Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 1 of 145 IN TH E U N ITED S TATES D IS TR IC T C O U R T FO R TH E S O U TH ER N D IS TR IC T O F G EO R G IA U N ITED S TATES O F A M ER IC A P lain tif f vs R EA LITY LEIG H W IN N ER D efen d an t ______________________________ 1 17 C R 3 4 D ETEN TIO N H EA R IN G B EFO R E TH E H O N O R A B LE B R IA N K EP P S FR ID AY S EP TEM B ER 29 201 7 10 01 A M A U G U S TA G EO R G IA FO R TH E G O V ER N M EN T Jennifer G Solari Esquire U S Attorney's Office Post Office Box 8970 Savannah Georgia 31412 912 201-2561 Julie Ann Edelstein Esquire U S Department of Justice 600 E Street NW 10th Floor Washington DC 20002 202 233-2260 David C Aaron Esquire U S Department of Justice 950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW Washington DC 20530 202 307-5190 Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 2 of 145 FO R TH E D EFEN D A N T John C Bell Jr Esquire Titus T Nichols Esquire Bell Brigham 457 Greene Street Augusta Georgia 30901 706 722-2014 Joe D Whitley Esquire Baker Donelson Bearman Caldwell Berkowitz PC 3414 Peachtree Road NE Suite 1600 Atlanta Georgia 30326 404 223-2209 Jill E McCook Esquire Baker Donelson Bearman Caldwell Berkowitz PC 265 Brookview Centre Way Suite 600 Knoxville Tennessee 37919 865 549-7129 Matthew S Chester Esquire Baker Donelson Bearman Caldwell Berkowitz PC 201 St Charles Avenue Suite 3600 New Orleans Louisiana 70170 504 566-5231 O FFIC IA L C O U R T R EP O R TER Lisa H Davenport RPR FCRR Post Office Box 5485 Aiken South Carolina 29804 706 823-6468 Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 3 of 145 3 IN D EX 1 2 W ITN ESS 3 Justin C Garrick By Mrs Solari By Mr Bell 14 Brittany M Winner By Mr Nichols By Mrs Solari 94 Billie Winner-Davis By Mr Nichols By Mrs Solari 120 4 5 6 7 8 D IR EC T C R O SS R ED IR EC T R EC R O SS 54 86 91 105 123 127 9 G O V ER N M EN T'S EX H IB ITS 10 11 NO ID EN TIFIC ATIO N 12 1 2 3 4 5 6-A 6-B 6-C 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Employment docs Photograph of text messages Interview transcript 6 3 17 Screenshot of securedrop sites OMITTED DVD of two telephone calls Transcript of telephone call Transcript of telephone call Photographs of notes Web history excerpts Instant message 2 9 17 Instant message 2 14 17 Instant message 2 25 17 Instant message 3 7 17 USAF Exit Questionnaire Letters written by defendant 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ID A D M ITTED 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 14 Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 4 of 145 4 1 2 Call to Order at 10 01 a m THE CLERK The Court calls case number 1 17CR34 3 The United States of America v Reality Leigh Winner 4 Solari Julie Edelstein and David Aaron for the government 5 John Bell Joe Whitley Matthew Chester Jill McCook and Titus 6 Nichols for the defendant 7 THE COURT 8 MRS SOLARI 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Jennifer Here for a detention hearing Good morning everybody Good morning Your Honor The government is ready THE COURT Mrs Solari will you be lead counsel today for the government MRS SOLARI Yes Your Honor I may defer to my colleagues for a couple of matters but I am lead today THE COURT Okay Mr Bell are you lead counsel today for the defense MR BELL Your Honor I'll be doing some 17 Mr Whitley some and Titus will be doing some portions 18 be glad to start 19 THE COURT Okay I'll Well if you two will maybe take a 20 seat for just a minute I want to say a couple of things and 21 then we'll begin with the substance of the hearing 22 all I know I owe you an amended scheduling order 23 ready but I'm waiting on -- I wanted to get some information 24 about security clearances from Mr Whitley and Mr Chester 25 because obviously nothing really kicks off until that occurs First of I have that Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 5 of 145 5 1 and I wanted a better idea of a timeline for that so that I can 2 kind of map out where I think we're going to be in terms of 3 date-certain deadlines and how that coordinates with the 4 holidays and how much time we've got to do all of the 5 preliminary matters before we have the trial itself making sure 6 I give as much time as I can for everybody to do the things 7 that they need to do in the case 8 that to you shortly either today or Monday 9 10 Is there anything else in that vein that we all need to talk about today Mr Bell from your perspective 11 MR BELL 12 THE COURT 13 No Your Honor Mrs Solari from the government's perspective 14 MRS SOLARI 15 THE COURT 16 No sir Your Honor Okay In terms of the number of witnesses how many will the government calling 17 18 MRS SOLARI The government expects to call one witness Your Honor 19 THE COURT 20 MR BELL 21 THE COURT Okay And as to the defense Two witnesses Your Honor Okay Are any of those witnesses in the 22 courtroom right now Mr Bell 23 MR BELL 24 25 So I am going to be getting They're out there in one of the conference rooms THE COURT Okay Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 6 of 145 6 1 2 MR BELL They were there when I last saw them I just wanted to make sure they hadn't come in 3 THE COURT Okay 4 MR BELL 5 THE COURT 6 MRS SOLARI We're keeping them there until called All right And Your Honor for the record the 7 government's witness is its case agent Special Agent Garrick 8 We would ask -- as part of the government trial team we would 9 ask that he remain in the courtroom 10 THE COURT Okay 11 He's allowed to do that 12 first is that correct 13 MRS SOLARI Well that's certainly customary I imagine he is going to testify Well Your Honor I don't know I 14 assume that since the defendants moved to reopen this hearing 15 to present what they claim is new and material evidence I 16 assumed that the movant would go first 17 controls the court so if you want the government to go first 18 we can do that 19 THE COURT Of course Your Honor That's how we typically proceed 20 particularly since it's the government's burden with respect to 21 the detention hearing 22 today 23 MRS SOLARI 24 THE COURT So that's how I would like to proceed 25 All right Would you like to make any opening statements or proffers before we begin with the first witness Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 7 of 145 7 1 MR BELL Your Honor if I might there is one 2 issue This refers to documents and not testimony but there's 3 some documents that we wish to introduce that need to be done 4 in the secure environment and whether we do that first or last 5 or whenever the Court wants to do it we can though I don't 6 think it is going to take long and it may make more sense to do 7 that first 8 the court and all that 9 from any of them The government is aware of what we're putting in 10 THE COURT 11 MR BELL 12 THE COURT It's not like we're going to quote Right Obviously not I just think for the pure sake for the 13 fact we're already in here we'll just start with what we have 14 unless there is a reason to do the other first 15 if you have a particular preference in that regard that we need 16 to consider the classified evidence before we begin here 17 because it sets the proper context for things Mr Bell 18 that true 19 20 21 MR BELL I don't know Is I think it may make the context more meaningful but we can -- it's not crippling by any means THE COURT Okay All right Well let's just go 22 ahead and proceed then in what I think might be the more 23 efficient manner of beginning here and then taking it upstairs 24 after we're done 25 So Mrs Solari with that if you have any -- you said no Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 8 of 145 8 1 opening remarks from you 2 MRS SOLARI Not really Your Honor I think the 3 Court got the decision right the last time based on the facts 4 that were presented 5 today that weigh even more heavily in favor of the continued 6 detention of the defendant and I would ask that the Court grant 7 us a little bit of leniency with the witness on a couple of 8 occasions The government intends to present facts It's something a bit unusual 9 In response to I think two of my questions Special Agent 10 Garrick actually has literally a scripted response because it's 11 been very carefully vetted and approved by the U S government 12 agencies that have equities in that information so I would ask 13 the Court's leniency in allowing Special Agent Garrick to read 14 from a prepared statement in response to two of my questions 15 THE COURT Right And of course that means to the 16 extent that he brings any materials with him to the witness 17 stand the defense --- 18 MRS SOLARI 19 THE COURT 20 MRS SOLARI 21 THE COURT 22 23 I'll have the defense to look at it Right Okay Yes sir Mr Bell anything that the defense would like to say before we begin with the first witness MR BELL 24 an opening statement 25 THE COURT Yes Sure If I could present Mr Whitley for Good morning Mr Whitley Come Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 9 of 145 9 1 on up 2 MR WHITLEY 3 THE COURT 4 MR WHITLEY Good morning Your Honor Good morning It is a pleasure to be here in Augusta 5 and I want to compliment the court security personnel here in 6 Augusta for the courtesy they've afforded me and the entire 7 defense team 8 a great group of men and women so the Court knows this but 9 sometimes when you receive courtesy from a court and the court It's been nothing short of remarkable They're 10 family it should be duly noted 11 Augusta and the personnel here at the courthouse have shown us 12 THE COURT So thank you for the courtesy Well I certainly echo that sentiment 13 The CSOs we have here are very proud of what they do 14 an integral part of the court and they certainly adhere to the 15 same standard of excellence that's expected in federal court 16 So we're proud of what they do and I appreciate you mentioning 17 it 18 MR WHITLEY Thank you Your Honor They are We sincerely 19 appreciate the opportunity to be here this morning I am 20 confident the Court is thoroughly familiar with the briefs 21 filed by the government and filed by the defendant in this 22 case 23 the information that we're going to be presenting -- with a 24 view toward the terms and conditions that are set forth in the 25 Bail Reform Act under 18 United States Code Section 3142 f We only ask the Court to look at this new evidence -- Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 10 of 145 10 1 and we believe there are considerations that should be taken 2 into account that really have a lot of bearing to do with how 3 this case unfolded and I think the Court will hear about those 4 in the proceedings that come next 5 Certainly upon her arrest and then later detention 6 hearing which took place in just a matter of days later the 7 defense counsel in this case really did not have sufficient 8 time to pull together information that we now have in our 9 possession that we think may be relevant to the Court 10 Certainly the Court will be making that decision and we defer 11 to the Court's decision in that regard 12 numerous pieces of information we think would be useful for the 13 Court to hear about and that will be happening next 14 However these We also think that the facts developed in the first few 15 days of this case and going forward should not move us away 16 from a presumption of innocence 17 start in all these analyses and the Court appreciates that 18 but also her continued confinement we believe is manifestly 19 unjust and should not continue 20 presentation to you 21 This is after all where we We'll be making that And as the Court will note -- and we'll be making a 22 presentation on this at some point in the proceeding -- in 23 almost every other situation involving the Espionage Act some 24 of these cases much more severe in terms of the number of times 25 that an individual shared a Top Secret information -- in some Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 11 of 145 11 1 cases with a foreign power or other individuals multiple 2 episodes of sharing this information including a former 3 National Security Director at the White House Sandy Berger 4 including a four-star general -- shared information 5 substantially akin to what was shared in this situation or if 6 the government's assertions were to be proved correct and the 7 Court certainly has to consider that as it thinks about this 8 particular proceeding 9 So I won't go on longer because I know that time is 10 precious The Court's obligation and the objective of this 11 proceeding this morning is to provide you with information that 12 helps you serve in that obligation that you've been invested 13 with and we respect that 14 release that the Court could consider that would reasonably 15 assure Ms Winner's appearance and the safety of the community 16 here in Augusta We believe there are conditions of 17 Moreover and I guess I'll mention almost every other case 18 of espionage the defendants have been granted pretrial release 19 We say in this regard as compared to those cases in terms of 20 the information being shared we're talking about one piece of 21 information one information news source that was shared with 22 arguably and on one occasion 23 which is -- although depending on where a person sits in a 24 case a case is highly complex 25 with this case and of course familiar with that in terms of So this is what we have here There is lots of complexity Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 12 of 145 12 1 CIPA we are not going to be able to try this case as we all 2 anticipated in the fall of this year but many months from now 3 perhaps as early as March and our objective will be to be 4 compliant with the Court's wishes so the case can be tried at 5 that time but there are many hurdles to overcome 6 period of time this defendant will continue to be confined if 7 she's not permitted to be released on pretrial release subject 8 to your conditions 9 opportunity 10 11 Thank you Your Honor THE COURT During that I appreciate the Thank you Mr Whitley And I would ask the deputy marshal to maybe remove that 12 from the TV stand 13 it's kind of distracting as we go through the evidentiary part 14 of this to focus on the legal stuff 15 16 17 All right I've got the copy of all those cases and Mrs Solari MRS SOLARI Thank you Your Honor The government calls Special Agent Justin Garrick 18 JU S TIN C G A R R IC K is d u ly sw orn 19 THE COURT Mrs Solari before we begin for 20 perhaps efficiency's sake and ease of administration have you 21 provided the notebook of exhibits to defense counsel 22 MRS SOLARI Yes Your Honor I have I asked 23 defense counsel to please take a look at our proposed exhibits 24 this morning and in the interest of expediency let me know if 25 they have any objection to me simply moving to admit the bulk Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 13 of 145 13 1 of them at the outset of the hearing and they were very kind in 2 taking the time to look at my exhibits and indicating that they 3 had no objections to my moving to admit them 4 exhibit however I'd like to withhold because although the 5 exhibit itself is not classified I would not like to discuss 6 its details in an unclassified forum 7 There is one So at this time Your Honor I believe without objection 8 from the defense the government would move to admit into 9 evidence Government's Exhibits 1 through 4 and 6 through 14 10 THE COURT 11 MRS SOLARI 12 THE COURT 13 And that's 6A 6B 6C -Yes sir -- 7 through 14 excluding only Exhibit 5 14 MRS SOLARI 15 THE COURT 16 MR BELL 17 THE COURT 18 MR BELL 20 THE COURT 21 MR BELL 22 THE COURT 23 MR BELL 25 Mr Bell -No objection Your Honor -- y'all stipulate to the admissibility -- 19 24 Yes sir Your Honor Yes -- of these -Yes -- exhibits she just referenced Yes Not to the probative value on this issue -THE COURT Right Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 14 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 14 1 2 MR BELL objection 3 4 -- but to the admissibility we have no THE COURT All right All those exhibits except for 5 have been admitted into evidence 5 Government's Exhibit Nos 1-4 6A-14 are admitted 6 MRS SOLARI Thank you Your Honor and I have just 7 shown Mr Bell the somewhat scripted response we have for 8 Special Agent Garrick that's been cleared for an unclassified 9 presentation 10 THE COURT 11 MRS SOLARI 12 THE COURT Okay May I approach the witness Your Honor You may D IR EC T EX A M IN ATIO N 13 14 BY MRS SOLARI 15 Q 16 items that have now been admitted into evidence as Government's 17 Exhibits 1 through 4 and 6 through 14 18 you this single piece of paper 19 Special Agent Garrick I am going to leave with you the I'll also leave with I might have been distracted at the outset Have you 20 already stated your name for the record and told everybody 21 where you work 22 A I have not 23 Q Okay 24 your last name 25 A Please introduce yourself to the Court and spell My name is Justin Garrick G-A-R-R-I-C-K I am a special Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 15 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 15 1 agent with the FBI in the Augusta Resident Agency of the 2 Atlanta Field Office 3 Q 4 What is your assignment 5 A My assignment is counterintelligence investigation 6 Q And how long have you been doing that in the Augusta area 7 A In the Augusta area since May of 2013 8 Q Were you stationed somewhere else with the FBI prior to 9 2013 And in what capacity do you serve as a special agent 10 A Yes I was 11 Q Where was that 12 A I was in Philadelphia from 2009 to 2013 13 Q What was the nature of your assignment there 14 A Counterintelligence investigations 15 Q Do you have previous experience in the intelligence or 16 counterintelligence field prior to becoming a special agent 17 with the FBI 18 A 19 division with the FBI from 2005 to 2008 20 Q 21 joining the FBI as an analyst 22 A 23 response with the World Bank Group in DC from 2002 to 2004 24 Q 25 investigation of this defendant Reality Winner I was an intelligence analyst in the counterterrorism And did you work at all in the intelligence field prior to Yes I worked in intelligence analysis and emergency And are you the case agent who has handled the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 16 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 16 1 A Yes I am 2 Q When did you first hear the name Reality Winner 3 A It was on June 1 2017 4 Q In what context 5 A I was being given a briefing by a government agency -- 6 intelligence agency -- regarding potential release of 7 classified information 8 Q 9 government agency determined that in fact their classified And at the time you were contacted on 1 June had that 10 information had been compromised 11 A Yes 12 Q Was it a document that had been compromised 13 A Yes it was 14 Q What was the level of classification of that document 15 A It was a Top Secret SCI document 16 Q And did it have additional handling restrictions as well 17 A Yes it did 18 Q How many pieces were there to the compromised document at 19 issue 20 A It was the Intelligence Report and an attachment 21 Q So according to the government agency that briefed you 22 did the information that had been compromised pertain to the 23 national defense of the United States 24 A Yes it did 25 Q How did the agency determine that its information had been Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 17 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 17 1 compromised 2 A 3 news media outlet with photographs of the document and 4 requested verification 5 Q 6 did they include depictions of both the intelligence reporting 7 and the attachment that you said was also a piece of the item 8 at issue 9 A Yes 10 Q Did the government agency examine the photos that were 11 sent to them and determine that in fact the reporting sent 12 was authentic 13 A Yes 14 Q That it was truly a Top Secret SCI document 15 A Yes it was 16 Q In possession of a news media outlet 17 A Correct 18 Q And is it your understanding that that news media outlet 19 has any authority whatsoever to possess that classified 20 information 21 A They do not 22 Q How was the defendant employed at that time -- May 23 June -- of this year 24 A 25 International The agency was sent a message electronically by an online And the photos that were sent to the government agency The defendant was employed as a linguist with Pluribus Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 18 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 18 1 Q And Pluribus International is a contractor 2 A Yes 3 Q So pursuant to the contract where did they assign the 4 defendant to work as a linguist 5 A At the National Security Agency 6 Q When did she start with Pluribus International 7 A On or about February 9 2017 8 Q What was her level of security clearance 9 A She had a Top Secret SCI clearance 10 Q Did she receive any training either from Pluribus or from 11 NSA about how to properly safeguard classified information 12 A Yes 13 14 MR BELL I object This would be pure hearsay on his part 15 16 Yes she did THE COURT Which is allowed in the context of this hearing 17 MR BELL Okay That will be fine 18 Q So Special Agent have you reviewed some of the 19 defendant's training records 20 A Yes I have 21 Q Did you find that for instance on the 16 22 of this year she was trained in elements of classification and 23 marking 24 A Yes she was 25 Q What does that pertain to th of February Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 19 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 19 1 A It basically is training to differentiate between a 2 Secret document Top Secret document and the different 3 handling caveats and how you handle those 4 Q 5 Confidential Secret Top Secret 6 A 7 cause to the U S Government if it had been released 8 Q 9 be expected to cause exceptionally great damage to national What difference does it make really whether something is It directly relates to the amount of damage that it would So Top Secret being that information that could reasonably 10 security if compromised 11 A Correct 12 Q Was the defendant also trained on the 17 13 this year in CI OPSEC and unauthorized disclosure 14 A Yes 15 Q What does that CI stand for 16 A Counterintelligence 17 Q What is OPSEC 18 A Operational Security 19 Q What does that mean 20 A It is basically how to go about securing items how to 21 be cognizant be aware of any potential security issues 22 Q 23 agreements with the government or with her contract employer to 24 safeguard classified information 25 A th of February of Special Agent did this defendant enter into any written Yes she did Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 20 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 20 1 Q If you could please turn your attention to Exhibit 1 in 2 the box in front of you 3 A 4 agreements nondisclosures acknowledgments 5 Q 6 through them quickly -- but does the first page indicate that 7 on the 9 th of February 2017 the defendant went through her 8 Pluribus new hire security briefing 9 A Yes 10 Q And does that security briefing once again include 11 instruction on how to properly handle and safeguard classified 12 information 13 A Yes 14 Q The next document in here is that entitled National 15 Security Agency Contractor Security Agreement 16 A It is 17 Q And is this essentially the defendant's agreement to 18 properly handle and safeguard classified information so it is 19 not at risk of compromise 20 A It is 21 Q On what date did she execute the document 22 A On 13 February 2017 23 Q And could you please read paragraph 14 of this document 24 A I make this agreement without any mental reservation or 25 purpose of evasion What are those documents They are acknowledgment of training documents security So not to belabor each and every page -- we'll move Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 21 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 21 1 Q Thank you Now there's a document in here called Policy 2 Acknowledgment Status Report 3 defendant's additional training 4 A Yes it does 5 Q And on or about the 13 th of February does it appear that 6 the defendant went through insider threat awareness training 7 A Yes 8 Q What is an insider threat 9 A An insider threat is an individual who is cleared who was Does this document summon the 10 within the agency employed and is attempting to or revealing 11 classified information to an external party 12 Q So like a Trojan Horse of sorts fifth column I guess 13 A Yes 14 Q Okay 15 additional nondisclosure agreements the defendant executed -- 16 agreements between herself and the United States 17 A They are 18 Q Another one being dated 15 February of this year 19 A Correct 20 Q And finally there is a document dated 15 February of 21 this year dealing with a counseling acknowledgment 22 explain what that relates to 23 A 24 because the defendant mishandled classified information 25 Q The remaining documents in here -- are they Can you This is a counseling statement in which she was counseled So she was found to have mishandled classified and her Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 22 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 22 1 employer once again reminded her of the proper way to handle 2 and safeguard sensitive and classified documents 3 A Yes 4 Q Thank you Special Agent 5 Now I would like to go back to talking about the intelligence 6 reporting that you were notified had been compromised by the 7 government agency 8 that intelligence reporting have anything to do with her job 9 duties or assignment You can set Exhibit 1 aside According to the defendant's employer did 10 A It did not 11 Q But given her level of security clearance would she have 12 had access to it 13 A She would 14 Q How if at all did the government agency that briefed you 15 identify the defendant as a potential suspect in the 16 compromise 17 A 18 been folded in half 19 been printed out and physically taken out of the facility 20 internal audit by the agency revealed that at that time that 21 six individuals had printed out the document 22 only the defendant had had contact on an unclassified 23 government computer with the online news media outlet 24 Subsequent investigation revealed that it was that only two 25 individuals had printed out both the Intelligence Report and The photographs of the document suggested that they had There was a crease suggesting that it had Of those six An Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 23 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 23 1 the attachment 2 Q 3 Intelligence Report and the attachment the defendant 4 A Yes 5 Q And again was she the only one of those two people who 6 appeared to have had any communication with the news media 7 outlet in possession of the report 8 A Yes 9 Q On what date was the defendant found to have printed the Was one of those two people who had printed the 10 report at issue 11 A On May 9 th of 2017 12 Q In addition to the information provided to you on June 1 13 did the FBI receive any additional information suggesting the 14 defendant might be responsible for the leak 15 A Yes we did 16 Q What was that 17 A We interviewed a witness in Tampa Florida who had contact 18 with the online news media outlet during conversations with the 19 online news media outlet 20 Q 21 between the news reporter and a witness in Tampa 22 A Yes 23 Q If you could please take a look at Government's Exhibit 2 24 What is that 25 A Okay So was there a text message exchange back and forth This is a photograph of a cellphone -- of the witness' st Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 24 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 24 1 cellphone and it's a conversation between the witness and the 2 news media outlet 3 Q 4 capture was that sent by the representative of the news media 5 outlet 6 A It was 7 Q And can you read the last sentence of that text message 8 please 9 A Is the text at the bottom of this I guess screen I can Well no If real different convo Was mailed 10 May 10 from Augusta Georgia 11 Q 12 the defendant print the report 13 A May 9 th 14 Q Where was the defendant living in May of 2017 15 A Augusta Georgia 16 Q Based on the information you just described did you 17 obtain a search warrant for the defendant's residence her 18 vehicle and her person on June 3 19 A I did 20 Q Did you and other agents execute the warrant the same day 21 A Yes 22 Q During the execution of the warrant did you meet the 23 defendant 24 A Yes 25 Q And while other agents were searching did the defendant May 10 from Augusta Georgia And again what date did rd of this year Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 25 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 25 1 agree to talk with you about whether she may have mishandled 2 classified information 3 A Yes she did 4 Q How did you document that conversation 5 A The document was audio recorded and a 302 was written 6 Q Would you take a look at Exhibit 3 please and tell us 7 what that is 8 A This is a verbatim transcription of the interview 9 Q Now have you reviewed the entire audio recording of the 10 interview in its entirety 11 A Yes 12 Q Have you compared it with this transcript 13 A I have 14 Q And in your comparison do you believe this is a true and 15 accurate representation of the conversation that you and others 16 had with the defendant on June 3 17 A It is 18 Q Thank you 19 not going to belabor all of the various quotes in that 80-page 20 document 21 evidence that the agents gathered in this case 22 of the search on June 3 rd did agents collect the defendant's 23 cellphone or at least one of them 24 A Yes 25 Q And have you reviewed its contents pursuant to the rd You can set that aside Special Agent We're I would like to talk to you about some other At the outset Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 26 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 26 1 warrant 2 A I have 3 Q I'd like to direct your attention to Exhibit 4 now if you 4 would take a look at that and please tell us what it is 5 A This is a screen shot of a Tweet from a non-press 6 Q And where was it recovered 7 A From the defendant's cellphone 8 Q And on what date does it appear the user of the 9 defendant's cellphone captured this image 10 A On February 7 th of 2017 11 Q What is depicted in the image 12 A It is entitled If you see abuse leak it 13 list of eight media outlets and ways to anonymously submit 14 information 15 Q 16 what two days before the defendant started in her cleared 17 position with Pluribus International and NSA 18 A Correct 19 Q I'd like to also talk to you about the defendant's 20 internet activity on the 9 21 reviewed that as well 22 A I have 23 Q We're not going to offer or refer to that exhibit at this 24 time but can you please describe at an unclassified level what 25 you observed in the defendant's internet history on those And you said this was February 7 It has a th so that would be th through the 22 nd of May Have you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 27 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 27 1 dates 2 A 3 searches on how to anonymously submit information to two news 4 media outlets 5 those news media outlets and information related to potential 6 leaks of classified information 7 Q 8 defendant actually I guess obtained or could have obtained 9 from the web pages she viewed ways to submit anonymously On the 9 th of May we see the defendant researching on web After that date we see several searches for So did it appear -- now when you say on May 9 th -- so the 10 information by mail for instance 11 A Correct 12 Q By internet 13 A Yes 14 Q And through other sorts of secure forms of communication 15 A Yes 16 Q And then in the subsequent days it appeared she was doing 17 internet searches to see if leaked information had been 18 published by those particular media outlets 19 A Correct 20 Q Special Agent at some point following the search that we 21 discussed and the defendant's arrest did you or another agent 22 obtain recorded phonecalls the defendant made from the Lincoln 23 County Jail 24 A Another agent did yes 25 Q If you would look at Exhibit 6 please I believe first Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 28 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 28 1 there is a CD or DVD in there marked 6A 2 A Yes 3 Q Does that contain two audio files that were recorded 4 phonecalls made by the defendant 5 A It does 6 Q And do those audio files -- can you review them 7 A I have 8 Q Do they appear to contain the conversations in their 9 entirety 10 A Yes 11 Q And 6B and C are those transcripts of the two audio files 12 on the disc 6A 13 A They are 14 Q Have you compared them with the original audio recordings 15 A I have 16 Q And are you satisfied that those are true and accurate 17 versions of the conversations in Exhibit 6A 18 A I am 19 MR WHITLEY 20 THE COURT 21 MR WHITLEY Your Honor may I comment I'm sorry You may I understand that this information will 22 be presented ultimately at a trial of this case but I don't 23 know what this information might have to do with the concerns 24 we might have about the flight risk of this individual 25 defendant or any danger she may pose to the community It is Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 29 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 29 1 information that we can't -- we are going to respond to 2 certainly in cross and try to get more information from the 3 agent who is ably testifying but I just wanted to bring that 4 to the attention of the Court just for my purposes 5 it was relevant Thank you 6 THE COURT 7 objection that it's irrelevant 8 9 I thought MR WHITLEY So Mr Whitley are you making an Absolutely Your Honor I don't know if this goes to the core issues that are before the court 10 THE COURT Okay I mean looking through the briefs 11 it appeared that these jail conversations were going to be 12 highlighted because of statements that perhaps could be 13 interpreted as being admissions on the part of the defendant 14 If that's the purpose of presenting these would you agree that 15 goes to the issue of the weight of the evidence for detention 16 purposes 17 MR WHITLEY It does Your Honor It does have some 18 bearing on that certainly However the Court will note and 19 duly appreciate that the government and my learned counsel -- 20 we're not in a position really to rebut or defend much of 21 this because there are certain aspects of CIPA that'll prevent 22 us from access to certain discovery until we are all cleared to 23 have that opportunity to make our request for discovery 24 this is kind of in a posture in the case where we don't have 25 that information So Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 30 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 30 1 THE COURT Well as to the conversation itself that 2 was had between the defendant and her sister and mother that 3 was recorded certainly you have the ability to call those 4 people -- the people who participated in that telephone 5 conversation Is that correct 6 MR WHITLEY 7 THE COURT Thank you Your Honor Okay We do And nothing in CIPA would prevent 8 you then from fully presenting to the court any information 9 concerning the accuracy of these conversations 10 MR WHITLEY No it would not Your Honor 11 THE COURT 12 MR WHITLEY Thank you very much 13 MRS SOLARI Your Honor and I won't belabor them Okay Thank you Thank you 14 In particular 6B goes to the weight of evidence against the 15 defendant and I will say 6C I included because there was some 16 dispute about the actual content of the conversation that was 17 represented at the first hearing and to the extent I may have 18 misrepresented or misconstrued any of that call I sincerely 19 apologize to the Court to counsel and to Ms Winner 20 never my intent to do so 21 wanted the Court to have the full transcript of that 22 conversation so the Court can see for itself how the 23 conversation went 24 25 THE COURT So I won't belabor 6C Okay It was I simply Well I guess formally I need to overrule the objection and allow 6B and C into evidence Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 31 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 31 1 MRS SOLARI 2 Thank you Your Honor Special Agent I'd like to direct your attention to 6B 3 which is a transcript of one of the two phonecalls 4 conversation between the defendant and whom 5 A Britty Winner her sister 6 Q And in some portion of the conversation does the 7 defendant's sister Britty ask the defendant to some extent what 8 this is all about -- her arrest and the whole event 9 A Yes 10 Q And does she ask whether it's because the defendant put a 11 wrong birthday for someone on a security background form 12 A She does 13 Q And how does the defendant respond 14 A No 15 back to me and it's kind of an important one 16 Q 17 This is a I leaked a document and they were able to trace it Thanks Special Agent And Your Honor again we're not going to belabor 6C 18 which is a transcript of another phonecall 19 Court to have it 20 THE COURT I just wanted the Okay 21 Q Again back to the search Special Agent -- the search of 22 the residence -- did agents find notebooks and writings that 23 belonged to the defendant 24 A Yes 25 Q And have you been able to review the contents of those Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 32 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 32 1 notebooks and other writings 2 A Yes I have 3 Q I am going to be talking to you right now about Exhibit 7 4 if you would retrieve that please 5 order -- what is that 6 A 7 handwritten notes regarding employment position 8 Q 9 employments -- it looks like the name of Pluribus That first document in This looks to be handwritten notes taken during -- And does it refer to education cost possible dental 10 International an employee portal link Like you said 11 job-related appointment-related things 12 A Correct 13 Q But in reviewing this particular page did you come across 14 any handwritten notations that were of concern 15 A Yes 16 Q What was that 17 A It was handwritten notes 18 down 19 maybe 20 Q 21 or off the cuff 22 item in order 23 A 24 out the SIM card 25 Q I want to burn the White House Find somewhere in Kurdistan to live or Napal All right Ha ha Well perhaps that was you know said in jest I'd like to direct your attention to the next What does the note on that page pertain to These are notes on how to unlock your cellphone and switch And if one were to follow these instructions and do that Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 33 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 33 1 successfully what would be the practical effect 2 A 3 network 4 account 5 Q 6 card from your phone and insert another one you bought at say 7 Dollar General -- if I were to subpoena your subscriber records 8 would I be able to see what phonecalls you had made or received 9 during the time your original SIM card was missing The practical effect is that you remove yourself from your You can get on either another network a prepaid So if you were to do that for instance -- remove the SIM 10 A No 11 Q Or who had sent you text messages or who you had sent 12 messages to 13 A No 14 Q Now to be sure Special Agent there have to be you know 15 some innocent reasons why people do this -- unlock their 16 phones right 17 A Sure 18 Q What are some of those reasons 19 A If someone doesn't like their cell carrier and they want 20 to switch but they like their phone that's a way to move on to 21 a carrier that you prefer or if you travel overseas and you 22 want to keep your phone that way overseas you can get on their 23 network and use it 24 Q 25 are the notations you see there Okay Fair enough Let's look at the next page What Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 34 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 34 1 A These are instructions on how to download and to set up 2 the preferences for the Tor network 3 Q 4 secure security setting 5 A Yes 6 Q What is Tor 7 A Tor network is a method in which someone can access the 8 internet -- not only the internet but also the deeper dark 9 web on a completely anonymous level And are these how to set the preferences at the most What is the Tor network 10 Q Were agents able to examine the computers that were 11 recovered from the defendant's residence 12 A Yes 13 Q Did any of them have Tor software installed 14 A Yes 15 Q And how many computers 16 A One 17 Q When was the Tor software installed on that computer 18 A On February 1 st of 2017 19 Q What effect does Tor have on whether agents are able to 20 see someone's internet history email history or other 21 activity on their computer during the time they ran the 22 software 23 A 24 activity 25 Q While they're running the software we cannot see any So you wouldn't know if I sent or received emails Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 35 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 35 1 A No 2 Q Or went to particular websites either on the regular 3 internet or the dark web 4 A No 5 Q Made any purchases banking transactions anything like 6 that 7 A No 8 Q We can see nothing 9 A No 10 Q Would you look at the next page please 11 notes pertain to 12 A 13 account 14 Q What is Slippery email 15 A Slippery email is -- it's a -- as per the website it's a 16 one-way burner email that allows you to receive email 17 anonymously that's not linked to your -- it's not linked to you 18 or to any of your other email accounts 19 Q 20 email to someone who had a Slippery com inbox 21 A 22 a couple of different endings to it but it's a completely 23 anonymous email address 24 Q 25 page whether the defendant created or at least had access to a What do those These are -- it's a text string for a Slippery email So what would an address look like if I wanted to send an It is an alphanumeric followed by @slippery net or there's Were you able to tell in analyzing the notations on this Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 36 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 36 1 Slippery com inbox 2 A It appears so yes 3 Q How long do those inboxes last 4 A Eight days 5 Q And at the end of eight days do they essentially 6 self-destruct 7 A They do 8 Q And obliterate all the information contained therein 9 A Correct 10 Q Special Agent Garrick as someone with about 13 years 11 experience in the field of intelligence and 12 counterintelligence did you have any concerns when you viewed 13 in their entirety these notes about switching the SIM cards 14 installing Tor at its high security setting and establishing a 15 self-destructing anonymous inbox at Slippery email 16 A Yes I did 17 Q What concerns did you have 18 A When taken into its totality it appears as though it's a 19 covert communications package or could be one 20 Q A covert communications package being what essentially 21 A That is a way in which an individual can communicate 22 anonymously with another 23 Q 24 handwritten notes 25 A Next page in order please Yes it is Is this another page of Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 37 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 37 1 Q In general what are these about 2 A These appears to be musings regarding the Taliban 3 Q And does the defendant make reference to a couple of 4 different Taliban leaders both I think alive and believed to 5 be deceased 6 A Yes 7 Q And in reference to Mullah Omar and Akhtar Mansour does 8 she state They both understood the need for peace yet were 9 pushed too far by western demand for unconditional surrender 10 A Yes 11 Q Again she's referring to Taliban military leaders 12 A Yes 13 Q Does she also state that Perhaps Bin Laden was the Judas 14 to Omar's Christlike vision of a fundamental Islamic nation 15 A Yes she does 16 Q Thank you Special Agent 17 the defendant's internet search history pertaining to an 18 apparent interest in the Taliban 19 A Yes 20 Q If would you take a look at Exhibit 8 please 21 previously reviewed that exhibit 22 A I have 23 Q And are these excerpts of the defendant's web search 24 history in October November and December of 2016 25 A Yes Now did you find anything in Have you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 38 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 38 1 Q And do you find in there among other searches searches 2 for the Taliban media website 3 A Yes 4 Q Taliban media network 5 A Yes 6 Q I don't know if I am pronouncing this correctly so 7 forgive me 8 A Yes 9 Q -- who is that or what is that 10 A He is a Taliban spokesperson 11 Q Did you find searches for the Taliban office in Qatar 12 A Yes 13 Q Did you find the defendant searching for the Twitter 14 account of that Taliban spokesperson we've just mentioned 15 A Yes 16 Q As well as his Facebook 17 A Yes 18 Q As well as the Taliban's YouTube channel 19 A Yes 20 Q And I'd like to talk to you Special Agent about one 21 other item that was recovered from the defendant's residence 22 during the search on June 3 23 like you to sort of revisit that piece of paper on which you 24 found the Slippery email address 25 content but describe the actual piece of paper on which those This Zabiullah Mujahid -- rd but before we talk about it I'd You've already described the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 39 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 39 1 notes were written 2 A 3 printed at the top and across almost like a calendar 4 Q So was it an unusual size 5 A Yes 6 Q Kind of tiny 7 A Yes 8 Q Okay 9 that in the home It was a small piece of paper torn out with the months Did you find any other pieces of paper just like 10 A Yes 11 Q How many 12 A One other 13 Q Where did you find it 14 A I found it with that other piece of -- that other piece of 15 paper 16 Q 17 address and then the second piece of paper we're about to talk 18 about 19 A Yes 20 Q Did the second piece of paper contain handwritten notes as 21 well 22 A Yes it did 23 Q Now I understand that some of the information is 24 classified in the context of this case and I think you've been 25 presented with a cleared statement that we can present in an So you found a piece of paper with the Slippery email Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 40 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 40 1 unclassified setting If you would refer to the single piece 2 of paper I gave you 3 describe it unclassified please describe what you found on 4 that second piece of notebook paper that was accompanied by 5 these Slippery email notes 6 A 7 information related to foreign intelligence targets associated 8 with terrorism activity being followed by the U S Government 9 as part of its national security mission Again to the extent that you can The defendant's notes contained specific identifying The information 10 which the defendant obtained by virtue of her access to 11 government systems has no logical bearing on or connection to 12 the duties that were assigned to the defendant and should not 13 have been taken outside of U S Government control 14 Q 15 Exhibit 8 for a moment the defendant's internet search 16 history to what places did it appear the defendant was 17 interested in traveling working or living based on her 18 research during that time 19 A 20 territories 21 Q 22 to Erbil 23 A Yes she did 24 Q Did the defendant research buying homes in Jordan 25 A Yes Thank you Special Agent Set that aside Now back to Kurdistan Iraq Afghanistan Jordan Palestinian The defendant actually researched flights to Kurdistan and Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 41 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 41 1 Q Did she query whether she could move to Palestine 2 A Yes 3 Q Among the other searches that you mentioned 4 defendant appear based on your review of her internet usage 5 her communications -- did she appear to have researched or 6 taken any affirmative steps to establish a relationship with 7 Kurdistan 8 A Yes 9 Q What were those 10 A Based off of Facebook messages she told her sister that 11 she was looking to apply for a visa and then she told another 12 individual that she had a visa 13 Q To work in Kurdistan 14 A To visit Kurdistan 15 Q Okay 16 obtain a visa to visit Kurdistan 17 A 18 can actually apply for one when you land at the airport in 19 Erbil 20 Q 21 defendant's internet search history did you find she also 22 researched how to obtain a work visa in Afghanistan 23 A Yes 24 Q Now moving away from the defendant's internet usage for a 25 minute I'd like to take you back to the defendant's security Did the Is that an exceptionally difficult thing to do to Based off of internet searches it appears as though you And on or about December 10 2016 again based on the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 42 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 42 1 training with Pluribus International which I think you 2 testified began on February 9 2017 3 reviewing the defendant's communications any comments the 4 defendant made about that training 5 A Yes 6 Q If you could look at Exhibit 9 please 7 8 Did you notice in She did THE COURT Actually I think at least in my notebook Exhibit 9 was the internet searches that we just covered 9 MRS SOLARI I'm sorry Your Honor 10 your notebook 11 extraction report that contains a single -- That should be 8 and then 9 should be an 12 THE COURT 13 MRS SOLARI 14 I goofed in All right -- message I will fix that for Your Honor 15 THE COURT Okay No That's okay I am fine 16 Q So Exhibit 9 in the box you have -- I may have it 17 in different folders and I'm sorry about that 18 A 19 and it's a Facebook message 20 Q And what was the date the defendant sent this message 21 A On February 9 th of 2017 22 Q And did she send it to her sister Britty Winner 23 A Yes 24 Q Could you read it aloud please 25 A I just had my security training and the security officer What is that It is an Extraction Report from the defendant's cellphone Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 43 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 43 1 was talking about threats and how the insider threat is 2 actually the largest and it was hard not to laugh when he was 3 like 'Yeah so we have guys like Edward Snowden who thought 4 they were doing the right thing but you know they weren't 5 so we have to keep an eye out for that insider threat 6 especially with contractors ' 7 Q And the defendant was in fact a contractor at that time 8 A Yes 9 Q But she said it was hard not to laugh when she was 10 actually counseled in her security training about that insider 11 threat 12 A Yes 13 Q If you could look at Exhibit 10 14 Exhibit 10 although I still wish for it to be admitted but 15 in the interest of time let's go to Exhibit 11 16 address that one just to give it some context Special Agent 17 was the defendant required to take polygraph examinations to 18 maintain her clearance with Pluribus 19 A Yes 20 Q Had she done that as of May 9 2017 21 A No not yet 22 Q Was she granted some sort of conditional clearance and 23 access 24 A Yes 25 Q Did you see in the defendant's cellphone history any Actually let's skip Before we Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 44 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 44 1 conversation about her upcoming polygraph exam 2 A Yes 3 Q Now again referring you to Exhibit 11 4 first message I'd like to talk about the chain following the 5 first message 6 conversation chain 7 A This is February 25 2017 8 Q So just I guess a couple of weeks after the defendant 9 started work Skipping that What is the date of this chain -- the 10 A Yes 11 Q And again is this a conversation with her sister Britty 12 A Yes 13 Q If you could read what the defendant wrote in this 14 conversation I will read the other responses 15 A 16 I've ever plotted against the government #gonnafail 17 Q LOL 18 A Look I only say I hate America like three times a day 19 I'm no radical 20 with air conditioning 21 Q But you don't actually hate America right 22 A I mean yeah I do 23 happen to the planet 24 the environment 25 Q I have to take a polygraph where they're going to ask if Just convince yourself you are writing a novel It's mostly just about Americans' obsession Thank you Agent It's literally the worst thing to We invented capitalism the downfall of You can set that aside Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 45 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 45 1 MR BELL Excuse me 2 MRS SOLARI 3 MR BELL 4 MRS SOLARI 5 MR BELL Which exhibit is that Eleven unless I've --- I was on 12 Eleven Okay It starts there Okay 6 Q Have you ever heard of something called Vault 7 7 A Yes 8 Q Is that WikiLeaks alleged compromise of classified 9 government information 10 A Yes it is 11 Q Did you see anything in the defendant's chats about Vault 12 7 13 A Yes I did 14 Q Let's look at Exhibit 12 please 15 conversation between the defendant and her sister 16 A Yes it is 17 Q On March 7 th of this year 18 A Correct 19 Q And if you could read the portions written by the 20 defendant 21 A Vault 7 22 Q OMG 23 A It's so awesome though 24 Q So you're on Assange's side 25 A Yes Is this another That Vault 7 stuff is scary too And Snowden They just crippled the program Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 46 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 46 1 Q Now we established that this conversation happened on the 2 7 th of March 2017 3 search history any searches of note on that same date 4 A Yes 5 Q What was that 6 A Tor email 7 Q Thank you 8 I think we're nearly done here -- and talk about the 9 defendant's employment prior to her time with Pluribus Did you see in the defendant's internet Now let's go back just a little bit further -- 10 International and the NSA How was the defendant previously 11 employed 12 A She served in the U S Air Force 13 Q And her rank was that of a Senior Airman 14 A Correct 15 Q What was her general nature of her military assignment 16 A She was a linguist 17 Q And did she maintain a security clearance in that 18 capacity 19 A Yes 20 Q At what level 21 A Top Secret SCI 22 Q Essentially the same clearance that she maintained when 23 she worked for Pluribus and the NSA 24 A Yes 25 Q If you could turn your attention to Exhibit 13 please Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 47 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 47 1 Are the beginning documents in this series the defendant's 2 email in which she submits her active duty member exit 3 questionnaire 4 A Yes 5 Q And what was the date she submitted her questionnaire 6 according to the email 7 A Thursday August 25 2016 8 Q And according to her exit questionnaire at that time how 9 many years of total service had the defendant had in the Air 10 Force 11 A Total years six 12 Q And when was she planning to begin her terminal leave 13 A November 18 2016 14 Q And just for people who may not have had a government or 15 military job is terminal leave essentially when someone's 16 period of active duty obligation has not run out but they 17 simply leave before that date because they have so much stored 18 leave they are just going to go ahead and go -- 19 A Yes 20 Q -- probably not to return 21 A Yes 22 Q Okay 23 defendant what were her career plans following active duty 24 A Fitness instructor 25 Q I'd like you to turn to the next document in order which In this exit questionnaire according to the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 48 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 48 1 is captioned National Security Agency Access Termination 2 Statement 3 A 4 your accesses and you still agree that you have to abide by the 5 nondisclosure agreements that you previously signed 6 Q 7 never have a security clearance again you promise that you'll 8 never ever disclose that classified information you learned 9 while you did that Just in general what is this It's basically you're being what we call read out of So even if you never returned to government service or 10 A Correct 11 Q All right 12 cleared position our access to classified has to be cut off 13 right 14 A Correct 15 Q Okay 16 defendant read out of her classified access 17 A 15 November 2016 18 Q Now in the course of your investigation have you 19 discovered any workplace activity by the defendant in the days 20 prior to November 16 th -- I'm sorry November 15 2016 -- that 21 seemed to be any cause for concern 22 A Yes 23 Q What was that 24 A On or about November 9 th of 2016 on a Top Secret computer 25 the defendant Googled something to the effect of Does a top But at some point when each of us leaves our So based on the date of this document when was the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 49 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 49 1 secret computer detect a thumb drive At that point she 2 inserted a thumb drive into the computer for approximately two 3 minutes 4 Q 5 conclusively whether the defendant was able to move any data 6 onto that thumb drive 7 A No 8 Q Did the government ever recover the thumb drive 9 A No 10 Q Are you aware of something in particular the defendant did 11 right after she removed the thumb drive from the Top Secret 12 computer 13 one 14 A Yes 15 Q Cleared for unclassified use 16 A Correct 17 Q What is that 18 A Winner printed an Intelligence Report that was classified 19 at the Top Secret level 20 not associated in any way with the defendant's 21 duties assignments and we do not know what she did with it 22 Q 23 that October November December timeframe reflected in the 24 defendant's web history which should be Exhibit 8 25 just testified the defendant stated in Exhibit 13 she was Has the government's review of system logs determined And I believe you have a scripted answer to that It's a scripted answer provided The classified intel reporting was Thank you Special Agent Now back for just a moment to Now you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 50 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 50 1 planning to be a fitness instructor when she left the Air 2 Force 3 activity she seemed to turn her attention in earnest to jobs 4 involving access to classified information 5 A Yes 6 Q Would that have been about mid-November of 2016 7 A In earnest in mid-November 8 Q Okay 9 she searching for positions requiring clearances such as Did there come a time though judging from her online And during that time and after into December was 10 linguists intel analysts signals intelligence specialist 11 counterintelligence support specialist and lots of jobs listed 12 on Clearancejobs com and similar sites 13 A Yes 14 Q And were those positions listed both in the U S and 15 overseas 16 A Yes 17 Q Was that during the same time the defendant was 18 researching Taliban social media and how to follow Taliban 19 spokespersons online 20 A Yes 21 Q Did you also find amidst all these searches for cleared 22 jobs particularly on or about November 28 2016 the defendant 23 entered a search strain to her browser How to support 24 Anonymous 25 A Yes Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 51 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 51 1 Q Did she then view a page called How to join Anonymous 2 A Yes 3 Q What is Anonymous 4 A Anonymous is a list affiliation of hackers 5 Q Based on your experience as an investigator are they 6 known to be generally friendly to the U S or its intelligence 7 community 8 A No 9 Q Now finally Special Agent the defendant's motion 10 mentioned some I guess deterioration of her physical 11 condition because of the quality of her diet at the Lincoln 12 County Jail 13 a kosher diet 14 jail about how they are attempting to accommodate that 15 A Yes I have 16 Q And what did they tell you 17 A They said that they're making special trips to the grocery 18 store for additional food 19 Q 20 like that 21 A Fruit cups various items 22 Q And did you have occasion recently to physically review 23 some of the defendant's outgoing mail from the jail 24 A Yes 25 Q And particularly if you look at Exhibit 14 were these I think we understand she is vegan and maintains Have you personally spoken with anyone at the So are they buying her things like fresh fruit things Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 52 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 52 1 letters dated 11 September and 18 September of this year 2 A Yes 3 Q And in some of the letters -- the first one for instance 4 does the defendant say Dinner was pretty dope 5 corn and canned fruit 6 my spirituality in here with regards to my diet 7 A Yes 8 Q In another letter does the defendant tell a fellow inmate 9 that the women get double patties twice the cake she gets Lots of peas I am grateful to be able to maintain 10 canned tropical fruit twice a day leftover grits from 11 breakfast with peanut butter for lunch 12 A Yes 13 Q Now she mentions she still can't digest bread 14 know what the jail has done to accommodate that 15 A 16 from breakfast for lunch 17 Q 18 folks at the jail based on your conversations with them 19 appear to be basically going above and beyond to satisfy the 20 defendant's dietary needs and preferences 21 A Yes 22 Q And based on these letters would you say that the 23 defendant appears to be quite pleased with the results 24 A Yes 25 Q And do you know whether the defendant is also able to Do you For the bread one of the things was the giving her grits Okay So instead of bread now she gets grits So do the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 53 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Direct by Mrs Solari 53 1 complete her workout regimen 2 She practices yoga all that stuff 3 A Yes 4 Q Okay 5 ability to do any of that either 6 A Not that I'm aware of 7 Q All right 8 9 10 11 You know she's a CrossFit fan She is able to work out So there is no I guess infringement on her Thank you Special Agent If I may have a brief moment Your Honor THE COURT You may MRS SOLARI Take your time Thank you Your Honor That's all the government has for Special Agent Garrick at this time 12 THE COURT 13 MR BELL All right Mr Bell Your Honor I don't know what -- if the 14 Court intends a break but it might be a good time to take a 15 break because we've covered an awful lot in this short time 16 THE COURT 17 MR BELL 18 19 Right If we could have a few minutes we'd appreciate it THE COURT Sure If you need some time to prepare 20 for cross examination then I'll give you that 21 nice if we could not take more than 15 minutes but just let 22 Mrs Widener know when you're ready and we'll reconvene 23 MR BELL 24 A break is taken 25 THE COURT Okay That should be fine Mr Bell It would be Thank you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 54 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 54 1 MR BELL Yes Thank you Your Honor C R O SS -EX A M IN ATIO N 2 3 BY MR BELL 4 Q 5 you -- FBI agent 6 A Yes sir 7 Q And certainly in something such as counterintelligence 8 that's a very important area of FBI work today is it not 9 A Yes sir it is 10 Q And you certainly -- when you do report you want to get 11 the whole story and not just pick and choose little bits that 12 might give a very inaccurate picture 13 A Yes sir 14 Q You're not here as an advocate 15 truth-teller are you not 16 A Correct sir 17 Q And I bet you've even heard that famous old Ben Franklin 18 phrase that half a truth can be a whole lie 19 A I think I've heard that before sir yes 20 Q You agree with that don't you 21 A Yes sir 22 Q In fact sometimes you have to interview people at great 23 length before you get the whole truth and not just little 24 snippets that might lead to a very different conclusion 25 correct Agent Garrick you take your job quite seriously don't You agree don't you You're here as a Is that correct Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 55 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 55 1 A Yes sir 2 Q Now you talked about Reality being in the Air Force 3 correct 4 A Yes sir 5 Q Six years 6 A Yes sir 7 Q Did not mention that she got an honorable discharge did 8 you 9 A I did not say her discharge 10 Q Okay 11 her work in the Air Force 12 A I did not 13 Q Okay 14 A I believe she received a commendation yes 15 Q Okay 16 A Yes 17 Q Okay 18 that she -- and her mail and everything else in her house -- 19 that she has expressed interest in perhaps going into the 20 Peace Corps at some time 21 A Yes yes 22 Q But did not mention that 23 A No 24 Q And you don't think it's anything questionable for a 25 person -- American citizen or veteran honorably discharged Did you tell us about any commendations she got for Could you tell us about them She freely left correct Are you aware from looking at the various documents Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 56 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 56 1 serving their country -- to want to go work for the Peace Corps 2 and perhaps help the less fortunate in a foreign land -- the 3 American Peace Corps 4 A Correct 5 Q And you didn't mention that did you 6 A No I did not 7 Q Okay 8 organization named Médecins Sans Frontières is 9 A That is Doctors Without Borders 10 Q That is correct 11 normally use the English one here 12 has expressed interest in going to work with Doctors Without 13 Borders -- Médecins Sans Frontières 14 A I don't remember any specifics about it 15 Q Okay 16 organization to be 17 A 18 non-governmental non-profit that goes to areas with either war 19 zones or the like or famine to do medical work 20 Q It's certainly not a terrorist organization is it 21 A No 22 Q Though the people who work with that may well be putting 23 their own lives in danger to help those in great need correct 24 A Correct 25 Q And could be the same way with the Peace Corps correct Are you aware that -- do you know what an It is a French-based organization We Are you aware that Reality And tell me what do you understand that It's -- as I understand Doctors Without Borders is a Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 57 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 57 1 A Correct 2 Q Do you -- are you aware that some of these 3 non-governmental and I think maybe even the Peace Corps -- if 4 you're coming out of the service for some reason they would 5 generally not take you for about a year after you're discharged 6 from the service 7 A I wasn't aware of that 8 Q Okay 9 these do-gooder foreign organizations in the dangerous and But you were aware that Reality had an interest in 10 perhaps most needy part of the world 11 A Yes 12 Q Okay 13 this does she 14 A Correct 15 Q And when she was indicted y'all had seized all of her 16 computers all of her old cellphones and had gone through her 17 house tip to top correct 18 A Correct 19 Q And yet I think the day after that or two days after she 20 was indicted is that correct 21 A I don't remember the exact date of the indictment but -- 22 Q Okay 23 A -- in the days and a couple weeks following 24 Q She was indicted before you had gone through all of these 25 computers and cellphones in her house is that correct Now Reality doesn't have any criminal record before Maybe three or four days Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 58 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 58 1 A Correct 2 Q And she was -- in fact the prior pretrial release hearing 3 occurred before you had been able to go through and analyze 4 every computer and every cellphone and every scrap of paper in 5 her house correct 6 A Correct 7 Q And she has now been reindicted hasn't she 8 A Correct 9 Q And it's the exact same charge for which she was indicted 10 the first time correct 11 A Correct 12 Q Now we've talked a lot -- we heard a lot about these SIM 13 cards in cellular telephones and her having instructions how to 14 take one out and put one back in is that correct 15 A Correct 16 Q How many times have you taken a SIM card out of one of 17 your cellphones 18 A 19 never swapped a SIM card out on a phone 20 Q You haven't 21 A No sir 22 Q The last time my cellphone broke they sent me a new one 23 and with instructions on how to take the SIM card out of that 24 and put it in a new one 25 some evidence of future illegal activity when I put the old I don't think I ever have I am trying to think I have Was I doing something sinister or Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 59 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 59 1 card in the new phone 2 A No sir 3 Q Okay 4 cellphones and often he travels the world 5 cards in different countries and put them in 6 anything sinister or wrong 7 A No sir 8 Q Should there be any inference that an American who changes 9 a cellphone card or perhaps even has instructions how to take My son works for NBC News He has several He'll get different Is he doing 10 the card out of one phone and put it in another or just change 11 cards is doing something -- is likely to flee the United States 12 and hide from prosecution 13 A 14 consideration that is not in and of itself alarming 15 Q 16 your -- things that are on your computer 17 A Yes 18 Q You have concerns about data breaches of perhaps your 19 banking relations and your financial things 20 A Sure 21 Q Okay 22 Google somebody is recording where you are and what you're 23 looking at and selling that information to others who might 24 have some use of it 25 A When just -- when just the SIM card is taken into Okay Now do you have any concern about data breaches of Do you have concerns that perhaps every time you do I'm not overly concerned but there's -- Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 60 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 60 1 Q Uh-huh 2 A -- always a possibility 3 Q Okay 4 whether it's a car or a mattress on your computer for weeks 5 thereafter you keep getting popped you know ads for that 6 particular mattress or that particular type of car on your 7 computer when you just go to Google 8 A I guess it's the way that Google works 9 Q Okay Does it comfort you that if you look up something They're selling -- they're telling you what you're 10 looking at what you're doing where you are all the time 11 Right 12 A 13 their software 14 Q 15 government but big brother Google is watching everything I do 16 and everything I look at on the internet and I don't like it -- 17 is that evidence that I intend to commit a felony in the 18 future 19 A No 20 Q Is it evidence that I intend to flee the United States and 21 not show up for a court appearance such as I was required to 22 show up for this court hearing today 23 A No 24 Q Okay 25 A No They do have software I don't know the ins and outs of Now if I found that offensive that not big brother the Is it evidence of guilt of any kind Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 61 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 61 1 Q Now we've heard Tor and dark web both at the first hearing 2 and at this one 3 A 4 the web and act completely anonymously 5 Q 6 are what time it is and what you're looking at on your 7 computer the way Google and Yahoo do 8 A Correct 9 Q Do you know how many American citizens have used the Tell me what you know about Tor Tor is a very strong anonymizer that allows you to go on In other words it doesn't produce the data of where you 10 privacy they can get from using Tor 11 A I do not have that number 12 Q Isn't it true that it's in the millions 13 A I don't know that number either way 14 Q Now is there any evidence of intent to commit espionage if 15 somebody wants to be able to get on their computer without big 16 brother Google knowing everything they're looking at 17 A No 18 Q And did you before you testified and before you told us 19 about the evils of Tor website do any research into how many 20 legitimate uses there are for that 21 A I did not research legitimate uses of Tor 22 Q Okay 23 American citizens use it because they want a little privacy 24 A No I did not 25 Q And do you have blinds or curtains at your home That alone is not the indicator No And you didn't research how many just ordinary Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 62 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 62 1 A Yes 2 Q And do you close those when you don't want folks looking 3 in your window 4 A Yes 5 Q It's nice to have some privacy isn't it 6 A Yes 7 Q And you aren't doing anything evil or sinister and nothing 8 like that should be drawn because you want some privacy do 9 you 10 A Correct 11 Q And the fact if Reality may do what an awful lot of young 12 people do today who are far more computer literate than am I 13 and most folks my age of wanting to be able to simply get on 14 the computer without big brother spying on everything you're 15 doing -- is that anything wrong 16 A Could you phrase the question again 17 Q Well let me just ask you this 18 is 19 A Yes 20 Q You got children 21 A Too young for Snapchat 22 Q Okay 23 A As I understand it it is a messaging service where you 24 can send photos to one another temporary fashion 25 Q Okay I'm sorry Do you know what Snapchat Well tell us what Snapchat is An awful lot of young people -- people my kids' age Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 63 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 63 1 and younger than that -- they use Snapchat do they not 2 A I believe so 3 Q Many of them far prefer it to Facebook do they not 4 A If you say so 5 Q And isn't that because you can send somebody something and 6 after a certain short period of time it disappears so that 7 you're not ending up with these Facebook pages that just where 8 the whole world has access to everything you did and every 9 silly picture and perhaps things you -- silly things and old 10 boyfriends and old girlfriends and everything else Is that 11 anything wrong if somebody uses Snapchat 12 A No 13 Q And going back to Tor if somebody wants to use a browser 14 where the whole world doesn't get your information and then 15 sells it to everybody like Google and Yahoo and these others 16 are doing -- Bing -- is that any evidence of criminal conduct 17 A Taken in a specific instance no 18 Q Okay 19 counterintelligence 20 A 21 present 22 Q 23 been involved in in that period of time 24 A 25 exact number Now how many years is this that you've been in I have been in counterintelligence 2008 2009 to the Okay And how many separate cases of espionage have you It's been a significant number I couldn't give you the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 64 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 64 1 Q Well try to take a moment and think because I want to 2 know whether it's 5 3 or 500 3 us As accurate as you can feel comfortable with 4 A You're referring to overall counterintelligence 5 investigations 6 Q I'm talking about espionage 7 A Okay 8 assisted with probably 10 to 12 9 Q Okay I think it would be helpful to To include other cases that I've worked on and And how many of those resulted in an indictment for 10 espionage 11 A For espionage just one 12 Q Okay 13 A Correct 14 Q Okay 15 contact who is a first offender American citizen 16 honorably-discharged veteran with commendations who was denied 17 pretrial release on an espionage charge 18 A That is correct 19 Q Okay 20 espionage to mean 21 22 Is that Reality's So you don't know of anybody that you've been in Now tell me what do you understand the word MRS SOLARI That's a legal question 23 THE COURT 24 MR BELL 25 Objection Your Honor Sustained Your Honor I think he's given all this testimony about guilt If he doesn't know what espionage is I Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 65 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 65 1 think it goes to his competency on these other issues 2 THE COURT 3 MR BELL It is sustained I understand 4 Q Do you understand that Reality has been indicted under the 5 Espionage Act of 1917 6 A Correct 7 Q Now do you have any information about Reality ever having 8 been involved in a violent altercation 9 A No 10 Q Have you any information of Reality ever as much as 11 pointing a firearm to another -- at another human being 12 A No 13 Q Do you have any information that would cause you to fear 14 that Reality would hold up a liquor store if on pretrial 15 release 16 A No 17 Q Do you have any information that would lead you to think 18 that she might rob burglarize someone else's house 19 A No 20 Q And you have absolutely no suspicion that she would be 21 engaged in drug deals or anything like that if released on 22 pretrial -- if given pretrial release 23 A No 24 Q You've talked -- have you talked with her mother 25 A On a couple of occasions yes Yes Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 66 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 66 1 Q Have you any reason to believe that she -- Reality -- does 2 not have strong ties to her mother 3 A I believe she does 4 Q Okay 5 her mother has ever engaged in any illegal or criminal 6 activity 7 A I don't know her criminal history 8 Q Okay 9 someone being dangerous or not And have you ever any reason to suspect at all that Have you any reason -- we hear about evidence of Any evidence to think that 10 anyone in Reality's family is engaging in illegal criminal 11 conduct such as drug dealing or something 12 A I'm not aware of any 13 Q Okay 14 A I've never personally met her but I'm aware of her 15 sister 16 Q Okay 17 A I didn't know it was pharmacology 18 Q And are you aware that Reality has strong ties with her 19 sister 20 A Yes 21 Q And likewise do you know what her stepfather did who 22 really raised her 23 A 24 previous hearing 25 Q And do you know her sister Are you aware her sister has a PhD in pharmacology I know it was a PhD I do believe I remember his employment based off of a Tell us what that was Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 67 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 67 1 A I believe it was substance abuse counseling 2 Q Okay 3 A I believe so 4 Q Okay 5 ties to him 6 A I believe so 7 Q Okay 8 him of any criminal or illegal activity on an ongoing basis 9 A No 10 Q Okay 11 leaving the United States illegally 12 A No 13 Q Do you have any information about her ever entering the 14 United States illegally 15 A No 16 Q You mentioned that she inquired about travel to Jordan 17 A Yes 18 Q Okay 19 perhaps in the future working in the Peace Corps in Jordan or 20 some other area of the Middle East 21 A 22 either way on what location she wanted 23 Q 24 mid-Eastern languages do you not 25 A He's trying to help folks who need help right And are you aware whether or not Reality has strong Yes And you certainly don't have any reason to suspect Now have you any information about Reality ever Are you aware of her having an interest in I know the Peace Corps I don't know any information You are aware that she speaks and reads and writes several Yes Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 68 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 68 1 Q If she were in the Peace Corps wouldn't it be logical to 2 expect the Peace Corps would strongly consider assigning her to 3 places where she can use her unique language skills 4 A 5 they send people 6 Q But that would make sense wouldn't it 7 A It might seem logical 8 Q Okay 9 time have you not You'd have to ask the Peace Corps how they decide where Now you've been in counterintelligence for a long 10 A Yes sir 11 Q Do you have any interest in knowing what it is that the 12 bad guys are doing 13 A Yes 14 Q I bet you've spent hours and hours reading books studies 15 maybe even online reading about the entities that might be 16 posing a threat to the United States have you not 17 A I have 18 Q Okay 19 A No 20 Q Would it be anything wrong if you did it at home 21 A It may not be the best idea but it's not illegal 22 Q Okay 23 Mr Garrick are about to commit a future crime or fail to show 24 up for court because you want to know about these entities that 25 you're working against in your work is it I was on my work computer Never at home And certainly there is no evidence that you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 69 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 69 1 A Correct 2 Q Now are you aware of the presence -- now we heard the word 3 Taliban a lot correct 4 A Correct 5 Q Tell us who is the Taliban 6 A Taliban is a designated terrorist organization that's 7 based in Afghanistan and was in control of Afghanistan prior to 8 the 2001 -- the attacks of September 11 9 Q Okay th Have you ever read the book Charlie Wilson's 10 War 11 A About half of it 12 Q Did you see the movie 13 A I did 14 Q Do you know Charlie Wilson was a real congressman from 15 Texas 16 A Yes 17 Q Did you know that he was a close friend of Doug Barnard 18 who used to be the congressman from Augusta Georgia 19 A I was not aware of that 20 Q Okay 21 said Charlie Wilson could strut sitting in a chair 22 know what the United States Government was doing in Charlie 23 Wilson's War 24 A Yes 25 Q They were funding millions of dollars --- And certainly would be aware that Doug Barnard Now do you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 70 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 70 1 MRS SOLARI Your Honor I am not sure of the 2 relevance of this line of inquiry to the defendant's flight 3 risk or risk of danger to the community 4 THE COURT 5 MR BELL Mr Bell Your Honor they have made their case on 6 the Taliban and I think there are two sides to the story and 7 I'd like to bring it out 8 9 10 THE COURT We've had half the story Well certainly we want to explore the full story today but I am not sure how Ms Winner's story relates to Charlie Wilson's story 11 MR BELL I am worrying about Mr Garrick's story 12 that anybody who has interest in the Taliban must be a threat 13 of future criminal acts or flight and that's what they put it 14 up on and I want to explore it 15 THE COURT That's why I'm exploring it Well let's focus on this case and his 16 testimony and not so much Charlie Wilson's War and the book and 17 movie 18 19 20 21 MR BELL Whatever -- let me make a one-sentence proffer THE COURT I guess just get to the point Ask him a question that you're trying to get to -- 22 MR BELL 23 THE COURT 24 MR BELL 25 THE COURT Okay -- instead of going around the bend -Okay -- and talking about Hollywood Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 71 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 71 1 Q Isn't it true that the United States Government financed 2 the Taliban in their efforts to throw the Russians out of 3 control in Afghanistan 4 MRS SOLARI Your Honor again I object 5 really not sure whether this witness has any firsthand 6 knowledge of that 7 fact be classified 8 MR BELL 9 THE COURT 10 classified part 11 I am To the extent that he might it may in I would rather not get into that I read the book and movie Right I am not worried about the I am worried about the relevance MR BELL Okay Well I mean the inference is if 12 you look on a website about the Taliban you must be a flight 13 risk or something and I think there is a much richer story 14 there 15 THE COURT Well I think it is best to maybe ask him 16 direct questions that relate more to the case and then if you 17 want to argue that in closing you're welcome to do that 18 MR BELL 19 THE COURT Okay If I could get one more question Sure 20 Q 21 has skyrocketed since the United States has wrested control of 22 Afghanistan from the Taliban 23 24 25 Are you aware that the export of opium from Afghanistan MRS SOLARI Your Honor I can't understand the relevance of that THE COURT Sustained Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 72 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 72 1 Q Okay Would you agree with me that somebody showing 2 interest and wanting to learn more about the Taliban good and 3 bad and that complex land of Afghanistan is absolutely no 4 evidence that they're going to commit a future crime in the 5 United States 6 A Correct 7 Q And you would agree with me that the fact that someone 8 particularly whose work involves it and they speak the 9 languages might have a lot of interest in learning about 10 things going on in that complex land of Afghanistan including 11 the Taliban is no evidence that they intend to flee the United 12 States 13 A Sure 14 Q Now have you -- have you ever heard from any public 15 sources -- not drawn from any confidential --- 16 MRS SOLARI Your Honor may I ask for a quick 17 timeout Your Honor 18 addressed here and I just want to make sure it's okay for this 19 forum 20 THE COURT 21 I think there is an exhibit about to be You may And while she's doing that Mr Whitley slipped you a 22 note I don't know if you saw that or not 23 have covered it up 24 MR BELL 25 THE COURT I think you may You're right Your Honor Thank you You were so focused on cross you didn't Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 73 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 73 1 see him do it 2 MR BELL 3 MRS SOLARI 4 THE COURT 6 terms of that issue 7 upstairs -- 8 MR BELL 9 THE COURT 10 MR BELL 11 THE COURT 12 MR BELL Okay Well I think that's enough in We can certainly reconvene his testimony Okay We'll do that -- to handle anything that might I'll move past that Okay I'll represent I do not believe so because she hasn't heard what questions I would ask 14 THE COURT 15 MR BELL 16 THE COURT 17 I think we may be about to go into matters that would require a classified forum Your Honor 5 13 Okay Well look I'd rather --Okay That's fine When we're dealing with classified information -- 18 MR BELL 19 THE COURT We're good -- I'd rather act out of an abundance of 20 caution and certainly we'll give you in that classified 21 setting the opportunity to ask him anything you want to about 22 those documents and issues but for this purpose let me 23 exercise caution 24 Q Mr Garrick have you ever traveled abroad 25 A Yes Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 74 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 74 1 Q Do you like traveling abroad 2 A I do 3 Q Do you hope to do a lot more in the future if you can 4 A One day 5 Q Okay 6 A A good portion of it 7 Q Okay 8 A For work yes 9 Q Okay Where all -- would you like to see the whole world And have you ever traveled to the Middle East And is there anything wrong about wanting to travel 10 the world to see the world and perhaps even the Middle East 11 A No 12 Q And that certainly is not evidence that someone intends 13 to engage in espionage is it 14 A Correct 15 Q And it's certainly not evidence that they intend to flee 16 the United States and never return 17 A No 18 Q Okay 19 court hearing is it 20 A I don't see how the two are related but okay 21 Q Now we live in a country with a lot of different political 22 views do we not 23 A We do 24 Q Do you know what the term tree hugger means 25 A Yes Certainly not evidence they wouldn't show up for a Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 75 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 75 1 Q And what does that mean to you 2 A An environmentalist 3 Q Okay 4 environment and for some people that is they care deeply do 5 they not 6 A Correct 7 Q With very strong feelings do they not 8 A Yes 9 Q Many feel correctly or incorrectly that the United And there are some people who care about the 10 States as the largest industrial country not only in the world 11 but that the world has ever known is contributing excessively 12 to climate damage are they not 13 A They are 14 Q Okay 15 you agree with me there are a lot of people who believe that 16 sincerely do you not 17 A Sure 18 Q Now the fact that someone is a deeply-committed 19 environmentalist is that any evidence that they intend to flee 20 the United States 21 A No 22 Q And the fact that someone is a deeply-committed 23 environmentalist is that any evidence that they are unwilling 24 to show up for court 25 A No Now regardless of whether or not you agree with me Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 76 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 76 1 Q And is the fact that someone is a deeply-committed 2 environmentalist evidence that they're going to -- if on 3 pretrial release commit some crime -- sell drugs burglarize 4 steal -- is it 5 A No 6 Q And you will agree with me that Reality no longer has 7 access to confidential information does she 8 A 9 facilities She does not have access to current U S Government 10 Q Period Confidential or no confidential 11 A She doesn't have access to classified facilities 12 Q Now and you've gone through all of her computers have you 13 not 14 A Yes we have 15 Q And you've gone through all of her cellphones have you 16 not 17 A Correct 18 Q And you've gone through every scrap of paper you could 19 find out of her home have you not 20 A Correct 21 Q Now how many computers have you in your home whether you 22 are using them or not 23 A Two 24 Q You use both of them 25 A No Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 77 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 77 1 Q Okay 2 create suspicion that you're about to do something illegal 3 A No 4 Q How many cellphones have you in your house if you know 5 Does the fact that you have more than one computer MRS SOLARI Your Honor I don't think we need to do 6 this The government agrees that someone's possession of more 7 than one cellphone doesn't indicate necessarily that they're 8 dangerous or won't show up for a court appearance 9 10 MR BELL It's a welcome change 11 12 Thank you very much Now what that -- how much time did you spend with Reality the day y'all came out with the search warrants 13 THE WITNESS All in all I would say a few hours 14 Q Okay Did she attempt to flee 15 A No 16 Q What would you have done had she attempted to flee 17 A She was free to go 18 Q Did you ever tell her she was free to go 19 A I told her that her interaction with us was voluntary 20 Q Did you tell her she was free to go sir 21 A No I did not 22 Q Okay 23 running you would not have pursued her 24 A 25 warrant -- letting her know why we were there if she didn't She could have left And are you telling us that if she had taken off After the execution of the initial warrant -- search Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 78 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 78 1 want to be there then no 2 Q Now the warrant included a search of her person correct 3 A Correct 4 Q And you can't -- tell us what search of a person means 5 when it's directed towards a female person 6 A 7 was a cellphone -- if she didn't want to hand over the 8 cellphone 9 Q A search of her person was put in there just in case there Tell me what -- I didn't ask why What all can the 10 government do when they have a search warrant to search 11 someone's person 12 MRS SOLARI Your Honor I object to the relevance 13 of this and to the extent it requires a Fourth Amendment primer 14 I don't know that we need that here 15 THE COURT 16 MR BELL What is the relevance to detention Your Honor I think she's got -- they've 17 got an unexecuted search warrant of a person and I think it -- 18 well let me just keep going and I'll come back to it 19 gone into all of this stuff the res gestae and we're going 20 into the same thing they're going into but I am trying to get 21 the whole story instead of just the tidbits brought out 22 THE COURT They've I am trying to understand how this 23 execution of the search warrant relates to the detention issues 24 we're addressing today and certainly Mrs Solari spent a lot 25 of time with the agent but every single question I remember Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 79 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 79 1 them asking pertained to the issue of detention specifically 2 whether she's a flight risk danger to the community et 3 cetera 4 Q 5 were there 6 A No 7 Q Did she show any desire to flee 8 A No 9 Q Were you ever fearful that she was going the flee 10 A She made no attempts 11 other 12 Q 13 person 14 A No 15 Q Have you any reason to think that Reality Winner is a 16 dangerous person 17 A Physical danger no 18 Q Now you referred to a Slippery com computer thing 19 A Slippery email 20 Q Excuse me 21 people use that 22 A I do not 23 Q And it allows you to get emails without creating a 24 permanent record right 25 A This seems to be outside of the scope of that Well let me ask you did she attempt to flee while you I wasn't fearful one way or the Were you fearful for your life that she was some dangerous Correct Slippery email Now do you know how many Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 80 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 80 1 Q And when you receive a phonecall and talk to somebody you 2 don't keep a recording device on your telephone do you 3 A No 4 Q Okay 5 every telephone call conversation you have do you 6 A No I don't 7 Q In fact you don't do any do you 8 A No 9 Q Okay And you don't keep a permanent record verbatim of And what's wrong with not keeping a written 10 permanent record every time you use an email or receive an 11 email 12 A Can you restate the question 13 Q What is it about not wanting to keep a permanent record of 14 every email that leads one to think somebody is going to engage 15 in criminal activity if released on pretrial release 16 A The issue was taken in totality of the information 17 Q I'm talking about each of the pieces of your puzzle sir 18 A Okay 19 Q Okay 20 you from having a permanent record of email -- junk emails 21 everything you get -- if you don't want to keep permanent 22 records of those emails 23 A In and of itself nothing 24 Q Certainly not evidence of intent to you know engage in 25 future criminal activity while on pretrial release is it I'm sorry What is it about having an email thing that keeps Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 81 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 81 1 A In and of itself no 2 Q And certainly not evidence that someone is going to move 3 to a foreign land and not come back to court is it 4 A In and of itself no 5 Q And that's the same as not having a recording of every 6 telephone conversation or even face-to-face conversation you 7 have with anybody 8 A I could see the similarity 9 Q Now you said she inquired about a visa Now when you do a 10 visa you have to have a passport do you not 11 A Correct 12 Q And y'all have taken her passport have you not 13 A Correct 14 Q She can't travel or get visas now can she 15 A She would have to apply for a new passport 16 Q Okay 17 fitness instructor when she left the Air Force 18 A Yes 19 Q Anything suspicious about that 20 A No 21 Q Any indication of future criminal conduct or flight to a 22 foreign land 23 A No 24 Q Do you know how much fitness instructors make 25 A No idea Now you indicated that she had career plans to be a Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 82 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 82 1 Q They don't make much do they 2 A I don't know what their salary is 3 Q Do you realize she was working both as a linguist and as a 4 fitness instructor 5 A She was 6 Q You asked -- you saw something about how to join what you 7 called the association of hackers 8 is that your colloquial name 9 A No What's the name of it or The name is -- of the group the association -- is 10 Anonymous 11 Q Did she join that group 12 A I have no information either way on that 13 Q So you don't have any information she did that 14 A No I don't 15 Q If you are kind of a computer nerd and want to know about 16 all the different programs out there anything wrong with that 17 A You have to talk to a computer guy 18 Q Okay 19 A Not really 20 Q Now we had P-4 you went through which is a screen shot 21 If you see abuse leak it 22 is 23 A I do 24 Q Is it something dishonorable for a government employee to 25 be a whistleblower when they see inappropriate conduct Are you a computer guy Do you know what a whistleblower Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 83 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 83 1 A Whistleblowers are -- it is a legal protection 2 Q Okay 3 P-4 4 the New York Times 5 A I do 6 Q Okay 7 A I do 8 Q The Washington Post 9 Post Now we have here these websites that are on that One of them is to the New York Times Do you ever read Do you view that as a respectable publication Do you ever read The Washington 10 A I do 11 Q Do you view that as a respectable publication 12 A I do 13 Q Do you have strong support for the --- 14 MRS SOLARI Your Honor I've got to object 15 don't think that Special Agent Garrick's opinions about 16 particular news agencies bear relevance 17 MR BELL I They presented P-4 as evidence of future 18 criminal conduct danger and flight and it's innocuous Your 19 Honor and I'm going into it 20 relevant they shouldn't have tendered it into evidence 21 THE COURT If they didn't think it was I'll allow you a little leeway 22 Q Do you know what The Guardian is -- that English newspaper 23 now active in the United States 24 A Yes 25 Q Respectable publication Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 84 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 84 1 A It has good articles 2 Q Okay 3 that as respectable 4 A No I do not 5 Q Okay 6 have a security clearance does it 7 A No it does not 8 Q And so --- 9 And amongst them The Intercept Now are you aware of -- now The Intercept doesn't MRS SOLARI 10 Do you review Your Honor if I may A bench Conference is held off the record 11 Q You've got the exhibits do you not 12 A I do sir 13 Q If you could look at No 7 14 A Yes sir 15 Q If you could look at No 7 16 page of 7 17 A Yes sir 18 Q And you mentioned several of the things on this page did 19 you not 20 A Yes 21 Q You didn't mention anything in that first four lines did 22 you 23 A No 24 Q So we get the full story could you please Investigator 25 Garrick read for all of us the first four lines which I think If you could go to the last Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 85 of 145 Justin C Document Garrick-Cross by 10 12 17 Mr Bell 85 1 is itself a paragraph of that page -- last page of P-7 2 A Sure 3 Q Thank you 4 A If Christ were to be on planet Earth today where would 5 he be 6 people like him 7 To whom would he reveal himself 8 Q 9 think if he came again today Who would he be Okay What would he say or do When would he reveal himself Thank you Would Pardon me My apologies 10 MRS SOLARI 11 THE COURT Do you ever wonder what Christ would Objection Your Honor Overruled Relevance I mean sustained 12 Q 13 commit future crimes 14 A No 15 Q Do you find those words to be evidence that Reality 16 wouldn't show up for court 17 A 18 Do you find those four words to be evidence of intent to That paragraph no MR BELL Your Honor I think given the Court's 19 ruling we'd like to adjourn this until we're in the secure 20 room 21 THE COURT Okay And just for the sake of everyone 22 here there is a portion of this Mr Bell wants to pursue -- he 23 discussed at sidebar -- that is classified and we'll discuss it 24 when we convene upstairs 25 Mrs Solari you also had that document that you had Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 86 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Redirect by 10 12 17 Mrs Solari 86 1 concern about in discussing in open court 2 before I make a final determination we need to move upstairs to 3 discuss it 4 MRS SOLARI 5 THE COURT 6 Your Honor may I approach at sidebar You may A bench conference is held off the record 7 8 Could I see that THE COURT Mr Bell does that conclude your unclassified questions for this witness 9 MR BELL 10 got -- wait a minute 11 unless they --- 12 Yes it is and I think Mr Nichols has MRS SOLARI The government hadn't finished yet I have some unclassified redirect 13 don't know if the Court would prefer to get that out of the 14 way 15 THE COURT I Yeah anything we can do in open court I 16 absolutely want to do here and I only want to restrict the 17 closed portion to items that are -- and questions -- that are 18 truly classified in nature and so I want everybody to get 19 those unclassified questions on the record in open court before 20 we go upstairs 21 22 MRS SOLARI Absolutely Your Honor and I won't be very long R ED IR EC T EX A M IN ATIO N 23 24 BY MRS SOLARI 25 Q Special Agent Garrick I believe Mr Bell talked with you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 87 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Redirect by 10 12 17 Mrs Solari 87 1 about the fact that people might use anonymizing software 2 because they don't want Google or their search browsers to 3 figure out what they're doing or what they're buying or 4 searching for 5 and her cellphones did you find that Google Chrome appeared to 6 be her preferred internet browser 7 A Yes I did 8 Q Did she appear to use that browser extensively 9 A Yes 10 Q With regard to the Tor browser have you ever used a Tor 11 browser 12 A Not outside of work purposes no 13 Q So for work though you physically use Tor in your 14 capacity as an agent for official purposes 15 A Correct 16 Q Does Tor have any effect on the way that one's computer 17 runs when you're actually using the software 18 A My experience is it's very slow 19 Q Okay 20 whether she had Tor software installed on her computer 21 A Yes 22 Q Did she actually volunteer to you the fact she did 23 A Yes 24 Q And why did she tell you she had installed it 25 A She said she installed it so that she could visit and look In your examination of the defendant's computer Did you talk to the defendant on June 3 rd about Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 88 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Redirect by 10 12 17 Mrs Solari 88 1 at WikiLeaks 2 Q When did she tell you she had installed it 3 A After leaving the Air Force 4 Q Just after leaving the Air Force 5 A Yes 6 Q And I think earlier you testified that she left the Air 7 Force in about mid-November is when she began her terminal 8 leave 9 A Yes 10 Q However I think you also testified that the actual date 11 that the Tor software was installed on her computer was the 12 first of February 13 A Correct 14 Q Which would actually have been several months after her 15 departure from the Air Force 16 A Yes 17 Q And eight days before she started work at Pluribus 18 A Yes 19 Q Okay 20 know her right 21 A No 22 Q You know of her she appears to be very smart very 23 capable person 24 A Yes 25 Q But isn't she also the person to whom the defendant told With regard to the defendant's sister you don't Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 89 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Redirect by 10 12 17 Mrs Solari 89 1 she expected to fail her intelligence polygraph 2 A Correct 3 Q #gonnafail 4 A Yes 5 Q And whom she told whether it was hyperbole or not that 6 Yes I really do hate America 7 A Yes 8 Q And as far as you know is the defendant's family aware or 9 maybe not of the minutiae of what she does but that she held at 10 that time a cleared position 11 A Yes 12 Q And dealt with classified information 13 A Yes 14 Q To the best of your knowledge did Brittany Winner ever 15 report that to anyone that her sister thought she might fail a 16 polygraph when asked if she ever plotted against the U S 17 Government 18 A No 19 Q Or that her sister had expressed in any form hatred for 20 the United States 21 A No 22 Q Do you remember an internet search the defendant performed 23 that contained words to the effect of military what happens 24 when you leave the country without permission 25 A Yes Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 90 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Redirect by 10 12 17 Mrs Solari 90 1 Q And would that have been in the fall of 2016 sometime 2 A Yes 3 Q And with regard to the defendant's access to classified 4 since we've talked about movies have you seen Men in Black 5 A Yes 6 Q Do you know the little memory-erasing device where they 7 just flash the flashlight in your face and you forget 8 everything 9 A Right 10 Q I doubt -- as far as I know anyway the government hasn't 11 created that technology have they 12 A Not that I'm aware of 13 Q Okay 14 access to Top Secret and SCI information 15 A In that neighborhood 16 Q Okay 17 her head that if disclosed could cause exceptionally great 18 damage to national security 19 A Yes 20 Q And I believe you talked about a handwritten note you 21 found right next to the note with the Slippery email inbox 22 A Yes 23 Q That information -- has the equity holder the owner of 24 that information told you that information is actually 25 classified in the context of this case And the defendant spent what over six years with Is it safe to assume then that she knows things in Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 91 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Recross by10 12 17 Mr Bell 91 1 A Yes 2 Q So Special Agent Garrick does this investigation remain 3 ongoing 4 A Yes it does 5 Q Are you 100 percent certain that the defendant does not 6 have any further access to classified information 7 A No I'm not 8 9 MRS SOLARI Thank you That's my redirect Your Honor 10 THE COURT 11 MR BELL Mr Bell Just very briefly R EC R O SS EX A M IN ATIO N 12 13 BY MR BELL 14 Q 15 don't have any information she doesn't 16 A I have no information that she does 17 Q Thank you 18 yourself correct 19 A No I don't 20 Q But you use Tor 21 A At one time for work purposes 22 Q Okay 23 someone who is hiding access to the internet in a dark web 24 illegal sense 25 A Do you have any information that she does You said you That's a negative That's a positive thing Now you have Tor And do you think that's indicative of you being It was an authorized use by my agency Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 92 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Recross by10 12 17 Mr Bell 92 1 Q Okay 2 A It was -- I can't go into the details of that but I don't 3 use Tor never have on a personal basis 4 Q 5 about it's there for the dark web did you 6 A What was your question 7 Q When you were testifying on direct that the purpose of Tor 8 is to access the dark web in your words you didn't tell us but 9 the FBI uses -- I use it in my business with the FBI did you Okay And so your agency uses Tor But you didn't tell us that when you were talking I'm sorry 10 A No I did not 11 Q And you don't know how many millions of Americans use it 12 simply because they don't want Google and everybody else 13 knowing all their business 14 A I don't know the number who use it 15 Q And you didn't think you were doing anything sinister when 16 you used Tor did you 17 A No 18 Q Okay 19 know things in her head correct 20 A Yes 21 Q You know a lot of things in your head don't you 22 A Sure 23 Q Lots of people -- do you know how many NSA agents work out 24 at Fort Gordon 25 A No I was doing it in furtherance of my position Thank you Now you also mentioned that Reality may I don't know the exact number Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed Page 93 of 145 Justin C Garrick-Recross by10 12 17 Mr Bell 93 1 Q It's thousands is it not 2 A That sounds about right 3 Q Would it be fair to say they all have things in their 4 heads 5 A Yes 6 Q Do you propose all of them be locked up in the Lincoln 7 County Jail because they might still have things in their head 8 A No 9 Q Then you would agree with me that General Petraeus had a 10 lot of things in his head when he was --- 11 MRS SOLARI Objection Your Honor I don't think 12 we need to ask -- did you work on the General Petraeus case 13 I don't think this witness has any firsthand knowledge 14 MR BELL That's not -- she's testifying 15 MRS SOLARI I just don't think this witness has any 16 firsthand knowledge of the investigation pertaining to General 17 Petraeus and the outcome 18 MR BELL 19 THE COURT 20 21 I'll withdraw the question All right Mrs Solari any follow up to that MRS SOLARI No Your Honor I don't want to get 22 into anything that might be potentially classified so not in 23 this forum 24 25 THE COURT time and testimony All right Thank you very much for your Agent you may step down Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 94 of 145 Brittany M Winner-Direct by Mr Nichols 94 1 2 Does the government have any further witnesses it would like to call 3 MRS SOLARI 4 THE COURT 5 MRS SOLARI 6 THE COURT 7 MR BELL 8 At least in this public setting No sir All right Mr Bell Your Honor we have a couple of witnesses and if Mr Nichols can do that I'd appreciate it 9 THE COURT 10 11 No Your Honor MR NICHOLS Okay Sure Your Honor at this time we ask that Brittany Michele Winner be called to the courtroom 12 THE COURT 13 MR NICHOLS 14 B R ITTA N Y M W IN N ER is d u ly sw orn 15 THE CLERK 16 THE WITNESS 17 THE CLERK 18 THE WITNESS 19 Good morning Mr Nichols Good morning Your Honor Please state your name for the record Sure Do I need to spell it too Please Brittany B-R-I-T-T-A-N-Y Michele M-I-C-H-E-L-E Winner W-I-N-N-E-R 20 THE CLERK Thank you D IR EC T EX A M IN ATIO N 21 22 BY MR NICHOLS 23 Q Good morning Ms Winner 24 A Morning 25 Q Where do you currently resides Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 95 of 145 Brittany M Winner-Direct by Mr Nichols 95 1 A I live in Okemos Michigan 2 Q And what do you do for a living 3 A I just received my PhD in pharmacology and toxicology 4 Q And we understand that you're related to Reality 5 long did you all live in the same home 6 A 7 old 8 Q And who is the oldest sibling 9 A I am older 10 Q By how many 11 A About 15 months 12 Q I see you have the number down specifically 13 A Yes 14 Q Let's talk about your relationship with Reality 15 would you describe her personality 16 A 17 interesting sense of humor and so do I 18 jokes and we watched a lot of the same TV 19 that kind of stuff but also very caring very loving 20 she's a really special person 21 Q Have you ever known her to act out of violence 22 A No definitely not 23 Q Have you ever seen her commit an act of violence 24 A No 25 Q What about her temperament Until I went to college How That was when I was 17 years You or her She's very creative super smart How She has kind of an So we're always making So we talked about Yes Does she hold grudges Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 96 of 145 Brittany M Winner-Direct by Mr Nichols 96 1 A No I mean she's always emphasized forgiveness not 2 holding grudges and she's helped me actually in my life try to 3 forgive people 4 Q How long -- are you aware of her service in the military 5 A Yes 6 Q Do you know why she joined the military 7 A She wanted to serve our country 8 to college and that kind of seemed like the obvious thing to do 9 once you get out of high school but she decided that she A lot of her peers went 10 wanted to join the Air Force so she could make a difference 11 Q 12 military or was it voluntary 13 A No 14 Q Do you know how long she served in the military 15 A She served for six years 16 Q And do you know if she had ever been reprimanded or 17 punished for any type of behavior in the military 18 A No she was not 19 Q Do you know if she ever had gone AWOL or away without 20 leave in the military 21 A No she did not 22 Q How long -- do you know when she left the military 23 A I can't remember the year off the top of my head 24 Q And was it a voluntary separation or involuntary 25 A It was voluntary Had anyone in your family pressured her to join the It was voluntary Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 97 of 145 Brittany M Winner-Direct by Mr Nichols 97 1 Q Do you know if she ever received a commendation to her 2 service in the military 3 A 4 really excited about that 5 Q What was the commendation for if you know 6 A I can't remember off the top of my head 7 Q Not a problem 8 her -- was there a specific part of the world that she was 9 trained in regards to She did yeah Yes She gave my mom a plaque and my mom was I'm sorry When she was in the military what were 10 A She was like a translator for the Air Force and 11 the first language that she was cleared to do was Farsi 12 Q 13 fascination with Middle East and terrorism 14 the military did she ever go to any schools in regard to the 15 Middle East 16 A What do you mean by schools 17 Q Like did the military train her on anything regarding 18 Middle Eastern culture and language 19 A 20 know that she learned the language but as far as anything 21 else I am not really sure 22 Q 23 in the military 24 A 25 Afghanistan Now the government has described her knowledge as a When she was in I believe that the Defense Language Academy Institute -- I As a linguist what part of the world was she focused on Sure She was focused on the Middle East -- so Iran Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 98 of 145 Brittany M Winner-Direct by Mr Nichols 98 1 Q Do you know if she had studied other languages before 2 going into the military 3 A 4 know south Texas and a lot of us -- we learned Spanish in 5 school 6 Q 7 work 8 A Oh definitely 9 Q What do you know about her desire to do humanitarian work 10 A Well she was -- I think that she thought one of her 11 life's missions and it became one of her life's goals to go to 12 Afghanistan and help you know with humanitarian aid 13 that she knew the languages that she felt that she was in a 14 unique position to help people there and that was something 15 that she really wanted to do 16 Q 17 that as to help the terrorists or to help the people 18 A Helping people 19 Q How often would she talk to you about her desire to do the 20 humanitarian work in Afghanistan 21 A 22 like different charities and trying to figure out how she 23 could get you know clearance that allowed being allowed over 24 in Afghanistan to do that 25 frequently I don't recall other than Spanish We were raised you Did Reality have any views in regards to humanitarian Now Now when she said help in Afghanistan did you interpret Quite often I know that she was trying to go through We talked about it pretty It was something that she really really wanted to Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 99 of 145 Brittany M Winner-Direct by Mr Nichols 99 1 do 2 Q 3 the charities to go work in Afghanistan 4 A 5 one -- there was a language thing 6 go to Switzerland to get trained 7 which one that is but yes so she faced some difficulties in 8 trying to do that but I don't think she really gave up 9 Q Do you know if she ran into any difficulties in joining I believe for one of them -- and I can't remember which She had to know French to I can't remember what -- There's also been discussion about Reality writing in her 10 notebook about members of the Taliban or Islam 11 what Reality's view on Islam was 12 A 13 like in general 14 about like the Bible 15 interested in Judaism 16 she's kind of a yoga fanatic so she's really into sort of the 17 sayings the philosophies sort of the ethics of things and 18 then of course because of her connection to you know the 19 language that she learned for her job part of some of her 20 training and the people that she interacted with were Moslems 21 and so she was introduced to the religion the culture 22 that she had read the parts of the Koran 23 knowledgeable about Islam but also about other major world 24 religions 25 she definitely knew a lot about it Yeah Do you know So my sister liked to study religion just kind of So we were raised Christian so she knew She also read the Torah She was She was interested in Buddhism So I know So she was very So I am not sure that she was fixated on Islam but Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 100 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Direct by 10 12 17 Mr Nichols 100 1 Q Did she have any opinions in regards to the Taliban and 2 Al-Qaida 3 A 4 destructive things that Al-Qaida was doing 5 the Taliban is that they're basically just religious leaders 6 in the Middle East and most of them haven't committed any act 7 of terrorism 8 within a normally-peaceable organization who are committing 9 these acts and so I don't think she viewed the Taliban as a bad Definitely -- she was definitely against the kind of It is the rogue people The thing about It is the terrorists 10 entity by itself I mean they're religious leaders within 11 Islam 12 Q 13 ever express any type of enjoyment whenever she heard about a 14 terrorist attack against the United States 15 A 16 mean they're making Islam look bad and I think that she was 17 really frustrated that people were equating Moslems with 18 terrorists and that's something that we talked about a lot and 19 sort of the religious intolerance you know the Islamophobia 20 It's something that we both -- we both shared beliefs that that 21 was so wrong 22 Q 23 issues 24 A Oh definitely 25 Q Would you all talk about them from time to time Did she ever -- from your conversations with her did she Of course not The only thing that they're doing -- I Did Reality have any political views on environmental Yes Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 101 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Direct by 10 12 17 Mr Nichols 101 1 A We did Both of us have tremendous respect for the earth 2 for animals and so since it's a philosophy that we shared we 3 would discuss that quite often 4 Q 5 issues 6 A 7 nation I think that -- well both of us agreed that there are 8 times when we don't use our resources wisely -- that sort of 9 the like not taking care of the earth -- this is the only How did she view America's handling of enviromental Well as a very large sort of industrialized capitalist 10 earth we have This is our home You have to honor it 11 respect it and I think that what we saw is that America was 12 just -- it was not putting the environment first where it 13 should be so making decisions about people's quality of life 14 over kind of using the resources correctly and respecting the 15 earth I think that -- yeah we just really -- we talked about 16 it and we really didn't like that 17 Q 18 because she had political views on the environment 19 A Of course not 20 Q Do you know if Reality ever tried to speak to her elected 21 officials about her views on the environment 22 A 23 discussed climate change and issues related to that 24 mean she tried to -- she wanted to make a difference in a good 25 way -- in a way where she could talk to somebody who could you Did Reality ever talk about committing acts of terrorism She did She had a meeting with Senator Perdue and they So I Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 102 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Direct by 10 12 17 Mr Nichols 102 1 know vote to promote sort of environmentalism and that was 2 the kind of way that she wanted to do that 3 Q How would you describe Reality's sense of humor 4 A Well it's kind of like mine 5 -- we have a lot of inside jokes a lot of things that you 6 know we would say to each other that would look really strange 7 to somebody kind of outside of our relationship 8 of borders on sort of like not appropriate sometimes but I 9 mean you know we're sisters We're kind of weird in our We're very close We -- it kind It becomes 10 -- so we just -- we're odd How about that 11 Q 12 does she frequently make inappropriate jokes 13 A 14 them with you know your family members 15 anything you know really horrible in my opinion 16 nobody else would really understand our humor 17 Q 18 where she said burn the White House down and flee to 19 Kurdistan 20 burn or wanted to burn the White House down 21 A Of course not 22 Q Is there anything in your relationship with Reality that 23 made you think that she would ever commit an act of arson 24 A Never 25 Q Anything that would make you think that she would actually You said not appropriate Sure I do too So in your knowing Reality I mean there is a time and a place for It was never It was just Now the government has made mention of writings she made Did you believe that she was actually going to Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 103 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Direct by 10 12 17 Mr Nichols 103 1 flee the country to go to Kurdistan 2 A No 3 Q When she went to go see Senator Perdue do you know if she 4 said Well I don't agree with his political views I am going 5 to burn his office down 6 A No 7 Q Did she ever say that she was going to be hostile or 8 disrespectful to Senator Perdue because she didn't agree with 9 him 10 A Of course not 11 Q Do you have any reason to believe that if granted bond 12 Reality would not come back to court 13 A I have no believe that she would not come back to court 14 Q Do you know if Reality owns property outside of Georgia 15 A No she does not 16 Q Does she own property outside of this country 17 A No she does not 18 Q Do you know if she has any personal contact with anyone in 19 Afghanistan or Kurdistan 20 A No she does not 21 Q The government made mention of a prior online conversation 22 you and Reality had regarding a polygraph test 23 believe that Reality actually hated America because of that 24 conversation 25 A No Did you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed Page 104 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Direct by 10 12 17 Mr Nichols 104 1 Q Why did you not think she hated America 2 A Oftentimes when we would talk to each other kind of joke 3 with each other we assumed it was you know a safe place to 4 kind of talk about you know our views and things 5 lot of hyperbole 6 Man you know I want to quit my job or I want to -- you 7 know stuff that we would never do stuff that we didn't really 8 think was true and I think that she was just being really 9 dramatic in that particular exchange We used a So I mean you have a bad day you say 10 Q Well based on that exchange and others did you feel that 11 you had a need to alert the authorities as to what Reality 12 said 13 A Of course not 14 Q There is another conversation the government refers to 15 involving Vault 7 and Eric Snowden 16 Mr Snowden and Julian Assange did she not 17 A Yes 18 Q Do you know if she ever had personal contact with him 19 A No 20 Q Do you know if she's ever had any personal contact with 21 any of the representatives 22 A No 23 Q Do you know if they provided her with any type of 24 financial or substantial support since this has taken place 25 A No Reality agreed with Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 105 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 105 1 2 MR NICHOLS And Your Honor those are all the questions I have for Ms Winner at this time 3 THE COURT 4 MRS SOLARI Okay Any cross Thank you Your Honor C R O SS -EX A M IN ATIO N 5 6 BY MRS SOLARI 7 Q Hey 8 A Good morning 9 Q My name is Jenna I appreciate your being here today I 10 just want to ask you a few questions that pertain to this case 11 Your name is Brittany 12 A On Facebook and -- yeah like that's kind of my nickname 13 Q So like just with your sister 14 A Yeah 15 Q What should I call you 16 A Brittany is fine 17 Q Brittany 18 remember the couple or few or however many conversations you've 19 had with your sister since she's been incarcerated 20 A Right 21 Q Okay 22 were very wisely trying to be cautious about talking with your 23 sister about whatever it was she may have done to cause her to 24 be arrested 25 A Yes Okay Do you go by Britty Great So I'm sure you probably And there was one in particular and I think you Do you remember that conversation Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 106 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 106 1 Q And you were a little confused obviously because I don't 2 think really anybody in your family knew exactly what had 3 happened at that point right 4 A Right 5 Q Okay 6 sort of a big deal and you would find out later -- that the 7 FBI would call and give you more information that sort of 8 stuff 9 A Right 10 Q Okay 11 might have been something that had to do with her background 12 security questionnaire 13 A Yeah 14 Q That she might have -- I don't know -- put a wrong 15 birthday for someone or something 16 A Yes 17 Q Okay 18 clarified for you with some detail what she had done 19 A 20 also lighten her mood 21 arrested for doing that 22 because she forgot the day in December of my husband 23 Q 24 you know your sister was trying to commit espionage or 25 something because she got somebody's birthday wrong -- not at You just knew that she had been arrested it was And I think you thought at first maybe that this But in that conversation your sister actually What I was trying to do when I asked her about that was Oh sure I realized she wouldn't have gotten Like she got his birthday wrong No I am certainly not trying to suggest that Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 107 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 107 1 all but I think you asked her in the conversation It's not 2 because you put the wrong birthday for Chris 3 she answered you No I leaked a document and they were able 4 to trace it back to me and it's kind of an important one 5 you remember her responding that way to you or words to that 6 effect in that phonecall 7 A Yes 8 Q So do you understand that to you -- and I understand you 9 may not know what she's admitted to anybody else but to you 10 she essentially admitted committing the offense with which 11 she's charged 12 MR BELL 13 MR NICHOLS 14 MR BELL 15 MRS SOLARI 16 MR BELL 17 MRS SOLARI 18 THE COURT And in fact Do Your Honor --Your Honor --- Your Honor we -- I object to that I'll rephrase it She's talking about a legal opinion I'll rephrase it Sustained It is sustained 19 Q She admitted to you she leaked a document I can show you 20 the transcript if you'd like 21 A I've seen it 22 Q Okay 23 A That was her explanation for what was happening 24 Q And that they were able to trace it back to her 25 A That's what she said I don't know if you remember it So she admitted to you I leaked a document Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 108 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 108 1 Q And that it was kind of an important one 2 A That's what the transcript says 3 Q Is that in fact what she said to you 4 A Yes 5 Q Okay 6 to cheer her up and certainly of course I appreciate that 7 as I'm sure she did being her sister and trying to keep her in 8 good spirits -- it seemed like she was kind of down in that 9 conversation Later on in the call -- and I know you were trying Did she at some point tell you Like I don't 10 want a rest of my life if it's not what I have 11 concerned about what would come after she was released from 12 confinement one day 13 A 14 direct quote 15 Q 16 put the words in anybody's mouth 17 A Oh can you rephrase the question 18 Q I am just trying to confirm that you were talking with her 19 about you know keeping her chin up 20 don't know what I am getting through this for 21 What do you mean 22 side 23 right because your sister will get through this one way or the 24 other and then she responded to you --- 25 Was she I don't recall her specifically saying that It is I can show you the transcript Is that a I don't want to She said to you I You said She said What's going to be on the other And you very rightly said The rest of your life MR WHITLEY Your Honor I don't know why we have -- Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 109 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 109 1 the transcript should speak for itself and we have the 2 counselor or the government is asking her questions about the 3 transcript 4 transcript and say that's in fact what she said that would 5 be fine but it seems to me that we have double testimony here 6 going on regarding the transcript If the Court wants the witness to look at the 7 THE COURT 8 a copy of it in front of her -- 9 MR WHITLEY If your concern is that she ought to have 10 THE COURT Yes -- certainly we can allow her to have 11 that copy But I do think that going through that conversation 12 on record here today to the extent that it relates to the 13 detention issues is certainly within the realm of what both 14 sides would be allowed to do 15 MR WHITLEY Right But I do think her having the 16 transcript would be quite useful 17 THE COURT 18 MR WHITLEY Thank you 19 MRS SOLARI I have no problem with that Your 20 Honor 21 Sure I do think that's fair THE COURT May I approach the witness You may 22 Q Brittany I am going to hand you what's admitted as 23 Government's Exhibit 6B on the bottom there and it is 24 paginated -- I think it is a 7-page document 25 about the conversation that starts on the bottom of page 5 with So I was talking Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 110 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 110 1 your sister saying I don't -- this sounds really dumb but I 2 don't know what I am getting through this for 3 that place in the transcript 4 A I did 5 Q Was your sister sort of -- I don't know -- musing what 6 would be on the other side of this and then saying to you on 7 the next page page 6 Like I don't want a rest of my life if 8 it's not what I have 9 10 THE COURT Ms Winner have you ever seen this transcript before today 11 THE WITNESS 12 THE COURT No sir Do you want some time to look at it 13 before you continue the questions 14 THE WITNESS 15 THE COURT 16 Have you found Well maybe like a minute We can take a break and give you ten minutes if you want that 17 THE WITNESS 18 THE COURT Yes please Okay Let's do that Let's take a break 19 and after you're done looking at that and you're ready to 20 proceed just let Mrs Widener know and we'll start again 21 want to give you the time you need to look through it 22 THE WITNESS 23 THE COURT 24 25 Thank you I Am I staying here Well if you need a private setting we got a jury room right there A break is taken You can look at it in there Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 111 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 111 1 2 THE COURT All right Dr Winner have you had a chance to review that transcript in full now 3 THE WITNESS 4 THE COURT All right Yes I have sir All right Mrs Solari you may proceed 5 Q Again so referring to the top of page 6 of 7 6 is this generally a conversation where you're trying to give 7 your sister some words of encouragement 8 A Of course 9 Q Sure She's my baby sister And so you're trying to tell her again that which 10 is true -- I agree you agree -- however this turns out she'll 11 come through on the other side 12 right 13 A That's right 14 Q But she's expressed some concerns like saying Like I 15 don't want the rest of my life if it's not what I have 16 that a concern that she expressed to you 17 A She did say that 18 Q But then of course you know quickly acknowledges that 19 there are certainly a lot of other people in the world that 20 have things a lot worse than she did 21 A 22 sympathized with those people -- Syrian refugees 23 Q 24 interested in humanitarian work and all those sorts of things 25 and I don't take any of that away from her There is life after this Was Yeah and she was very aware because she definitely Sure I've seen that in her history I know she's very I totally Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 112 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 112 1 understand that Slightly after that conversation maybe a 2 quarter of the way down the page did your sister tell you 3 Yeah I keep telling myself to act more like I think I did 4 something wrong with sort of a laugh 5 A Yes I see that 6 Q And you asked her What 7 like I really feel in my heart regret what I did and that I did 8 something wrong 9 what I did was inherently wrong And she said Like pretend Not because I'm in jail right now because Did she say that to you 10 A Yes 11 Q Did that sort of suggest to you that your sister was 12 struggling to really feel any regret or any contrition for what 13 she told you she had done 14 A I didn't really know how to interpret that at the time 15 Q All right 16 front of you -- you can set Exhibit 6B aside 17 of you Exhibits 11 and 12 and certainly you can take your 18 time looking at those 19 Fair enough We can get past that I put in I put in front I think they're relatively brief So I'd like to talk to you about Exhibit 11 and I think 20 Mr Nichols already discussed this one with you 21 Facebook chat in which you and your sister discussed her 22 chances of passing the polygraph exam as part of her security 23 clearance 24 A Yes 25 Q And she figured she was #gonnafail Do you remember that one This was a Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 113 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 113 1 A That's what it says 2 Q Okay 3 said you guys sort of had our own sisterly sense of humor 4 going on 5 A Yes 6 Q Now she said -- and again perhaps this was hyperbole or 7 joking -- You know I only say I hate America like three times 8 a day 9 with air conditioning And then you had kind of an LOL because like you I am no radical Mostly because Americans are obsessed But then you asked her didn't you 10 But you don't actually hate America right 11 A That's right 12 Q I mean because this was your safe place and you guys 13 joked sometimes and say things like I am going to quit my job 14 or I am going to kill that guy but you actually asked her to 15 clarify that one didn't you 16 A 17 you know you're talking about this but like you don't 18 actually you know hate America 19 Q 20 they don't but what she same back with was I mean yeah I 21 do 22 We invented capitalism the downfall of the environment 23 your sister expressed to you some degree of actual -- I don't 24 want to say hatred but those were her words -- after she 25 expressed that to you did you have any concern about her as a What I was trying to do was be conceding like okay well Right Because a lot of people say things like that and It's literally the worst thing to happen to the planet When Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 114 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 114 1 security risk to or did you report her as such to anybody 2 A 3 hated America 4 You don't actually hate America she was making a joke 5 said I mean yeah I do 6 happen to the planet 7 person she would be rolling her eyes 8 know Wow you know I really hate how the planet is being 9 abused I didn't interpret her statement to mean that she actually Okay Even though I clarified -- even though I said She It's literally the worst thing to It's something that if we were in She'd be saying you 10 Q So understanding at the time that she worked in a 11 cleared position because you understood that right 12 A Yes 13 Q You just wrote that off as a joke -- didn't feel the need 14 to report it to anybody 15 A Of course not 16 Q All right 17 another Facebook Instant Message chat between you and your 18 sister 19 something called Vault 7 20 A Yes 21 Q And did you look at all on the internet after she pointed 22 it out to you to see like what is that because it is kind of 23 a random name 24 A 25 her for some information because it's -- you know security is Take a look at Exhibit 12 then This is Do you remember when she called your attention to I looked it up but I didn't -- I was mainly relying on Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 115 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 115 1 something that she cared about and it was something that you 2 know she dealt with on a daily basis and so one of the ways -- 3 one of the things that we used to talk about would be you 4 know current events stuff like that 5 for information about that 6 Q 7 WikiLeaks published what they called Vault 7 on this same day 8 on March 7 th 9 A Right 10 Q Does that sound right 11 you got some information about it That's scary stuff right 12 A Right 13 Q Okay 14 It's so awesome though 15 Did you interpret that to be your sister sort of championing 16 someone from WikiLeaks who claimed that they had damaged U S 17 intelligence programs 18 A 19 meant awesome just in terms of a catastrophic sort of breach 20 right 21 mean if you think about the word awesome right inspiring 22 awe I don't think that she meant that it was necessarily -- 23 she wasn't championing it 24 thing 25 about the scope Okay So I was relying on her And this was a current event because I think And you told her I guess after And your sister for some reason came back with They just crippled the program I think that's part of her sense of humor She might have So oh that's awesome that it was something that -- I She wasn't saying this was a great She was just saying -- she was just making a comment Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 116 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 116 1 Q I can see where perhaps you thought that and I think maybe 2 you do because you wrote back to her once again with some 3 incredulity like you did in the last chat So you're on 4 Assange's side 5 you Well no of course I am not or No this was a 6 really serious thing or It sounds terrible her response 7 was Yes and Snowden 8 A That's correct 9 Q So once again you tried to clarify saying like you And rather than your sister responding to Correct 10 can't possibly mean what you're saying and for the second time 11 your sister came back and told you yes absolutely I do 12 am on the signed of WikiLeaks and I am on the side of Edward 13 Snowden 14 A Yes 15 Q Sure 16 A My tone is not incredulous 17 Instant Messages 18 Q Sure 19 A So what Reality and I would talk about often would be our 20 political opinions our views on things and so when you have 21 people who have leaked information or like Snowden or Assange 22 it is a common thing -- it's a common debate 23 are lots of people in America who think that what they did was 24 correct and there are a lot that think that what they did was 25 incorrect and so we're having a conversation -- I Can I clarify something It is hard to tell tone over I mean there Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 117 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 117 1 Q Sure 2 A -- about that -- about our opinions 3 Q Right 4 was your sister of the opinion that these folks who leaked or 5 were alleged to have leaked damaging classified information 6 that that was the right thing to do 7 A 8 position of you know where she has security clearance she's 9 handling you know information And I think that matters to some extent here What I wanted to know was her opinion So Being in a I wanted to see her side of 10 things because I don't really deal with that kind of stuff in 11 my daily life 12 and I wanted to know her opinion on that 13 Q 14 you're on Assange's side and she said Yes and Snowden 15 A 16 learning more about her opinions how she viewed things because 17 she had a really unique perspective on that 18 Q How did you typically communicate with your sister 19 A Mostly Instant Messaging 20 Q Did you guys email at all 21 A No 22 Q Didn't use any email 23 nothing like that 24 A 25 It was a link that was more easily accessible with a computer I am a scientist So I got my news from her And she gave you her opinion when you asked her So Right That was something that I was interested in We did not Okay I believe she emailed me So no Gmail no Hotmail I can't remember what it was Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 118 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 118 1 so she did email it to me but I can't remember what that was 2 Q 3 communicate over emails 4 A That's right 5 Q Did you guys ever communicate using any sort of 6 self-destructing type thing like untraceable email accounts or 7 self-destructing inboxes Tor email or anything like that 8 A No 9 Q Okay But it sounds like it was really rare that you guys would You mentioned your sister doesn't own any property 10 outside of the state of Georgia She doesn't own any property 11 inside of the state of Georgia either does she 12 A She rents a home 13 Q Right 14 A Right 15 Q She has some kind of lease on a small house here in 16 Augusta 17 A Oh sorry 18 Q Not exactly 19 A Got it 20 Q Doesn't have any real estate here right 21 A Right 22 Q And I don't think any other member of your family owns any 23 real estate here 24 A No 25 Q Okay But she doesn't own anything here Does a car count as property in this state I guess I am talking about real estate And your sister was previously employed here in Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 119 of 145 Brittany M Document Winner-Cross by Mrs Solari 119 1 Augusta correct 2 A That's right 3 Q But due to the circumstances you're aware that she's 4 previously not employed by anybody in the State of Georgia is 5 that right 6 A Since when 7 Q Since the date of her arrest 8 A That's right Can you give me some dates 9 MRS SOLARI 10 all I have Your Honor 11 THE COURT 12 MR NICHOLS Okay 13 14 One moment Your Honor All right That's Any redirect One moment Your Honor Your Honor we have no further questions THE COURT Okay Dr Winner thank you very much 15 for your love of your sister and taking time out of your busy 16 schedule to be here today 17 THE WITNESS 18 THE COURT 19 MR NICHOLS 20 Thank you Any further witnesses from the defense Yes Your Honor We would call Billie Winner-Davis to the stand 21 THE COURT Is this your final witness Mr Nichols 22 MR NICHOLS 23 B ILLIE W D A V IS is d u ly sw orn 24 THE COURT You may be seated 25 THE CLERK Please state your name for the record Yes Your Honor Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document Filed Page 120 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis - 120 Direct by10 12 17 Mr Nichols 120 1 THE WITNESS Billie Winner-Davis D IR EC T EX A M IN ATIO N 2 3 BY MR NICHOLS 4 Q Good morning Mrs Davis 5 A Good morning 6 Q You previously testified at the original hearing that we 7 had in June correct 8 A Yes I did 9 Q Okay I don't want to belabor any points that we 10 previously went over so I'll try to focus on different areas 11 There has since -- since the pretrial hearing the government 12 has clarified previous statements they made in regards to your 13 conversation with Reality 14 A Yes 15 Q Let's talk about one of the issues -- the $30 000 16 Reality was first placed in confinement did you have a 17 conversation with her about $30 000 18 A 19 mate I believe the way that I am remembering it and Reality 20 was right next to this woman and this woman called and she was 21 frantic saying that Reality needs for you to transfer the money 22 out of her account as soon as possible 23 Q 24 money out of her account 25 A Are you aware of that I read it on Facebook and on the news It actually wasn't with her When It was with another cell What was the reason for Reality wanting to transfer the I -- she said that because Reality had been told that the Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document Filed Page 121 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis - 120 Direct by10 12 17 Mr Nichols 121 1 government was going to freeze all of her accounts and she 2 needed money to pay her bills and she was afraid that they 3 would freeze her accounts 4 bills 5 Q 6 government to get a free lawyer 7 A No 8 Q Did Reality tell you that she wanted you to take out the 9 money so she could get a free lawyer She would have no way to pay her Did you interpret it as Reality trying to scam the Absolutely not no 10 A No 11 Q Once the money was transferred -- when she said pay 12 bills what type of bills did Reality expect to be paying 13 while she was in confinement 14 A 15 card that she was very concerned about paying for so 16 Q And did you actually make that transfer 17 A Yes I did 18 Q And has that money been used to pay those bills 19 A Yes 20 Q Where are you currently staying now 21 A I am staying at her home here in Augusta 22 Q When did you come to Augusta 23 A On Saturday 24 Q Why did you come to Augusta from your home in Texas 25 A I am going to be temporarily living here as long as I need Well her house and her regular bills She has a credit I arrived on Saturday afternoon Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document Filed Page 122 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis - 120 Direct by10 12 17 Mr Nichols 122 1 to 2 Q 3 employed in Texas 4 A Yes I was 5 Q And why would you leave your employment to come to 6 Augusta 7 A Because I need to be here for my daughter 8 Q And you're staying in her home 9 transportation And what about your employment Were you previously Do you have modes of 10 A I have her vehicle here at this point and if at some time 11 I need another vehicle my husband will drive my vehicle up and 12 then fly home 13 Q 14 on her home 15 A I have 16 Q And is there any risk that home -- that she's going to be 17 evicted from that home in the near future 18 A No none whatsoever 19 Q What is the value of your property in Texas 20 A It's about 130 to $150 000 from what I understand 21 Q Would you be willing to put up that property in lieu for 22 Reality to receive a bond 23 A Yes I would 24 Q Do you have any fears that if you put up that property 25 Reality would flee Since she was placed in confinement who has made payments I put my name on the lease Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document- 120 Filed Page 123 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis Cross by10 12 17 Mrs Solari 123 1 A No absolutely not 2 Q Do you have any fears that Reality would commit some type 3 of act of violence if released 4 A No she would not 5 Q In your conversations with Reality has Reality discussed 6 her dietary issues 7 A Yes she has 8 Q Would you say she's happy with the food she received 9 A No she's -- and I am very concerned about her nutrition 10 Q Are you concerned about any medical issues she may have 11 inside of confinement 12 A 13 that she hates taking the medication and having to be on 14 medication for digestive issues 15 Q And what digestive issues is she experiencing 16 A She's not regular 17 Yeah She's had a skin condition as well and she told me MR NICHOLS And just Your Honor one moment 18 Court's indulgence 19 for this witness at this time Your Honor I have no further questions 20 THE COURT 21 MRS SOLARI Mrs Solari Briefly if I may Your Honor C R O SS -EX A M IN ATIO N 22 The 23 BY MRS SOLARI 24 Q Good morning Mrs Winner-Davis 25 A Not very good How are you Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document- 120 Filed Page 124 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis Cross by10 12 17 Mrs Solari 124 1 Q 2 that 3 directly but I certainly get the impression and understand 4 that to the extent I may have misrepresented anything about the 5 conversation between you and your daughter at the initial 6 hearing I apologize to you for that 7 my intent 8 are and I never want to do otherwise 9 apologize to you 10 Under the circumstances to be expected I'm sorry about And I guess I can't say I know because we haven't spoken That was certainly not My only job here is to present the facts as they So again I want to In talking about the $30 000 I am not here to argue with 11 you about where it was moved or why it was moved or anything 12 like that but where did Reality get $30 000 13 A 14 saved and she worked 15 Q 16 of money say after about February of this year 17 A Not to my knowledge no 18 Q Okay 19 of sign-on bonus with Pluribus or anything else that would have 20 granted her let's say a payment in excess of $10 000 21 A I don't know 22 Q And with regards to this ongoing case obviously you 23 support your daughter and I would want my mom to do that as 24 well and so I commend you for that 25 some fundraising efforts for I guess yourself your family She's very good with money She lives on minimal So she I mean she's worked I understand but did she -- did she come into a large sum So did she have any sort of inheritance or any sort I wouldn't have knowledge to that Have you been involved in Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document- 120 Filed Page 125 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis Cross by10 12 17 Mrs Solari 125 1 your daughter legal defense 2 A No 3 MR NICHOLS Your Honor I am going to object as to 4 any question that goes into any fundraising efforts that may 5 have anything to do with legal defense 6 THE COURT 7 MRS SOLARI What's the relevance Mrs Solari Your Honor I think Your Honor needs to 8 know if Your Honor is going to consider any sort of bond 9 whatsoever what assets are available to the family and whether 10 they are in fact secured by the family's own assets or if 11 these are donations by other contributors 12 of anything that would be posted is relevant I think the source 13 MR NICHOLS And Your Honor --- 14 MRS SOLARI I don't want to get into who is paying 15 for the legal defense 16 THE COURT We'll get into those issues if the bond 17 is ordered in the case 18 So it is sustained 19 20 21 MRS SOLARI Right now I don't think it's relevant Understood I will forego that Your Honor As part of your other efforts to support your daughter 22 have you aligned yourself with organizations such as Stand 23 with Reality and I think there is another one called maybe 24 Resist or what are some of the other ones 25 I see them online I can't remember Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document- 120 Filed Page 126 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis Cross by10 12 17 Mrs Solari 126 1 A The Courage to Resist Foundation is -- they took on 2 Reality's case 3 Q Okay 4 A I am not really aligned with them but I did give them 5 permission to go ahead and they do have a StandWithReality org 6 campaign 7 have an event in Kingsville to raise awareness 8 Q Okay 9 A No fundraising 10 Q Okay 11 made or reposted or whatever in connection with the case and I 12 guess I'll ask you have you accepted the fact or do you believe 13 the fact that your daughter leaked a classified document to the 14 media 15 A No 16 Q I'm a little confused then by your online postings 17 Haven't you expressed the opinion that what your daughter did 18 was quite heroic and patriotic because whatever she disclosed 19 was information America needed to know 20 A No 21 Q Okay I have that on my Facebook I Nothing wrong with that And I guess I've seen some comments that you've I don't know that to be a fact I have not done that Thank you very much 22 THE COURT 23 MR NICHOLS 24 THE COURT 25 I put it out there That's all I have for you Any redirect Briefly Your Honor All right R ED IR EC T EX A M IN ATIO N Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filedby 10 12 17 Page 127 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis - Redirect Mr Nichols 127 1 Q Mrs Davis the government spoke about the $30 000 that 2 Reality had in her account 3 military 4 A Six years 5 Q Do you know what she had been paid in the military 6 A I do not but I know that she had a sizable lump sum for 7 her language 8 Q Do you know if Reality had excess credit card debt 9 A No 10 Q Did Reality have student loans 11 A No 12 Q Did Reality have a high-interest car note she had to pay 13 A No she had already paid it off 14 Q What about when she moved to Georgia 15 her rent particularly high 16 A No it's not 17 Q Does she have any children 18 A No 19 Q Well having raised a family do you believe that you 20 would be able to save $30 000 if you didn't have to pay for 21 children 22 A Absolutely yes 23 Q And do you have any reason to believe that Reality had 24 $30 000 in her bank account because somebody gave her a large 25 sum of money at one time How long did Reality serve in the Did she have -- is Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filedby 10 12 17 Page 128 of 145 Billie Winner-Davis - Redirect Mr Nichols 128 1 A No I do not 2 Q Thank you No further questions 3 THE COURT Any follow up to that Mrs Solari 4 MRS SOLARI 5 THE COURT No sir Your Honor Mrs Davis I think I said this last time 6 that you were here with your husband but I think it bears 7 repeating again that certainly the love you have for your 8 child is exceptional and I think that's a great example for 9 other people of what you do when a parent is in a situation 10 like that Early retirement and moving here to be with her is 11 impressive So I thank you very much for your dedication to 12 her and your being here today to testify on her behalf 13 THE WITNESS 14 THE COURT 15 MR NICHOLS Thank you You may step down and be seated Your Honor we have no further 16 witnesses to call at this time 17 THE COURT 18 19 20 Okay Any factual proffers from the defense MR BELL There will be but I think it all ought to be done --- 21 THE COURT 22 MR BELL 23 I appreciate that Okay In an abundance of caution I think we'll do it all in there and sift it out rather than --- 24 THE COURT 25 MRS SOLARI Okay Mrs Solari The government has one proffer as well Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 129 of 145 129 1 but it's only suitable for a classified forum 2 3 THE COURT MRS SOLARI THE COURT 7 MR BELL 9 I don't believe so at this time Your Honor 6 8 So is there any further business that we can conduct in open court Mrs Solari 4 5 Okay Mr Bell Only if the Court wants -- and I assume brief summations after we have the other portion THE COURT Right That's probably appropriate So 10 we'll convene upstairs to have the classified portion 11 we'll reconvene here for any closing remarks the lawyers want 12 to make and then a ruling in the case 13 MR BELL 14 MRS SOLARI 15 THE COURT Thank you Your Honor Thank you Your Honor All right So let's take a 15-minute 16 break and I'll see you all upstairs 17 The hearing is adjourned 18 this hearing then resumes as follows 19 THE COURT 20 your closing remarks 21 Then A closed hearing is held and MRS SOLARI Mrs Solari do you want to begin with Yes Your Honor Thank you Your 22 Honor as I briefly noted at the outset the Court's findings 23 with regard to this defendant's risk of flight and her 24 potential for dangerousness to the community were correct in 25 the first instance were founded in the evidence presented and Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 130 of 145 130 1 have been even better supported today by evidence further 2 presented by the government and should not be disturbed 3 This defendant with regard to the nature and the 4 seriousness of the crime purposely and with forethought 5 betrayed our nation's trust by stealing classified national 6 defense information and sending it to a news outlet 7 that with the stated intent that our most closely-held secrets 8 would be published for the entire world to see and she did it 9 knowing that she could compromise U S intelligence sources and She did 10 methods and she did it knowing as anyone with the proper 11 training would simply looking at the marking on the document 12 that the disclosure of that document or any compromise of that 13 information could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally 14 grave damage to U S national security 15 So the defendant violated and it certainly appears had 16 planned to violate -- every oath she swore was taken just as 17 the oaths that Your Honor and I have taken without any mental 18 reservation for purpose of evasion 19 time she took that oath she knew that it was false and that she 20 always intended to violate that oath 21 then and is now somebody other than both the government at the 22 time it hired her and her family have believed her to be It seems that even at the So the defendant was 23 The defendant relies somewhat on her time in the military 24 to show the Court the content of her character but in so many 25 of her words and her actions Your Honor she's shown nothing Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 131 of 145 131 1 but contempt for our country and its security 2 security training 3 whose aim is to harm us 4 polygraph exam #gonnafail and told her sister even after her 5 sister asked her You don't really hate America do you and 6 she responded Well yeah I do 7 worst thing to happen on the planet 8 is to some degree hyperbole it is certainly a disconcerting 9 statement from someone who is believed at that time to be a 10 valued and trusted member of our intelligence community who 11 held our most precious secrets 12 She mocks her She celebrates people and organizations She captions her inability to pass a America is literally the Your Honor even if that So the Court was right in the first instance Your Honor 13 to wonder who this defendant really is and certainly her 14 parents who I think and her sister as well are lovely people 15 and they have seen the best parts of her 16 altruistic nature her curiosity about other cultures and 17 religions the fun side of her the kind side of her and 18 certainly hardly anybody in this world is all bad and the 19 government is not trying to say that this defendant is all bad 20 inherently evil or anything like that but the evidence in 21 this case exposes quite literally and not to be too pun'y 22 about it an alternate Reality 23 They have seen her The Reality that we can see through the evidence had a Tor 24 browser installed eight days before she undertook her 25 classified assignment at Pluribus She had a self-destructing Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 132 of 145 132 1 email inbox 2 eight media outlets seeking leaked information and she had the 3 details of sensitive U S counterterrorism targets stored in 4 her home with that information 5 searching for classified positions that would have given her 6 access to classified information at the same time she was 7 running queries about how to help Anonymous and wondering 8 whether WikiLeaks had been compromised 9 She had phone anonymizing instructions a list of The person we can see was The defendant we see lied to the FBI She lied first 10 about her commissioning offense then about when she installed 11 her Tor browser and then about the circumstances of her 12 inserting a thumb drive into a classified computer and perhaps 13 has even lied about the number of media outlets to which she 14 has disclosed classified information 15 just a clear duality here that can't be explained away as just 16 a series of bizarre coincidences 17 at play here So Your Honor there is There is something much more 18 We do know also that the defendant researched quite a bit 19 about travel employment and residence overseas which I agree 20 with Mr Bell is not per se illegal but she researched and 21 had a strong interest in going to living in gaining 22 employment in countries that would not be eager to hand her 23 back to us 24 knowledge and the extremely sensitive information she would 25 have to trade there is little doubt that she would be welcomed Given her language skills and her cultural Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 133 of 145 133 1 with open arms by a number of our adversaries and Your Honor 2 just a single disclosure of the sensitive information that the 3 defendant knows could potentially be catastrophic to our 4 national security 5 The strength of the evidence in this case is overwhelming 6 The defendant despite how the defense would like to 7 characterize it confessed to the FBI in a recorded 8 non-custodial voluntary interview 9 to her sister in another recorded conversation and She admitted her conduct 10 notwithstanding those two items Your Honor the forensic 11 evidence alone establishes that the defendant was the culprit 12 in this case 13 and the severity of her potential sentence really leave her no 14 reason to hang around the Southern District of Georgia 15 especially where her only contacts here are a rented home in 16 which her mother moved four or five days ago 17 So the likelihood of the defendant's conviction This supposed new and material information authored by the 18 defense Your Honor I would respectfully submit is neither 19 really new nor material and it just doesn't do anything to tip 20 the scales at all in favor of granting this defendant a bond 21 and again we have even more information now to justify 22 detention 23 Court simply can't trust this defendant to abide by any promise 24 that she could make to the Court regarding bond 25 shown a willingness to place her own judgment before that of So Your Honor I again respectfully submit the She's already Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 134 of 145 134 1 the U S Government place her own judgment ahead of the 2 security of our country and cause damage to the national 3 security at the risk of her own liberty 4 Your Honor the government put its trust in this defendant 5 once already and has paid a price for it and I submit that 6 under the circumstances and based on what we know of the 7 defendant we simply can't risk it again 8 respectfully ask that the Court once again order the 9 defendant be detained based on the fact that she is by a So Your Honor I 10 preponderance of the evidence a risk of flight and by clear and 11 convincing evidence a continuing danger to the community 12 13 THE COURT Thank you Mrs Solari Mr Bell 14 MR BELL Your Honor I'll try to be brief The 15 Court has been quite patient with us today 16 argument 17 documents instead of document 18 computers and phones and all -- phones and computers that may 19 have recordings of contacts with foreign and enemy countries or 20 organizations 21 out of caution ruled as it did rule 22 It's not just When we had the previous hearing we heard We heard about all sorts of We didn't know a lot And I think the Court The Reality Winner that her folks know and her sister 23 describes and the others describe is the real Reality 24 dedicated environmentalist 25 people She's a She cares deeply about other She is somebody who would like to travel to distant Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 135 of 145 135 1 and perhaps dangerous places to aid those in great need 2 has some sense of adventure 3 She She's been active in the welfare thing and as we heard 4 before she even goes to the Church of the Good Shepherd where 5 my family goes and I go 6 endangered knowing that Reality Winner was living down the 7 street or in their neighborhood 8 today 9 on in other parts of the world -- parts of the world that 10 11 I can't imagine anyone who would feel Those -- we heard a lot We heard information about curiosity as to things going involved her daily work I'm a news junkie Who wouldn't have that I wish I knew -- I read a lot of 12 books 13 not like but I learn a lot 14 -- with having -- particularly when it's your work wanting to 15 know about the different parties and what's going on in 16 Afghanistan or Kazakhstan or France or England 17 I like reading books about things and even people I may There is nothing wrong with not What we've heard is innuendo suspicion and what the 18 court requires to deny someone their constitutional right to 19 bail -- a right that they're presumed to have and they're 20 presumed innocent until proven guilty -- is not speculation and 21 innuendo much of which turned out to be unsubstantiated 22 issue that well maybe she might do something but then she 23 might not that's not clear and convincing evidence 24 not evidence by a preponderance of the evidence 25 The That's Using a computer browser that's used by the FBI and used Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 136 of 145 136 1 by millions of people is not clear and convincing evidence 2 takes a vivid imagination to find that that is even evidence at 3 all 4 create a permanent record of everything you put on your 5 cellphone is not clear and convincing evidence of anything 6 Wanting privacy from Google and Amazon and all those they sell 7 their stuff to is not clear and convincing evidence of 8 anything 9 Using whether it's Snapchat or whatever else that doesn't What is clear and convincing evidence is no criminal 10 record an honorable discharge medals a clear record no 11 priors or anything a family -- good family ties 12 compelling evidence 13 be with her 'til the end 14 you know -- regardless of her politics or what you agree or 15 disagree with in this land we honor it 16 suspicions based on what book someone reads or what world -- 17 parts of the world affairs one has interest in 18 It That's Her family is here with her and they'll We got a tree hugger here not a We don't draw Dropping left and right the word Taliban This isn't an 19 examination but let's explain something If you go watch 20 Charlie Wilson's War our hero and alibi -- ally -- in that 21 were the Mujahideen and the Taliban 22 overthrow of the government of Afghanistan that was appointed 23 by the Russians 24 people there were 25 maybe a party to a peace accord in Afghanistan America financed their They were our allies then and who knows what Now we consider them maybe an enemy or Hopefully Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 137 of 145 137 1 2 that happens There are parts of the country they control and there are 3 parts others do but what happened when America did invade 4 with -- and with -- to help the Afghanis throw them of control 5 Opium production skyrocketed because the Taliban -- maybe 6 they're too strict in their religion 7 about some of them we don't like but opium production in 8 Afghanistan the heartland for poppy fields and the opium 9 that's such an epidemic in America came from Afghanistan Maybe there are things The 10 world's principal source -- it has dried up and with our 11 efforts to crush the Taliban our former ally opium production 12 went up 13 Now this case is not about that but when you start 14 dropping names like Taliban instantly -- if somebody says 15 something or maybe doesn't say something evil about them 16 instantly they must be someone who is about to commit another 17 felony during pretrial release 18 suspicion 19 evidence and it certainly is not a preponderance of the 20 evidence 21 It is innuendo That's not evidence It's It's not clear and convincing Now much of what was the basis for the suspicion at the 22 first has turned out unfulfilled As the Court is aware it's 23 very few people who don't show up for trial on pretrial 24 release 25 often at the bottom of our community As the Court is aware those who don't show up are I remember the late Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 138 of 145 138 1 Judge Curry explaining to me who didn't show up and who did 2 show up and it was amazing 3 their mama they always showed up because they aren't breaking 4 the family ties and we have here strong family ties 5 If the defendant was close to That is clear and convincing evidence It's not innuendo 6 and suspicion and broad-brush maligning of an American citizen 7 who for whatever she might have done here has done a lot of 8 good for our country too -- has received commendations 9 No reason to hang around No reason to hang around the 10 Southern District 11 caught and who wouldn't want to spend their whole life on 12 that 13 It's a crime to run and if you run you get Overwhelming guilt Your Honor without going into the 14 details with these elements we do not think that the 15 government will be able to prove the elements of the charge 16 that they have brought against her or that the evidence will be 17 so weak on certain elements that there's a strong likelihood of 18 jury acquittal 19 they're trying to put a left foot into a shoe made for the 20 right foot 21 We think this is one of those cases where The Espionage Act of 1917 and as the Supreme Court said of 22 military secrets -- the movements of the Army and Navy It 23 read it narrowly Now I've got a book here 24 Whistleblowers I got it at the last American Association of 25 Justice meeting It's called It is produced by a very fine law firm about Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 139 of 145 139 1 the heroes of people who find wrongdoing -- what they perceive 2 Now it shouldn't involve classified information and I am not 3 suggesting it but there's statutes protecting it 4 We're not here about guilt or innocence but given the 5 presumption of innocence given the fact that she has a 6 presumed right to bail a right ensconced in the Bill of Rights 7 of the United States Constitution and given the rights that it 8 is routine in these types of cases we've not found a single 9 example of anything closely analogous and the government in 10 responding to our briefs had the perfect opportunity to say 11 so -- why somebody who's used a computer they are suspicious 12 somebody who uses sites suspicious 13 They haven't presented a single case where someone charged 14 with similar conduct has been denied their constitutional right 15 for pretrial defense and I would suggest without actually 16 knowing those but seeing what was described in the brief 17 describes these folks in greater detail these would be people 18 with far greater resources should they wish to leave the 19 country 20 related things 21 suspect knew far greater secrets than we have here and 22 probably was far more agile and had foreign contacts and had he 23 wished to run would have far more opportunity 24 25 Many of these were charged with multiple counts and Many of them such as a CIA agent probably I Reality doesn't have a passport and yet the people I have known of like Robert Vesco from back in the 70's and 80's Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 140 of 145 140 1 and that man Rich back in the 2000's who did not -- and the 2 movie producer who never has come back to stand trial for 3 improper sex with a minor under the age of 14 -- these are 4 people with resources money foreign contacts -- none of which 5 we have here 6 granted bail 7 None of which And yet those people were We're not looking at a rich and powerful defendant 8 Compared to these others she may well bear the title the 9 least of these Whether one agrees or disagrees with her 10 politics and without trying to condone what she did if she did 11 what they suggest she's done we don't see the sign of a 12 dangerous person -- do see somebody who spent the last few 13 months in jail and my experience and it's backed up by the 14 textbooks of criminology often it's the first weeks or months 15 of incarceration that have the most powerful and deterrent 16 effects 17 never had the chance to experience -- would scare the fool out 18 of me 19 go back again and I am sure that Reality a very intelligent 20 woman won't want to go back again will not violate any 21 condition of pretrial release will not risk her whole life 22 with additional charges for the opportunity to live on the lam 23 until caught because caught she will be if she didn't come 24 back 25 I know even a night in a jail -- something I have People who have never been to jail before don't want to The efforts of the government to find foreign contacts Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 141 of 145 141 1 have been to no avail but they say Oh it could happen 2 When did could happen become clear and convincing evidence 3 When did could happen become evidence bearing the weight the 4 probative value of a feather 5 And that's what we have here I know not what will happen in this case but she's not a 6 murderer and I've seen many murderers released on pretrial 7 release -- those charged with murder -- on pretrial release who 8 showed up for trial 9 charged with crimes and I've seen them in this court bearing I represented them I've seen many 10 much longer potential sentences than this and perhaps a few 11 past convictions who were released and came for trial 12 came for trial and then began a rather lengthy sentence Some 13 This is the great exception and there's no exception 14 warranted by this very peaceful non-violent woman -- educated 15 and wanting more education with a strong family no record 16 honorable military record things that the government in its 17 effort to paint a fair picture chooses not to mention and I 18 think the failure of the government to present evidence of the 19 good of Reality Winner along with whatever innuendo they want 20 to bring from owning a computer -- the Court doesn't let me 21 bring my cellphone in but I've changed chips 22 chips all the time on cellphones 23 pretrial release 24 don't get bombarded with your private information being sold 25 for others -- grounds for denial of pretrial release My kids change That's reason to deny Wanting privacy with your email so that you The Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 142 of 145 142 1 constitutional right 2 You don't have any problems with Reality It will save 3 the government money It will facilitate preparation for trial 4 having the client in Augusta close at hand rather than Lincoln 5 County requiring days of arrangements just to be able to get 6 her here or half a day of traveling back and forth for the 7 lawyers to get up there 8 release and in due course justice will be served again but 9 her further retention does not benefit society Justice will be served by pretrial It does not 10 protect society and it is not warranted under the facts of 11 this case the law or the customs as shown by our government 12 There is no good reason showing for an exception to the norm 13 and to the Constitutionally-mandated right 14 much 15 THE COURT 16 All right Thank you very Thank you Mr Bell Normally it is my strong preference to rule 17 at the conclusion of the detention hearing such as this one 18 immediately 19 parties that are going to require some further reflection by me 20 and some legal research and so I am going to reserve the issue 21 and will issue a written order on the issue of detention next 22 week There are however some arguments made by the 23 Just to make sure that everybody in attendance -- those 24 who aren't familiar with detention issues -- understands the 25 standard and the thing that I will be determining is whether Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 143 of 145 143 1 the government has satisfied its burden on two fronts 2 with respect to a flight risk is whether the government has 3 proved by a preponderance of the evidence that no condition or 4 combination of conditions will reasonably assure the appearance 5 of the defendant as required for the case 6 government's burden on the issue of danger to the community is 7 whether the government has shown by clear and convincing 8 evidence that no condition or combination of conditions will 9 reasonably assure the safety of other persons and the 10 11 One In terms of the community Certainly here I don't think anybody is worried about her 12 holding up a liquor store or causing anyone physical harm or 13 committing a burglary somewhere in Augusta 14 fronts it is more of a macro look at our country in general 15 Does she pose a risk of flight 16 to southern Florida but will she flee overseas 17 the issue of danger to the community whether she poses a 18 danger more to our national security than anybody that lives 19 next door to her or in the community 20 just referenced refers really to whether there is a reasonable 21 assurance of appearance and a reasonable assurance of safety 22 I think on both Not that she's going to flee And then on And the standard as I So those are the only things I wanted to point out here 23 today in terms of what the standards are and we'll issue a 24 formal legal ruling as soon as possible 25 Are there any other matters we need to take up today from Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 144 of 145 144 1 the defense's perspective Mr Bell 2 3 MR BELL THE COURT 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Okay All right Mrs Solari anything further from the government 6 7 We have covered many things and appreciate your attention to this matter 4 5 No Your Honor MRS SOLARI Nothing from the government Your Honor THE COURT All right Thank you End of transcript of record We're adjourned Case 1 17-cr-00034-JRH-BKE Document 120 Filed 10 12 17 Page 145 of 145 145 1 CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER 2 3 4 5 I Lisa H Davenport Federal Official Court Reporter in 6 and for the United States District Court for the Southern 7 District of Georgia do hereby certify that pursuant to Section 8 753 Title 28 United States Code that the foregoing is a true 9 and correct transcript of the stenographically-reported 10 proceedings held in the above-entitled matter and that the 11 transcript page format is in conformance with the regulations 12 of the Judicial Conference of the United States 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Lisa H Davenport ___________________________ 2017 10 10 13 03 55 -04'00' Lisa H Davenport RPR FCRR Federal Official Court Reporter