LISA CHE LISA HOWARD CHE INTERVIEW WITH CHE GUEVARA Havana Cuba - February 1964 Major Guevara since the success of the revolution the Cuban economy according to all reports has seriously deteriorated in every sector industrial output the vegetable crop the sugar harvest which last year hit a low 3 5 million tons How do you account for this economic regression This is not a question this is an assertion Ybu must first destroy the assertion and then go and answer the question The assertion that all aspects of the Cuban economy have deteriorated during the course of the revolution is wrong The industrial output has increased since 1959 and it could have increased even more had it not been adversely influenced by the sugar industry which has in fact decreased The industrial output has increased at an annual rate of 7 percent this does not include sugar however And the increase for 1963 and as estimated for 196 will be still greater For 1963 it amounts to 10 per cent and the 196M figure will be higher And the sugar output will increase too In the agricultural field we have had some problems but not overwhelming The production of sugar - which is our fundamental product we are still mono-cultivators to a certain extent has decreased considerably This is due to a bad sugar policy we used to follow and to the extraordinary draught of these past two years However the same does not apply to other aspects of our agriculture and we have had partial successes Cotton is now a reality in Cuba as is kenaf both products which were previously unknown here I think the whole analysis has to be centered on sugar As you said the sugar harvest has been very poor not 3 500 000 tons but 3 800 000 tons the lowest in many years But already this year it will be higher we still cannot say how much nor do we expect a substantial increase because we have also had the cyclone which has adversely affected our crops but still there will be an increase And from now on there will be a continuous increase The industrial output in general as I told you has substantially increased and this is a major achievement if you consider the severe blockade to which Cuba has been subjected How seriously is the economic blockade affecting the Cuban economy I cannot give you an exact figure of the effect the blockade has had on Cuba and one of the reasons is that it has had both negative and positive effects One of the positive effects is the development of the national conscience and of the fighting spirit of the Ouban people in order to overcome difficulties Che Guevara Che contil LISA HOWARD CHE 2 But if you think that all Euban equipment almost the entire Cuban industrial machinery some of which of an exclusive character used to come from the United States and that in addition Cuba was the receiver of all the used machines from the United States whose capitalists sent those machines to Cuba to accumulate more profits and that many of the product lines have been discontinued by now you may get an idea of the extreme effort required to overcome the blockade Figures cannot be given I don't know them it meant a serious drawback Obviously But it has at the same time been a positive lessen for us and it has taught us how to manage our economy in the future I think this more or less answers your question Russia is pouring a great deal of money into the Cuban economy each day Now what would happen to the economy of the Island if that aid suddenly stopped These statements of daily amounts are typical of the American way of thinking and the concept of investment perhaps reflects somehow the idea the Americans have of aid American aid to Latin American States eventually reverts to these very I countries In our case there has been what can be called aid ' namely pardoning of certain trade debts and long term loans granted on a purely commercial basis as for the rest there are normal trade relations between the two countries Cuba no longer has the United States as its major import export customer the Soviet Union has taken its place If with your question as to what would happen should the Soviet aid stop you refer to all of our exchange then I have to answer you that the life of our country would be paralyzed because for example all of our oil supply comes from the Soviet Union and these are almost four million tons But this is not aid this is trade exchange on a basis of absolute equality and we pay with our sugar and other products The aid extended to us during those years of poor crOps was sur hx in excess of exports from the Soviet Union against imports from us But now with the increase in the sugar price this has considerably diminished Our terms of exchange are fairly balanced even though the Soviet Union continues to give us a certain trade imbalance And then there is the aid in form of investments which are considerable and which if they were to discontinue would paralyze our industrial develOp- ment Therefore it has to be stressed that the term aid is not the most accurate definition of our relationship with the Soviet Union since what we maintain is a relationship of equality between Socialist countries who have a trade exchange which is mutually profitable Che Guevara LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE Many critics of the Cuban regime believe that one really flourishing industry in Cuba is the Communist propaganda efforts to hide the difference between the Cuban image and the Cuban truth What is your reaction to that Major Guevara I feel it would be better for me to ask you what your opinion is Because I have my image of the revolution And my image could perhaps be deformed by the position I hold People in America our America and in general all over the world have a different image of the revolution When they come here the two images confront each other and then comes the shock But this shock strikes those who come from out side Cuba We here used to criticizing and to critize all that is bad and to seeing with a deep feeling of criticism the development of the revolution we do not always realize the progress we have made and it is you those who visit us who see from time to time and bring to our attention the progress we have made And this is why I feel that I as an interviewer should ask ygu this question Major Guevara much external evidence indicates that the Marxist system of economics simply doesn't work doesn't pro- vide bountiful life for its people After M7 years of trying the Soviet Union still cannot feed and house and clothe their peOple properly Do you think it possible that the Marxist system Just doesn't provide the proper incentive to create a really high level of productivity You have a tendency of making assertions in form of questions Once again I have first to destroy the assertion in order to then answer the question You state that it has been proven that Marxism or the Marxist system does not provide for the people's well-being I think it's Just the Opposite If we take as a comparison the United States then it is true the living standard of any other nation is lower but if you speak of the American way of life and that of the free world you must take into account in that free world for example the 200 million people who in Latin America die of hunger or of diseases or who do not reach adulthood because they die of starvation as children All these people contribute to the economic wealth of the United States who exploits them in one form or another The same happens in Africa and it happens in Asia too And Marxism brings all this to an end Obviously in Cuba today there are many people who are more restricted now than they were before but for many more people the situation is much better now than it was before And you can see this yourself when you travel in the interior if you meet our peasants and if you know how our sugar workers used to live And then perhaps you will get to the root of your question At the moment being besieged by American imperialism we cannot offer our people all the things we would like to but we have given them all we could all we have been capable of giving so far and under equal conditions beginning with the minister Che Guevara Che cont LISA HOWARD 4 down to any government employee and this is the main reason why the people continue to fight for their liberation North Vietnam has been liberated and yet South Vietnam did not find the American way of life any better and it rose in rebellion took arms and is defeating American inter vention Try and think whether there is not something behind this that incites the people to fight and whether it is not because Marxism offers a better life to the people Major I remember once QQIA diplomatic party was quite brilliant and he had nothing to fear from any of Muest ions LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD I saw him at a diplomatic party once last year and recall saying to him he was quite brilliant he had nothing to fear from any of my questions The United States Government is quite aware of the problems in Latin America and through the Alianza is trying very hard to lift the standard of living of the people throughout the Hemisphere Now if the ruling classes agreed to make land reform and tax reforms and if the living standard were raised won't the message of the Cuban revolution lose its effectiveness Then I say the message of the Cuban revolution and Marx ism will lose its meaning Certainly it would lose it immediately The message of the Ouban revolution has a meaning because through its own gravi- tation imperialism can only make very lukewarm reforms which do not go to the heart of the matter If all of Latin America were freed from imperialist domination imperialism would face very serious problems The foundation of imperialism is the domination of Latin American countries through unequal exchange the exchange of manufactured goods for raw materials the taking over of all decisive positions in each government through the national oligarchies subservient to imperialism If all this changed imperialism would have lost its force It would then face the general crisis of capitalism in other words the crisis from the working class within its own country - the working class that is now being exploited although its exploitation is not so evident since it is transferred to Latin America Africa and Asia And then the conflict would be directly within the boundaries of the United States And consequently the message of the Guban revolution would lose all of its importance But it would not be needed either because this is precisely what we desire for all our people in Latin America And once we would have achieved all that there would be no further need to launch messages that would no longer have a meaning So in our desire for these reforms we agree Che Guevara 5 CHE The true reforms The access of the peOple to power we agree LISA HOWARD Does Major Guevara feel this can come about through an evolu tionary process or must it come about through violent revo lutionary upheavals CHE That depends always on the reactionary classes who refuse to give up power to yield privileges inherent to power Where the force of the people would be such that it could oblige the reactionary classes to give up power by peaceful means it will be done so This is much better for all Where the re actionary classes try to maintain the power by all means the spark will be ignited regardless of the will or the desire of anyone and it will burn in Latin America or in parts of Latin America and eventually the people will reach the power LISA HOWARD When Cuba produced raw materials for the United States and had to buy her manufactured goods from us you called this the worst form of economic colonialism Now again Guba is assigned a predominantly agricultural role within the Soviet economic system Is this suddenly acceptable CHE No this is not correct In the first place it must be stated that it is not only the exchange of raw materials for manufact ured goods that leads to imperialism but also the whole complex of mechanisms attached to this exchange pattern Cuba used to sell sugar to the United States and in turn it received materials But that sugar sold to the United States was transformed into dollars which also went to the United States furthermore the materials we received were mostly for American factories which manufactured products that were sold here con verted into dollars and also went to the United States This was one of the aspects of imperialist domination of our country Now with regard to the direct exchange of raw materials for manufactured goods we have actually had thorough talks with the Soviet Union resulting in a Special price for sugar This is an obvious demonstration of the fact that Socialist relations have an entirely different basis The price paid by the Soviet Union for our sugar makes it possible for us to import suffi cient machinery for the development of our industry and thus to become an agrarian-industrial country rather than an exclusive eXporter of raw materials LISA HOWARD When you were fighting in the Hills of the Sierra Maestra did you foresee that the revolution would take so radical a turn CHE I had a feeling that it would Of course the counse and the very violent development of the revolution could not be foreseen nor was the Marxist-Leninist formulation of the revolution fore seeable This was the result of a very long process which you I know very well we had a more or less vague idea to solve the problems which as we could see so clearly affected the peasants who fought with us as well as the problems of the workers we knew But it would be very long to recount the whole process of the transformation of our ideas Che Guevara CHE cont LISA HOWARD LISA HOWARD LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD 6 Now you must be sure of one thing and that is that the United States had a very important part in the development of our re- volution because of the way in which they acted toward our country Or maybe it is more precise to say in the accelleration of our revolution The participation of the United States in the acti va on of the revolution in such violent and concentrated form important factor Now the outcome of the revolution is only natural It is the accomplishment of a people who is beginning to solve its problems and who finds naturally that the only possible way out is Socialism with the power in its hands and the capability of directing and using it for the people's well-being There is a conviction in the United States that Major Guevara was one of the most refusal influences in the revolution and that he pulled Dr Castro to the left that what happened here was partially his blueprint Does he accept or deny that In the United States as well as in many other countries I have for many years been given the honor of being considered the brain of the revolution the mastermind the man of the left the power behind the throne Personally this does not bother me at all But my honesty as a revolutionary a born honesty obliges me to confess that the top leftist in Cuba is Fidel Castro and that the greatest danger the United States faces here if there is any danger in us is Fidel and not me In the Hills of the Sierra Maestra when Fidel Castro said he was not a Communist did you believe that he was not a Communist and that he would not become a Communist I knew he was not a Communist but I believe I also knew that he would become Communist Just as I at that time was not a Communist but I also knew that I would become one within a short time and that the natural development of the revolution would lead all of us to Marxism Leninism I cannot say that it was a definite and conscious knowledge but it was an intuition the result of an examination the assessment of the development of the attitude of the United States and the manner in which they acted at that time against us and in favor of Batista Then you are suggesting that the actions of the United States Government contributed to the Communization of the Cuban revo lution Not as much as that To the acceleration of the process and to that violent confrontation that has occurred The natural development all over the world leads to Socialism This is inde pendent of the United States' actions It has been said that Communism is inimical to the Ouban tempera ment Do you find it hard the Cubans to accept the rigid discipline of a Communist society Che Guevara CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD LISA HOWARD 7 That is one of the made up ideas about Communism Communism is made by the peeple and the people build it to suit their image The singularities of our ethnic social and cultural structure pervade our way of building and modelling the new society Moreover discipline is not something alien to the peoples it appears at a certain stage of development When there is only one harvest a year and the crop depends on wind and sun and rain time has no importance and discipline al- most does not count But when you have to follow a certain pace of deve10pment when you have industries and every minute has its value in gold then discipline comesautomatically And in our process of development and industrialization of the country discipline has by its own weight settled in the coun- try It's a vital need and the people so understand and adapt themselves to it It has appeared to us viewing the Cuban scene that two of your chief problems are this difficulty in disciplining the people to a Communist State and a kind of strangling bureau cracy Do you feel these are two great problems Our two main problems are imperialism and imperialism After that all other questions can be tackled But let me now answer your question Bureaucracy is a problem it's the product of a society that has to develop rapidly with cadres that were not prepared for the development work Do you think it possible that this problem bureaucracy is intrinsic to the Communist system No I was trying to tell you that Bureaucracy was inherited by us as an aspect of the Cuban past It exists in the United States too It is quite possible that at a certain moment in the develOpment of Socialism bureaucracy increases exces- sively maybe I am not a theoretician to elaborate on this point but it is obvious that bureaucracy exists in capitalism as well as in the Socialist system In both of them Really I found the bureaucracy absolutely strangling You have no idea how long it takes to get a paper What kind of paper Any I think that one of the problems is that the people in Dr Guevara's position Major Guevara Dr Castro has often expressed his desire to normalize relations between Cuba and the United States Do you desire such a normalization of relations On the basis of principles of course And I would probably desire it more than anyone for it is the industry that suffers most from the blockade Industry and transport are perhaps the sectors of production which are hit hardest by the blockade Transport has already freed itself but not We industry And therefore on the basis of principles and total equality normalization of relations would seem ideal to us Che Guevara LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE 8 Major Guevara do you think a resumption of diplomatic re lations between Cuba dntithe United States would be very bene- ficial to the Cuban economy Diplomatic relations And commercial Well it would be beneficial Wee - - Major Guevara what do you think a resumption of diplomatic and commercial relations between cube and the United States would mean to the Cuban economy Of course at the present moment a resumption of relations could only be done gradually Our main export products have been detoured to other markets but obviously it would always be easier for us to purchase products especially spareparts manufactured by the United States from a source closer to us But in any event at the moment it does not look as though this will be a reality in the near future and we can also perfectly well manage without these relations Isn't it rather difficult when your supply line is 7 000 or 7 500 miles away It is difficult And it was extremely difficult in the be- ginning and it complicated things very much But it is im- proving gradually Soon we will be able to create reserves and then with our deposits here in Cuba we will be able to re- move most of the difficulties As time passes the distance is less of a problem for our supplies And also the relation- ship becomes closer and from year to year our needs will be better known so that our suppliers can prepare the shipments adequately in advance and year after year this shows favorably in the Cuban economy Wbuld you assess for us how effective has the United States blockade been This looks like an invitation almost to a leak of confidential information right we have recognized the importance of the blockade We have also announced with the same calm that the blockade would not prevent us from advancing But it is difficult to be more specific and it is not very con- venient either After all in spite of your good intentions we are still enemies And the enemy should only know general ities about the other party Then I assume that you are telling me that the economic blockade has been very effective You have assumed quite a few things during our talk Among other things that Communism has no influence at all that it retards roductivity that th blockade has been very effect- ive and your last assumption that bureaucracy is strangling Che Guevara Che cont LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE 9 At the same time you have told me that Cuba looks a little different now from what it looked like when we had our last interview here I can also assume that you have noticed a progress in the Cuban revolution and I could ask you then If everything here is that bad and if the blockade is so effective why then does the Cuban revolution advance I've often been told that the most frank man on the Island the most candid man is Che Guevara so perhaps he will tell us how effective the blockade has been I repeat that I cannot tell you that If I gave you a figure I would lie no matter what the figure would be But I have also told you that the blockade has had positive as well as negative aspects But even supposing that I were the most frank person and I don't believe that I should get special credit for this here in Cuba where we are all frank but even supposing this there are times when in all frankness one must say that one cannot answer certain questions And this also is frankness Cuba has recently purchased busses from London you are nego- tiating for ships from Spain I understand there is an economic mission in Switzerland Does this represent for you a fundamental change in the Cuban economy Are you referring to a change in economics or in the economic policy I'm talking about a change in the economic policy I think not there has been a change in the economic policy of certain countries a certain split of the monolithic unity of the free world and there is more trade with Cuba now Our commercial dispositions have always been the same on the same bases In other words a merchandise is a merchandise and it should be to the mutual benefit of both buyer and seller On this basis we have traded with the whole world including the United States even after we severed our relations The United States have exerted great Influence so that certain goods would not be sold to us and you are well aware of the discus- sions concerning the busses sold by the Leyland company But actually it is not we who have changed Certain aspects of international politics have changed I don't know whether we could have anything to do with this We don't think we are that important Does he feel that these purchases represent a failure of the United States blockade Yes A serious failure That depends on how it affects the American ego Che Guevara 10 LISA HOWARD Does he feel LISA HOWARD aJor Guevara do you believe that this trade with the West which you are now engaged in will continue and perhaps expand in the near future CHE Yes I hope so Naturally it does not depend on our wishes alone but also on the wishes of the people with whom we trade today But I have hopes that it will continue and that we_nl shall enter a new era as far as relations with Cuba are con- an European countries have realized that it is important to have relations with all countries of the world and that Guba is a good market and a market that is reliable as well as stable in other words lasting LISA HOWARD I would like him to talk a little more about that Can you tell us more on the subject CHE At the beginning of the revolution even before we had serious problems with the United States we had sent several delega- tions to different European countries The general reaction at that time was one of abstention People had no confidence in our capacity to survive And this sentiment grew stronger with the deepening of our controversies with the United States And there was a time when our exchanges were decreasing more and more every year However after Playa Giron and later especially after the October crisis we witnessed a change gradual first and then more accelerated in the attitude of the European countries toward the Cuban revolution We are convinced of the permanency of our revolutionary government of the permanency of the revolution and it seems that this has transcended in all our actions and in our capacity to stand up in dealing with businessmen of other Capitalistic countries so they have decided to maintain relations which were tradi- tional with Cuba in many instances And all this makes us hope that these relations will not only continue but that they will expand in the future And we ve a great interest_in_thing W have for instance closed deals for the acquisition of complete plants with several coun tries with France with England with Japan and we feel that in the future we can make this type of transaction with greater security because in the past there was always the factor of insecurity with regard to the supply of spare parts should the trade relations discontinue But especially England and France have maintained very good relations with us in this respect and they have guaranteed the supply of spare parts for the equip ment we bought from them during the revolutionary stage and this has further strengthened our confidence in the possibility to import new machines and to build up with first class tech nical equipment of the latest models a whole series of indus- tries which we are in the process of developing g#fri _ LISA HOWARD What would happen to the Cuban economy if this trade with the West were suddenly cut off CHE Nething Che Guevara LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE LISA HOWARD CHE CHE 11 But you feel it's necessary Es conveniente It is convenient What would you like to see the United States do as regards Guba It is very difficult to give a precise answer It's some- what unrealistic Perhaps the most frank and most object ive answer would be Nothing Nothing in every reapect Nothing in our favor and nothing against us Just leave us alone not pay any attention to us Are you optimistic about the possibility of a normalization of relations between Cuba and the United States I think this is also difficult to answer We are waiting simply watching the situation use our foresight for which- ever way we will have to follow It depends on a whole series of circumstances on the very characteristics of the Government of the United States and also on the manner in which they would assess the world situation So far they have not proved capable of assessing accurately the alignment of forces in the world Therefore there is no clear prospect of a total normalization Now there are some facts that point to a different tone in the conduct of relations in spite of recent provocations like this absolutely piratical emprison- ment of our fishermen We might therefore at least co-exist To become friends would be difficult for many years with the American government that is And the people of the United States I think you will have seen here that we have abso- lutely nothing against the people and that there is not the least hatred in our country against the American peeple Thank you very much Major Guevara Thank you very much Major Thank you very much I don't know how to say de nada I have to say it in Spanish Thank you says in English You are welcome If something would have to happen to Fidel Castro what do you think would be the fate of the Cuban revolution and who do you think would accede to the power here From the type of your question I suppose you are referring to something violent that could happen to him It would naturally be a serious blow to the Cuban revolution we don't deny that Fidel is our indisputable and indisputed leader he has been our guide through a series of extremely difficult situations Cuba had to face and during which he has given proof of his stature as a world leader I think none of us has this stature But during all those years of l' Che Guevara I I LISA HOWARD CHE 12 fighting side by side with him we have acquired revolutionary experience and we have been trained in the same school a school of audacity sacrifice determination to defend our principles of analysis of the problems and with this back- ground we should be able to survive even if something should happen Who would replace him That would have to be a question to be discussed then We do not make this sort of speculationsany political ambitions But logically his brother Ra l not because he is his brother but because of his own qualifications - he is Deputy Prime Minister and naturally he would be the most suitable among us to follow the same path of the Cuban revolution You have worked very closely with Dr Castro for many many years What is your assessment of Fidel Castro as a man and as a leader This is one of so many questions that are difficult to answer and which you have asked me tonight especially because if there is one thing I hate it's adulation or something that is a desire to adulate But let me answer you frankly I will tell you that as a man Fidel has many qualities The funda- mental ones are his extraordinary firmness his humanism that transcends easily and embraces whole people and his un- breakable determination As a leader he has a fundamental quality to Judge each and every moment especially each and every difficult moment what action to take and after having taken the decision to follow that way with an absolute and firm perseverance until triumph is his It is very difficult to describe a man like Fidel but I think I have given his fundamental qualities This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu