then ultimately the 14 President 15 General Nakasone 16 Senator Reed That is correct Senator In terms of the critical infrastructure 17 so much of it is privately held and there are variable 18 degrees of attention paid by the private sector to these 19 cyber issues which I think leads us to significant 20 vulnerabilities 21 Is that your assessment also General Nakasone Senator I would say that there are 22 varying degrees of resilience within our critical 23 infrastructure today yes 24 25 Senator Reed And I know you're not the lead agency That I presume would be the Department of Homeland Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 30 1 Security 2 government approach to this 3 level of effort the speed 4 quickly enough to face these potential threats 5 But you will be participating in the all-of- General Nakasone Are you satisfied with the Are we getting our act together So Senator in my current 6 responsibilities as Commander of Army Cyber I don't have as 7 robust a picture as I need to and certainly if confirmed 8 that's one of the things I would look at 9 a general statement I'm never satisfied with defense of 10 anything so I think we have to take a hard look every 11 single day I would offer as 12 Senator Reed Thank you sir 13 Dr Park at present the government of Saudi Arabia is 14 tendering offers to build nuclear reactors for electricity 15 production 16 discovered that the Iraqis were using their civilian program 17 to actually develop nuclear weapons 18 developed the additional protocols that they call the gold 19 standard 20 Emirates in particular and they in fact did adhere to the 21 gold standard 22 adhere to the additional protocols 23 After the first Iraq war we learned and As a result IAEA We have engaged in transfer of technology to the Dr Park Do you believe that Saudi Arabia should also Senator generally speaking first and 24 foremost in any of the nuclear weapons -- nuclear 25 technology transfer we need to achieve the highest Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 31 1 standards when it comes to the nonproliferation from host 2 countries 3 practical to make sure that we get to provide the leadership 4 in actually overseeing some of these operations mainly 5 because there are other countries as you know that can 6 provide similar technologies to Saudi Arabia or other 7 countries that may be interested in nuclear reactors for 8 example 9 Having said that we need to be realistic and This is critical That's the only way we can actually 10 provide assurances to our leadership and protect the United 11 States and our allies and partners 12 Senator Reed But it strikes me that we've already 13 entered into an arrangement with the Emiratis who are our 14 close colleagues in everything we do in the Middle East 15 just got back from Jordan 16 these additional protocols 17 with the transfer 18 Because if we don't we're lowering the threshold of 19 proliferation even if it's symbolically lowering it 20 Dr Park I They do in fact adhere to We insisted upon it I think Why should we make the same insistence So Senator from the technology standpoint 21 we are actually improving constantly what we can do to 22 monitor and verify that they are complying 23 negotiation details I don't have any details at this point 24 in time 25 Senator Reed In terms of the Thank you very much Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 32 1 Thank you Mr Chairman 2 Senator Inhofe 3 Senator Sullivan 4 To all the nominees congratulations and your Senator Sullivan Thank you Mr Chairman 5 families 6 want to thank the families as well 7 your desire to serve our nation in these important 8 positions 9 I know it's not always easy on the families so I We appreciate all of General Nakasone I want to start with you We've had 10 a number of hearings in this committee on cyber strategy or 11 the lack thereof which I think is probably the more 12 pertinent issue 13 this is in the Obama Administration the Trump 14 Administration civilians military -- is that it's been 15 common knowledge in open hearings by the way that our 16 adversaries who use cyber attacks against us clearly see 17 that the benefits of doing these kind of attacks outweigh 18 the costs meaning that a pretty broad consensus is that we 19 really haven't retaliated hardly at all whether it's Iran 20 North Korea Russia China 21 One of the things that's come out -- and We had a hearing last year about a year-and-a-half 22 ago General Clapper was on his way out as DNI He 23 publicly stated in an open hearing that the Chinese attack 24 on the Office of Personnel Management when they stole 22 25 million files -- I'm sure they stole yours and mine and Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 33 1 others who had SF-86s 22 million -- and I asked him did we 2 retaliate against China 3 He said no no So can you give me your thoughts on this We seem to 4 be the cyber punching bag of the world and it's common 5 knowledge 6 committee in an open session saying nope we get hit and we 7 don't retaliate 8 the North Koreans the Chinese 9 10 We have officials who have come before this We don't retaliate against the Russians What's your thought on that and should we start cranking up the cost of the cyber attacks on our nation 11 General Nakasone Senator I'd offer three thoughts to 12 your question 13 critical for us to be able to set the framework not only for 14 how we operate but also as a message to our adversaries as 15 well 16 The first thought is a strategy a doctrine Senator Sullivan But do you think we have that right 17 now 18 you do a cyber attack on America what's going to happen to 19 them 20 21 What do you think our adversaries think right now General Nakasone If Basically I would say right now they do not think that much will happen to them 22 Senator Sullivan They don't fear us 23 General Nakasone They don't fear us 24 Senator Sullivan So is that good 25 General Nakasone It is not good Senator Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 34 1 2 Senator Sullivan So will you work to change that if confirmed 3 General Nakasone Senator if confirmed and as the 4 policy is worked I would certainly provide input as an 5 operational commander 6 To my second point -- 7 Senator Sullivan By the way I think you'd have 8 broad-based support on this committee Republicans and 9 Democrats if you said that if that was part of your 10 strategy 11 General Nakasone Secondly Senator what I would 12 offer is that right now as this space develops the 13 cyberspace develops the longer that we have inactivity the 14 longer our adversaries are able to establish their own 15 norms I think that is very very important that we realize 16 that 17 And then the final piece I would offer is that we 18 should always think of cyberspace not necessarily as only 19 being a cyber response 20 our nation 21 something we should always think about 22 23 Being able to leverage those capabilities is Senator Sullivan And maybe that's overt maybe that's covert but I would agree with you on that 24 25 We have tremendous capabilities in Well I think we need guidance in terms of a broader cyber strategy and if confirmed we're going to be relying Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 35 1 on you a lot for that 2 key part of that 3 But I think deterrence has to be a Dr Park I want to turn to you As you probably know 4 SOCOM recently took over the lead in the counter-WMD mission 5 from STRATCOM 6 with regard to this mission which is probably when you 7 think about it at least from my perspective the most 8 important mission that our U S military and interagency 9 Federal officials undertake do you think we have enough 10 interagency cooperation within the counter-WMD mission 11 obviously plays an important role 12 And as you know the interagency cooperation DOE And let me ask just another question that's a little 13 bit unrelated but I want to get that in before I run out of 14 time 15 proliferate chemical weapons technology and chemical weapons 16 to Syria does it concern you that the North Koreans will 17 use these same proliferation networks to potentially 18 proliferate nuclear materials and technology Given the recent news that North Korea was able to 19 So two questions 20 Dr Park 21 deeply disturbing 22 DPRK's intent and past behavior in transferring technologies 23 and selling technologies 24 be responsible for would be doing its very best to monitor 25 the activities especially when it comes to the nuclear Senator on the last question first it's In fact we're very concerned about If confirmed the office I would Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 36 1 materials but also when it comes to other supporting 2 technologies that might be used 3 Going back to your first question we have a very 4 robust engagement interagency engagement amongst the 5 different parties 6 critical role in equipping Special Forces and other 7 departments with the latest technologies 8 not be part of my office within NNSA there is an office 9 called N80 a counterterrorism office and it does a Especially NNSA has been playing a very Although it would 10 fantastic job in terms of actually coordinating and sharing 11 experiences 12 sure the responders are adequately trained 13 proof There are exercises that we undertake to make Yes we need Yes we need more support 14 Senator Sullivan Thank you 15 Thank you Mr Chairman 16 Senator Inhofe Senator Peters 17 Senator Peters Thank you Mr Chairman 18 And thank you to our witnesses for being here today and 19 your willingness to serve in these very very important 20 positions 21 General Nakasone I'd start with you First off I 22 want to say I appreciated the opportunity to talk at length 23 on some of these issues in my office 24 attention and if confirmed look forward to continuing to 25 work very closely with you on some of the things that we I appreciate that Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 37 1 talked about 2 The one issue in particular that we had a chance to 3 talk about was some of the recruiting challenges for cyber 4 professionals and also the need to make sure that if we're 5 dealing with a whole-of-government approach that all 6 Federal agencies have the ability to have top-tier cyber 7 professionals 8 joint duty program similar to the joint forces in the 9 military where different branches have an opportunity to see We talked about a possibility of having a 10 how the different branches work so we don't have silos 11 between different military services 12 for the civilian force as well 13 The same could occur I'm very involved in autonomous vehicles as we talked 14 about in my office so that's certainly going to be critical 15 infrastructure as all of these cars are going to be 16 interconnected and they're going to have to have expertise 17 at the Department of Transportation and at NHTSA that may 18 not have been at that level in the past but certainly they 19 could learn a great deal from interacting with the military 20 services and your command in particular 21 If you could talk a little bit about how a joint 22 service program might work how that's something that might 23 add to our ability to have people kind of cross-pollinating 24 great ideas that they can bring back to their respective 25 agencies Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 38 1 General Nakasone Senator thank you When we think 2 about cyberspace a lot of times we think only of 3 technology 4 and you hit the point in terms of being able to cross- 5 pollinate this talent But what underpins technology is our talent 6 In the military we think about it in the active and the 7 reserve component but critically within our civilian force- 8 - and 20 percent of our teams are made up of civilians -- 9 the ability to go to other places to serve to learn to be 10 able to experience this is very very important to us 11 as we look across agencies as we look to bring greater 12 partnerships amongst our agencies I think joint duty 13 programs would be an area that we certainly could explore 14 based on the benefits to both organizations 15 Senator Peters I appreciate that So We also talked 16 about how you were interested in bringing highly skilled 17 individuals into the military perhaps at a direct 18 commission at a higher rank 19 that's going forward that you have been involved with I know there's a pilot program 20 Could you give us a sense of how that pilot program is 21 going and do you need any additional support from Congress 22 to expand direct commissioning programs that would bring in 23 highly trained cyber professionals perhaps at a higher 24 rank 25 General Nakasone Let me first begin with a thank you Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 39 1 to the committee for all the work that has been done to 2 provide a number of different programs 3 direct commissioning program Scholarship for Service 4 advanced individual pay 5 that have been critical for us 6 You hit on the These are all different elements Specifically with regards to the direct commissioning 7 program today what we have seen in the Army is we need 8 greater constructive credit 9 data or forensics malware analyst being able to get more 10 credit for that service to bring you at a higher rank will 11 allow us to probably bring in a higher level of talent 12 This is an early program 13 the past 90 days 14 Senator 15 So if you are a high-end big We've started it roughly within That's the early results that we've seen Senator Peters And finally I was struck by a talk 16 that you did in 2016 at which you discussed the very highly 17 successful Army recruiting commercial that you termed a 18 breadcrumb where you challenged folks to solve a problem 19 Could you talk a little bit about that and is that 20 something that you think we should expand 21 General Nakasone The credit goes to the Army 22 recruiting agencies that have done this But our idea was 23 let's appeal to our young people in a way that they know 24 that they should be experiencing what life is like for us 25 We hid a code in the commercial and that code was if you Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 40 1 saw it allowed you to log on to a site and it allowed you 2 to try to solve a puzzle 3 We've had over 8 million people try to solve this 4 puzzle and less than 100 000 have been able to do it 5 that's the type of talent that we're looking for and that's 6 the type of originality that's the type of action that we 7 think will attract our best and brightest to be part of our 8 force to be part of the greater Department of Defense to 9 be part of national service 10 Senator Peters 11 Dr Park a question related to research and So Thank you 12 development of technologies that will give us breakthroughs 13 in order to better identify potential violations of 14 treaties 15 which allows the IAEA to use modern technologies which is a 16 fairly open-ended concept 17 could be tremendous advances in our ability to detect 18 potential violations 19 And I'm thinking about the JCPOA in particular So over the next few years there My question to you is do you agree that the NNSA has a 20 role in pushing for these breakthroughs and what sort of 21 priority would you place on that if confirmed 22 Dr Park Senator NNSA especially out of the R D 23 office within DNN has been pushing the envelope on getting 24 the latest technologies incorporated into the sensors that 25 we use for proliferation detection nuclear proliferation Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 41 1 detection and we work closely with the military branches 2 and IC members 3 incorporating the latest and the greatest using the 4 different types of materials will actually make our 5 verification efforts more successful 6 support in the R D area 7 Senator Peters Great 8 Senator Inhofe Senator Sasse 9 Senator Sasse 10 11 I'm confident that our continuing efforts So I appreciate your Thank you Thank you Mr Chairman Congratulations to you all Thanks for your willingness to serve 12 General you know that I'm a big fan of yours and our 13 country is blessed to have you in this new role so this 14 isn't a hostile question to you 15 your exchange with Senator Sullivan 16 cyber war but we're 4 years into regular attacks against 17 the United States to which we publicly admit we don't 18 respond or we don't respond in any way that's sufficient to 19 change behavior 20 But I want to go back to We're 31 years into Your exchange with Senator Sullivan is the most 21 important thing that will happen on Capitol Hill today We 22 have hundreds of hearings around here 23 them are fake 24 and lots of questions that we ask and they all seem like 25 they're equal because they're questions and they go on and Eighty percent of Ninety percent of them are pointless Lots Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 42 1 on and senators pontificate 2 What you just said was that you agree with Admiral 3 Rogers I think right 4 said Russia has not received any response from the U S 5 sufficient to change their behavior 6 Do you agree 7 General Nakasone 8 Senator Sasse 9 Admiral Rogers earlier this week That's what he said It has not changed their behavior And three years ago at the OPM hack we had Obama intelligence chiefs up here primarily before the 10 Homeland Security Committee and we asked them the exact 11 same questions 12 States Government that's sufficient to change the Chinese 13 behavior 14 15 Is there any response from the United And they said absolutely not Do you think there's any reason the Chinese should be worried about U S response at the present 16 General Nakasone Again I think that our adversaries 17 have not seen our response in sufficient detail to change 18 their behavior 19 Senator Sasse So this is ultimately not the 20 responsibility of uniformed military to bear the brunt of 21 the hopefully rightful anger and ire of the American 22 people but their government is failing them 23 at the executive and at the legislative level we are not 24 responding in any way that's adequate to the challenge we 25 face At the top We face in cyber war if we're just playing cyber Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 43 1 defense we have an asymmetric threat against us because 2 we're the biggest most advanced economy in the world we 3 have the most electronics and 90 percent of our critical 4 infrastructure is in the private sector 5 absorb attack after attack after attack unless we have 6 offensive cyber capabilities 7 We do have the capabilities So we stand to The problem is not 8 technical But if we had the will and the strategy and 9 adjacent to cyber response a sense that diplomatic tools and 10 kinetic responses were all on the table 11 American people have any confidence in their government 12 right now in the area of cyber war 13 General Nakasone Why should the Again Senator I would offer from 14 my comments previously 15 How are we going to respond 16 within the military or the cyber realm that we're going to 17 do it 18 able to -- an adversary to determine that this is a behavior 19 that we don't accept is important 20 We have to think of this broadly It's not necessarily always But obviously offering a response in terms of being Senator Sasse And again let's distinguish among 21 three different groups that have culpability here The NSA 22 and CYBERCOM and DOD need to present options 23 have a technically trained workforce that's able to respond 24 and we need leadership that can be strategic enough to lay 25 out a menu of options We need to But ultimately the top of the Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 44 1 executive branch and a legislature that's responsible for 2 oversight is where the people should be angriest 3 But if you were going to assess blame right now -- 4 don't put it on the legislature because somebody else will 5 ask you a hard question in response to that 6 the oversight in this body is woefully inadequate 7 the top of the DOD world and at the handoff to civilian 8 leadership what does that conversation look like right now 9 where a menu of options is presented and then what happens 10 But clearly But at next and when will we be more urgent 11 General Nakasone Senator you offer a number of 12 different questions that right now in my current role I 13 couldn't give you an informed response 14 happen is obviously if confirmed I provide a series of 15 cyber and military options that's considered by the 16 Secretary of Defense and ultimately the President 17 is only a realm of one portion of our deterrence and others 18 will have to bring the whole-of-government piece of what we 19 might offer Senator 20 Senator Sasse What I think has to But this When we're in the classified space and 21 we talk about overmatch in every other domain we know we've 22 got lots and lots of challenges 23 our problems primarily technical or are they primarily 24 strategic and will 25 General Nakasone In the cyber space are Senator I would offer that we have Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 45 1 a number of different capabilities and I don't think that 2 our problems are either of those 3 to do is continue to determine what is the best way forward 4 here what fits within our national strategy and then act 5 on that Senator 6 Senator Sasse I think that what we have I'm out of time But again I want to 7 reiterate that our country is blessed to have you in this 8 new role 9 people around here including me have great confidence in You're clearly going to be confirmed Lots of 10 you But I do want you to know I think there is bubbling 11 up in this body a little more seriousness about the urgency 12 and I hope that at DOD and at NSA we feel that urgency in 13 response Thank you sir 14 Senator Inhofe Great statement Senator 15 Senator Hirono 16 Senator Hirono 17 I'll start by asking all three of you the same two Thank you Mr Chairman 18 questions that I ask nominees to all of the committees on 19 which I serve The first question is -- these are just yes 20 or no answers I'll start with Dr Park and then General 21 Nakasone and Ms White to respond 22 First question Since you became a legal adult have 23 you ever made unwanted requests for sexual favors or 24 committed any verbal or physical harassment or assault of a 25 sexual nature Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 46 1 Dr Park No 2 Senator Hirono 3 General Nakasone 4 Ms White 5 Senator Hirono General No No Second question Have you ever faced 6 discipline or entered into a settlement related to this kind 7 of conduct 8 Dr Park No 9 General Nakasone No 10 Ms White 11 Senator Hirono 12 General Nakasone Admiral Rogers of Cyber Command 13 testified before this committee earlier this week that the 14 authority and therefore the responsibility for preventing 15 ongoing Russian interference with our upcoming elections 16 lies with the Department of Homeland Security not with 17 Cyber Command 18 No Thank you Do you agree General Nakasone Senator as it is laid out today 19 the responsibility for the critical infrastructure of the 20 electoral system does reside within the responsibility of 21 DHS 22 Senator Hirono 23 General Nakasone 24 Just with the critical infrastructure The electoral system as being part of that critical infrastructure 25 Senator Hirono So what about the content of various Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 47 1 kinds of misinformation that is promulgated by Russia to 2 interfere with our elections 3 stop those 4 General Nakasone Who has responsibility to Again Senator in the construct 5 that we have today the electoral system falls within the 6 responsibility of the Department of Homeland Security 7 Senator Hirono So what I'm trying to get at is what 8 constitutes the electoral system If the main 9 responsibility lies with Homeland Security and all of its 10 components relating to elections then I just want to 11 clarify that that is not a responsibility that Cyber Command 12 has in your understanding 13 General Nakasone That is my understanding It begins 14 with the states who have overall responsibility for their 15 electoral process and then falls within DHS as the overall 16 critical infrastructure lead for that area 17 Senator Hirono So in your view the Department of 18 Homeland Security is the appropriate department to ask 19 questions about what they are doing to prevent the 20 continuing Russian attacks on our elections of all the 21 departments that we could ask that question of 22 23 General Nakasone Certainly Senator they do have the lead for that 24 Senator Hirono Thank you 25 Now you've been asked some questions about our non- Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 48 1 response to various cyber attacks and particularly the 2 state-sponsored cyber attacks 3 responsibility lie to develop a whole-of-government strategy 4 to respond to cyber attacks particularly state-sponsored 5 cyber attacks 6 General Nakasone So where does the An overall strategy Senator I 7 would offer would emanate from the executive branch 8 terms of what the Department of Defense would do obviously 9 is plan for certain responses and if directed conduct 10 In those activities 11 Senator Hirono So when you say the executive branch 12 do you mean the President of the United States should be the 13 person that convenes all of you to develop a whole-of- 14 government strategy as to how to respond to these ongoing 15 cyber attacks particularly the state-sponsored cyber 16 attacks 17 General Nakasone Obviously the National Security 18 Council Senator would probably be the lead that would do 19 that today 20 Senator Hirono Do you know if that's what's happening 21 right now that they are taking the lead to develop such a 22 strategy 23 Because we do not see it General Nakasone Senator in my current 24 responsibilities it's not something that I'm aware of 25 today but if confirmed it's certainly something that I Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 49 1 would lean into 2 Senator Hirono That's good 3 When Admiral Rogers was here there were some questions 4 as to what he would consider to be priorities that he would 5 advise his successor -- that would be you -- to address and 6 I wanted to follow up with you 7 8 If confirmed what is number one on your list of priorities for CYBERCOM to accomplish under your leadership 9 General Nakasone Senator it begins with readiness 10 We've built a force now 133 teams 11 approaching the full build 12 measure their readiness can they do their mission are 13 their personnel equipment training right that they can 14 continue to do their missions in the future 15 readiness element is the number-one priority that I would 16 look at Senator 17 Senator Hirono These teams are So we have to be able to I think this Since my time is running out I'm 18 probably going to want to follow up with you because there 19 are all kinds of issues relating to this and this is also 20 for Dr Park because you have a lot of retirements 21 happening in your bailiwick soon to be 22 concerned about how you're going to ensure that you get the 23 right kind of people 24 you would ensure that you get the best and the brightest 25 and I don't know how you're going to ensure that when we So I'm really Particularly Dr Park you said that Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 50 1 have competition for the best and brightest talent from the 2 private sector 3 Thank you very much Mr Chairman 4 Senator Inhofe 5 Senator Perdue 6 Senator Perdue 7 General congratulations on your nomination and thank Thank you Thank you Mr Chair 8 you for the time we personally spent earlier this week 9 very impressed with your record 10 I'm Thank you so much for your decades of service sir 11 I have a question on organization In late August -- 12 and we talked briefly about this -- President Trump 13 announced that the Cyber Command would be elevated to a 14 unified command 15 NDAA is clear that it would only be executed once the 16 Pentagon studied the split from NSA and certified it would 17 not pose and I quote an unacceptable risk to the 18 mission 19 But we know that Section 1642 the 2017 What's your opinion coming into this job and how will 20 you help us 21 possibility of splitting NSA and Cyber Command or is that 22 something you already have an opinion on 23 Will you make a recommendation about that General Nakasone Senator I don't have a predisposed 24 opinion on this I think we begin with the question 25 What's best for the nation And I think that's critical for Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 51 1 us to consider 2 Security Agency and U S Cyber Command stay together under 3 one leader 4 separate National Security Agency and a separate combatant 5 command 6 Is it best for the nation that the National Or is it time now that we think about a The Congress has laid out a series of conditions upon 7 which both the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman must 8 attest to 9 that among the early things that I would do is make that 10 assessment and in the first 90 days provide that to the 11 Secretary of Defense for his consideration and the Director 12 of National Intelligence 13 Senator Perdue If it's to split I would imagine if confirmed Thank you sir Let's also talk about 14 with regard to the first 90 days 15 classified environment I would personally like to see the 16 committee have you come back and talk about the menu of 17 options that you will provide to the President once you get 18 to that point the potential menu of options for deterrence 19 and for measured response 20 At some point in a One of the questions we have right now before Admiral 21 Rogers was here earlier is the definition of an act of war 22 In cyberspace I'm not comfortable that we have today a 23 clear understanding of what constitutes an act of war and 24 there are people who have testified before this committee 25 that have said when we look back upon this time and the Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 52 1 actions taken by some of these near-peer competitors out 2 there and others that some of these actions will rise to 3 the level that will be defined as an act of war 4 agree with that 5 General Nakasone Do you Senator as we think about an act of 6 war and we think about response ultimately this is a policy 7 decision upon which civilian leadership will make that 8 determination 9 confirmed that is to provide a series of options In terms of what I see my role would be if 10 capabilities for civilian leaders to consider to utilize or 11 not utilize in the future 12 Senator Perdue And my last question goes to the 13 organization of services within the military the 14 integration with corporate America and integration with the 15 government 16 coming into this job one of the challenges I think you're 17 going to have with the technology rapidly growing is how 18 do we leverage our position here in limited resources from 19 the human capital point of view using technology to stand up 20 to the pressures and the quantum leaps that we see our near 21 competitors realizing today When we look at DOD DHS FBI in your mind 22 So the question is how do we prepare for that Does 23 artificial intelligence does technology do robotics or 24 some of these technological developments allow us to develop 25 the same sort of leadership role or create a delta between Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 53 1 our capabilities and our competitors like we have in the 2 kinetic world 3 General Nakasone Senator your question strikes at a 4 chord for me because I think it talks to our national 5 defense strategy which really emphasizes partnerships and 6 alliances 7 Defense and particularly within the Army is the fact that 8 to stay abreast of what's going on in the technology sphere 9 you have to look broader than your service you have to look 10 What we have learned in the Department of broader than the services 11 So partnerships that we have been able to utilize with 12 Defense Digital Service or Defense Innovation Unit 13 experiment have been extremely powerful for us to get a 14 better feel for what's going on in the private world where 15 all this technology explosion is taking place expose our 16 soldiers and civilians to that provide an ability for them 17 to leverage that and also for private industry to 18 understand that the talent that we have here and the 19 missions that we're working here are critically important 20 for the security of our nation 21 Senator Perdue So you agree that competing hacker to 22 hacker so to speak is not a strategy that will win against 23 someone like the People's Republic of China and that 24 technology is going to have to play a role in it 25 The Defense Innovation Board concluded late last year Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 54 1 some similar findings they presented some of the similar 2 findings 3 two how do we assure that the individual services all have 4 a similar level of proficiency as they develop their own 5 individual capability 6 coordinate that 7 My question is do you agree with that General Nakasone And in your role will you help So Senator to your first question 8 I do agree with the idea that we have to leverage 9 technology 10 And then This is not a heavy labor-intensive country We've always leveraged technology for our benefit 11 In terms of how we do this across the services there 12 are wonderful ideas that are in the Navy the Air Force the 13 Army the Marines on doing this 14 that I would play if confirmed is to make sure that we 15 have a very very high bar for innovation that we have a 16 very very high bar for those unique individuals that can 17 play a critical role in developing the technologies that our 18 nation will need in the future 19 Senator Perdue 20 Thank you Mr Chairman 21 Senator Inhofe 22 you a question 23 preside while I go I think one of the roles Thank you sir Thank you Senator Perdue Let me ask Are you able to stay for a few minutes and Thank you very much 24 Senator Perdue presiding 25 Senator Gillibrand Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 55 1 Senator Gillibrand Thank you Mr Chairman 2 General Nakasone when we spoke yesterday I asked you 3 to look into this issue of the 13 Russians who have been 4 indicted by the Department of Justice 5 military and the entire country considers election 6 infrastructure critical infrastructure and I know you've 7 already answered my colleagues that your job as Commander of 8 Cyber Command is to give the President options but not to 9 create policy and I also understand that you agreed with 10 some of the testimony of Admiral Rogers yesterday that we 11 aren't doing quite enough to prevent 12 Obviously the One of the things we raised yesterday was about the 13 National Guard potentially bridging the gap in authorities 14 and jurisdictions between an attack on our country and 15 systems that are operated at the state and local level 16 you see a potential role for the Guard in addressing this 17 issue 18 General Nakasone Do So again Senator coming back to 19 it if this is the policy decision and what's laid out in 20 terms of what we will follow I'm certain that the National 21 Guard and working within that construct could be of 22 assistance 23 Senator Gillibrand Yesterday we also spoke about how 24 to build and retain a cyber mission force that addresses our 25 strategic needs In our Personnel Subcommittee we are Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 56 1 currently looking at whether our cyber force should be 2 approached different from other communities in the military 3 From your experience as Army Cyber what do you think 4 the services and Cyber Command could be doing to develop and 5 retain this workforce and how could we better use the 6 Reserve component to develop an agile workforce 7 General Nakasone So Senator I can speak to the 8 first part of your question on what the services might do 9 from my own experiences within the Army There were true 10 critical decisions that the previous Chief of Staff for the 11 Army made 12 one was to develop a branch a cyber branch 13 One was to develop a schoolhouse but the second Why is that so critical Because young people can come 14 in and understand that they will work cyber their entire 15 career 16 rise all the way to commanding Army Cyber 17 critical piece and I think that as we mature across the 18 Department that's one that will be looked at very carefully 19 In terms of the second piece with regard to what we Someday they'll come as a second lieutenant and I think that's a 20 might do to continue to attract people to join and stay 21 within our force the work that the committee has done to 22 date to offer incentives to offer capabilities for us to 23 pay for certain skills like computer languages forensics 24 and malware and tool development critical to what we're 25 doing to look at direct commissioning to look at other Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 57 1 programs such as graduate school or scholarship for service 2 these are all individual programs that collectively show a 3 dynamic element of our force that I think is very very 4 attractive to our young people 5 Senator Gillibrand Now I'd like to ask Ms Anne Marie 6 White The Office of Environmental Management's mission 7 includes managing radioactive waste 8 ask you about the nearly 150 shipments of high-level liquid 9 nuclear waste from Canada that is being trucked through Therefore I want to 10 Buffalo and Syracuse New York to Savannah in South 11 Carolina 12 shipments based on data showing that trucking solid nuclear 13 waste can be done safely 14 form The agency you hope to lead approved these However this waste is in liquid 15 If God forbid there is an accident with just one 16 truck and a single drop gets into a city's water supply it 17 could completely destroy it whereas if powder spilled it 18 could be retrieved with limited contamination 19 seriously concerned that the Office of Environmental 20 Management approved these transports and I'm concerned that 21 the communities through which this waste may transit are not 22 fully informed and won't know how to handle a spill 23 I am Don't you think that before DOE transports liquid 24 nuclear waste for the first time we and the surrounding 25 communities should be fully prepared and ready to handle any Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 58 1 potential spills 2 Ms White I have not been fully briefed on that 3 particular issue but I can share with you that in my 4 experience stakeholder engagement stakeholder outreach all 5 of these things are fundamentally important to our ability 6 to complete our mission safely and cost effectively and I 7 can commit to you that I will work closely with your staff 8 this committee and all the interested stakeholder parties 9 because communication on these issues is very very 10 important 11 Senator Gillibrand Thank you Do you agree that the 12 properties of solid substances are different than those of 13 liquid substances 14 shipments should be halted until DOE completes a new 15 environmental impact statement that takes into account the 16 properties of liquid nuclear waste 17 Ms White And if you do do you think that these So there is a difference between liquid 18 and solid I agree with that absolutely What I can 19 commit to you is that if confirmed I will look into this 20 issue get a better understanding of the pathway so far and 21 the path forward and keep you informed 22 Senator Gillibrand Thank you 23 Dr Park one of the primary responsibilities of the 24 Deputy Administrator for Defense Nuclear Nonproliferation is 25 to lead DNN as it works to prevent nuclear and radiologic Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 59 1 proliferation and terrorism threats worldwide 2 President Trump waived sanctions on Iran under the JCPOA but 3 threatened not to do the same again unless Congress put 4 forth legislation to rewrite the agreement to meet his list 5 of demands 6 In January If the U S were to pull out of the JCPOA how would 7 that impact international nuclear safety and worldwide 8 nonproliferation efforts 9 Dr Park Senator keeping the region safe is one of 10 the key challenges for not only the U S but for its allies 11 and partners in fact globally and doing everything that 12 we can 13 challenge in providing the latest and the greatest 14 technologies to make sure we know what they're doing and we 15 are ready to partner with the other stakeholders closely 16 supporting State Department colleagues 17 ready to provide the best technologies to do our part at 18 NNSA 19 20 Out of the DNN office we have a very specific Senator Perdue But again we are presiding On behalf of Senator Inhofe Senator Graham 21 Senator Graham Thank you 22 Mr Park you mentioned in your opening testimony -- 23 and I think you're very qualified for your job so 24 congratulations on the nomination -- that one of the goals 25 is to make sure we do not proliferate nuclear weapons or Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 60 1 materials Is that correct 2 Dr Park Yes Senator 3 Senator Graham Are you aware of an agreement between 4 the United States and Russia entered into in the early 2000s 5 where we would dispose of 34 metric tons of excess weapons- 6 grade plutonium and they would do the same 7 Dr Park 8 Senator Graham 9 10 Yes Senator Okay And under that agreement -- and that's enough weapons-grade plutonium to make well over 10 000 warheads Are you aware of that 11 Dr Park Yes Senator 12 Senator Graham Okay Under that agreement the 13 United States was going to convert their weapons-grade 14 plutonium into MOX steel turn a sword into a plowshare 15 Are you familiar with that program 16 Dr Park Yes I'm aware 17 Senator Graham And the Russians were going to dispose 18 of their 34 metric tons through a fast breeder reactor 19 that correct 20 Dr Park 21 Senator Graham 22 agreement Yes In 2001 we entered into that Are you aware of that 23 Dr Park 24 Senator Graham 25 Is facility began Yes In 2007 construction of the MOX Are you aware of that Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 61 1 Dr Park Yes 2 Senator Graham In 2010 there was an amendment to the 3 original agreement where we would provide $400 million to 4 support Russian plutonium disposition and reaffirmed our 5 decision to turn our weapons-grade plutonium into MOX steel 6 You're aware of that 7 Dr Park 8 Senator Graham 9 Yes Are you aware that there's a MOX field plant in France 10 Dr Park Yes I'm aware 11 Senator Graham And this is where you take weapons- 12 grade plutonium dilute it down and make it commercial 13 fuel Is that correct 14 Dr Park 15 Senator Graham 16 One of the options yes Okay But the agreement was between us and Russia reaffirmed in 2010 17 In 2014 the Obama Administration made the decision to 18 stop the MOX program and put it in cold standby status 19 you familiar with that 20 Dr Park 21 Senator Graham 22 Are Some theories thereof Senator Yes Well and Congress rejected that by funding $345 million for continued MOX construction 23 So here is my question to you Will you go to Savannah 24 River site and come back and tell this committee how much of 25 the plan is completed in your opinion Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 62 1 2 Dr Park If confirmed I will make that one of the highest priorities in my early stages 3 Senator Graham All right The people on the ground 4 at Savannah River site say it's nearly 70 percent complete 5 and I'll show it to you 6 7 The Russians have basically withdrawn from this agreement Is that correct 8 Dr Park Yes 9 Senator Graham They suspended it two years ago And the reason they suspended it for 10 the committee is that we changed our decision to dispose of 11 plutonium through the MOX program to dilute and dispose 12 which would put it in New Mexico and the Russians said that 13 was not the deal 14 15 Have you talked to the New Mexico delegation about whether or not they would receive this material 16 Dr Park I'm not at a point where I can actually have 17 that type of conversation 18 Senator Graham 19 would urge you to do that 20 to what the contractor can do to make the MOX program 21 cheaper and more efficient 22 back with me about the viability of an alternative to dilute 23 and dispose All right Well they haven't -- I I would also urge you to listen I would like for you to get Would you do that 24 Dr Park If confirmed 25 Senator Graham Okay thank you Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 63 1 Do you agree with me that this agreement to dispose of 2 34 metric tons of weapons-grade plutonium was an historic 3 nonproliferation agreement 4 5 Dr Park It was certainly one of the most important events yes 6 Senator Graham I would say it's the most important 7 that I know of and it would be in our interest to maintain 8 this agreement if possible 9 Dr Park 10 11 Do you agree with that Yes Senator Graham Okay Since you're in charge of nonproliferation that's a good answer 12 Laughter 13 Senator Graham So what I'd like you to do is report 14 back to the committee can we do it cheaper is the 15 contractor willing to give maybe a fixed-price contract how 16 much of the program is actually complete in your estimation 17 is the dilute and dispose option viable how much does it 18 cost what kind of laws would you have to change to make 19 sure that happened and could they be changed 20 words give me a reasoned response to a new plan 21 agree to do that 22 Dr Park 23 Senator Graham 24 In other Would you If confirmed I'll do my best All right Thank you I'm sure you will and I think you're very qualified 25 To the committee we've talked about this a lot I Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 64 1 cannot believe that we're going to change course when the 2 facility is 70 percent complete pick up a new idea that's 3 been poorly vetted if vetted at all walk away from an 4 agreement that would dispose of plutonium on both sides 5 Russia and the United States that could create 10 000 more 6 heads if not disposed of without thinking this through and 7 I appreciate what this committee has done to reject this 8 arbitrary decision to stop production and construction 9 10 So thank you Mr Park look forward to working with you 11 Dr Park 12 Senator Perdue 13 Thank you Senator On behalf of Senator Inhofe Senator King 14 Senator King Thank you Mr Chairman 15 I want to pick up from Senator Sasse and Senator 16 Sullivan Our entire defense enterprise is designed for 17 peace 18 History tells us that the surest way to war is to not be 19 prepared 20 Harvard in 1940 called While England Slept and it was an 21 analysis of England's feckless non-preparation during the 22 '30s in the face of the German buildup of their war machine 23 and how that in fact in effect encouraged Hitler to 24 pursue his aggressive policies which led to the deaths of 25 55 million people over the course of the next five years It's designed to preserve the peace and deter war John F Kennedy wrote his senior thesis at Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 65 1 We are either at war now or on the brink of war and 2 the war is in cyber and it's a multi-front war and it's a 3 complex war 4 have a strategy for dealing with that war and especially we 5 don't have a strategy for deterring that war 6 As my colleagues have pointed out we don't Back when I was a kid the motto of the Strategic Air 7 Command was Peace is Our Profession because we had those 8 airplanes and those bombs in order to preserve the peace to 9 deter aggression In fact the deterrence theory kept us 10 out of a nuclear war an unthinkable nuclear war for some 75 11 years 12 My concern now is -- and I realize General Nakasone 13 you're the operational guy But we've got to confront this 14 issue and this isn't a criticism of the current 15 administration 16 it either 17 under attack and our adversaries feel no consequences 18 They fear no results 19 deal with that we are going to continue to be under attack 20 and what concerns me is that the attacks are going to 21 escalate and at the time we see a devastating attack on our 22 energy system our financial system our electrical grid 23 it's going to be then too late because we are going to be 24 severely damaged in this country not only through cyber but 25 the physical consequences will be catastrophic The prior administration did not confront As has been pointed out repeatedly today we are They fear no response And until we Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 66 1 So I hope that when you are confirmed and I believe 2 you will be that you will carry this message into the 3 highest councils of the United States Government 4 under an amendment passed to the National Defense Act in 5 2017 you are charged with a partial responsibility to 6 report to the Secretary of Defense to develop just the kind 7 of strategy and doctrine that we're talking about 8 9 In fact I don't have the Secretary of Defense sitting where you are today I don't have the President sitting where you are 10 today 11 there could not be as Senator Sasse said be a more 12 important issue before this body and I hope that you will 13 take upon yourself the responsibility not simply to be the 14 person who executes policy but the person who assists in the 15 formation of policy 16 and importance of deterrence and that this is at the essence 17 of our entire defense enterprise 18 19 But As a warrior you know best the power Will you carry that message back with some passion General 20 21 So you are bearing the brunt of this message General Nakasone Senator if confirmed I certainly will 22 Senator King I believe that there can be no more 23 important aspect of your job There are plenty of other 24 aspects of the job and we've talked about them today -- 25 when to split the two agencies when to change the two-hat Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 67 1 arrangement But I just can't stress enough how important 2 this is because as long as we maintain a strictly defensive 3 posture we are inviting aggression and that aggression is 4 going to continue 5 continue both in the realm of our democracy and our 6 political system but it's also going to continue in other 7 ways as well 8 of your mission when you're confirmed We saw it in 2016 It's going to So I deeply hope that you will make that part 9 One thing that I hope you will get back to us on -- and 10 this is a different subject and this would be subsequent to 11 your confirmation perhaps in the first six months or so -- 12 is an analysis or a report to us on the issues of 13 recruitment and retention in both Cyber Command and NSA 14 This is an area where people are the most important asset 15 and I fear that for a number of reasons whether it's the 16 slowness of the clearance process whether it's the way the 17 bureaucracy works we're not going to be able to recruit and 18 retain the crucial people that we need 19 is part of what you're going to pursue 20 General Nakasone 21 Senator King 22 Dr Park I appreciate your work Do you believe this I shall Senator if confirmed Thank you I'm over time but I 23 certainly believe we face serious proliferation risks 24 particularly in North Korea Iran 25 concern Pakistan I think is of You're coming into this job at a crucial period Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 68 1 and I'm delighted with your background and qualifications 2 and hope you will pursue it relentlessly 3 Dr Park 4 Senator King 5 Senator Perdue 6 Will do Senator Thank you Dr Park On behalf of Senator Inhofe Senator Cruz 7 Senator Cruz 8 Thank you for being here 9 Thank you Mr Chairman Thank you for your service and your testimony 10 General Nakasone in your judgment what do you see as 11 the greatest cyber terrorism or cyber security threats that 12 we're facing right now 13 General Nakasone Certainly Senator the discussions 14 we've had this morning with regards to the challenges the 15 vulnerabilities within our critical infrastructure are among 16 the top concerns that I have 17 Senator Cruz Some time ago I chaired a hearing in 18 the Science and Space Subcommittee of the Commerce Committee 19 on artificial intelligence 20 hearing on artificial intelligence 21 that hearing that one of the real threats as AI expands and 22 as more and more decision-making is done in sector after 23 sector of the economy through AI that cyber terrorism would 24 occur hacking into a big data dataset not denying service 25 not bringing the system down but far more subtlely simply It was the first congressional We heard testimony at Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 69 1 changing the data in the big data dataset so the AI 2 algorithms reached the wrong results 3 4 How serious do you assess threats of that kind and what can be done to secure against them 5 General Nakasone So Senator previously we thought 6 only of securing our networks and what we have certainly 7 learned is the fact that securing our data which I would 8 say is the coin of the realm -- our data is critical 9 of the dangers that are posed if our data is manipulated Think 10 whether or not it's in our financial our health our 11 national defense records very critical for what we're 12 doing 13 systems that go with it the code that underlies our 14 platforms the code that underlies the critical capabilities 15 that our Army Navy Air Force and Marines rely on But also think of the security of our weapons 16 In terms of what must be done I would offer that we 17 have to think more broadly in terms of a defense in-depth 18 strategy as we look to the future 19 challenges of AI 20 terrorist it's critical for us to be able to verify code or 21 to be able to have the capability to verify the integrity of 22 our data 23 You highlighted the Just as critical as AI might be for a So I do see this as one of the areas that both has 24 tremendous positive impacts for our nation but one that we 25 must be able to understand the limitations and the Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 70 1 consequences as well 2 Senator Cruz One of the challenges the services have 3 faced over time is attracting a talent pool with the 4 expertise with the background to compete and compete 5 effectively on a global stage particularly when you're 6 competing with companies in Silicon Valley that can offer 7 mountains of money 8 9 10 What can and should we be doing better to ensure that we have the top talent working to secure us from cyber threats 11 General Nakasone Senator I think it's important that 12 we play to our strengths 13 have found in Army Cyber is emphasizing our mission 14 have a unique mission 15 that has the responsibility for defending the nation 16 have a very very unique mission and I think that resonates 17 with young people today 18 The number-one strength that I We There's no one in the private sector We But I also think we have to have an approach to 19 recruiting people that is dynamic that tries different 20 ideas that has unique partnerships that is able to 21 leverage ideas that may not be traditional within our 22 military sphere and I think that's important because the 23 space that we operate in is changing every single day 24 why shouldn't our ideas change just as rapidly 25 Senator Cruz So Let's talk a moment about international Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 71 1 corporate espionage 2 Texas company who described significant concerns about 3 researchers who were Chinese nationals working with the firm 4 and potentially stealing American intellectual property and 5 what they were finding is that their research midway through 6 suddenly became the subject of Chinese patent applications 7 and the CEO I think has significant concerns that that's a 8 direct act of corporate espionage 9 I recently met with a CEO of a major How serious do you assess that threat and what can be 10 done to stop state actors from targeting American businesses 11 and companies 12 General Nakasone Senator I have recently read a lot 13 of material with regards to espionage and the stealing of 14 our secrets 15 the defense industrial base 16 be concerned based upon what our adversaries have planned 17 and what they've been able to do in the past 18 One area that we're very very focused on is We are concerned We should We have to look at a more comprehensive approach to 19 securing it 20 sector 21 we need to do to ensure the integrity of the networks and 22 the data that are out there 23 I would say is a very very important strategy that we must 24 pursue 25 What are the responsibilities of the private What needs to be written into a contract Senator Cruz What do These are all elements of what And one final question if I may for Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 72 1 Dr Park 2 Nuclear proliferation remains a serious threat How 3 seriously do you assess the threat of North Korean 4 proliferation to Iran or to other hostile actors and what 5 should we be doing to prevent that 6 Dr Park On a scale of 1 to 10 probably 11 This is 7 one of those important challenges that we have to work with 8 international partners to address 9 it's got global implications and we need to do everything 10 possible to contain the situation and reverse their nuclear 11 development efforts It's both regional but 12 Senator Cruz 13 Senator Inhofe 14 Senator Blumenthal 15 Senator Blumenthal 16 I thank all three of you for your service to our 17 Thank you presiding Thank you Senator Thanks Mr Chairman nation 18 General when I questioned Admiral Rogers -- and I join 19 you in saluting his service to our nation -- about the 20 indictment that was returned just a couple of weeks ago 21 against 13 Russians and three Russian entities he professed 22 that he had not read it or at least as of that time had not 23 read it 24 you have read it 25 that it is profoundly alarming and chilling as a picture of When you and I spoke yesterday you indicated that I think you would join me in the view Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 73 1 Soviet warfare -- I'm sorry Russian warfare against the 2 United States in the style of the Cold War as conducted by 3 the Soviet Union 4 country who traveled freely 5 experts in the Internet agency the Internet Research Agency 6 that they built they spent millions of dollars through 7 Russian oligarchs who are associates of Vladimir Putin 8 They called it informational warfare 9 warfare 10 11 They sent spies in effect to this They hired thousands of They used the term Would you agree with me that that kind of attack on our nation is an act of war 12 General Nakasone Senator as we consider an act of 13 war at the end that is a policy decision 14 that in terms of if I was confirmed what I would need to do 15 is offer a series of options of capabilities that senior 16 policymakers might consider in terms of responding or not 17 responding 18 Senator Blumenthal I would offer And what kind of response is 19 appropriate to that kind of information warfare 20 kind of response necessary in the cyber domain 21 General Nakasone Isn't some As we consider a response obviously 22 the decision rests with the executive branch and or Congress 23 in terms of what that response will be 24 respond in the cyber domain or another domain I think the 25 most important thing is we want the behavior to change Whether or not we Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 74 1 Senator Blumenthal We want them to pay a price 2 General Nakasone 3 want the behavior to change 4 Senator Blumenthal We want them to pay a price We And Admiral Rogers admitted freely 5 that their behavior is not changing right now in essence 6 because they are paying no cost for this kind of continued 7 meddling in our democratic process 8 9 10 General Nakasone Would you agree Certainly and that corresponds with what the Director of National Intelligence has recently said in open testimony as well Senator 11 Senator Blumenthal 12 General Nakasone 13 Senator Blumenthal So you would agree Yes Let me ask Dr Park in your 14 responsibilities for preventing and reversing proliferation 15 of weapons of mass destruction your responsibilities would 16 include chemical weapons 17 conducted a chemical weapons attack that seriously harmed 18 and probably killed a number of its own people 19 Wednesday the New York Times reported on a yet-to-be- 20 released United Nations report that links North Korea's 21 shipments of supplies to Russia that can be used for its 22 production of chemical weapons 23 24 As you know Syria recently On I'm going to ask that that article be made a part of the record 25 Senator Inhofe Without objection Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 75 1 The information referred to follows 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 76 1 Senator Blumenthal Do you believe that the continued 2 use of chemical weapons in Syria poses a threat to our 3 service members there 4 action against both Syria and North Korea if the equipment 5 and instruments and supplies are being supplied by North 6 Korea to Syria 7 Dr Park And do you believe we have to take Senator in terms of what we should do in 8 terms of taking any actions that's up to the appropriate 9 entities within the government 10 On the use of chemical weapons it's a serious concern 11 Senator Blumenthal 12 Well will you recommend action that can be taken against North Korea 13 Dr Park We will provide as much information and data 14 available for the decision-makers to use to take appropriate 15 actions 16 smuggling efforts throughout the world by working with our 17 international partners and to that extent we will collect 18 and process the advice of the decision-makers 19 The DNN does provide information related to Senator Blumenthal Well I'm concerned that I'm not 20 hearing from you the same alarm about Syria using chemical 21 weapons as you expressed in your advance policy questions 22 about ISIS using chemical weapons 23 Dr Park My only constraint is because of the role 24 that I would be having it's not related to actually what I 25 call actionable side of what the U S Government might do Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 77 1 with this type of information But I do share your concerns 2 to the highest degree possible 3 Senator Blumenthal Thank you 4 Thanks Mr Chairman 5 Senator Inhofe 6 Senator Cotton 7 Senator Cotton 8 Thank you all 9 General I want to speak at a high level about the 10 threats we face from emerging technologies especially from 11 China 12 world would have been very different in 1945 if the Soviet 13 Union had held a nuclear monopoly and not the United States 14 Rather than use nuclear weapons to end World War II and then 15 to extend the security umbrella around the rest of the 16 world the Soviet Union would have used that weapon to 17 dominate subjugate or annihilate its adversaries Thank you Thank you Mr Chairman Winston Churchill said once that the fate of the 18 His point there was that there are certain kinds of 19 technologies that are so revolutionary so breakthrough that 20 there really is no effective counter if you don't have the 21 immediate technology in hand 22 against 23 Some you can fight back So for instance in 1939-1940 when the Finns were 24 fighting off the Soviet Union they had very few if any 25 anti-armor weapons They invented the Molotov cocktail Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 78 1 named sarcastically after the Soviet foreign minister 2 That's just what it is 3 into the exhaust of a Soviet tank 4 made though is that the nuclear weapon that the United 5 States had perfected and the Soviet Union did not was so 6 radically different that if the Soviet Union had had it 7 they would have used it to either subjugate or annihilate 8 the rest of their adversaries The Molotov cocktail was thrown The point that Churchill 9 Looking at artificial intelligence and quantum 10 computing how would you rank that threat to the United 11 States 12 it especially China is it more like an incremental 13 breakthrough or a novel innovation like the tank or like 14 precision-guided munitions or is it more like nuclear 15 technology 16 And if perfected by our adversaries before we have General Nakasone Simply put Senator I would 17 characterize it as what you may roughly know as a revolution 18 in military affairs 19 adversaries if they get to artificial intelligence if they 20 get to quantum computing before we're there 21 it's so critical that we continue our research continue our 22 work towards it continue our applications 23 Senator Cotton I mean this is a game-changer for our This is why Is it the kind of thing though that 24 if you had a breakthrough -- again the breakthrough would 25 likely come from China -- that it would either substantially Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 79 1 impair or even completely over-match our other advantages in 2 the air and space in the maritime domain or in the nuclear 3 domain 4 that we have against a threat like China 5 It would essentially neutralize those advantages General Nakasone I think also Senator to agree with 6 your statement I think it would also provide a capability 7 for their economic element that would be incredibly powerful 8 that would certainly give them a leap ahead 9 Senator Cotton So that would be a very bad thing 10 What would be your main suggestions to ensure that does not 11 happen that we don't let China race ahead of us in the 12 struggle to master artificial intelligence and quantum 13 computing 14 General Nakasone We must continue our research we 15 must continue our funding of it we must continue the 16 development of our young people for science technology 17 engineering mathematics 18 think are important to include the work that's being done 19 today by others in the private sector to raise concern and 20 to raise awareness of what needs to be done 21 Senator Cotton Those are all elements that I How can you presuming your 22 confirmation compete with the American private sector and 23 China whether it's the so-called private sector or their 24 government-sponsored enterprises for the very best talent 25 Obviously you can't pay nearly as much as what private- Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 80 1 sector employers in the United States can pay or what the 2 Chinese government is willing to pay to master this 3 technology 4 very best talent which in this domain is probably the 5 number-one asset 6 So how can you compete to make sure you get the General Nakasone Senator I think it begins with 7 again emphasizing the mission 8 would want to work at a place like the National Security 9 Agency or U S Cyber Command 10 What is of appeal that you It's the defense of the nation 11 And then I think the second piece of it is you have to 12 have the outreach 13 Where are the academic breakthroughs happening 14 make sure that we have a presence there 15 Where is this research taking place How do we And the third point is obviously to be able to 16 cultivate that talent 17 we need the top talent that's willing to come and to work on 18 these very very important missions for our nation 19 Senator Cotton It's not that we need everybody but Okay Thank you General We'll have 20 time in the future at the Intelligence Committee as well 21 but I do want to say here in this public setting that one 22 very important part of the mission at the NSA that I hope 23 you'll prioritize is the protection of our own systems and 24 our own information against the loss to malevolent actors 25 either through negligence or through espionage Thank you Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 81 1 Senator Inhofe Senator Warren 2 Senator Warren Thank you Mr Chairman 3 Thank you to our witnesses for your willingness to 4 serve 5 General Nakasone the organization you were nominated 6 to lead Cyber Command was given the job of countering ISIS 7 efforts to use the Internet to recruit to spread its 8 ideology to move money to coordinate its forces 9 Deputy Secretary of Defense Bob Work described CYBERCOM's Former 10 efforts to stop ISIS as dropping cyber bombs 11 by public reporting we were at least somewhat successful in 12 this effort 13 And judging But while we were focused on ISIS Russia was using 14 this same technology to undermine our democracy here at 15 home 16 expensive or technologically sophisticated effort 17 unit of hackers that were amplified by a troll factory in 18 Moscow 19 From what I understand this was not an especially It was a And yet U S defenses were totally inadequate General what can we learn from our operations against 20 ISIS that we can apply to efforts to protect and defend 21 against Russian style cyber attacks moving forward 22 General Nakasone The first thing I would offer 23 Senator what we have learned in the battle against ISIS is 24 that rapidly you have to be able to change your 25 methodologies We started slow against ISIS and didn't have Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 82 1 a lot of tremendous success early on 2 picked up as we continued to operate in cyberspace 3 understand the intelligence understand the targeting 4 understand the capabilities that had to be developed 5 But then the momentum The second thing that I would offer Senator that I 6 have personally learned is the power of information 7 you provide impact to an adversary that no longer holds 8 geographic terrain 9 able to work particularly in support of U S Central 10 Command and U S Operations Command the task force 11 bringing this ability to amplify a message to an adversary 12 is able to counteract what they're able to do 13 Senator Warren How do It's a messaging component that we were Thank you General But You know it's 14 deeply disturbing that you start your answer by saying it's 15 important that we act with speed when we're sitting here 16 more than a year after it has become widely known that 17 Russia hacked into American election systems to try to 18 influence the election and we still have not taken 19 aggressive action 20 I understand that the Department of Homeland Security 21 is the lead agency for election security But General if 22 confirmed you will command the most elite cyber security 23 professionals in our government and a key part of your 24 mission will be to defend the United States and its 25 interests against cyber attacks of significant consequence Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 83 1 As a result I'm concerned that an attack on our 2 democratic processes meets this definition of significant 3 So General if confirmed what are you prepared to do to 4 make sure that the U S is prepared to defend against 5 Russian style cyber attacks designed to interfere in the 6 2018 and 2020 elections 7 General Nakasone Senator if confirmed my initial 8 actions would be what are the options that I might be able 9 to provide to the Secretary of Defense and the President 10 that might be utilized when a decision is made to counteract 11 what an adversary has done to our nation 12 13 Senator Warren So you're telling me we don't even have a decision to respond yet 14 General Nakasone Is that what you just said Senator what I said is that in 15 terms of being confirmed with regards to the authorities 16 that I would have that are existing today would be to 17 provide a series of actions upon which the Secretary of 18 Defense or President could leverage in response to an 19 adversary's actions 20 Senator Warren Well I think it's clear that we need 21 to be vigilant to prevent this from ever happening again 22 And if confirmed we're going to need you General to help 23 lead this fight 24 Let me ask one more question about cyber readiness In 25 the 2017 Defense authorization bill this committee directed Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 84 1 the Pentagon to elevate Cyber Command as an independent 2 stand-alone command and gave you some unique service-like 3 authorities to train and equip your own force 4 other combatant command that has similar authorities is the 5 Special Operations Command 6 grow that responsibility and to begin effectively executing 7 on those authorities 8 General I'm concerned that we don't have the luxury of 9 waiting years for CYBERCOM to be able to do the same The only But it took SOCOM many years to Given the cyber threats that we face 10 So let me ask if confirmed what is your plan for 11 maturing the CYBERCOM operation to accomplish the functions 12 that the military services currently provide and what does 13 your timeline look like 14 if he can have just a little bit to answer here 15 General Nakasone I realize we're out of time but Senator I think that we should 16 begin with what have we learned from SOCOM in understanding 17 how they've been able to utilize these service-like 18 authorities 19 transfer to U S Cyber Command if confirmed that I could 20 leverage 21 What are the things that we'd be able to In terms of a timeline I can't give you a timeline in 22 terms of my experience to date 23 say I would need to assess if confirmed to come back and 24 have that discussion with the committee 25 Senator Warren That's something I would Well I can't underline the urgency of Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 85 1 the moment enough We know that the Russians hacked us in 2 2016 and they're coming back after us in 2018 3 let the perfect be the enemy of the good here 4 move We can't We've got to 5 Thank you Mr Chairman 6 Senator Inhofe 7 Senator Donnelly 8 Senator Donnelly 9 I want to thank all the families who are here with us 10 Thank you Thank you Mr Chairman today Dr Park Lieutenant General Nakasone Ms White 11 General it is quite clear to me that the Russians are 12 using cyberspace as a cheap and easy way to try and tear our 13 country apart 14 elections in 2016 and they're working just as hard to do it 15 again this upcoming November 16 Director of National Intelligence the Commander of U S 17 Cyber Command expect we'll see continued cyber disruptions 18 not only of our elections but of our military our IT our 19 businesses and our country 20 They worked really hard to disrupt our Many sources including the The Russians are landing clean shots against us in 21 cyberspace and we don't seem to be on the field 22 look at this not only are the Russians a concern but North 23 Korea Iran China and other non-state actors like ISIS 24 25 So as we General Nakasone if confirmed how do you plan to thwart these efforts What is the battle plan to fight Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 86 1 back 2 General Nakasone So Senator in terms of a multitude 3 of adversaries I would begin with if confirmed we'd have 4 to look at a series of options that would need to be 5 developed We are working now today -- 6 Senator Donnelly 7 options lined up right now 8 General Nakasone So for some adversaries yes we Senator Donnelly What options are we using against 9 do 10 11 Do you have any of that series of the Russians 12 General Nakasone So in this forum given the nature 13 of it I'll defer from that just given the unclassified 14 element 15 Rogers spoke to on Tuesday that was being worked 16 current position that's not something that I'm responsible 17 for at this time 18 the early areas that I would look into But that's one of the areas that I think Admiral In my But if confirmed that's obviously one of 19 Senator Donnelly 20 haven't been confirmed yet 21 anyone in regards to here's the battle plan we're looking to 22 take against the Russians to move forward against them 23 General Nakasone Have you yet been instructed -- you Have you been instructed by Senator in my current position it 24 is not one of the areas that I'm focused on at Army Cyber 25 I'd have to defer that to Admiral Rogers the current Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 87 1 commander 2 Senator Donnelly Well as we look at this I want to 3 ask you another question about plans to fight back against 4 these threats and that's what we were talking about 5 you have any offensive plans that you've put together not 6 only thwarting the attack but going on offense 7 in the position yet but have you started to put together 8 any plans of your own from watching everything that's gone 9 on to take the fight to them as opposed to just trying to 10 Do You're not play defense at every corner 11 General Nakasone Senator we certainly have a series 12 of offensive plans 13 there are plans that have been developed 14 I will not go into them here today but Senator Donnelly Are we communicating clearly to our 15 adversaries in a language that they understand that the 16 costs of these actions will outweigh the benefits that 17 they're receiving 18 analysis I think it's overwhelmingly on the benefit side 19 for the Russians and for others 20 to indicate to our adversaries that you know of that there 21 will be costs that the costs will be coming that there is 22 a plan and that we plan to move forward with it 23 At this time in the cost versus benefit General Nakasone Has there been any effort Senator I know of no plan yet 24 again with my responsibilities I would defer to others 25 that are working on the Russian piece of it sir But Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 88 1 Senator Donnelly Do you know of any clear plan at the 2 present time guiding how we respond to cyber attacks by the 3 Russians or by anybody else either nationally or within 4 DOD 5 General Nakasone Senator again in my current 6 responsibilities not having the responsibility for Russia 7 I'm not aware of that but that is one that should be asked 8 of those who are working on it Senator 9 Senator Donnelly Dr Park you have done many 10 extraordinary things in your career 11 nonproliferation 12 You met in the past with my predecessor Senator Lugar who 13 has been such an extraordinary leader on this during his 14 career here in the Senate 15 visited a facility named after him in Tbilisi in Georgia 16 trying to work on efforts to protect our country from the 17 transmission of nuclear materials 18 You've worked on You've worked on nuclear disarmament I mentioned to you that I So the question I have for you sir is I'd like to get 19 your thoughts on how to strengthen our nonproliferation and 20 our nuclear deterrent efforts 21 Dr Park So Senator quickly I appreciate the 22 support Senator Lugar's work has been the foundation for 23 what we have today and because of his leadership we're 24 able to create the partnerships that are meaningful 25 international partners and we can sustain and at the same Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com 89 1 time we continue to push the envelope of science and 2 technology side of what we do 3 nonproliferation efforts 4 and we focus on the verification side of our business 5 through R D efforts Verification is a key to You have to be able to verify So we keep pushing that area 6 Senator Donnelly Thank you 7 Mr Chairman thank you sir 8 Senator Inhofe 9 Senator Reed do you have any further comments Thank you Senator 10 Senator Reed No sir 11 Senator Inhofe 12 Thank you very much I say to our three witnesses 13 Ms White you got off pretty easy there 14 We thank you very much for your patience and for your All right 15 testimony and for what you've contributed to this nation so 16 far 17 And we are adjourned 18 Whereupon at 11 20 a m the hearing was adjourned 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Alderson Court Reporting 1-800-FOR-DEPO www aldersonreporting com This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu