DECLASSIFIED Authority 0 5 I Tokyo Japan May 19 1967 The Honorable Willis C Foster Director 0 5 Arms Control Disarmament Agency Washington D C Dear Mr Ambassador Attached is a draft Memorandum of Conversation of your talks with Foreign Minister Miki The memorandum has been cleared within the Embassy but I as sure you will think of points which we missed and nuances which you would like brought out Please make whatever corrections you think desirable and we assume you will distribute the final MenCon to those offices you feel should have copies I am also enclosing press clippings and pertinent trans- lations concerning your visit including a photograph of a cartoon which I thought might amuse you I find the latter somewhat typical of the Japanese penchant for ambiguity I want you to know how very pleased we were with your visit The Foreign Minister was obviously delighted and the great inconvenience to you cannot but assure the Japanese that the 0 5 is serious in its desire to consult with Japan on NPT and other important problems As a personal note I would like to add that I enjoyed the privilege of meeting you and being with you during your visit All best wishes for successful negotiation Sincerely yours Lewis M Purnell First Secretary of Embassy CONFIDENTIAL Haul-M10131 In 229 59 MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION PARTICIPANTS Foreign Minister MIKI Vice Foreign Minister USHIEA Deputy Vice Minister KDNDO Ambassador TANAKA Kasuo MURAKAMI Private Secretary to Foreign Minister Teruyuki SAHAI UN Bureau Ministry of Foreign Affairs Chief Disarmament Section oro HATTDRI Director UN Bureau Ministry of Foreign Affairs Ambassador Poster Minister Osborn Mr J 0 Zurhellen Jr Counselor of Embassy Mr Lewis M Parnell First Secretary PLACE Foreign Minister's Office Ministry of Foreign Affairs DATE May 8 1967 11 00 a m SUEJECT Non-Proliferation Treaty CC After numerous photographs were taken and photographers cleared rom the Conference Room the participants settled down in a con- fortable informal circle The Foreign Minister expressed his appreciation to Ambassador Poster for having come to Japan He said he realised how full Ambassador Foster's schedule is and was deeply grateful that the Ambassador had taken the time for these talks He said that inasmuch as there was little time available he would like to begin discussions immediately and asked Ambassador Foster's appraisal of the prospects for a Non-Proliferation Treaty especially the attitudes of NATO and the non-aligned countries and how the US-USSR negotiations were proceeding He said he realized this was a broad question but he was particularly interested in knowing how Ambassador Foster visualised the schedule of negotiations The Foreign Minister noted that he had recently called in the Soviet Charge' d Affaires to explain Japan's position regarding the NPT and had stressed that the nuclear nations and non-nuclear nations should both be subject to the same inspection procedures and that SECRET DELLASSIFIED Authode SECRET - 2 - peaceful uses of nuclear energy by non-nuclear weapon countries should be guaranteed Ambassador Foster expressed his pleasure in being able to accept the Foreign Minister's invitation to come to Tokyo He said the objective of the 0 5 was to put before the ENDC as soon as possible a reasonably agreed upon formulation which we hopled would be internationally acceptable He had had numerous negotiations with the Russians and had worked out Articles 1 and 2 with than as a result of Secretary Ru k's talks with Groeyko and Mr Foster's own talks with Roshchin The two articles were then discussed with our RAID allies and Secretary Rusk had discussed Article 1 during his last visit to Japan Article 1 being all that we had agreement for at that time Later we worked out Articles 3 4 5 and 6 We now had suggested to our allies that we should get a treaty out in the open so that all could see the language which was being proposed The treaty has still not been tabled primarily because of problems over the safeguards provision even after the recess in March we have yet to table a draft Mr Foster stressed that we did not visualize the draft as the last word but rather formulations which night lead toward final negotiations Mr Foster mentioned his meeting with NAG April 20 at which tine he discussed our latest draft and got the green light to proceed with negotiations with the Soviets He mentioned that some of the suggestions which had arisen in both discussions with our NAJO allies with Japan might better be presented after the draft is tabled that some of these suggestions can be tabled by our allies and others peaceful uses might best be proposed by unaligned nations He aentioned that arms reduction will presumably be taken care of in the preamble as the Operative part of the treaty has been designed to cope with what is prohibited and he noted that when you began including in the body of the treaty things which people wanted it could 53cm gunman mu Authority - d SECRET fr 4 l - 3 - become five miles long Ambassador Foster stressed that if we can prevent the spread of nuclear weapons to non-nuclear countries we will have taken a first but a very important step toward assuring peace He mentioned that the last five presidents of the 0 5 have had very strong feelings that as new countries obtain nuclear weapons dangers to international pages are greatly increased Mr Foster reiterated our long-standing interest in lessening world tensions and specifically noted achievement of the Test Ban Treaty Outer Space Treaty the hot line and the agreement to cut back on production of fissionable material - all of which the Sevie Sagreed to although it is difficult to tell whether they have lived up to commitments regarding fissionable material We visualize the NPT as the keystone in a larger structure which hopefully will lead to general and complete disarmament Ambassador Foster also mentioned that wegigzeady engaged with the Soviets concerning AMBs and delivery vehicles and hopefully we will be able to proceed to discussions concerning the reduction of fissionable material and the destruction of warheads and the use of that nuclear energy for peaceful purposes He said that many things could go into the preamble interest in the reduction of weapons and reducing world tensions but he thought it important that the treaty should not be just a collection of New Year's resolutions - not to be taken seriously He saw in the review conference procedure a way for non nucl ar nations to satisfy themselves that the nuclear nations had in fact carried out their commitments Ambassador Foster recognised Japan's interest in the review conference and Japan's views that reviews should be automatic He said the 0 5 dees not oppose this concept but thinks that additional review conferences could better be taken care of at the first review conference itself But this problem may be settled during the ENDC negotiations He said he would rather DECLASSIFIED 'r 5fo have these points brought out at the ENDC than try to negotiate them at this time As for amendments we have tried to take into account Japan's views but the Soviets have rejected any suggestion of simple majority rule Perhaps a two-thirds majority might have some chance and there is some interest in a U K suggestiOn that approval of all members of the Board of Governors of IAEA might be required This would give non-nuclear countries a chance to participate and would not be discriminatory Ambassador Foster noted that he had not given up on the question of amendments but that the Soviets were being very difficult Ambassador Foster then referred to Japan's interest n being assured that its peaceful uses would notube jeorpardised and explained that Paragraph 5 of Article response to such concern and that this is the one exception in the body of the treaty which otherwise mentions only things prohibited he have shown this new language to the Soviets but they seem to be much more concerned with the problem of Euratensolution to the IAEA Buraton problem Mr Foster said it might be best to table the treaty leaving Article 3 blank noting that it was still under negotiation RAID doesn't like this suggestion and wants an agreement before the treaty is tabled Ambassador Foster said that he would rather get the draft formulations on the table since the rest of the world is not well informed of the details and there is already too much misinformation abroad He saw little chance of agreement with the Soviets on this point before May 13 Theyjitiist on their Article 3 and we ours However as the other non-nuclear nations except India now have only a general outline of the treaty but none of the precise wording they are anxious to be better informed and we are anxious to get the formulations tabled so that they will be available to the world and hopefully will set to rest many of the current misapprehensions and permit SECRET DELLASS IF IED Au writyw truly open negotiations He stressed that the formulations have not SECRET -5- been agreed upon by anyone including the U S and the USSR but has the basic eleaents which may help to stop the spread of nuclear weapons Foreign Minister Niki thanked Ambassador Poster for his explan- ations and asked whether there were any other major problems between the 0 5 and the USSR other than the veto safeguards and Euraton Ambassador Foster said that it was difficult to tell at this stage r The Russians do not accept Buraton as an international agency and we tried to meet this by suggesting IAEA verifications of Euraton but this was unacceptable to the Buraton countries Mr Foster mentioned his own long-standing interest in applications of nuclear energy and how important the safeguards problem can be The 0 5 Government he stressed has probably the nest rigid safeguards imaginable and that a plant he was involved with cost some 12 million dollars to build but the safeguards cost an additional 15 million Ambassador Foster Mentioned Paragraph 2 of Article IV which had been altered and changes in the preanhle which spell out in dInioire detail the possibilities of instrumented safeguards These changes not seen to bother the Soviets nor did those in Paragraph 11 Other than Article and Paragraph 2 of Article IV the only serious questions with the Soviets arise over our interpretations He said we had received no official comment from the Soviets yet because of the May Day holidays in Moscow last week Ambassador Foster said that all of our interpretations have been stated to the Soviets by Secretary Rusk or himself at one time or another during the negotiations and while they were unwilling to state their agreement with then they have aid they would not object on the other hand neither would they endorse then what their reaction will be now that they see all our interpretations put together is hard to tell SECRET Authorityw 6 our intention to make public our interpretations during the ratification of the treaty in response to questions which we will make certain are raised in the Senate Our replies to these questions will become part of the legislative history of the treaty Ambassador Foster said that relations with the Soviets seem to be in several compartments the Soviets are shipping massive equipment to and there is some indication that their relations with the u s are hardening However as far as relations with his opposite numbers Ambassador Foster said they could only be described as cordial and that there was no doubt but that they have desirt I to achieve a Non-Proliferation Treaty Ambassador Foster described I himself as a congentfal optimist but he said he felt we were closer than ever to an NPT He realized however that the last mile was the hardest and that there would be great difficulties not only with the Russians but with our allies He mentioned that the Germans have difficulty with the treaty now proposed and that although Brandt seems to understand our position he is nevertheless a member of a coalition government Ambassador Foster also alluded to the concerns of India Foreign Minister Miki interrupted to ask what Ambassador Foster thought were the real issues yet to be settled with our allies Ambassador Foster replied that Germany's concern seemed to be two fold Fist a concern over the unlimied duration of the treaty which is the reason for the suggestion of a five or ten-year duration To this Secretary Rusk has noted that on the first day of the sixth year all the potential nuclear countries would be ready with nuclear weapons out of fear that their neighbors would be doing the same The second concern of Germany seemed to be a desire for some kind of Europe in which it could share nuclear weapons Ambassador Foster alluded to the history of HLF discussions and noted that in our interpretations we have made it clear that we accept the possibility SECRET DECLASSIFIED Authoon - of a federated European state which would hare the nuclear weapons SECRET 7 - of the U K and France as part of the weapons of that unified state Such a state however must be truly unified and cannot be merely a group of countries which decides it wants nuclear weapons Garlany also feels that if Euratom is succeeded by IABA Germany will be vulnerable to industrial espionage Aabassador Foster said that we do not ourselves believe that Euratom is a truly international organisation and he noted that when Euraton was established it was expected that it would be subsumed by an international agency at some time in the future However Euraton now seems to have a being and bureaucracy all its own Ambassador Foster added that he did not see why IAEA should be unacceptable to the Germans since it was understood that individual inspectors could be rejected if there were any grounds to suspect they might not be impartial Ambassador Foster noted that we have attempted to reassure the Buraton countries on the question of industrial espionage for example by taking into account the possibilities of instrumentation Ambassador Foster described our problems with Italy as somewhat kindred to those with Germany He said the Italian argument went something like this How can we accept limitations when our neighbors may develop nuclear weapons and when queried the Italians named Albania as such a possible neighbor Foster said the Italians also have some reservations over peaceful nuclear explosions but he noted that any country which has the capability of performing nuclear explosions in fact has a nuclear weapon capability which could kill hundreds of thousands of people On this point Ambassador Foster elaborated that if peaceful nuclear explosions became feasible then the 0 5 does not want a monopoly and we have pledged and the Soviets have joined us to make available such explosions under an international agency such as IAEA when such clean explosions become possible anbassador Foster digressed and noted that for 15 years scientists have been telling him that a peaceful explosion might be SECRET DECLASSIFIED Autho tyw SECRET c a that within five years but it hasn't been developed yet During a recent meeting with scientists they had insisted such an explosion was not really possible without spending hundreds of millions of dollars He said that such a device would have to be therno-nuclear to be clean and that in considering the possible use of such a device to excavate a new Panama Canal people would have to be evacuated for 300 miles of either side of the excavation and that it would certainly appear to be cheaper to spend the money improving conventional earth moving techniques Ambassador Foster said that India's concerns are somewhat different Chagla says India is a unique country - threatened by China - with a potential to develop nuclear weapons and yet non- aligned India appears to want assurances regarding peaceful uses and to retain the right to peaceful explosions India also believes she is entitled to guarantees against nuclear attacks On this point Ambassador Foster noted that the Indians had not been given the latest draft of the NPT although some countries say have discussed it with her Ambassador Foster said that on the question of guarantees which India wants we would have to take into account so many contingencies that the 0 8 Congress would not accept such commitments Ambassador Foster continued that he had told Chagla that it was odd that India wanted guarantees for itself when India was unwilling to give such gdiantees to others Chagla's reply was that India is in unusual nation The Ambassador mentioned that he had reminded Chagla of all the assistance we had given India since the Marshall Plan and called his attention to President Johnson's statement regarding the 0 5 position on nuclear blackmail Ambassador Foster said that we were willing to broaden President Johnson's statement by some UN action but that we were unwilling to go along with Kosygin's proposal in 1966 in which Kosygin had suggested assurances to countries which did not have nuclear weapons SECRET DECLASSIFIED Aumo xyw SECRET in their territories he could not accept this since it was an obvious attempt to wreck RAID Mr Foster also mentioned that last fall the Soviets had agreed that if there were a NPT we and they should promote a resolution by the ENDC regarding assurances perhaps we could broaden President Johnson's proposal and include part of Kosygin's suggestion but it is difficult to say whether this will satisfy India Mr Foster mentioned that L S Jha had received a draft of assurances from the Soviets but that we continued to believe that the UN was the forum for tackling this problem It was certain the 0 5 Senate would not agree to a commitment in 'advance but it might be possible to pursue the Johnson-Kosygin -proposals Ambassador Foster explained that the Soviet suggestion to the Indians only referred back to UN Article 51 commitments which of course we could support Prime Minister Hiki said that from the Japanese standpoint he shared the desire to put an end to nuclear proliferation but as a non-nuclear nation accepting the wisdom of the treaty as a first step Japan feels the treaty should lead to disarmament rather than just aneapons freeze The non-nuclear nations should have some assurances of the willingness of the nuclear countries to scale down and eventually disarm He felt that unless such commitments were embodied in the treaty it would be difficult to convince the non- nuclear nations they should join the treaty Ambassador Foster agreed and noted that his agency had been established to achieve just that purpose He reiterated our interest in general complete disarmament that we had such a draft treaty prepared and that we would like to see a complete cutoff of nuclear weapons production the destruction of thousands of warheads and the application of their use for peaceful purposes we would visualize a freeze followed by reduction of present levels of weapons and had proposed the destruction of 357s and Polaris As The question DECLASSIFIED Authority 2 2 Sm is how to accomplish these objectives He did not think that we could try to put these proposals into the and still get a meaningul treaty He stressed that we must proceed one step at a time but that we were willing to insert in the treaty a statenent of intentions and let the review conference look into the progress being made If no progress is made and a country's sovereign interests are being threatened such countries can of course withdraw from the treaty However if we attempt to put disarmament commitments into a treaty we will never get a treaty The Foreign Minister mentioned Japan's concern over its security in light of the no-war clause in its constitution and was particularly anxious to promote international peace He mentioned that something moreb dght be done through a UN proposal Ambassador Foster thought som iamplification of the UN Charter might be helpful and if the BNDC so desired a general statement could be included in the EFT preamble A UN Resolution could be done as a follow-up to the NPT The Foreign Minister noted that Japan has its security treaty with the 0 5 but inquired what Mr Foster thought of the future of RAID Ambassador Foster noted that the Belgians had suggested a possible safeguards setup but that as far as we know Germany and the other NATO allies intend to stick with the NATO treaty The Foreign Hinister said one of the things Japan was most deeply interested in was the question of peacerl uses He said Japan imports over 100 million tons of petrohun each year and appreciates the great potential importance of nuclear energy He asked whether after the NPT is tabled the 0 5 would be willing to dispatch a group of scientists and technicians for talks with the Government of Japan He added that Japan is especially interested in being assured of regular sources of nuclear energy and that her research and development will not be hindered nor will the development of nuclear fission He expressed the hope that these concerns might SECRET DECLASSIFIED Authority NM 22 8 5 SECRET -r - ll - be taken care of in the treaty in some for or other Ambassador Foster agreed that far-reaching developments in nuclear energy were likely to take place and that we would have to depend on nuclear fission I for power if we were going to have great progress in the development of nuclear-energy He said that recent research with the funnel effect looked promising He said nuclear fission in some places in the is new c hper than conventional fuel and that within a short tine we expect that half ouriienergy to be produced by nuclear energy He said our capabilities for producing fuel are great enough certainly for our allies and friends and we could certainly supply Japan needs He said we will be glad to sell an research and development Ambassador Foster said the ABC has made available its research except that concerning weapons and this is the reason why gas diffusion information was recently restricted He explained that reference to peaceful uses had been moved from preanbular clause into Paragraph 5 of Article 3 and the Soviets have expressed no objection Ambassador Poster then read the new draft formulation of Paragraph 5 of Article 3 The Foreign Minister thanked Ambassador Foster for this important change and expressed hope that the Ambassador can convince the Soviets and other colleagues to accept inspection AnbassaJot Foster said that he had tried strongly to sell the idea but without success He noted we have offered to put our peaceful uses under IAEA inspection as has the United Kingdom Hr Fosterxx cautioned that we had asked the NAG to treat this information with confidence He said that as yet not all of the 0 5 Congress accepts the idea He would very much like to bring the Soviets to accept the idea of IABA inspection becuase it is important to the next step in disarmament we would like to have checks on their territory Mr Foster noted the Soviets had accepted inspection of their facilities outside the USSR the Antarctic and outer space but they are i still violently opposed to any inspection on their territory Hr Foster SECRET ileum-summit 140%de - 12 - said probably the best we could do is make known the 0 5 and the u x take the same position as the non-nuclears The Foreign Minister said he thought it night he a good idea for the non-nuclear powers to get together to make representations on this point and Ambassador Foster said he thought they should do so The Foreign Minister then referred to Project Plowshare and said he thought the possibility of peaceful nuclear explosions seemed quite near He would like to tell his people that in the event peaceful uses can be distinguished from weapons this will be a topic for treaty review Ambassador Foster said that we are willing to guarantee to make available nuclear explosions when they becone practical for peaceful uses and we will detonate then but we do not see the possibility of a nuclear explosive device which can be distinguished from a weapon The Ambassador then referred to additional language which was included in the NPT draft to assure benefits of peaceful explosions Mr Hiki again asked whether he could make a public statement to that effect the treaty might be changed at a future date to pernigg zlear explosions to which Ambassador Foster again reviewed the unlikelihood of peaceful nuclear explosions ever being differen- tiated from weapons Hr Hiki mentioned the rapid advance in science and thought that one way to allay the non-nuclear's fears of discrimination would be - to have a treaty review every five years Ambassador Foster said that there would be C n automatic review after the first fiVe years and that he hoped the ENDC night discuss the possibility of setting up a steering committee which would set the agenda for the review Such a steering committee could also recommend an additional conference five years hence Ambassador Foster again noted our concern if the treaty were limited to a five-year duration and mentioned Ambassador I Rusks observation that by the end of a five-year period five SECRET nun easy Authority countries would be 8 months pregnant In other words too many - 13 - nations wod be preparing to go nuclear unless the treaty were of unlimited duration Ambassador Foster referred to an additional draft formulation of Article IV regarding the five-year review but noted that this had not been given to the Soviets and was one of those items which we expected to be brought up in the ENDC We were prepared to accept language concerning the preparatory commission and its role in a review conference The Foreign Minister again commented that the non-nuclear nations who had the capability of becoming nuclear might I well be reassured by a review of the treaty every five years and Ambassador Foster again noted that the preparatory commission mechanism could provide for a review every five years He said an automatic five-year review could certainly be considered as a possibility for inclusion in the treaty but we would prefer to leave the question open so that if for security or other reasons a conference would be inappropriate one need not be held every five years The Foreign Minister said that he hoped Ambassador Foster under- stood how sorry the Japanese Government was in asking him to make such a long trip but that the request was necessary bwcause Japan was not a member in the ENDS He said he heped the 0 8 Government would support Japan's membership in the ENDC and that he had already discussed the possibility with the Soviets He said that he assumed that since the troika principle had been dropped that it would not apply to Japan's membership Ambassador Foster said that Japan had been one of our first nominees in 1961 but that the Soviets had rejected our proposal Our only concern now is that the ENDC not be expanded to a point where it loses its usefulness He said that Japan and perhaps one or two others would be all right but that once the group goes beyond 20 or 21 its effectiveness would be reduced by the square of the number of new members He noted the Soviets appear less objectionable now than previously nd perhaps SECRET DECLASSIFIED Authority wm le -14- ng can be worked out He said Yugoslavia also wants to be a member and the Soviets will certainly want an East European The Foreign Minister said that Japan always has in mind the problem of Communist China and wondered if there weren't some way of getting Communist China and France to participate in the treaty Ambassador Foster agreed to the desirability of their membership but did not know how they could be enticed at this time There was some discussion as to a general line for the press and the meeting broke up at 12 45 at which time the Forign Minister and Ambassador Foster met briefly with the Japanese press At luncheon the Foreign Minister asked Ambassador Foster whether the 0 5 would be willing to join the seismic detection group to which Ambassador responded that we would be willing but preferred that all the nuclear powers belong as well in order to make it effective The Foreign Minister also asked whether Ambassador Foster thought the Soviet Union could be trusted and Foster replied that while he had no illusions about the Soviet Union and was certain she was still bent on extending her influence and control over the entire world he was also convinced that the Soviet Union wanted a Non-Proliferation Treaty and that this was something which was in her own national interest The Foreign Minister asked whether Ambassador Foster had thought Germany and France would sign the treaty to which the Ambassador responded that he thought Germany would sign although it was doubtful France would sign in the near future The Foreign Minister also asked the Ambassador whether he could make a public statement that the u s was willing to put its peaceful uses under IAEA inspection and Ambassador Foster explained that it would be better to say no more than the 0 5 had such a proposal under consideration The Foreign Minister said that when Mr Brandt arrives this week he will take the opportunity to try to get him to agree to a joint statement urging equality of all nations on matters of inspection Mr Niki said that while Japan agreed with the purposes of the NPT he could not tell at this stage whether Japan unL Aumonty m I ll would sign the treaty He said he must bring along his people and referred to the interperty consultations now taking piece on NPT Ambassador Foster said he could Certainly appreciate Japan's position and that the 11 5 at this stage could not emit itself either to the treaty since all we were dealing with at the moment were draft for gletione which were still subject to much negotiation This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu