1 Record of Conversation Between M S Gorbachev and F Mitterand in the evening in Latche south of France October 30 1991 F Mitterand Let's talk about Europe If we talk about Europe on our side it is all about the community of 12 states The EU is now at a critical stage in its development This is about the creation of the political institutions of the EU But of course this process will not take place in all areas Ultimately the state remains a state By 1997 the creation of an economic and monetary union of the EU is also anticipated Much also remains to be done in the sphere of diplomacy Decisions on this matter can be implemented at the session of the Council of Europe in December of this year M Gorbachev When you are speaking about diplomacy what do you mean F Mitterand For now this is still an open question There’s something to think about Only one thing is clear if the political union of the 12 had been formed earlier then Europe probably would have been able to intervene more efficiently and faster in order to prevent the civil war in Yugoslavia M S Gorbachev Yes the situation in Yugoslavia is indeed difficult Some people stimulated the centrifugal forces in the beginning declaring that they were allowing the independence of Slovenia and Croatia and the destruction of the integrity of the Yugoslav Federation This immediately emboldened the separatists F Mitterand But separatism existed there before Indeed the Germans immediately came out for the recognition of the independence of Slovenia and Croatia As for me I have spoken out against the independence of these republics since June Most of the other EU member states followed my example Not that I was negative about the very idea of independence I just proceeded from the premise that independence should be proclaimed in compliance with 2 international agreements in particular the provisions of the Helsinki Final Act as well as the Paris Charter for a New Europe In my opinion the other option – a declaration of independence under pressure from nationalist forces – would hardly be welcome Most other states agreed with this point of view However a different position is needed The fact is that Slovenia and Croatia at one time were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire In addition to German influence they were also influenced by the Roman Catholic Church the Vatican It was difficult for Slovenians and Croatians to get along with Serbs people adhering to Orthodoxy and Islam raised more in the spirit of Byzantine rather than Roman traditions During the period of major historical trials Serbia was an ally of France M S Gorbachev And Russia also F Mitterand I once met with J Major and discussed Yugoslavian issues with him He asked me what would happen next I answered him well Croatia will probably turn to the armed forces of Germany Austria Hungary and Turkey for help Serbia in turn will address a similar request to Great Britain Russia and France Our armed forces would therefore be in Yugoslavia and such a situation will arise as at the beginning of the First World War in 1914 Major was clearly surprised He said that he would not send his soldiers anywhere I don't know if he took my statement seriously Maybe a not entirely accurate translation played a role But be that as it may there was a serious element in my statement since we must not recreate the competitive environment as it arose at the beginning of this century This option would have meant significant drama for the whole of Europe Therefore life itself brings the EU countries to the creation of a political union There is no escape from history It is only necessary to jointly discuss all these problems in order to find common approaches I would like to know what kind of relationship there can be between the EU and your country You of course know that the Americans are tempted to expand NATO's functions and change it into more of a political rather than a military alliance I have a different point of view on this matter I think that going forward NATO should continue to remain loyal to the alliance on the basis of which this organization was created It would be very bad if the North Atlantic Alliance was endowed with functions that in principle fall under the jurisdiction of the CSCE or 3 the EU The European-wide process became possible in many respects thanks to the concerted actions of the USSR and France You will of course remember that France was practically the only country that supported your initiatives in the field of European-wide cooperation Our cooperation yielded a good result So let us not allow the elimination of the fruits of our cooperation If we give NATO excessive powers then countries that are not members of NATO will feel out of place The role of the Charter of Paris for a New Europe will also decline We are going to discuss all these questions in Rome on November 8th of this year A roughly similar plan is also being discussed in the economic field What do we do with the states of Eastern and Central Europe apart from the Soviet Union What can be done to ensure that these states begin little by little to offer to help each other within the framework of a common organization How to avoid a situation in which on the one hand there are the applicant states and on the other hand the states on whom it depends whether to provide assistance or to deny it These types of issues should be resolved primarily within the framework of collective international organizations That is how many of the problems Europe is currently facing are arising But after all Europe is also America This situation will persist for a while I agree that the United States will continue to play an important role This is just a recognition of existing realities However in the future Europe should be Europe itself At the same time it is important that the changes in the Soviet Union have encouraged a political and economic rapprochement between the West and the East and the creation of what you call the common European home M S Gorbachev Much here depends on how America positions itself towards a future united Europe just as America sees Japan These are two headaches for Americans especially when it comes to Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals This after all is a huge space with almost 600 million inhabitants with a huge scientific technical economic and intellectual potential It is here that we must find answers to emerging questions Maybe there are answers to the positions of certain countries in connection with changes in the Soviet Union Maybe in this context we could find a response to the amendments that are observed in the European policy of the FRG Federal Republic of Germany I mean what was revealed in the famous Baker-Genscher statement Perhaps this is also where Germany's support for NATO's role which you are talking about comes from i e as a kind of instrument for influencing European affairs In turn such a 4 position apparently provides the Germans with a free hand for action regarding Hungary Austria Czechoslovakia and further to the East F Mitterand You are speaking about a free hand The Germans really have the right to establish relations with any states Nobody will forbid them this But it is also obvious that Germany's influence rests on its financial capabilities M S Gorbachev But there is still a coordinated international policy So this freedom is relative especially if we want to comply with major treaties signed by more than one dozen countries F Mitterand You’re referring to the pan-European process M S Gorbachev Yes This is my view and my estimates for the future are also related to it There are two pillars These are the European communities that are acquiring a system of political institutions It is also the alliance of sovereign states based on the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics There is also cooperation between them within the framework defined by provisions of the documents of the pan-European process and efforts in the area of disarmament The role and presence of the United States and Canada also fit into this concept But this should be a European policy not an American policy towards Europe F MItterand The reality is that the majority of European states do not want to change the very nature of our relationship with the United States On the other hand the republics that used to belong to the USSR are now losing their positions It is important for them to understand that while the European communities are strengthening the unity of the republics of the Union is weakening under the influence of nationalist sentiments Of course it would be important to rely on both of these pillars But one of the pillars has already been created As for the other pillar it is not known what is happening to it If the inhabitants of all these republics more than 300 million were with Gorbachev the issue would be resolved 5 M S Gorbachev I believe that from what you said regarding European affairs it follows that there is a need for a detailed study of these issues on our end and on your end so that in future we can exchange views within the framework of the Soviet-French political dialogue F Mitterand I support this proposal As for Europe sooner or later it will take shape M S Gorbachev Alright as I understand my task I will need to strengthen the second pillar F Mitterand But we also want the same It is no coincidence that in my televised speech I spoke out in favor of a strong united Union fortified by federal ties This would be very important not only for your compatriots but also for the interests of France and Europe as a whole France will never under any circumstances encourage the destruction of the Union Under Stalin such a position was beset with certain problems But even then at the time of de Gaulle and Stalin France and the USSR were allies This is all the more important now when your country is becoming truly democratic I repeat I am confident that Europe will take shape Our entire policy is aimed at facilitating the achievement of this goal as quickly as possible If this does not happen as quickly as we would like then a situation will arise the consequences of which will be felt by Europe for centuries to come I am also confident that Europe will take shape together with you When I put forward the idea of a European confederation I was immediately questioned in France how do you intend to create this together with communist Russia I responded yes together with Russia Moreover it is for Russia to decide for itself what its ultimate fate will be I have to say that this kind of answer of mine caused a negative reaction in some places It is precisely because of this that some Eastern European states previously members of the Warsaw Pact in particular Czechoslovakia have now distanced themselves to some extent from the ideas of the European confederation I recently had a conversation with Havel on this topic I asked him surely you really believe this is very important But how can this be important from the point of view of history After all history will eventually put everything in its place And it would be better if this would happen during my lifetime and not after my death That’s why I need to hurry You know that I am telling the truth – you yourself a few days ago sent me a kind message with 6 congratulations on my 75th birthday Therefore I have really barely enough time to help achieve this goal R M Gorbacheva When Mikhail Sergeyevich talks about the role of the president in history about his possible role I think with sorrow that the matter is not only what this role will be but how to prevent tragedy in our country to prevent perestroika from ending in tragedy for the current generation of people M S Gorbachev There are big and small tragedies The question is when a more serious tragedy could occur I recently spoke with representatives of the business community One of the entrepreneurs was present at this conversation We talked about the crisis about the ways out of it In this the crisis was characterized as the acknowledgement of a series of mistakes And this one entrepreneur asserts that he does not agree with this kind of judgment In his opinion a crisis is a way out of a totalitarian system It is impossible to achieve this goal painlessly Before it can get better the system must go through a state of crisis My interlocutor insisted that he was waging an uncompromising struggle with the head of our government at the time of the advance of the anti-crisis program My interlocutor asked what the anti-crisis program is anyway It is not to leave the old system but rather to preserve it To a large extent I agree with him but there is the problem that Raisa Maksimovna spoke about I foresaw it two or three years ago when the 90th anniversary of the birth of our prominent writer Leonov was celebrated I went to see the writer to congratulate him Leonov – and he despite his 90 years was aware of everything that was happening with us he understood all the nuances – he told me the following ahead of you are major difficulties What you are doing now should change the shape of society for 100-200 years ahead But people after all live their own lives and they want to live better today than they did yesterday You cannot escape from this No one will believe in a happy future People should feel an improvement in their own lives But it is difficult to achieve positive results especially when it is necessary to implement substantial reforms This is what our problems are rooted in And Raisa Maksimovna is absolutely right when she raises this kind of question It is a very difficult situation R M Gorbacheva This is about daily bread 7 F Mitterand I understand this well I however insisted without much success that my partners also become aware of this It was as you remember at the meeting of the seven in London The same conviction also guides me now when I strive to persuade partners regarding more effective assistance to the Soviet Union I understand that if your situation worsens if there are changes in the higher ranks it will not benefit anyone nor will international cooperation stand to gain from this M S Gorbachev We have a common interest with you here F Mitterand In my opinion the European communities have so far taken a restrained position on this issue How do you Mr Morel explain it the mood in the European Commission P Morel Mr President decisions on collective action are available in principle Simply some countries do not operate as actively as France and Germany The British are being careful But good work has still been done within the framework of the G7 M S Gorbachev Major’s position has recently improved When the summit was held in London he was excessively frosty and had taken an extremely rational position F Mitterand After his visit to Moscow Major sent me a letter in which he expressed support for the need for more active support for Soviet reform P Morel Mr President the Europeans are already making some good efforts They are also ready to take other more significant steps The challenge however is how to spread the load more evenly relating to the provision of aid to the Soviet Union So far Europeans are responsible for 80% of the aid and the rest is provided by the Americans and the Japanese We tell our American and Japanese friends that words alone are no longer sufficient and it is already necessary to move on to specific actions 8 M S Gorbachev When meeting with Bush I told him an idea and at the same time a wish If the issues of cooperation are considered and resolved in the normal course of events then perhaps we can continue commerce and the discussion on ownership interests The point however is that in the coming months a lot must be decided in the Soviet Union if not everything This is an extraordinary time that requires an appropriate approach dictated by the circumstances especially since this is not about handouts but about normal loans concentrated over time so that our economy after it gets on the path to recovery could using its great opportunities recover everything above and beyond what we had exchanged So there are great opportunities here for trade and increasing production for all the participants in the process P Morel A very important meeting of the deputy finance ministers of the G7 with representatives of the republics was held recently in Moscow The conversation that took place was very instructive As the French participant in the meeting told me the U S representative was greatly impressed by what was said on the Soviet side and it seems clearly realized the full seriousness of the situation M S Gorbachev We are now at the most crucial stage of reforms Attempts at reform were also made under Stalin Two attempts were made under Khrushchev Under Brezhnev Kosygin's reform appeared But as soon as these attempts affected serious interests they were immediately discredited and destroyed This is understandable because any reform is associated with initiative and initiative in turn implies freedom which in turn touches upon the issue of ownership There is a need to eliminate the foundations of total domination But it is precisely state property that constitutes the basis of the power of the nomenklatura So everything here is ironclad and fatally linked R M Gorbacheva And the nomenklatura bites F Mitterand Bites R M Gorbacheva Didn’t Foros give evidence of this Moreover it is particularly bitter when the people closest to them are seemingly involved in this 9 M S Gorbachev We must push our reforms forward F Mitterand The putsch made it much more difficult to implement the course you had started and at the same time it unblocked a lot M S Gorbachev We indeed had a chance but were unable to take advantage of it It almost ruined the signing of the union treaty It was on the basis of this treaty that the division of powers and the organization of a new government including the executive was supposed to be implemented But without power and especially the executive nothing is possible Therefore we never took advantage of this chance R M Gorbacheva All the more so since scum and all sorts of debris have come up to the surface due to the democratization processes F Mitterand We also have certain problems in this country The French are forever complaining about everything but overall their situation is not bad Of the 58 million French people 3-4 million actually live in difficult conditions but in general France is among the most developed countries I hope that our meeting will be useful Tomorrow we will continue our talks following which we will hold a press conference Source Archive of the Gorbachev Foundation donated by Andrey S Grachev Translated by Sarah Dunn for the National Security Archive