wHEA Psillips Talbot m1 a 51 1 MENT 0 7 STATE - v - J 1 - Memorandum o Iconverso Jn 1 Approved in NH a or i 1 18 63 out I LIMIT DISTRIBUTION s s December 27 1352 SUBJECT Conversation with Israel Foreign Minister Meir 10 00 a m President 3 Foreign Minister Golda Meir of Israel 3 Ambassador Hermon or Israel 9 Eye Feldmen Deputy Special Counsel to the President Phillips Talbot Assistant Secretary of State for REA 6 Robert Kemer White House Staff COPIES TO 3 I 1 3 3 egg The hito Rouse - 2 Amenbessy'Jlnna 4 11112313333 Iii- rm LOIEDOH 1m ammo - 0310 oh Ee2 Initiating 70 minute discussion Foreign Minister unit said she brought Fbk reetings to the President from the Prime Minister of Israel All the people of Israel she said have been watching with joy what the President has been doing especially the way in which he handled the Cuban crisis Israel saw it not just as Cube HS issue but cs-a big problem effecting the world and is delighted at the way it came out Israel she continued has never questioned whether it should be in the free world Its path is clear Tues it appreciates US actions and has gained much encouragement from American concern with its security and from American friendship and understanding She was glad that this talk was taking place after the meeting of the General Assembly and would like to convey to the Presidentthe' nneli feelings about their area and their neighbors She is not really surprised when peeple do not see Israel's security problems as the Israelis do Mrs Heir said but she does that others try to understand Israeli views Israel is not anti Arab From the beginning it has been Israel' 5 desire to live at peace with the Arabs There is on identity in the Ezind of developments the Us and Israel would like to see in the Middle East i e each wishes an area in which every country is independent free of-h fear and free to concentrate on its con development Israel is sometimes called the only democratic country in the Middle Eest Israelis would like to se all the countries in the area both democratic and rapidly developing Tags 4 43% is LIMIT DISTRIBUTION 5 5 53 42 9 7762 390 Ire nts 'r'rror s s Authority 7 t roost region should be one of cooperation among the countries for the common good The arc is underdeveloped but Israel believes that it has possibilities and that Arabs would not action from cooperating with Israel in the direction or dove- 1 opment - Israel is perfect_y prepared to live within its present borders It doesn't 'want more land it doesn t need for example Jordanian sand On Israel's borders -re four Arab countries Israel has never had real trouble with Lebanon Cows occasionally wander over the border from Lebanon and are sent back Girls in the Israeli army may get lost and wander across the stancse border but they are very politely returned mono of these incidents are serious The Jordanian border was for years the scene of fierce actions but it has been quiet for years now There are _it is true some incidents For example two Israeli policeman were shot last year But when the Jordanian commanders in the area were transferred Israel knew that Jordan did not want trouble There was also trouble with the Jewish cemetery on the Jordanian side Israel tried in every way not to give this too-moon publicity and hopes to be successful in the settling or this matter too The Syrian border however is different Israeli agricultural settlements lio in the valley with the Syrian Army- posted in the hills overlooking them The Syrians sometimes open fire on these settlements On a visit Hrs Meir had made to one of the settlements two years ago sbc fonnd every house hit by shells This kind of ecti forces the Israeli Government either to tell its people to evacuate the area or to declare its responsibility for their security Finally the Egyptian border has been somewhat different since 1956 than before but Israel knows that the redaycen are tcing trained to attack Israel either directly iron Egypt or round-about across the Jordan border This as anyone could see is dangsrous situation with respect to Egypt Mrs Heir soid thot she believes quits objectively that Israel has been prepared for anything and everything that might make it possible to talk with Egyptian leaders about their common problems herself has tried repeatedly In 1936 woman in tbe'rotistnn Delegation at _tts 25 was willing to make an approach to the Arabs to get them to talk privately to rs lweir but it come to nothing On another occasion the hood of the Burmese Delegation bod 3 try there has so far been no result Then there is the question of arms preparations in the Arch countries especially in Egypt Israel knows that the Egyptians have been getting more cras from the Soviets lately sooecislly since the Icons fighting began but generally since Israel has seen that Soviet-supplied IU 165 have been able to fly from Egypt to Yemen drop bombs and fly back to Egypt IE they can do that what could they do to Israel Israel knows that Egypt rm s s AuthonWW motor -3- hos with German help been building ground-towgroond missiles since 15-60 to Israel has learned an it didn't Imow one or two months ago that the art making preparations for radiological warfare The warheads are to be filled with materials that would contaminate the land for years and years 2 ocean that if the refugees can't come back tho Egyptians think hot at least the land should not to avoilnbla to Israelis How Israel has information that Swot has established a secret budget of $220 250 000 000 for work of a' out four years or to on this Thom it of course nothing in tho o ficial Egyptian budget on this item no on what the Egnationo got from Russia Israel also hao the problem of its not frontier considering tho rumba of oubmarinoo that Egypt boo Egyptians say that Israel breathes through only one border - tho so border - since the land borders are taken onto of Maybe this is only Arab talk but the talk could noon something - 'l hia lira this continued is how the pooplo of Iaroel live the Israelis are no a frightened or panicky people but they am Very conscious of their security problems If l-lr Room toys in tho General assembly dooatc that Arabs are not convinced of Israel's poocoful intentions this sort of statomont may to objottivo but Israel cannot to objectivo on this oattor 1 1 the Middle Eastern noon the continued things are not static She held no brief for the old lam of Yemen and does not know what the youmz' out would alo if he had pootr Tho revolutionary change in Yemen could be a positive development - if it were allowed to happen only for the good of tho poopla and not to throw of one yoke merely to take on another Israel did not thing it right that Honour should have forced Syria into a union with Egypt either There is a constant shadow of llasoor'o ambitions in the Middle East Nor does he work alone Since Yozm he has gotten mm on from Russia Ioraol tum-Jo that he has done in Africa e 3 1n the Congo and Ghana Israel is also represented in Africa and Easter it always saying that Israel is the fore-rumor there of American and tritiah inpatitlioo 'i'hon lira Hair vent on there is tho tofugoo problem She noted the Prooiocnt to undoratond that Israel wants to too this problem solved In 1949 it had said it would take up to 190 000 refugees book Eton though than was no peace close to 40 000 came back rnerq are 230 000 to 240 000 Arabs living in lot-sol about 111 of tho populat on not all' of that are peaceful citizens For oamnplo as dwolopmont pro too go forward houses sometimes have to ho moved for new roads 0 other facilities Although no one likes hit house to be destroyed Jenni citizens accept it oven it they don't lilac it But a few months ago when a new and wan to be out through to Arab SECRET 1mm sis DECLASSIFFED Authority -4 ovillogc thereresa quite different reaction We were accused of taking something away from the Arabs They said they would put their women and ch-ldren right in front of any bulldozers brought in This is the sort of lin they always take The question is this even if Israel is to accept a very mall number of Arabs for what purposes would they be coming in In the United Nations the Arabs repent frankly and Openly for hours and hours the one refrain that Israel has no right to exist and must disappear This is the situation Israel knows about Arab plans to bring Arabs back to Israel and on to make an Algeria out of Israel They would create diffic lties wi tn the country then when the Israeli Government would do what any ate soul here to do under the circumstances the Arab countries would come to the help of these returning Arab refugees I I i The Government in Israel has two responsibilities Mrs Mkir ssid 0n the one hand it is reoponaibls for the entity and olfare of the people But in this generation the leaders of Iarae have anoth responsibility Twice before in history there has been'Jewishlsovereignty3 but botl times the country was occupied and the people dispersed IIhis generation has grits for the third time to establish a sovereign state and this could be the last time The whole world remembers what happened in Europe In Horld war 11 Eastern Europe 1 cheld the reservoir of people to come and make a fresh start in Israel Who knows what will happen to the three or three and a half million Jews in the They may never get out If something happens again so that the Jews are dispersed from Israel this could be the last time That is not a happy ideaii These Mrs Meir concluded are the problems of Israel She of course recognizes that the President's position causes all sorts of peeple to put their problems on his shoulders Israel does this too The United States has taken on the responsibility for the free world Israel is part of the free world and it is American interest and concern that have made it possible for Israel to bring its problems to the President i In response the President said that he appreciated Hrs Moir's full stctement In considering the problems of the world we should think of the 'future and especially of the next year or two Her last point was particularly important the burden which the United States carries for the free world Ho other country carries the same responsibility for distant countries for Korea South Vietnam India and Pakistan the iddle East Africa Latin America elsewhere Our concern is in maintsining the balance of power in the interest of the free world This is why we find ourselves involved in issues between the Somalia and EthiOpiana Indiana and Pakistanis Cambodians -aand Thais and so many other diaputes which are not part of what we see as the central struggle i c the struggle of free peoples against the Communist iBloc sects LIMIT DISTRIBUTION s DECLASSIFIED Meadow 5- Tke United States the President said has a special relationship Winn Israel in the Middle East really comparable only to that which it has with ritain over a wide range of world affairs But for us to play properly the role we are called upon to play we cannot afford the luxury of identifying Israel - or Pakistan or certain other countries - as our exclusive friends lhewing to the line of close and intimate allies for we feel that about Israel though it is not a fennel ally and letting other countries go If we pulled out of the Arab Middle East and maintained our ties only with Israel this would anot be in Israel's interest To be effective in our own interest and to help Israel the President _oontin and we have to maintain our position in the uiddlo East generally Our 1 interest is best served it there is a group of sovereign countries associated wit31 the Heat We are in a position than tornake clear to the Arabs that we will maintain our friendship with Israel and our security guarantees Looking ahead 12 months the President said we see many problems In the then crisis we went ahead in order to try to lessen the impact of'thc fighting on Saudi Arabia and the risk that s pro-unn regime might take over in Saudi Arabia we know that the Saudi Arabian Government is not the best in the world from your point of View but this seemed an action in your interest - The President continued that in the next two years or so he could see further problems arising which will put strain on United States' efforts to maintain good relations with Israel and with the Arabs One of these is the Jordan waters issue The United States has already given Israel some assurances on this but the Arabs are going to be anxious Another is the maintenance oi order on Israel frontiers with the Various Arab states United States feels that greater use should be made of the United Nations to eat these problems whereas Israel probably thinks that the UN actions are too slow Last Spring the US took a view which we knew was unpopular in Israel we took it in order to aaintain our position in the Middle East The third area of likely strain is the question of the refugees the ourth may arise when the- Hook missile starts coming in All of these are sing to 7e problems for us costing us something we know that Israel faces enormous scour ty prob1emsl' but on do too we came almost to a direct confrontation with the Soviet Union last spring and again recently in Cuba Indeed three or four times in the past year there hos been a sitaation which could been built up into a direct collision with either the Soviets or the aineso Betsusc we have taken on wide security responsibilities we sluny have the potential of becoming -involvcd in a major crisis not of our mnkin3 a a in the event of a coup 9 am LIMIT DISTREUTION 5 8 ma 0 - - i - - - Authority w SECRET -5- I in Iran or of the Sine-indian affair Our security problems are therefore just as great as Israel' a We have to concern ourselves with the whole Middle East 0 1 these questions - of water of the UN role and reprisals of refugees and of missiles though that is not exactly similar to the other matters - we l are asking the coOperation of Israel in the same way that we are cooperating uith Is cal to help meet its needs Israel doubtless thinks of itself as cecal endangered - if the Arabs come up with skilled manpower and 'if they Ethreate Israel - and Israelis have a tremendously deep patriotic sense Our position in those matters may seem to be asking Israel to neglect its interests EThe reason we do it is not that we are unfriendly to Israel but in order to help more effectively I think it is quite clear that in case of an invasioa the United States would come to the support of Israel as have that capacity and it is growing Also the United States is helping Israel economically We would like now to see if we can make some progress as refugees and maintain our friendship with Israel without constantly cutting across our other interests- in the Middle East when Israel takes actions in these matters we hope it will understand our problems as well as its own Mrs Meir said that Israel welcomes the growing US influence in the Middle East because it will help the Middle East in a way that is friendly to Israel she might give an example of what happens with the UN and shooting incidents zen Syria resumed shooting early in December Prime Minister Ben Gurion called in General Von Horn two days later Von Horn told the Prime Minister that his observers had not yet finished their report than he took another four days - to'visit Damascus If the matter had been handled preperly he should have himself informed the Israeli Government immediately that all necessary steps were being taken without delay and he should have gone to Damascus without Israeli prodding The President responded that he did not know the details of this particular case His central point however was that the -United States is interested in the security of the free world and is trying to assert its influence in this direction There are gambles involved in all our programs In t E Middle East - we have the twin problems of being historically and obviously asso iated with Israel and especially in this Administration building on that a otiation through our actions with respect to the Jordan waters Hawks and aid while at the same time we have other responsibilities in the Middle East Israel the United States and the free world all have difficult surivsl pr blems we would like Israeli recognition that this partnership yhich ws nve with it produces strains r the United States in the Middle st I 9 - LIMIT DIS IBUTION ale- l I r - Authority -7- When Israel takes such actions as it did last spring whether right or in ong those actions involve not just Israel but also the United States We are lbe 11w es ed to understand by Israel By the same tol en We believe that Israel should consider the interests of the United States Because of its ties with he United States Israel does not have to depend wholly on its own efforts for security but on the United States as well When we discuss these problems the Pro ident added he would hope Mrs Heir and the Prime Minister would recognize that on our part have tried to work out a good relationship and that Israel should do tho ssme we would hope Israel could proceed in such a way as to lessen coll ions between us Hrs Heir asked the President to believe that the overwhelming majority of Israeli people never have doubts about the position of the U S gis a vis Israel Israel has a double security problem It is part of the free orld and it also is involved in a private war When Syria shoots at Israeli villages there are mothers and children there The Government must tell them that thoy will take care of their security As to the refugee problem Hrs Meir asked the President to recall that 91 his talk vi the Prime Minister in the spring of 1961 the latter had not rgued t- ith the President' a ideas He had said he use not sure that the U 8 would succeed in these efforts but they were worth a try Israel still stands where the Prime Minister had at that time said it stood and still supports what the President said at that time The President noted that obviously Israel cannot accept a flood of refugees 1The Arabs have their troubles too Maybe no compromises are possible But he did not think we should give up On refugees They are costing the United States money and they cause great damage to the prospects of peace what we were trying to put together may have been impossible Israel needed reassurances The Arebs obviously could not make advance commitments Our Judgment however was that the great majority of refugees would resettle We_hsve not made any progress on the Johnson Plan and that is gone But we should keep trying He is not convinced that it is impossible The fact is that if we don't get a settlement we face an almost impossible position It is like the Kashmir dispute a settl rent might seem impossible to achieve but it is equally impossible to let this dispute run on and blow up This country is really interested in Israel the President said as he is personally We are interested that Israel should keep up its sensitive tremendous historic task What we want from Israel arises because our relationship is a LIMIT s s DECLASSIFIED Autho tYW -3- two-es street Israel's security in the long run depends in part on what it does with the Arabs but also on us He would hope for example that Isrsel tonic give consideration to our problems on this atomic reactor We are Opposed to nuclear proliferation Our interest here is not in prying into Israel's affairs but we have to be concerned because of the over-all situation in the Middle East 2hr Heir reessured the President that there would not be any difficulty between us on the Israeli nuclear reeotor She also said she wanted to suggest that at least t e first one or two talks in the new round of US-Isrseli dis- cussions about the refugees should be held in Israel This would permit participation in the talks by the Prime Minister who could bring to then his full authority How helpful it would he she went on if only the Arabs would agree to follow the President's proposals on refugees IndeedI it might be helpful if there we possibility of getting Israeli representatives together with Egypt-1n leaders for talks which could be held anywhere Just to have direct discussions about their common problems we could be sure that the Israelis would not be the ones to reveal publicly any private talks Tee President thanked the lair for coming to see his in Palm Beach As she left she reiterated her hope that the beginning of the next round on efugees could be conducted in Jerusalem SECRET LIMIT DISTRIBUTION s s 4- I This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu