bill on 1 26 2012 at 18 31 52 Page 4 Record NUmber 59124 SET Nuclear Nonproliferation 2 DATE 06 28 1963 CIRCD TIME TITLE Tour d Horizon CTIT Anglo-American Discussions of Problems and Prospects of Multilateral Force DOCUMENT TYPE Memorandum of Conversation DOCNO CLASS Top Secret ORIGIN United States Department of State Bureau of European Affairs DESTO DESTP SIGNATOR Jones Lewis SIGNATOR Burdett William LENGTH 10 VARTY NAMES Rusk Dean NAMES Douglas Home Alexander Frederick NAMES Bundy McGeorge NAMES Couve de Murville Maurice NAMES Peyrefitte Alain NAMES Kennedy John F NAMES Thorneycroft Peter NAMES Mountbatten Louis NAMES Bruce David K E NAMES Heath Edward NAMES Messmer Pierre ORGAN North Atlantic Treaty Organization Atlantic Command Supreme Allied Commander ORGAN North Atlantic Treaty Organization TERMS Nuclear powered ballistic missile submarines TERMS Multilateral Nuclear Force TERMS Nuclear sharing TERMS Command and control TERMS Medium range ballistic missiles LOCOR National Archives CLLNO Record Group 59 Records of the Department of State Executive Secretariat Conference Files 1949 72 BOX 318 FOLDR CF 2275 President s Trip to Europe 6 23-7 2 63 Memcons PUBAU PUBCA PUBTI PUBL WEB WDATE IPHRS nuclear Germany preventing thru MLF AFOIN SEQNO FOISN I WDECLASSIFIED 2 BwaARADate i425 25 The President s European Trip 8 Approved in -3 17 35 63 TOP seam We Summary Record at Conversation Subject Tour 6 'lior'izon Date June 28 1963 Time 1200-9 m Plaeea-l Carlton Gardens London Par ciggta 11 8 - The Secre ry of State Lord Home Mr MeGeorge Bandy Minister of Defence Thorneyeroft Mr Lewie Jones Sir Herold Caccie Mr William Burdett - Ambassador Cauchy-Gore Ambassador Bruce later Sir Robert Scott Ministry of Defence Lord Privy Seal Heath 9 Oliver Wright Private Secretary to Lord Home For distribution see page 10 Berlin The Secretary naked Lord Home whether he had seen the lete et intelligence reports from BerlinThe Secretary thought we Inight be in for a tenee weeksend Mr BundyVe Visit to Paris The Secretary suggested that Mr Bundy tell the table whet had transpired in the course at hie talk with the French Foreign Minister Mr Bundy said that the French as usual were working on two levels Couv do Murville me very measuring regarding the French attitude towards the United States generally and the President's visit to Europe at the some time thet Alain Peyrefitte was casting doubts upon the long range intentions of the United States There was not much else to report mp SECRET ruua - - - DECLASSIFIED 1 4 Authority NW By% NARA Date 125 12 SECRET 2 Command The Secretary said that an idea new to him had emerged from talks with French Minister of Defense Monomer it might be possible to arrange for the French to hev'e a new NATO command which would cover part of the channel and the cadets of France and Spain Most of this new command it created would come from SACLANT The French might then recommit navel fmto NATO He wondered of the UK had any vio we on this possibility said that he thought this idea was worth looking at closely Sir Robert Scott egre ed MLF Lord Home said MLF hes no parliamentary support and this was crucial to the UK moving forward A new objection to MLF had ai-isen lately i e that this new w eepons eyetezn would create new EasteLWest tensions at a time when our purpose is by and large to calm thinge down He eeid many parliamentarians think the German interest in is merely as stepping stone towards the possession of nuclear weapons Thonneycrott s aid that Admire Ricketts' visit had been most useful and he believed that all those who bed studied the motto - now accepted MLF as a feasible oystem the vessels could be made to work However there we the new political degamen against MLF 1 3 the new system would emcerbate teneion's Moreover the British military are not convinced that MLF will add 'm'eesneehly to Western defense He said he knew of no parliamentariene prepared to say a word in favor of MLE Lord Home commented that he did not helieve that the President would expect a British decision on MLF immediately The President was going on to Rome and would he sounding out the The Secreary commented that the President wonld not wish to tie his hands no et Birch Grove but he must ejdy that among the alternatives available one in no__3 hitting where we are Lord Home wondered whether the Germans might not be given what they wanted by giving them a shalre in the control of NATO nuclear weapons without getting Germans on ships a 1 3 SECRET DECLASSIFIED Authority W051 NARA Date 125% SECRET -3 The Secretary commented that any control given the Germans in the present systerns would have to involve MRBM's presumably in Germany A - U that the British argument for nuclear subtract-inn was primarily a political one They- did not argue mat the new British submarines would contribute importantly to the megs-tonnage available to defend the Wcs Mr Bandy said the United States is not in a tremendous hurry but it is highly important that we made the European conscious of their problems Lord Home suggested that a body might be eetu auo consisting of the three nuclear powers plus Germany plus two routers This control mechanism might he the first thing to ckle The Secretary objected that this inrolved honorary membership of Germany in club This would not he very mesningtul Lord Home slid that the nuclear powers would retoin the veto Mr Buudy said that it was important to avoid one thing that the Germans would come to say that they were all set with the 0 3 tor the hut at the last minute the British had stopped the project It thie ides become widely disseminated it would make for trouble in the future Lord Home asked the Secretary exactly why the U 3 objects to nucleer submarines Did Dickie Mountbatten bump the U 8 of at the scheme for submarines It might help the UK with its difficulties to know why the 11 3 considered submarines not feasible The Secretory replied that the problems of mince vessels are much less than with euh surfece vessels Another factor was the genuine 0 5 fear that the security of the mechanism nucleer submarines might be compromised some oi the NATO pertners have security eyetems lees tight then our own Lord Home wondered aloud whet would hoppen if the ides me put into of some sort oi mixed manned system without saying exactly whet he wondered whether anything would come out Thorneycroft said that anything put into NATO would raise the issue of France and the other countries 1m SECRET u hmity MW 331% NARA Date 2 -4- The Secretary thought putting it into would represent duplication of years of thought and effort which hadalready gone into planning He said that 3 8 believes the USSR has made the decision to increase its armaments This being so he believed the West should increase its armaments and that the 31 8 should assist in this endeavor Thorn yeroit said that there was the unresolved problem of nuclear versus conventional weapons lie exclaimed The U S is the only place in the world where the Congress urges more defense expenditures when the Secretary said We need both conventional and unconventional Thorneycroft replied 501 will not get both from Europe Mr Bandy commented that Europeans feel fully protected but not fully involved Lord Home asked whether we might get the French geared into some management machinery for nuclear weapons It wonld be a good thing to get Franee in on jointlyemaneged forcee Lord Home said that the prospects for parliamennry approval being so dim he supposed that the U 8 might go ahead with the Germans and the lullens The Secretary said If we did me could you stay out Lord Home in effect answered Yes since it is not possible for the UK to go in N33 sen The Secretary said it was important to get down to the guts of the matter He recalled the agreement spade at Nassau end wondered what the British attitude was to cutting the Germans into a role-ea role British public Opinion is not ready for Wasn't that the problem - Lord Home said it was partly the problem but the idea that MLF would create teneione was held very strongly in many quarters It was a new angle a new problem cop SECRET Authmity NARA Date 429 12 EOLSECRET e553 Thomeycroft said that if you are to create a European force you must have France in from the start France is the heart of Europe France is going ahead with developing the nuclear weapons He thought the 0 8 and the UK must do some sharing of knowledge with France if they are to achieve some cooperation on the nuclear side Mr Bondy asked What is there in that for the Germans Lord Home seemed to say nothing The Secretary said that if a European unclear deterrent means that 5 percent of the West s total nuclear power can dedde regarding the use of 95 percentof the West's nuclear power 11 9 U S power Europe should recognize that this was just not a possibility The 0 8 would not stand for it - Lord Home said that he thought the Secretary was perfectly right The U 8 must in any European effort be a leading member of the board Mr Bandy said mt Von has been taking for his European constituents of getting the American veto out and the Europeans in However the Germans would be more dangerous if left out of the party He thought it was of importance to the Germans that the be kept alive and plainly on the table He did not any that some way other than might not be developed but it was the beet system yet devised The Secretary reiterated the point that 5 percent could never control the 95 percent Asked for his views Mr - Heath said that he could see no complete or satisfactoryanawer The Germans went a gte aiter voice in nuclear weapons but at the same time they want to retain their alliance with the 3 The Germans have a mythological problem They want to be able to any they have a share in the European nuclear deterrent To Erhard and Schroeder the is a part of the for European integration The Secretary reminded the table that the Germans have profoundly resented more deeply than many realize the idea of the being tripartite meetings with regard to Germany and Berlin before there are quadripertite meetings We have been able to get quedripertite action accepted by the French only recently ECLASSIFIED Authority MNW aw NARA Date SECRET use Mr Bandy said that heedmitted the odds are ageinot the but it is important to keep the lac eject olive and on the table To the Germans MLF is a touchs one Western seriousness Lord Home asserted there were dl icultioo about the nature of the force ships would operate in the trade lanes of merchant vessels The Secretary said that the alternative was menus in Germany in German hands 'I horneycroft raised the question of a much-needed NATO strategic reexamination Mr Bondy commented there was a paradox the Germans alrea y owned missiles but not warheads 'They were probably closer to a nuclear capability now in some ways than they - would be under MLF Lord Home said that things would be much easier for HMG if a request were eo come from NATO for seaborne sori'ace missiles Mr Bondy asked on he meant by surely not all 15 Lord Home dodged the question and said that the request might come out of the alliance following a strategic review Mr Bondy said that the result of any strategic review in strictly military terms would be clear the result walla-be a cell for putting land hesed missiles in France one on the canals Mr Bondy admitted that ships look only when you consider the alternatives Sir Robert Scott then said that he had been laminate the Germans lately and their principal preoccupation is to have a 100 percent 0 8 involvement at the same time they alaowant Europe to have its deterrent The Secretary commence thee it was all right if Europe wants to - organize its on forces but the problem for Europe is either lnterdepoodence a indo ndenco The 0 8 was not like the Hessian mercenaries brought to fight in Eon-ice by Lord Home ancestors $6312 DECLASSIFIED Authority MW NARA Date -7- Thorneycroft then said that France in four years or less will have its own deterrent i e France will have a trigger This means it is wise to get France in new The Secretary said that Mr Thorneycroft had raised a problem so grave that he did not wish to comment on it at length but he would like Mr 'l horneycroit to consider whether the 0 5 would permit Frence'e weapon to trigger U 8 nucleer might Sir Herold Ceceie mode the suggestion that France might participate in the control of th e multinational forces There were some node at - the table but this idea Mat-not developed Lord Home coming back full circle then suggested the possibility of putting to the NATO committee whether NATO wanted seeborne - The Secretary replied firmly that he was skeptic of a NATO review of subject suches this because the outcome will he the consensus oi the voices of governments it could not be otherwise A review of this kind would not get anywhere Lord Home said that the has divisive aspects for exempl e the Norwegians and some of the other countries would like to veto MLF They are happy with one finger on the trigger 1 0 the U 8 finger Mr Bundyseid we agree that the question should be studied but the question should he the role of the Europeans defense We would be willing to see 5 or 6 NATO countries worli on the problem seriously within the NATO framework but certainly not all 15 He was strongly against referring the problem to NATO proper What should he considered by the five or six countries within the NATO framework wee After present forces What The Secretary reminded the table that to a long time the 1 1 3 said that it would be willing to look at European views on this question But at Nassau something happened After Nassau we felt that we had better he more specific re the MLF The fact that the British are now reieing terareeching questions of principle pieces the 0 8 in some We ere embarrassed visas vie the Germans end vie-sevie the Italians We are also emberressed Paris since General de Gaulle an only DEC LASSIFIED Authority NWW v NARA Date 15 12 II SECRET 80 deduce that it lion in his power to stop MLF in its tracks It would be a calamity if after it eppesre that the in retreat rom MLF Thorneycroit said in his view we ehould press on with strategic studies and then consider the weapons system needed to meet the established requirements The Secretary was rather scornful of this ides He said that in this strategic business you can go round and round the barn and meet yourself He was not sure that more strategic studies were required He admitted however that the Berlin problem distorts the requirements oi NATO 'Lord Home suggested that the French might be asked Mr Bundy thought thetthe French should he asked but strongly doubted that they would come in Thomoycroit acid the question is whether MLF would unite or divide NATO Mr Bondy said we are in a bed box it having eeidpublicly we would use our best efforts to work towards MLF we new book any 'Mr Bandy thought that British-French heurum-hee tanks would be highly illumina ng to the UK He did not think the French would give an inch i he Secretary said that the French are sitting on the top of the month waiting for no to climb to them Thorneycroit said that intimate talks with France were required to which Bondy replied that the U S has tried six times to hove special talks and has got nowhere Lord Home having listened to this exchange indicated that he did not agree with Thorneycroft in regard to talking with the French Ambassador Bruce reminded the tobie of the genesis oi the idea and the Secretary commented thut the reel generic was an effort to keep 600 out of Germany TOP SECRET DECLASSIFIED Authmity W m IByw NARA Date I 2 l2 my SECRET The Secretary said that he would like to pot to Lord Home a rude question if an MLF force comes into being will HMG went to participate in it Lord Home reylied rather sadly that HMO he tried herd to sell the idea but it had been unsuccessful The people were not prepared at this time to accept Germans on ships It was ecceptehl'e to give the Germans a share in NATO planning but he did not see how the British Government can plump new for a new weapon system in which there would be physical German participation Mr Heath commented that we were trying to solve a military problem by political means The political difficulty for the UK was created by combination of adverse factors 1 underlying entioGerman sentiment 2 the U S origin of the plan 3 the opinions at all retired military peremel led by Admiral Mountbatten 4 finance The political difficulty for the United seam arose from the following 1 its own greetige was committed 2 Germany was committed 3 Italy was committed or at least the previous government who 4 Frame wanted to see the project fail Same way must be found to reconcile these respective political difficulties The Secretary asked whotherganti-Germen sentiments end coete were the'moet inoportent factors in the British- mind Mr Thomyeroft replied that the opinion 09 retired military personnel wee the'moet important While costs did not gure prominently at preoent this aspect would explode when the problem was 'gone into more deeply Mr Heath suggested that the MLF should not he considered on militerfmerite but in tome of whether there are political means to solve two very diifioult sets of problems Mr Bandy agreed and added the the Bonn conversations wee that they took the time lithit'oif However the Germans must show at that eomething is under consideration that the MLF has not banjos-gotten Consideration of the matter by NATO would smother it to deleth We needed a specie-l working group Lord Home asked to see a written formula for such a group SECRET DECLASSJFIED AuthOIity NARA Date 6 SECRET 10 Mr Thorneycroit asked whethe the West did not have too many missiles already Mr Bandy replied that we could not get into a pesitien where we think we need more but the alliance does not The Secretary again expressed his scepticism of the usefulness of the strategic studies approach Such studies are made on instructions and take into account the declsions the Govermnents want to make Mr Thorneycroft differed remarking that the study on strategy was a dis- embodied one Lord Home asked whether participation in international signals on land would satisfy the Germans The Secretary said that if the MLF falls through the Germans would go back to their demand for MRBM's in Germany offer German-manned vessels for the paragraph 6 force or make an agreement with the French Mr Bundy said all the Germans asked today was ehat the British study the psohlem Lord Home again said that he would like to see a formula for a broad study and for a group to conduct it cc 6 SIS-2 Amembassy Moscow SIP Bonn EUR Paris GER London 11530 Paris MIN - Lewis Jones EUR - Mr Bus-dot This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu