DECLASSED Authority Mwogq seq var-511W W- hhgp wd or srArs W0 A If 718 X16 F r ML Memorandum of Conversation - Approvgd by White House The White House 31 63 ll a m 25 1963 DEF My 2 26 vs Review of French Foreign Policy SUBJECT brie rain gg France' PARncme The President Foreign Minister Couve de Nurville William R Tyler Ambassador Herve Alphand Assistant Secretary Charles Lucet Diree of Political Affairs Foreign ff1 e to SOV 7 hwg Amemb endon - 95-3 Amem b Bonn 5 - White House 2 66 r The Pres dent greeted the ForefEh Minfgfer and said he was gladj to see him He asked how things were going on in France The Minister sa'd the economic situation was generally favorable but there was a danger of inflation The government was taking certain measures such as limiting credit increasing taxes and liberalizing imports The President stressed the importance the United States Government attaches to increasing the volume of trade He said he We thought so long as the interest rates and the costs of France and e r the United States remained relatively stable we could look forward to such an increase The Foreign Minister said he thought that the greatest need of the West was to have a sound monetary policy Wmhis aspect of the common interest of the West was not being adequately discussed The President agreed and said that matters of this sort$ tended to be treated too technically and to remain too much in the ag j hands of the bankers who do not see them in terms of the national j t interest ifs The President then turned to the US balance of aymen- difficulties He said that the United States wouk shor ganother $2 5 billion this year The danger was not so much a matteg ef loss of dollars as the possibility of a run on gold 1 This was our big Lproblem The President said that every time it was proposed 5-1254 SECRET GROUP 1 Secluded from automatic and sdlassifioation A DECLASSIFIED Authority MN D cl 534 we take some steps to bring our payments into balance we were exposed to loss of confidence in our currency which took the form of a run on the dollar Couve asked whether the United States Government had ever considered changing the international price of gold 'The President asked in turn whether this would not cause a run on the dollar Conve said it would not because everyone would have already agreed on the new price beforehand and each currency would be pegged to it when it came into effect He went on to say that he thought that the United States was dealing with the problem of the balance of payments piecemeal The United States he said does not have a real deficit It has a foreign trade surplus He said he thought that tourists should be counted under trade He said the real trouble was that there was too much export of US capital abroad The President agreed that tourists are a form of trade He pointed out that we lose $1 5 billion under this category in addition to our expenditures for military and foreign aid programs Couve observed that tourists represented something more than trade that they played an important political and role in international relations The President asked the Foreign Minister what are the objectives of French foreign policy Couve replied that France's first task was to bring about some kind of union of Western Europe A start had been made with the Common Market and other international institutions In the long run one must foresee the existence of the two big powers the United States and the Soviet Union The Soviet union as the result of the last war now found itself partly in Europe It was important that Europe help to keep the balance with the assistance of the United States He thought that the present Soviet position and role in Europe would not last forever perhaps 50 years or 20 years In any case the only thing to do was to build up European unity and strength Europe would never be able to fight alone or to provide by itself for its security It would_always need US support Eventually there would have to be some form of accommodation in Europe by the Soviet Union This was what General de Gaulle meant when he said Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals He said Europe had begun the process of unifica- tion in the economic field and this would be followed by progress in the swam 5 1%g ldif Authority NN 55H in the political and military fields but this would not be outside the'framework of the Atlantic alliance It was important that ties within Europe between the various countries be multiplied The Franco-German pact was an example of such drawing together ' Couve said that the pact itself added nothing substantive to the relations between the two countries but tied them more closely to one another He said that the object of French policy in Eur0pe was to link Germany so to the West that she would never be in a position to fight a war in Europe without French consent There was increasing training of German troops and stockpiling of supplies for the German armed forces in France Couve said that the UK was part of Europe and in the long run must join Europe The breakdown of negotiations in Brussels had been unfortunate but the real reason for this was that the EEC did not want the participation of the United Kingdom to change the nature of the European Economic Community The UK was still subject to a conflict between its relations with the EEC with the Commonwealth and with the United States Couve said he had already felt as long ago as last October that the UK would find itself unable to join the Common Market Couve then discussed the charges which were frequently aired publicly that France was promoting an inward-looking Europe Some people continued to say this and thereby created misunderstanding The facts were that Europe was only inward- looking politically to the extent that it was trying to find itself and to create its unity In the economic and commercial fields however Europe was outward-looking in relation both to the liberalization and increase of trade and its responsibilities toward the less developed countries He pointed out that the common external tariff of the EEG was lower than that of the British and relatively lower than the US tariff average Couve then repeated again that Europe could only be said to be inward- looking in a very limited sense and that in any case the United States could not be left out of the life of Europe in the political and defense fields The President thanked the Foreign Minister for his remarks and asked why it was that these thoughts which all sounded very reasonable SECRET Emma Authoritywei SECRET -4- reasonable seemed to take the form of being directed against the United States The President mentioned specifically General de Gaulle's press conference of January 14 which had created this impression over here The President said that the danger of a Soviet attack against Europe nowadays was minimal He - thought that Europe was quite secure militarily now The Soviet Union's problem he said lay in the direction of Communist China rather than Europe There were really no problems of major importance between the United States and France and yet the general atmosphere seemed to reflect a situation in which there were basic differences and disputes between the two countries Couve agreed that the interests of France and the United States were essentially the same He said he thought the only area in which there was a real dispute was in the nuclear field He said that the United States felt that since it had more than enough to deter the Soviet Union it was a waste for others to build nuclear weapons France also understood the US position on the nonproliferation of nuclear weapons However France had a different position because France is a different country and because she must herself look to her own future From the French point of View there was a strong argument to be made in favor of her having nuclear weapons just as the British had them France he said would never help the Germans to make nuclear weapons The President said he understood that these were the reasons why France had made the deCision to be a nuclear power We recognized this fact of life and he wondered just where it was that France and the United States were at odds Couve said he did not think they were The President said Western Europe was as militarily secure as any place could be these days The nuclear matter has been settled It is now merely a question of whether the United States was right or wrong He didn't think there was any dispute at this time Monetary policies were much more important He thought the thing we must do a little later was to agree on the coordination of our nuclear forces The President said that it seemed to him that the US decision to make an offer to the French on Skipjack plus the open door held Authority a 2- 'r held out to France at the time of the Nassau meeting represented a beginning of movement on what might have been a useful road of cooperation in the nuclear field He said that the United States also felt that the concept of the MLF was responsive to major German and Italian concerns and desires to play a part in nuclear defense The Nassau Agreement was not preventing Prime Minister Macmillan from fighting a campaign against Harold Wilson on the basis of maintenance of the national nuclear deterrent which was what de Gaulle himself would be arguing for The Foreign Minister said that there was a basic difference in between France and the UK The French agreed to or disagreed with a proposition on the basis of principle The British on the other hand made the decision on the basis of convenience and then made the adjustment of a factual situation so as to conform to principle The President pointed out that Macmillan had had a problem on his hands as a result of the failure of Skybolt He had Come to Nassau with a state- ment by over a hundred backbenchers protesting against the cancellation of Skybolt Couve said France had nothing against the special relationship to the US which was understandable because of the special ties of language and tradition between the two countries It was only when this special relationship intruded into problems of immediate concern to the UK and to Europe that there were difficulties Ambassador Alphand at this point injected the remark that France does not oppose the idea of nuclear cooperation with the United States Couve said that France did not wish to join the MLF but was not opposed to it The President mentioned the value of the idea 0f the MLF in relation to the German problem Couve said he had misgivings on this point because he damgn the MLF would look increaSingly like an essentially US-German business with a few other much less important countries such as the Italians added He was not sure that the MLF really met German require- ments and feared that it would rather whet the German appetite in the direction of an increasing nuclear role particularly in view of the size of the German contribution The President observed that he thought the French force de frappe was a far greater incentive to Germany to play a national nuclear role than the MLF Couve said he was convinced that the Germans with SECRET AuthorityM LS i with their twelve divisions and their important share in the HLF would want to increase their nuclear role He said it might be true that France was giving Germany a bad example but France had done everything by herself and on her own How could Germany do likewise Where could she get uranium or testing sites The President said that Israel was able to get uranium Gouve said that even if the Israelis get an atomic device they would be able to make trouble but they would not be able to wage nuclear war in the real sense of the word The President asked Couve if it was his judgment that we would do better not to go ahead with the MLF Couve said that from all the reports he had of what the Germans were saying about the MLF he had doubts and apprehensions about it The President asked if France would help the Germans in the nuclear field if the US gave up the MLF Couve replied certainly not He said that people speak about a European nuclear force but this could only happen if there existed a European political power This might perhaps come about in 10 or 15 years' time In that event the German problem would be a different one and Germany would be part of the European political power In the meantime there are the French and the UK independent deterrents with national vetos on their use The President said he hoped one day we could discuss with France what should be done about China He asked what was the view of General de Gaulle Couve said the French Government thinks that China's rift with the Soviet Union will deve10p and increase and will be a major factor in the next ten years The President asked Couve what he thought the policies of the West should be in SEATO and in Southeast Asia Couve said one should also consider the role of Japan which considers herself as being the most knowledgeable of the Western oriented powers about China The President asked what should be done about Southeast Asia and whether India should be built up Couve said France did not think that China wanted to take over Southeast Asia but rather to establish a buffer region between the United States and China If this View was correct the best thing would be to achieve a political solution of the problems in that area The President asked about Laos and what should be done there He said that if things went SECRET DECLASSIFIED Authoriww on deteriorating as they are now we would all be in serious trouble Couve said he did not think that much could be done other than to go on with patience and modesty He did not think that it was possible to pursue a major policy or that there was much that could be done The President brought up again the Israeli nuclear problem He said he hoped that Couve would have an opportunity to discuss it with the Secretary of State Couve said that France had made a mistake in having furnished Israel with plutonium Now France was only leasing and not selling uranium to Israel He went on to say that the only cheerful area was Africa France had recently signed a good agreement with Guinea He thought that things were going along pretty well with Algeria The President mentioned that there were great difficulties in Haiti and asked about the French position there Couve said there were several hundred French nationals in Haiti He said that the message which de Gaulle had sent to Duvalier in reply to his letter had been sent off by coincidence at the time of the crisis The President said we were watching the situation closely and that we could not allow the creation of another CastrOvtype regime in this hemisphere Should this occur we would have to intervene The President again asked the Foreign Minister what could be done to improve the image of our relations with France He referred to the recent GATT Ministerial Meeting and said that that had finally gone off all right after some difficulties The President referred to rumors that France was contemplating taking more of her ships out of NATO The Foreign Minister refrained from commenting on this last remark by the President but said that France attached very great importance to the GATT meeting and to the trade field as a whole The President recalled that he had told General de Gaulle when he had seen him in Paris in 1961 that the United States would welcome an increased European role in Latin America and that France because of her great cultural tradition as well as her economic and commercial role could play a considerable part in our efforts to improve and stabilize economic and political conditions in that area The Foreign-Minister agreed that this was in France's interest as well as ours The conversathn came to an end at about 12 15 This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu