1 Record of Main Content of Conversation between M S Gorbachev and F Castro Havana Cuba April 3 1989 State Council of the Republic of Cuba Participants from the Soviet side E A Shevardnadze A N Yakovlev V M Kamentsev Yu V Petrov From the Cuban side R Castro C R Rodriguez J Risquet O Cienfuegos I Malmierca J Camacho C Aldano M S GORBACHEV I would like to express heartfelt thanks for the warm public welcome It turned into an expression of big feelings This is a characteristic feature of our relationship which is based on fundamental values Of course our relations also contain material cultural and scientific aspects and that is also an important sphere But the basis of our relations is the commitment to the choice of the Cuban and the October revolutions This is what has united the Soviet and the Cuban peoples for many decades We can be proud of it but it is not enough to be proud we need to develop and deepen our relations I see this visit from this perspective We have approached it with the understanding that our relations even as solid as they are need to be taken care of like a tree—so that the roots grow deeper and the branches grow fuller Today the world is on the move it is searching for ways to the future At such a turning point this visit allows us to demonstrate the high level of our relations This relationship is of great value It is has a unique character The world needs an example like this A huge country and a small one if we speak about quantitative parameters located on different continents with different histories succeeded in developing a type of interaction which is based on respect independence sovereignty openness and trust This is why this visit is important not only for you and us but for the entire world Your northern neighbor is watching intently what will transpire here Latin Americans do too and there is great interest in Europe in Africa and Asia In other words it is an event of global significance 2 My first trip to Latin America is to Cuba By this we are consciously stressing Cuba’s role on the Latin American continent where important and deep processes are currently unfolding This visit gives us an opportunity to engage in a comprehensive exchange of opinions on pressing issues of the development of world socialism Socialism exists in the context of global issues Everything that happens in the world in some form affects the processes unfolding in socialist countries We are faced with the task of adapting socialism to the current realities of opening fully the potential of our social order so that it reflects the imperatives of the time adequately Here we need a breakthrough of thinking in theory and practice on the basis of fundamental values The current stage as never before has highlighted the fact that there is no universal model which would allow us to solve all problems There is the experience of Cuba Eastern Europe China and the Soviet Union Along with a common direction with a common ultimate goal each country has its own dynamic traditions and starting point This meeting allows us to conduct a friendly conversation about Soviet Cuban relations Time puts its demands on us but the main feature remains the same—old friendship as they say never rusts This is the point of view of our leadership Once again I would like to express our common appreciation that we will be together during these days and will have a chance to have brotherly and deep conversations F CASTRO I am very grateful to comrade Gorbachev for these words In essence this is not the first visit In December we already experienced the feeling of enthusiasm related to it even though the visit did not take place then We understand the reason well—even a much smaller tragedy would be sufficient for cde Gorbachev to realize the need to go back We invited people to come to the welcoming ceremony but what is important is the enthusiasm with which people came the feelings that they 3 expressed I watched the people attentively the expressions on their faces One can organize a meeting but you cannot organize joy enthusiasm We could hear the symphony of voices I myself could barely contain my emotions fired up by the mood of the people In it you could see the close ties between the Cuban and the Soviet people the gratitude of the Cuban people toward the Soviet people It was also an expression of respect and admiration for cde M S Gorbachev which are very prominent in our country All this came together in an outstanding event M S GORBACHEV I think I benefitted greatly from the appreciation that Fidel enjoys among his people They were happy to see us together F CASTRO We received information from Moscow that people there are also very happy that this visit is taking place This is natural I am happy that the Soviet people from such a great distance will be able to take part in these events I share the statements that you made just now Our agenda is open we will discuss international issues as well as our relations The negotiations will proceed in a spirit of total trust as always when we met and talked The only difference is that today we have the privilege to receive you here And you have an opportunity to see some of the achievements of our revolution We will probably dash the hopes of the American press who have gathered here They are waiting to see the expressions of contradictions and differences between Cuba and the Soviet Union M S GORBACHEV And they are worried lest we disappoint them The Americans are thinking too I cannot say that they made much progress in those considerations but something is happening We will talk about it further here Bush sent me a letter on the eve of my departure I have it with me I will show it to you later We have to do everything to not miss the chance the opportunities that have opened Things that you and I started to do in recent years are already creating great problems for them The reactionary circles are very worried by the increasing 4 influence of socialist countries’ initiatives and the new methods of approaching the resolution of problems The military-industrial complex especially does not like it They do not like our perestroika and they are now launching a campaign to discredit it and attack Gorbachev personally Radio voices are often trying to infiltrate people’s minds with the idea that perestroika is stalling that it is doomed that socialism can only exist as a dictatorship or chaos is unavoidable This is being broadcast in all languages to our people we stopped jamming them now they hear everything The last elections became for us like a tuning fork a trial run from the point of view of domestic processes—economic and political reform changes in the ethical sphere Almost 90% of the electorate participated in the elections and among the elected 85% are communists It was a big and very important campaign in terms of testing the attitude of the population to our policy In essence these elections drew a line under the last 4 years … In the United States they are seriously worried about changing attitudes toward the Soviet Union James Baker according to reliable information came back from Europe in a panic there they no longer see the USSR as an enemy and do not expect it to move on Europe with tanks Europe is leaving the United States and going “into the arms of the Russian bear ” After this as we know Bush had a number of meeting with Sovietologists They are trying to tentatively come up with a different course but so far it looks like they are not succeeding We meanwhile get more and more convinced of the correctness and effectiveness of our new political thinking Naturally this is a big turn it requires philosophical grounding and it is important not to make mistakes here F CASTRO It appears that the new U S administration is acting very cautiously It is interesting why are they so sluggish in foreign policy including the détente with the Soviet Union What are the factors at play here M S GORBACHEV I am leaning toward the explanation that primarily we are seeing the influence of the military-industrial complex Recently they conducted 5 studies and came to a conclusion that transferring the military sector into civilian hands would be accompanied by the growth of unemployment and subsequently by social tensions Besides they don’t know how to employ the huge sector of military-scientific research And finally the most important factor the new situation in which the enemy image disappears will work to the benefit of socialism and of progressive regimes For them it would be like giving up their positions Therefore you are right when you say that this is a very cautious administration Shevardnadze adds and I agree with him that it is also an indecisive one And their indecisiveness stems from the fear of continuing what has recently started to come together in Soviet-American relations and in world politics It is now more difficult for them to give orders to the Europeans more difficult to work with Congress they are losing their ability to interfere in the affairs of other countries Of course we should not entertain any illusions any romanticism we must stand on the basis of facts However the realities show that we are expressing our pressing needs better We have an opinion that we have a chance to grab the historic initiative solidly and for a long time F CASTRO At some point I had an impression that they were counting on difficulties in the Soviet Union—economic and even political ones M S GORBACHEV I would just add that transferring the military complex to civilian tasks would be accompanied by a growth in the production of consumer goods and the Western market is already oversaturated They were expecting that the Soviet Union would open its markets but we are not doing it for several reasons And more Further disarmament would give the Soviet Union an opportunity to free resources to put them in the service of the interests of the people to open up the potential of socialism This is where they get the temptation to slow down the disarmament process to preserve SDI so that the Soviet Union will stay entangled in the arms race Today Fidel we are spending 15-18% of our budget on defense That does not happen in any developed country The Americans would want our national income to go as it did in the past mainly toward military goals and as a 6 result we would have social tension and political instability and socialism would be discredited They persistently propose to us take credits and use them to buy consumer goods But we use credits to buy equipment for light industries for other sectors that produce consumer goods We create our own base We want to turn the discontent of the population with the situation in the internal market into an understanding by the people of the necessity to reform the economy and not to wait for manna from heaven F CASTRO Many thought about the Bush administration with hope and believed that he would be a less ideological more pragmatic president Moreover during the electoral campaign he spoke as a person who supported Reagan’s foreign policy and was going to work in favor of disarmament and reducing tensions I think the word “indecisiveness” describes the situation quite well As far as our country is concerned he has a more definite policy Just on the eve of your visit information was leaked that the State Department sent instructions to all its embassies that policy toward Cuba will not change that the harsh policy will continue In the past they said that if our troops were withdrawn from Africa relations would improve … I think they are still making mistaken calculations about Cuba We have not spoken on this issue yet because we want to give diplomacy a chance But we will not tolerate this We do not have an alternative This kind of act is so offensive so humiliating for us that it is intolerable Therefore hopes that the Bush administration would be more pragmatic and less ideological have not been realized yet Maybe they are doing it to please the right-wing circles play a game—“a little bit this way a little bit that way ” But this is a dangerous way We are acting attentively and carefully toward the Bush administration Not a single bad word has been said about them 7 M S GORBACHEV In my view the United States is still unable get to realistic positions vis-à-vis Cuba because their foreign policy which they have been conducting for decades is now sputtering They are worried about Western Europe the Middle East and China There is a reason Bush went there before my visit They are saying that everything is normal that they do not see a problem in the improvement of Soviet-Chinese relations but in reality it worries them very much India is getting out of hand And finally the Latin American continent Where is it going to go in what direction Your behavior looks responsible to me without rhetoric or emotions This is a strong position Many times I myself wanted to say something because Baker and other representatives of the administration make statements which deserve to be responded to But we decided to react in the press for starters Recently Bush passed on his appreciation for our understanding and patience because they apparently are using this time to think through what to do next But it seems to me it is hard for him to make the choice whether to continue the old policy that no longer brings any dividends or to choose a new policy the first signs of which emerged at the last stage of the Reagan administration We will not say whether it was Reagan’s achievement or they simply failed to calculate whether they would win or lose In any case our firm but responsible and flexible policy will keep pushing them in a more realistic direction F CASTRO One has to have in mind that at the end of the Reagan administration there was a situation which subjectively helped him form a smarter and more realistic position Reagan’s prestige fell significantly when he turned out to be involved in Irangate It reminded one of a situation where Nixon found himself in his time Only in foreign policy was Reagan able to find some space to win some sympathies again Indeed the most brilliant page in his administration opened when he chose the path of peace of negotiations with the USSR He would never have been able to achieve such popularity and respect in the international arena had he not signed the treaty with the Soviet Union 8 M S GORBACHEV The current administration consults intensively with Kissinger and with people like him who are connected with certain stages of the Cod War What Kissinger was telling me is already present in his practical policy Shevardnadze felt the same when he was meeting with Baker This administration is especially dangerous in my view because it tends to fall under influences One can consider it a normal process when a political leader considers different alternatives in foreign and domestic policy and chooses among them However when this quality—the skill of making choices—is lacking then vacillations occur And because we are talking about the U S administration it is very serious F CASTRO About Latin America here we see more and more the drive to independence there is no unity however there is an aspiration toward unity There are several factors behind it The first chronologically is the Malvinas Falklands war The United States united with Great Britain having forgotten all their agreements pacts and even the Monroe Doctrine The Latin Americans naturally were on the Argentine side even though it was ruled by a repressive government The second factor and ultimately the most important one is the existence of a huge external debt and economic crisis which all the countries of Latin America are experiencing because of the unequal exchange rate What is happening is a shameless pumping of pure capital out of Latin America It is tens of billions of dollars annually Cuba raised the banner of struggle against it as early as 1985 We essentially have laid down the course Before that nobody dared to say that it was impossible either to pay out the debt or to recall it This drew a lot of attention among the countries of Latin America and it played an important role in the cause to unite them But the United States does not want to discuss debt issues with all the countries together they prefer to deal with each country individually M S GORBACHEV In our meetings with the Americans as soon as we would touch on this subject we said that we should internationalize the discussion of this problem and in response we got a deafening silence 9 F CASTRO Our economic and social situation is most difficult The Americans behave like egoists Five years ago they imported 5 million tons of sugar annually but then they started to subsidize their own producers and gradually eliminated the quotas for the traditional exporters from Latin America Now they have reduced imports down to 1 million tons This naturally has led to falling prices They undertook many similar protectionist measures which helps raise consciousness in Latin America The U S A put great pressure on Latin America so that they would vote against Cuba at the Human Rights Commission in Geneva First it was done by Reagan now by Bush He called each of the Latin American presidents They lost that diplomatic battle but one should not underestimate their influence My trips to Mexico Ecuador and Venezuela tell you something about the situation in Latin America Before nobody was inviting me now they have I had to take the risk and went I had very good contacts with people I was wonderfully received Venezuela was the most impressive Sixty thousand Cubans live there rich people bourgeoisie by the way and they have great influence over the press There has been constant American propaganda against Cuba for 30 years a dirty campaign was unleashed right before the trip including calls for assassination But I was hoping that 30 years of our struggle did not go to waste and that they could not deceive the people And what happened is that all that propaganda evaporated instantly Crowds followed us everywhere I could not stick my head out of the hotel all our meetings were on live television The Yankees were very concerned After my visit to Mexico where Raul Alfonsin was visiting he visited the United States and had a conversation with Bush The latter asked him a question why do they applaud Castro more than others And suggested an answer himself it must be because of the “David and Goliath” complex Alfonsin said that it was not only that but that Fidel was saying many correct things having in mind the Latin American economic problems The Americans see the phenomenon of improving relations between us and Latin America It is taking Cuba into its fold The sympathies of Latin Americans toward Cuba are growing and this is more important now than the period after the revolution Because then everything was still undefined this is now not a Castro 10 who just came down from the peaks of Sierra Maestro but a leader of a socialist country a leader of a Marxist-Leninist party Other factors play a role too For example the behavior of the church which speaks for human rights in many countries of the continent The smartest thing for the United States to do would be not to aggravate relations with Cuba By conducting a hostile policy toward Cuba they will not earn much sympathy in Latin America M S GORBACHEV This observation reminds me somewhat of what is going on around the Soviet Union In recent months I received no fewer than a dozen political scientists very big and influential who advise the administration today They say that Bush is hesitating He sees that in America after all the overwhelming majority of people are in favor of further normalizing Soviet American relations but his soul is probably closer to the military-industrial complex He is simply afraid of it In this sense Reagan was more decisive and confident because he belonged to the farther right wing But this one he is afraid he flirts with the right wing because he does not want to lose their trust But the hostile attitude of the right wing towards the Soviet Union and Cuba does not reflect the changes going on in American society Your observations about the Latin American continent are very interesting Let’s take the last visit by the Brazilian president Jose Sarney He brought with him representatives of all political stripes including communists famous writers artists architects representatives of business circles i e the whole team that reflects the entire spectrum of national opinions And you know what his main thought was Let us cooperate help Brazil get out of America’s embrace F CASTRO Sarney now is a firm proponent of expanding relations with Cuba He starts from the assumption that further development of Cuban-Brazilian ties would have great importance for improving the situation in Latin America 11 M S GORBACHEV Reads a passage from a message received from Sarney which says that the Brazilians want to develop economic ties with Cuba and to establish a relationship of “political partners ” F CASTRO The third serious problem for Latin America is the narcobusiness The Americans want to solve it by way of herbicides but this is an economic problem The United States created a hundred billion dollar market for this and crime is growing Latin America essentially has an entire narcotics production industry—in Peru Columbia This is in some way like a cancer Latin Americans are no longer just producers they are starting to use the drugs too The Americans behave in Latin America in absurd illogical ways sometimes it is impossible to understand what they want It helps to create a new atmosphere here I think your visit here could be considered a visit not only to Cuba but to Latin America at large It is very important in the situation we find ourselves in Source Archive of the Gorbachev Foundation Fond 1 opis 1 Translated by Svetlana Savranskaya and Sarah Dunn for the National Security Archive