Excerpt from Record of Conversation between Mikhail Gorbachev and George Shultz April 22 1988 Moscow GORBACHEV Now about Afghanistan It seems to me that now the positions have become clearer The Soviet Union Afghanistan - and I mean its current government - are in favor of Afghanistan being a neutral non-aligned state As far as Iran is concerned Prime Minister Mousavi recently had received a messenger from Zia-ul-Haq They spoke about the necessity to depose the current regime and create a union of Islamic countries on a fundamentalist basis SCHULTZ I do not think Pakistan wants that GORBACHEV This is Iran's position This is what Mousavi said to Zia's messenger I do not know how he responded It appears to me that the United States and Pakistan lack realism Zia and the United States are still tempted to try and overthrow the current regime in Kabul This is where I see the main danger I would like to express the following thought if the Soviet Union only had in mind the preservation of what is currently in place and did not allow for anything different-- no coalition no recognition of the rights of the opposition it would have been unrealistic It would not have been in line with the exchange of opinions that you and I had about the future of Afghanistan that we envision as a neutral non-aligned state I do not know now how the Afghans will act Especially now when we are leaving it all became less clear But we do not get all our information from Najibullah we receive a lot of interesting information through other channels But to the extent possible we will act in the context of those exchanges of opinions you and I had Of course we have no direct agreement in that regard between us we are just acting as guarantors of the settlement Nevertheless we attach great importance to the way the United States is acting in this region After the signing of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty the Geneva Accords are a big event By the way I forgot to ask Will this treaty be ratified SCHULTZ Yes it will be ratified GORBACHEV Good Therefore right now after the Treaty the question s of how we are going to act in this region how we are going to untie this knot assume a special importance This is a test case of whether we will be able to develop our collaboration or it all will go back to the old approaches And this is important not only for the two of us The whole world is watching us A precedent is being created Our conclusion is as follows if you decline to cooperate with us in achieving the goal of making Afghanistan a neutral non-aligned state if you prefer a different approach it will be very difficult for us to engage with you on other issues And the world will say that it is risky to rely on Soviet-American guarantees So what is the main difference between our positions We as much as we can sympathize with Najibullah's efforts to form a coalition You sympathize with the cause of deposing him putting another regime into place based on an entirely different coalition I think that it would be a serious danger to the process of political settlement if you started seeking benefits for yourself if you did not abandon the temptation to get an Afghanistan that is convenient for you instead of creating a neutral non-aligned government there See it is easy to talk to me I am not blowing smoke the way diplomats do I am using a clear political language saying what I think SCHULTZ We support the idea of a neutral non-aligned Afghanistan We want Afghanistan to achieve a certain level of internal stability above all things because we want there to be the conditions necessary to allow refugees to return home safely to use the fruits of the agreements that we are the guarantors of We do not know where the Afghans will arrive in the process of settling their internal matters it is a mystery for us However they will arrive somewhere Afghanistan has historically been a country of great diversity a country of tribal instincts which is hard to tame with the power of a central government We will see later how it turns out in the end But we are in favor of a neutral non-aligned Afghanistan that would occupy its place in the region and would play a reasonable responsible role We support providing assistance to refugees and providing economic assistance for the purposes of rebuilding the country We support Cordovez's efforts in creating an interim government But I repeat I simply do not know how various groups within Afghanistan will settle the matter GORBACHEV Okay I would also like to highlight another aspect that is looming on the horizon right now Now the alliance intends to move to Iran And you provide them with military assistance What is it assistance for Iran SCHULTZ No thank you very much both laughing GORBACHEV I just wanted to point out this interesting moment in passing Well we will entrust the remaining questions to you and E A Shevardnadze SCHULTZ We will do our best GORBACHEV I will appreciate any progress I will be disappointed if there is none Right now we need really great efforts to turn the relationship in the right direction Otherwise we may lose everything we have achieved and leave it scattered in the wind In order for this not to happen it is necessary to act reasonably and thoughtfully and not under the influence of a moment of emotions Please give my regards to the President Tell him that I am very pleased with our conversation Pass it on to him that we are in favor of continous progress in our relationship we are against building our policies on the basis of some impulsive reactions I would really appreciate if at the beginning of his visit the President told me the same thing I told him during our one-on-one conversation in Washington let's not engage in mutual accusations let's make real policy I came to Washington to make real policy SCHULTZ Okay E A Shevardnadze and I will continue our efforts in preparing the meeting at the highest level We discussed the question of whether we need one more ministerial meeting I am in favor of such a meeting GORBACHEV And I would also like to say that you need to work even harder in order to make a meeting at the highest level substantive and meaningful as we have discussed SCHULTZ And we want it too GORBACHEV Our conversation today was a meeting of old friends And I am glad that this meeting took place this conversation with people who understand the significance of the SovietAmerican relations We are all in favor of improving them because the time has come our life has led us to this SCHULTZ I agree with you As usual I highly appreciate the opportunity and the privilege to meet and talk to you I know that the President is waiting for this opportunity as well Thank you Translated by Dayana Sarova for the National Security Archive This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu