X 0 MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATI 0N Time November 9 f973 l l0-3 05 p m Participants United States Honorable Harold Brown Secretary of Defense Honorable Michael Mansfield U S Ambassador to Japan Honorable David E McGiffert Assistant Secretary of Defense ISA John G Kester The Special Assistant to the Secretary and Deputy Secretary of Defense Michael H Armacost Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense East Asia lnter-American Affiars ISA William C Sherman Deputy Chief of Mission American Embassy Tokyo Nitholas Platt Senior Staff Member National Security Council Albert Seligmann Political Counselor Japanese Embassy Tokyo Japanese Honorable Sonoda Sunao Minister of Foreign Affairs Honorable Arita Keisuke Vice-Minister Foreign Affairs Honorable Nakajima Tbshijiro Director General American Affairs Bureau Ministry of Foreign Affairs Honorable Takashima Masuo Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs Honorable Okazaki Hisahiko Foreign Ministry Honorable Tamba Minora Chief of Security Division Ministry of Foreign Affairs Mr Sato Yukio Private Secretary to the Foreign Minister Foreign Minisister Sonoda suggested that in view of the short amount of time available he and the Secretary skip elaborate introductions Sonoda undertook to lead off commenting that in Japan the weaker player at the game of go always started off He said that speaking frankly several years ago he was inclined to think in terms of a State Department view and a Defense Department view but that today Secretaries Vance and Brown were in accord which made it easier to deal with one view in regard to both thinking and actions Sonoda said that one year ago Asi countries were concerned that the U S was withdrawing from Asia This concern had been conveyed by Japan to the President and Secretary Vance In that Asian countries n so many words said the U S could not be relied upon 1%K4 g n Ckh- fca4so Now this state of affairs had completely change and Asian countries pursued their nation building with their U S relationship as the key element Two major factors were responsible for this change major Speeches by Secretary Brown Secretary Vance and others and actions by the United States such as those demonstrating its staying power in Korea - eaortfi sm EEG ambit ELM er @512 @9412 Sonoda said maintenance of the US-Japan security treaty was his first concern as Foreign Minister while the first concern for the Defense Minister was how to implement the treaty Sonoda had been telling the leaders of other countries including the Soviet Union that Japan's relations with the U S were the cornerstone of Japanese fereign policy What Secretary Brown had accomplished in the past year had contributed to strengthening Japan s position With the security treaty as the cornerstone of Japanese foreign policy the U S and Japan united could avoid conflict Japan needed to stabiliZe the use of U S bases in Japan to produce confidence among the Japanese people that the government could deal with an emergency Sonoda said he was aware of U S budgetary constraints and the effect of yen appreciation The government was exploring ways in which the Japanese side could cooperate It was important to get the understanding of the Japanese people and neighboring countries including the Soviet Union that the U S and Japan were in accord Recently voices were heard in Japan calling for the strengthening of the Japanese defense forces but he could not welcome these unconditionally There were two arguments 1 Japan must act within a framework consistent with the U S Japan security relationship 2 U S forces were insufficient and un- reliable in an emergency so that Japan must strengthen its own forces Sonoda said the second argument was dangerous and he would do his best to see that the first argument prevailed His personal view was that it was not in order to enter into a diet debate on the need for emergency legislation He was no expert but it seemed to him the self-defense forces could do much within the context of present legislation by reorganizing their structure by strengthening naval forces as opposed to emphasis on ground forces Elsewhere in Asia Sonoda took note of the tensions on the lndo-China peninsula but said he did not believe it would lead to war Similarly he thought the interaction among the interests of the Soviet Union China and the United States should prevent major conflict from taking place on the Korean peninsula Sonoda said he was sure labor-cost sharing had been discussed in detail with the Defense Minister He would only point out that while he fully appreciated the problemlwhatever Japan did had to be worked out within the framework of the SOFA In regard to actual figures if the ratio of support were compared Japan was well on a par with west Germany Recalling his remarks with regard to cabinet-level discussion of security matters Sonoda said he was avoiding at this stage reorganization of the US-Japan security system lest it be related mistakenly to signing of the PFT or some other develop- ment Japan's role was to prevent conflict in Asia and to cOOperate to avoid U S involvement in conflict Accordingly there was need to inject political 'views into frequent exchanges at a cabinet level in which Japan could present its throughts on the security system and its political judgments-as it pursued its foreign policy Finally Sonoda said he was convinced from his frank exchanges with Chinese leaders that there was a change in the PRC attitude toward Taiwan and the possibility of conflict with the United States had declined appreciably Secretary Brown said the Chinese had chosen to make Taiwan the central question in regard to normalization - The U S in turn was committed to normalization but maintained the strong view that it hoped to resolve the Taiwan question peacefully We wished to retain economic and cultural ties with Taiwan and preserve its access to necessary military equipment Fortunately the Chinese without abandoning their principles have indicated they are a patient peOple Sonoda said Japan hoped to pursue its relations with the Soviet Union and not just lean toward China Japan strived for expanded equilibrium When Teng came to Japan Sonoda told him that opposition to normalization in the U S was rooted in pro-Taiwan sentiment rather than in anti-PRC sentiment There had been substantial economic growth in Korea and Taiwan and many countries were investing in Taiwan He suggested that the PRC concern itself about the prosperity of Taiwan citing the example of Hong Kong Asked by the Chinese how he thought the PRC should proceed in establishing closer relations with the U S Sonoda had told them they should take the box and leave the contents up to the U S side it was necessary to reSpect the status quo of Taiwan in the light of the economic background of the situation Sonoda said he saw no sudden change in PRC attitudes although Taiwan might turn to the Soviet Union Teng however had said he did not think this would happen Secretary Brown said the key question was whether the PRC would refrain from a theoretical question for the next few years inasmuch as it lacked the capability of taking Taiwan by force This was partly a question partly a question of the Future it was too much to expect an explicit renunciation of the use of force but we needed some reassurance The dilemma was to be sureywithout occasioning damaging public statements by those concerned Sonoda said that when he asked about renunciation of the use of force he had received an interesting answer which he asked the Secretary to hold closely Teng said that if a statement were to be made that ferce would not be used it would not be possible to have a peaceful settlement It was in this context that Sonoda had responded that it was better to leave implemen- tation up to the U S the PRC should not worry about the contents of the box He added that Taiwanese anti-communist sentiment would also probably keep them fnom turning toward the Soviet Union Secretary Brown agreed that barring some major catastrophe such as invasion that it was very unlikely that Taiwan would turn to the USSR Asked for his impressions about Korea Sonoda said that heagreed with the Secretary that the atmosphere had improved The Secretary described the ROK's confidence as manifested in its economic plans for major expansion and described a visit to the Chiangwon industrial complex Sonoda said he too was impressed by Korea's economic growth but the problem was how long it would continue in view of such problems as a labor shortage and inflation As he had indicated to President Carter he was also cqncerned about the attitude of Koreans toward money and patriotism particularly when they left their country Secretary Brown pointed out that Korea continued to sustain an annual growth of lo percent and that increasing numbers of young people were receiving education in technical skills to enhance the skilled labor force _Hhile there was concern about human rights the effects of prosperity were well felt throughout the country Assistant Secretary of Defense Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense International Security Affairs international Security Affairs East AsiaSPacific lnter-Amerlcan Affairs This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu