satay Authoritym 53 5 5593 ensitiaed RESTRICTED May bl read in mrno Cleassd wit out the permission of S Transfers by i I MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION Approved in 5 10 2 67 DATE swarm - TIME Secretary's Office SUBJECT thT-Proliferation Treaty Part II of II PARTICIPANTS Takeo Miki Minister of Foreign Affairs of Japan Takeso Shimoda Ambassador of Japan Makoto Watanabe interpreter The Secretary U Alexis Johnson Ambassador to Japan James J Nickel interpreter COPIES TO 96 3 EUR AmEmbassy TOKYO CIA Director ACDA BOD SecDef White House EA Ma The Secretary asked whether Japan had any concerns with respect to the NOnTToliferation Treaty Miki said that the preamble of the present treaty refers first to the desirability of reducing international tensions and then to the ultimate goal of general and complete nuclear disarmament and he asked whether this can be redrafted to state more clearly the intent of achieving nuclear disarmament as a means of reducing international tensions The peeple of Japan have already renounced forever the possibility of deve10ping nuclear weapons and are concerned that this will leave them in an adverse position vis-a-vis the nuclear were The peoPle of Japan therefore strongly favor a eclaration of intent to achieve an ultimate nuclear dis- armament guarantee Seemingly while Japan does not desire a lOOphole to permit the development of nuclear weapons it should be understood that Japan requires annually 100 million tons of crude oil 99% of which is imported to provide for 60% of her energy requirements The peaceful development of nuclear SECRETZEXDIS mama 6A 5 aw ab DECLASSIFIED I Authority D 5 1 COO EXD IS 2 energy therefore is of great interest to Japan because her energy requirements are expected to continue to increase Japan intends to become a great power in the peaceful use of nuclear energy and the NPT must not prevent this Furthermore Japan does not wish to be denied the opportunity If using nuclear explosives for peaceful purposes when these are fully developed Japan hOpes that the safeguard provisions in the treaty will be applied on an equitable basis when they are finally agreed to and that inspection including inspection of nuclear material can be as fully automated as possible While the Soviet Union does not agree to be inspected nevertheless the nuclear powers should also be inspected Japan hOpes that the U S and England can support such an inspection Finally there is a question of review after five years There is also the most important question of security guarantees for the non-aligned nations who do not have security arrangements For their benefit perhaps such guarantees should be provided in the form of a United Nations resolution The Government of Japan is trying to incline public opinion toward acceptance of such a treaty so that it can be ratified with p0pu1ar approval Other matters are not normally taken up on a bipartisan basis in Japan but the Non-Proliferation Treaty has been The Secretary said that on the first point American readiness to accept nuclear disarmament is complicated by two factors 1 the failure of Peking and President DeGaulle to participate in the Non-Proliferation Treaty and 2 our unwillingness to accept nuclear disarmament as a legal requirement of the Non Prol ration Treaty There is a difference between referring to nuclear disarmament in the preamble and in the operational clauses of the draft treaty One nuclear power is already one too many and it was a great tragedy that the Baruch Plan was not adopted in 1946 but now there are other nuclear powers 0n the basis of discussions this morning with Ambassador Foster who is back from Geneva on consultation it would seem possible to strengthen the Ereambular language of the draft treaty He asked whether is would raise particular difficulties for Japan Miki said the preamble is acceptable but in its present form the draft states a desire to reduce international SECRET EXDIS ll LU Authomyumm 3 tensions so that complete nuclear disarmament can become possible Japan prefers to reverse the order of the clauses stating that complete nuclear disarmament is desirable in terms of reducing international tensions The Secretary said that the United States is anxious to begin talks with the Soviet Union on both offensive and defense nuclear missiles The Soviet Union has said it would discuss this matter but has not yet set a date At Glassboro it was pressed as to whether it could begin the following Wednesday or the following Friday but it has not yet set a date The United Sttes is deeply interested in making progress on this matter with the Soviet Union and is confident that we will The Secretary said that there is one important problem to keep in mind The United States has security arrangements with Japan the Republic of Korea and other nations in the Pacific The United States has a pepulation of 200 million peOple Mainland China has a population of 700 million or possibly a billion peeple and the United States will not permit itself to bleed to death in a fight with Mainland China armed only with conventional weapons The question of peaceful uses of nuclear energy is no particular problem because the NPT applies only to weapons The United States has an understanding on this point with the Soviet Union and the treaty will not interfere with the development of peaceful uses Miki said that the United States had promised to send experts to Japan to discuss this question The Secretary said that we will satisfy Japan on this He also said there is a particular problem raised by Brazil that is the deve10pment of nuclear explosives for peaceful purposes Nuclear explosives for peaceful purposes are no different from nuclear explosives used in weapons We see this as a pretext which cannot be permitted because the nuclear explosives which are used to destroy a mountain can also be used to destroy a city On this question the nuclear powers can make an arrangement to provide explosives for peaceful use to those nations which need them We cannot DECLASSIFIED Authority mm 3 6 4 however accept the view that the development of nuclear explosbes by non-nuclear nations is a matter independent of the Non Proliferation Treaty Miki said that Canada has stated that another treaty on the develoPment of nuclear explosives for peaceful purposes might be desirable The Secretary said that the Uhited States thinks it may be possible to provide for such explosives for a few non-B clear nations but even this lies far in the future because tge problem of nuclear fallout The United States and the Soviet Union have agreed that some arrangement might be made for nations which require nuclear explosives to dig a harbor for example or to level a mountain without violating the treaty on non-proliferation Miki asked whether there can be a guarantee on the matter of nuclear explosives for peaceful uses in a separate treaty The Secretary said that the United States is prepared to look into the matter With respect to safeguards the Secretary said that it is hard to get agreement with Euratom because President DeGaulle is a complication Italy has raised some problems in Euratom because apparently for reasons of national prestige it has no real wish to renounce publicly its Option of developing nuclear weapons It fears that the big five or the big six nuclear powers will not include Italy The Secretary said that he h0pes that an arrangement can be made with Euratom for insPection on which both the United States and Japan could agree Miki said that such arrangements with Euratom and the IAEA should be kept as simple as possible to prevent giving the impression of interference The Secretary said that he agreed Miki asked whether there can be United States Soviet agreement on Article Inspection which is now left blank The Secretary said there is not yet agreement but there is a draft Ambassador Roshchin without the approval of the Soviet Government pr0posed a draft to meet the needs of Euratom and IAEA A copy of this text was provided Japan But Euratom has not yet replied and President DeGaulle is of no help EXDIS r' I Lh all Authority 9 DOD 5 The Secretary said that eternity is a long time and that some limit perhaps 25 years should be included in the treaty with provision for review and amendment of the arrangements at some point Miki said that it would be helpful for the Gurernment of Japan in persuading the people of Japan to accept the treaty if it provided for such review every five years The Secretary said this would depend on what is to be reviewed If the fundamental idea of providing for non-proliferation is to be reviewed every five years the United States would be deeply concerned In effect a number of nations could remain 8 months pregnant waiting for the conclusion of the five year period They could deve10p their technology looking ahead to the end of the five year period India Israel Brazil Germany Italy and others could prepare to develop weapons at the end of a five year period Miki said that he did not intend to say that the fundamental purpose of the treaty should be reviewed but that arrangements could be reviewed for example to see whether the treaty does tor does not in fact interfere with the deve10pment of the peaceful uses of nuclear energy or whether it is creating a feeling conducive to steps toward nuclear disarmament The Secretary said that he understands that Japan would have no great difficulty in accepting the NPT in principle and that it is essential to find a common answer to the questiOn of review Miki said the treaty must be enforced to prevent absolutely any weapons develOpment Japan feels strongly that the treaty must attack strongly the roots of the argument that five years hence it may be possible to develop nuclear weapons At the same time Japan is equally concerned with the peaceful uses of nuclear energy There- fore some improvement in the text of the draft treaty is desirable to allay some possible fears of the results of its application The Secretary said that the United States might be able to accommodate Japan with respect to peaceful uses The United States is ready to participate in scientific and technical discussions to clarify these points With respect to inspection the United States is ready to consider accepting inspection on its peaceful facilities but the Soviet Union is not and will not yield On these points SECRET EXDIS DECLASSIFIED Authority 5 boo 6 Ambassador Johnson asked if Miki had discussed this matter in Mbscow Miki said he had The Soviet's responded by asking him in bad humor why Japan wished to apply the treaty to a nation which had already develoPed nuclear weapons and asked whether the purpose of the NPT was not to insure development of nuclear weapons by the non nuclear nations The Secretary said the United States does not object to such pressures on the Soviet Union In fact he has talked with Foreign Minister Gromyko on the same point but Gromyko has said that the Soviets will not consider this question The question of security guarantees for the non-aligned nations is a serious one for the United States because it involves the United States in a pledge of 100 million American lives in the first hour of a nuclear war Miki asked if it would be equally difficult to meet the needs of the non-aligned nations for reasonable assurances in the form of a United Nations resolution The Secretary said that the only possibility would be some form of commitment by the Security Council to act on the assurance that such action would be taken jointly by the permanent members of the Security Council If India wants he United States to agree to enter a nuclear war on her behalf in the event for example of a war between India and the Soviets as a condition for signing the NPT this is absolutely impossi e for the United States to do Miki asked whether a French veto would be possible in such an event in the Security Council The Secretary said that he and Foreign Minister Gromyko have a full understanding on this point While some- thing may be possible in the Security Council the United States will not agree to engage in a nuclear war with the Soviet Union simply to get India to sign the NPT Miki asked whether Indian participation is not essential He had talked to Deputy Premier Desai recently in Tokyo on this point urging that India accept the NPT If India does not sign neither will Pakistan The Secretary said that Deputy Premier Desai had recently told him that India did not attach any particular importance to such an announcement of guarantees The United States simply cannot guarantee others against nuclear attack in the Non-Proliferation Treaty Ratification of a treaty with such a clause would be most difficult in the United States Congress and would even be difficult for the Soviet Union to accept The only solution A Authority 5 1 COO JlrI 7 might be a United Nations resolution Ambassador Shimoda said that he had been impressed by increasing Indian concern for assurances such as those contained in the Kosygin proposal India is not anxious to secure assistance for nuclear develop- ment but simply requires guarantees against nuclear attack by nuclear powers Kosygin guaranteed India that the Soviet Union would not attack with nuclear weapons The Secretary said that Kosygin does not speak for Communist China Miki said that India seems to wish to have guarantees against a nuclear attack by both the Soviet Union and the United States The Secretary said that joint assurances by the permanent members of the Security Council is quite different from such a unilateral guarantee Miki said it is essential to have the greatest number of nations possible participate in the treaty Should India and Italy for example not agree to sign Japan would also find it most difficult to do so 1311 SEE SS ti 3 DECLASSLFIED 1 I a Authority 5'1 000 a I 3 EXECUTIVE SECRETARIAT 1 Original -- CNS 2 Info - Ex 50cretnry 3 015 control and Distribution Deputy Sheet for 553 0151 EXDIS PEMORANDA 7224 File '-waing 4 I - CONTROL I J C'lazsificaaion SECRET control No 15306 atq Wemcon between the Secretary and Minister of Foreign Affairs Jgpi n Takeo Miki dated 9 16 67 re Non-Proliferation Treaty 2 of 2 1' E'I striuution Approved By Date 9 2 67 Eggtion Made By HB ck Date 10 3 67 II will COPY run- BER SENT TO DESTRUCTION Omisu'mt EXDIS Memo File 7512 7 EXDIS Memo File 7224 ACDA 1 CIA Direcvtc-r 73 White House - ormmum RELEASED WITHOUT EXCLUSIVE SECRETARIAT This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu