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sm C chown f #4 ® TC 48 aet Of TRANSCRIPT OR‘ PROCEEDINGS f % $22 ue secammeps amer hi h pegs E ‘ pepantment or state aged Washington D C #20 % 10 t BECRED mics O74 Rcprn lurl'tl 11 tht• Nntional Archive Secre of State ss r Chairman D Mr Ingersoll p Mr s co E Mr Robinson T Ivlr Maw M Mr Eagleburger AF Mr Mulcahy Acting ARA Mr Rogers EA Mr Habib EUR Mr Armitage NEA Mr Atherton INR Mr Saunders S P Mr Lord EB Mr Katz Acting S PRS Mr Funseth PM Mr Vest IO Mr Lewis H Ambassador McCloskey L Mr Leigh S S Mr Springsteen s Mr Barbian G D S G D S DECLASSIFIED H cprodun•tl at till' 01ationa1 Archiv S 2 P R 0 C E D I N G S 's Staff Meeting was convened at 8 12a m Secre of State ssinger presiding as irman MR INGERSOLL Good morning Henry Discussion off the record MR INGERSOLL The boycott could have serious implications We'll have a paper to you on that and we can't find out anything about it SECRETARY KISSINGER What is this The Justice Department MR INGERSOLL Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER is investigating the bi oil companies for their conduct during the boycott the one time they behaved in a patriotic fashion MR INGERSOLL Well in may not be limited in that period but it starts there SECRETARY KISSINGER One time they kept everybody going by putting oil into one big pool and that's antitrust MR LEIGH Well they won't tell us very much about it Mr Secretary That's why we need your help on it before the grand jury is convened Now this DECLASSIFIED I eprodurt•d lf tht' ational Archiv •s 3 is not just a c l inves Once that's done we wouldn't be able to say anything MR INGERSOLL That's why we think we have to move on it and they say it's very confiden al They just told us about it They won't tell us anything about tne details if that's 'consultation laughter I will have it to you today One other point I'd like to make is this may be my last Staff Meeting Henry and I'll be thinking of all of you on the slopes of Aspen maybe next week I aughter 1''lR IVIAW The slippery slope MR INGERSOLL Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER Bob we're going to have a cocktail party for you where I suppose most of these people are going to bei but I need not tell you how much you will be missed MR INGERSOLL Thank you I'll miss all of you SECRETARY KISSINGER I want to tell you that with dignity and calm you performed this job and even diplomats will not say this of me when I leave Keep your laughing within limits Laughter MR EAGLEBURGER He's not a diplomat pointing DECLASSIFIED Heprmlured al tilt∙ 1 alional rchin s 4 to Mr Leigh MR SISCO I haven't anything MR ROBINSON I just came back from New York Association I want to report that they announced your forthcoming speech before that group on the Law of the Sea and everyone became very excited Two women fainted in the front row laughter and it was very shattering My inferiority complex was with me just before I was to speak But I just want you to know that they're very excited about your coming up SECRETARY KISSINGER Why only two Laughter MR INGERSOLL That's all there were Laughter MR ROBINSON They're very pleased and I just wanted to tell you how excited they were about your forthcoming speech SECRETARY KISSINGER Are we getting a draft If that boy drafts as well as he talks it's going to be the greatest speech since the Gettysburg Address MR EAGLEBURGER It will be longer Laughter SECRETARY KISSINGER We can put in some of the details depending on the discussions with Treasury but I had the sense yesterday that we were going to get DECLASSIFIED 'produrl'd HI 1hl' Nation 1l Archives DEC LASS I Authoritvt 11 ' 'I 5 most of our proposals MR LORD I think we can get certa ly enough with that speech SECRE'I'ARY KISSINGER 0 K MR MULCAHY Now this day the suspense of the talks in Lusaka that we attached quite a bit of importance to broke up without a statement SECRETARY KISSINGER The talks where MR MULCAHY This was the Four Power talks Presidents Machel Khama Nyerere and Kaunda meeting in Lusaka on where they could go from here with the I odesian situation They had both Rhodesian nationalist factions there and Nkomo apparently according to the press No reconciliation took place ' between Nkomo and Nyerere which was one of the purposes of the thing Also it broke up without any sort of communique which is not a good sign and SECRETARY KISSINGER VJhy MR MULCAHY Well SECRETARY KISSINGER It means MR MULCAHY 'Jell it means that Nkomo and Kaunda who are generally reliable as far as the 6 ne t concerned r s SI iCRETARY KISSINGER But it also means t the 1 uade there 't be ne ia MIL MULCAHY Yes that's right If you're an st take that view SECRETARY KISSINGER If you're a realist - I mean what else can it mean It means they could MR MULCAHY Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER But what's more likely to MR MULCAHY Well I think if SECRE'rARY KISSINGER Where is the Assistant Secretary incidentally MR MULCAHY He's on his way back from Paris He went to the reinforced NAC in Brussels and he'll be back this afternoon SECRETARY KISSINGER Go ahead MR MULCAHY But what probably will happen is that this now will increase the pressure on Smith that SECRETARY KISSINGER Only in your mind Since £CLASSIFIED Authority ' t ' H t•produn∙tl at thl' National Archin• he broke off the talks why should it increase the sure on him MR MULCAHY Well because they all now agree that the guerrilla warfare will continue and be stepped up that a SECRETARY KISSINGER ady I thought they all said MR MULCAHY They have but there's relatively little of it But I think now with the rainy season we'll see a great deal of infiltration across the border One of the proposals under consideration was 7 to put a lway system through Botswana to South Africa The principal rail line will also cause UN sanctions It's a knotty problem because the rail line is the property of the Rhodesian Government We think that this was one of the issues under consideration SECRETARY KISSINGER Can I get a paper by the middle of next week of how we're going to get from here to there I mean what AF visualizes is going to happen now and what we can do now other than handwringing MR MULCAHY Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER And exactly what steps f •pnHimTd II thl' iH1iunal Archive 8 should be taken hopefully that are within the realm of realism by Wednes HR MULCAHY Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER Phil We've opened a new chapter of diplomacy as far as I can see We now have on the front page of the Post a note we haven't even sent yet MR HABIB That story was basically two days old It came SECRETARY KISSINGER Has that note been sent MR HABIB Yesterday SECRETARY KISSINGER I thought I told you Larry that I disapproved it MR HABIB It went to you It went out last night I was told I got a phone call at 5 306 00 o'clock telling me it's gone because I've got the comeback copy this morning SECRETARY KISSINGER Well at 5 306 00 I sure as hell wasn't approving anything MR HABIB We did it 1n accordance with your changes MR BARBIAN That's right Two cables ---r r Ci xs-sl - Eo1 i iithoritvt lt IQ I r - Hcprmlun•d al Ott' Naliowrl ArchiH s MR HABIB One didn't go SECRETARY KISSINGER There may have been two cables but I didn't see them May I see them now Mr Barbian hands Secretary a document to peruse MR HABIB The last paragraph SECRETARY KISSINGER O K Go ahead MR HABIB 'rhe other thing is that you have approval of the first stage of the Thai withdrawal actions SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes but I want to have a significant cut also in the military advisers MR HABIB Yes The ceiling lS 270 We're down around 200 now We're supposed to go below that before the end of the 9 SECRETARY KISSINGER I want the Thais to see a withdrawal The Thais don't know what our ceiling is Therefore if we just keep it MR HABIB No They set the ceiling The ceiling of 270 is a ceiling which SECRETARY KISSINGER Have we pulled out 70 l •produn∙d al tlw 'ational Archlvts 10 or have we simply not replaced 70 MH HABIB Well the 70 are not there SECRE'rARY KISSINGER •rhey have never been there MR HABIB No They have been temporarily withdrawn and there was some thought of pulling it down lower SECRETARY KISSINGER I would like the Thais to see that after their decision there is some reduction in the part they want s to have stay MR HABIB I understand SECRETARY KISSINGER and we can keep the ceiling and put in more people later on if they ask for it MR HABIB Well what we want to do is keep the ceiling so that later on if we need to it would be intelligence people not MAG people and vary it with the MAG SECRETARY KISSINGER That's fine MR HABIB That's what we had in mind Also we have to now take very tough decisions on such things as pulling out the ammunition we have stored in place That's going to really show the Thais what this is costing because we've got about 60 million Reprmlun'tl 11 he ' 1tional Archin SECRET 11 dollars worth of ammuni on which under present law we cannot leave there And we can either sell it to them or take it out They're not going to buy it they're going to want us to leave it there and give it to them which would not be possible That's going to hurt So there's going to be a series of actions which I hope very frankly I'd rather not take on some of them until the election is out of the way until the election is out of the way which is eight more days nine more days If we get the election out of the way we may have a new government we may not have a new government We'll see what happens so we'll try to keep you informed SECRETARY KISSINGER I forgot Is the Vice President stopping there or not MR HABIB No sir because of the election The other thing is that the Koreans have now indicted 18 people from the last official statement and they've indicted them under a less severe act than they might have put them under Now whether that's the k of reaction taken in response to the kind of protest I don't know SECRET DECLASSIFIED Ht'JHtHlurl'd al tltt' ' atiunal Archive At the same the've reindicted a rather well known international official who under a law would permit them to sentence him to death This is a guy who's already sentenced to life imprisonment under a previous commitment SECRETARY KISSINGER Where lS he Is he in prison MR HABIB He's in prison under a life sentence and they've just reindicted him under another law which permits them to sentence him to death SECRETARY KISSINGER They don't take any chances do they Laughter MR HABIB They don't take any chances The guy is very sick besides He won't make it for very long Laughter But the rumble is up on the Hill They tell me they have actuallywritten letters themselves They have written letters to Parker to see what he can do about the situation 12 I have to appear before the Humphrey Subcommittee on Korea at 4 00 and I'm sure they're going to give me a very bad time position But I think we can hold to the Heprodun∙d at the ational Archive 13 MR MA v I got a pretty bad time on it be the House Inte onal Relations Committee on Monday and you're going to get it today SECRETARY KISSINGER I'm glad you let them schedule me so nicely before these Committees Laughter Go ahead MR ARMITAGE Art Hartman had to go to the doctor this morning He'll be here the middle of the morning Mr Secretary We've got a couple of helpful developments j on protection of Sovi personnel in Moscow There was a bomb threat yesterday Part of the Embassy was evacuated but no bomb was found SECRETARY KISSINGER But that was already in the papers yesterday or was that another one MR ARMI'rAGE No That was the same SECRETARY KISSINGER There are no statements to be made on the Soviet Union that I do not personally clear We cannot harass the Soviets every single bloody day with some other tough talk out of this building and we mishandled the three Missions business There's no need for us to shoot at them the day it happened We could have said yesterday We are studying it that DECLASSIFIED Authoritv f 1 I Hcprodun•d at the ntional Archivl'S 14 we are asking for a full report MR FUNSETH That guidance that I used in going out to Moscow is press guidance two days before SECRETARY KISSINGER I didn't approve it ther That's how the other disaster happened That went out as press guidance immediately MR ARMITAGE We now have one in New York Mr Secretary The New York Police Department dis mantled the bomb stored out of Amtorg yesterday thereby SECRETARY KISSINGER Are we going to protest to the Soviets and say they did it MR ARMITAGE No sir The search had been made earlier after the telephone warning found nothing SECRETARY KISSINGER The press guidance to Moscow must be cleared now here There's not to be another one that I don't see MR FUNSETH All right sir MR ARMITAGE The bomb was actually found by Soviet personnel disarmed by the police And it's just possible that if the police would have been a little more vigilant they could have been caught by this time because they didn't leave anybody around after the search were for the MR LEWIS There•s another to New York t from ano and FBI t 't the s the more JDL what was z t of re SECRETARY KISSINGER we are so can we a statement MR FUNSETH Yes Heprudun d nl th ntional Archin s 16 SECRETARY KISSINGER and calling on the New York Police and others to assist MR SISCO I'll see what we can do with that MR INGERSOLL I called the Mayor and the Mayor said the Commissioner was going to call me back They were going to get some Federal indictments I don't think they have done anything yet have they MR ARMITAGE No Shooting into the Riverdale and the bomb around Aeroflot But they say they haven't been able to turn up any leads yet MR INGERSOLL But some of these harassments that take place the New York Police arrest them and let them go MR L E WI S For example on carrying signs they insist they have no legal right to arrest people for carrying nasty signs And the FBI claims it's doing everything it can and we've been at them at high levels But this kidnapping is really scary They really have a capacity for doing it MR ARMITAGE We've gotten all our advisers and we haven't been able to find anything SECRETARY KISSINGER You can't prosecute somebody Reprudun_∙d 0111hc Nationnl Archin' 17 who publicly says somebody else is going to kidnap somebody MR ARMITAGE Apparently not if they attribute it to somebody else and they make a statement that makes it clear they will do it They usually couch it in that way SECRETARY KISSINGER And giving publicity to such a threat does not MR LEIGH I doubt that that could possibly be considered part of the conspiracy to kidnap or a threat to kidnap SECRETARY KISSINGER Well the Soviets are bound to do something and it's just indecent of us to wax so indignant when they for weeks have been harassed in the most unforgivable way and then for us to be so selfrighteously indignant yesterday That's really distressing On this issue they're right There's a limit to the domestic politics we can play You know damn well that our people in Moscow that's one thing they don't do harass them gratuitously But what are we going to do Can we make a statement today condemning these 18 MR FUNSETH Yes sir MR EAGLEBURGER I better see if we can get some more people back We've had 80 SY agents We just haven't got any more that's the real problem SECRETARY KISSINGER Are any of them near the Missions MR EAGLEBURGER Yes We've had them near the Soviets SECRE'I'ARY KISSINGER Well could somebody give the Soviets a surrunary or has somebody done that of what we're doing for them MR ARMITAGE Oh yes sir yes sir repeatedly And we've also issued very strong deploring statements before when these things have happened in New York MR FUNSETH Our guidance said that yesterday SECRETARY KISSINGER I do not want Bureaus to run their own antidetente campaign and everyone trying to prove how tough they are And one day we're going to have a major crisis and everyone will run for the fox holes MR LEWIS There were some demonstrations by the JDL against Ambassador Malik when he was in the DECLASSIFIED Authority'f J 'J 19 hospital The police fortunately provided very good protection and there was no se ous dif culty or idents And apparently Malik was tty well s s ed at least on that occasion th the kind of response he got SECRETARY KISSINGER O K Are you finished Addresses Mr Armitage MR ARMITAGE Yes s SECRETARY KISSINGER Bill MR ROGERS The chief negotiator in Panama has resigned It looks as though for personal reasons he's going to be succeeded in all probability by Guerra who's a former Foreign Minister SECRETARY KISSINGER I don't think is such a great loss is he MR ROGERS No sir It wouldn't seem that way even in Panama In Argentina although the junta has had some pretty good success we're trying to make whatever estimates we can about what's going to happen We've asked both the Mission and Washington to do their own visualizations to compare them But I think the preliminary estimate has got to be that it's going to go 20 downhill s junta lS tes ng the basic proposition that Argentina is not governable so 're going to succeed where everybody else has failed I think that's a distinctly oddson choice I think we're going to look for a considerable effort to involve the United States particularly in the financial field I think we're going to see a good deal SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes but that's in our interest MR ROGERS If there's a chance of it succeeding and if they're not asking us to put too much up on the table What we're going to try to do when and if they come up with such a plan is what we were prepared to do about six months ago We had worked out as intermediaries a sensible program for inter national assistance using the private banks and monetary institutions Whether we can pull that off again I don't know but I think we're going to hear from them very early on in terms of financial programs I think also we've got to expect a fair amount of repression probably a good deal of blood in Argentina 21 before too long I think they're going to have to come down hard not only on the terrorists but on the dissidents of trade unions and their parties SECRETARY KISSINGER But MR ROGERS The point I'm making is that although they have good press today the basic line of all the interference was they had to do it because she couldn't run the country So I think the point is that we ought not at this moment to rush out and embrace this new regime that threesix months later will be considerably less popular with the press SECRETARY KISSINGER But we shouldn't do the opposite either MR ROGERS Oh no obviously not MR McCLOSKEY What do we say about recognition MR ROGERS Well we're going to recognize th morning a formal note in response to their request for recognition as have virtually all the other countries of Latin America But beyond that Hill will ke p his mouth shut SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes but what does that mean concretely Whatever chance they have they will need 22 a li encouragement from us What is he telling them MR ROGERS What Oh nothing He has not been talking with them yet He has not been invited to talk with them He's ready to go in and talk with them when and if they request a meeting But the Generals who are now presently occupying the Ministerial posts are there very temporarily probably for the week until the junta can make its final decisions as to whom they're going to appoint They will make decisions on who they will appoint within a week We think we know who's the Foreign Minister which is the key appointment SECRETARY KISSINGER Who t A MR ROGERS Probably a fellow named 1u who we have worked with in the past And if he is appointed then I think we're in a position to work with him SECRETARY KISSINGER But can I see some instructions on what you're going to tell Hill if somebody should come in MR ROGERS Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER because I do want to encourage them I don't want to give the sense that ∙ ---- b-Eci -S · - s' ∙ll∙∙ ∙∙E D ∙∙∙∙∙ Authority _1 l jJ_CJJ_Cf_f 0 • B f JL ak _3 _t£ fz • LEWISi two York Most of Russians 't Most the some so So it's a Do Mr want us to a be use or not SECRETARY KISSINGER I 't see we can a MR LEWIS 2 cans s as to ther are to 24 be out tomorrow That is now publicly known everywhere If a debate takes place it will focus on the South African presence in Namibia rather than Angola On the other hand the Cubans are the only foreign troops now in Angola so the Chinese are going to hit the Russians very hard in the debate next week and we can also do the same so there are some arguments either way SECRETARY KISSINGER Well I would generally think we're better off with no debate We've made our point on Angola several times MR LEWIS Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER But I wouldn't spill blood over it If there is we should hit foreign intervention in Angola and ask for the withdrawal of Cuban troops MR LEWIS All right 'rhat' s all SECRETARY KISSINGER Hal HR SAUNDERS Since Lebanon was mentioned I want to men∙tion another issue on which you may be approached in the next few weeks from the academic community and this is the Russian Research Center at DECLASSIFIED Authority J 25 Harvard As you know they've been coming on increasingly difficult times financially to the point where Harvard looks like it's meeting about onefifth of its planned budget next year SECRETARY KISSINGER Are they financed mostly by the Government MR SAUNDERS They were to receive Defense money ivhen that receded as you remember last year we put some project money in rather than programtype money And the approach that will be made to us this year is for the State Department to seek from Congress the authority to provide basic grant money to perhaps as many as 30 of these centers around the country some of which a re in danger of closing their doors SECRETARY KISSINGER And how much would we need It's a lot of money MR SAUNDERS Four and a half million dollars SECRETARY KISSINGER Million MR SAUNDERS Million yes of course SECRETARY KISSINGER For 30 institutions MR SAUNDERS You would figure just hypothetically to two hundred thousand that would be maximum Nobody -·-l i c t - -Assli - Eo-1 Authority t ' '' 26 has costed this out yet and I'm giving you an outside figure It could be less SECRETARY KISSINGER But what do they do with $200 000 MR SAUNDERS At the Harvard Center the budget is $150 000 for next year so we're really talking per center about relatively small amounts of money They have a research contract with the center for sixty thousand this year SECRETARY KISSINGER Studying what MR SAUNDERS Dynamics of Soviet SECRETARY KISSINGER And who's doing it I'm not sure It's not many governments who finance studies that demonstrate their incompetence Laughter What do you think you're going to get out of a Harvard study on the Soviet Union MR SAUNDERS It needs some more basic dynamics of decisionmaking processes SECRETARY KISSINGER In the Soviet Union MR SAUNDERS Right SECRETARY KISSINGER On this one I'm basically sympathetic though I have no illusions about what's going 27 to come out of it MR SAUNDERS No I think we're all in the same boat The question is really whether the Government should support this kind of institution in the country And there are two ways of going about it one the National Defense Con®unications Act where HEW concentrates mainly on broad citizen education and tends not to concentrate on the specialized centers And the ' alternative would be for the Department to concentrate l on the specialized centers We'll send you a memo on this outlining the pros and cons There are a lot of other people to be worked into the process but we've heard that some people are going to approach you in some way or another or Larry SECRETARY KISSINGER They have to be desperate Laughter MR EAGLEBURGER We'll never get it from Congress I hope you understand that MR SAUNDERS Well I suppose that's true but SECRETARY KISSINGER Why won't we get it Is that under Hays too 28 MR EAGLEBURGER Yes Hays would be all right but I think Slack would be very opposed MR SAUNDERS The position we're in now as you recall we concentrated in four main areas of research after an approach to you about a year and a half ago as I understand it And we're now funding research projects partly for the sake of the research but partly for the sake of the institutional support involved SECRETARY KISSINGER I hope you realize that Joe referring to Mr Sisco needs a slug of this money MR SISCO Well I realize it Laughter MR HABIB You can start an institute Joe right away Laughter MR SAUNDERS It's just something that has to be explored within the Government A decision has to be made one way or another I just wanted to bring this forward to you I just wanted you to be alerted SECRETARY KISSINGER O K Roy MR ATHERTON Well I guess the best thing to DECLASSIFIED Authorityffi 29 be said about Lebanon is it's highly diffused Laughter SECRETARY KISSINGER That's advantage of having a professional organiz on studying this Laughter Cut through the fog to reality MR ATHER'rON Well the military situation as far as we can tell this morning there hasn't been any signi cant move on the ground but there has been heavy shelling and casualties are high On the political side several th First of all possibly the most significant development has told us he's going to Damascus tomorrow and has indicated he's prepared to talk about a constitutional transition providing it happens quickly On the other hand Franjiyah has announced that he will never ever resign until expiration of s term SECRETARY KISSINGER Which is when MR ATHERTON September The Syrian formula is that it has an amendment in the consutution which would provide for make it possible for the President to resign six months before the termination of his term and then agree on a successor and then he would resign all within a very brief period --- _ i c ss - Authontyti Eo 1 30 of time What he's saying publicly makes it look as though he has backed away from this idea The Christians are obviously feeling more desperate We've had approaches now from them has asked for U S clarification suggesting possibly going to the Security Council Charles Malik has approached us although I largely discount his importance or effectiveness now in the situation The Syrians SECRETARY KISSINGER right wing isn't he MR ATHERTON Sorry SECRETARY KISSINGER tlft is right wing MR SISCO Former MR ATHERTON Former SECRETARY KISSINGER I know MR ATHERTON The Syrtians The signals are somewhat mixed In Lebanon itself the Syrian army officers who have been part of the mediating team returned to Damascus And there's some indication that some of the Syriancontrolled PLA and disengaging --··-r i cl· - s s i- -ii o·--1 Authority ' J j ' 'T t 1 I A r l tn 31 from the sort of peacekeeping mission that they've had On the other hand they do seem to be continuing on the diplomatic track calling people from Damascus Khaddam who got your message SECRETARY KISSINGER I understand MR ATHERTON has indicated there's no pressing detail You'll see the report from the Saudis The Saudis responded promptly to your message that you sent them SECRETARY KISSINGER I haven't seen it but I will before the end of the day All right let's discuss that in a separate meeting MR ATHERTON All right SECRETARY KISSINGER when I can assemble all the things MR ATHERTON Well I think that's sort of a status report on the things Could I say one more thing on the C130s SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes MR ATHERTON because it may come up SECRETARY KISSINGER Have I heard from the Egyptians on that DECLASSIFIED Authority f' Jffi 1 eprntnu cu oH un ∙• ' ·' ∙∙∙' MR ATHERTON No MR SISCO No MR A'rHERTON but there's a lot in the press today that will lead to questioning when you appear before the Humphrey Subcommittee The thrust of the press stories is that we are 32 leaning towards selling the civilian version of the C130 and th is a confusion The problem is this Defense would like very much to sell the export model which comes off of the production line under which the rst would be available in December I think what position we have to take is that we ought to keep open the option and that we've not made a decision until we can discuss with the Egyptians what they want SECRETARY KISSINGER We have promised to the Egyptians the Air Force model MR ATHERTON Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER Now there is no other option to be discussed There will be no other option to be discussed Roy MR ATHER'rON No we've been making that DECLASSIFIED Authorityffi 1 l l'llHIULI U u I IlL • ' ' ' ''' ' · ' 33 point with Defense that we cannot foreclose what we have already promised the Egyptians SECRETARY KISSINGER They cannot foreclose it They have no other choice MR ATHER'I'ON We have ed very hard to make MR HABIB There is a technical thing What's the model letter A B C D F Do you know what model There are some problems SECRETARY KISSINGER There were specific promises made I do not accept the proposition that we settle national policy by negotiation among Assistant Secretaries The President made a promise to Sadat which will be kept unless the Congress stops it There is no possibility of delivering it in December when we promised to deliver it in April MR ATHERTON This is what we expect We have been telling Defense so that they would not go public which they wanted to do saying that it was going to be the export model MR SISCO That killed it Why don't I give Clements a call and say precisely SECRETARY KISSINGER And tell him what Schlesinger Pres t MR SIS Yes I'll 1 c us to come out meant we would which I was to that made So we lled SECRETARY KISSINGER But why doesn't one in this or me who know ts MR ATHERTON Well we it sterday SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes e they' 11 start leaking it now already MR SISCO They've written the press story MR ATHERTON It could lead to questions MR FUNSETH They already leaked it to the press this morning MR SISCO I know SECRETARY KISSINGER Go ahead Jules 34 MR KATZ The Second Session of the Commission ends today Also there's a copper consultation in Geneva that's been going all week and that ends today as well DECLASSIFIED Authorityfi -r '- -- -- - On the Commission after a slow start they've H CpfOOUCt 'U ttlllll ' 111 llla•• ' ' '' '-' 35 had some very good discussions this week in detail SECRETARY KISSINGER On what subjects MR KATZ Well in the energy area they've been talking about the effects of oil prices for example the macroeconomic effects of oil prices The producers have raised questions about how to protect the value of their earnings but these discussions are characterized by a minimum of rhetoric And contrary to the first session there's full participation by all of the members of the Commission All of the LDCs are now making interventions Similarly in the Raw Materials Commission after a very slow start and they're not being quite sure how to proceed the've gotten into detailed questions now Where this all leads to is not clear I think it's useful in an educational sense that people are not making speeches they're talking about the real analytical issues that are involved If you go into the next meeting with UNCTAD then of course I think it becomes all highly political Similarly in the copper discussions this is the first consumer producer meeting we've had on the l eprootn cu aLIIIt ' ' ' 36 The report we have is that they have really been quite s ous We have said Let's start discussing the problem before we talk about measures and they've accepted that The only problem on the copper talks has been the UNCTAD Secretariat which will be getting worse in '77 We said We don't need the facts we know what the facts are SECRETARY KISSINGER Who runs the UNCTAD Secretariat MR KATZ A man by the name of C and I think he's been doing some consultations around the world on the future of UNCTAD and he's recognized this problem that the Secretariat and the professional staff see themselves as an LDC Secretariat and they're not objective in any sense of the term I think this 1s one of the real institutional problems with UNCTAD Some people will have to be MR LEWIS One of the things that KQ a has proposedthat may very well happen is that they're going to set up their own Secretariat separately And in UNCTAD he wants to be a more balanced negotiator in Secretariat form Df CLASSIFIED Aulhorityi ' 37 MR LEWIS That may happen SECRE'I'ARY KISSINGER What MR MAW We will have two '77 Secretariats MR KATZ Well I don't think so I think that might be a good pointI don't know The question is Who will pay for that The UN Secretariat has to pay for that '77 Mr Secretary the other point I think that you know that the President's speech to the textile industry today probably will have the reference SECRETARY KISSINGER I was told it would be ta ken out MR LORD It's a memo to the President saying you oppose any reference to it but Baker and Mortonand Dent are more for a compromise language SECRETARY KISSINGER There is no compromise language possible Once the President mentions the PRC not matter how softly he's got himself a major problem MR LORD I couldn't agree more I think you better call the President SECRETARY KISSINGER Well I called Scowcroft DECLASSIFIED uthority J 38 and he told me it would be taken out MR LORD The other positions are also on the table MR HABIB This is as of yesterday evening they were still having it in MR KATZ Well as of about a quarter to seven last night I was told that it went in to the President with the statement that Morton and Dent and Baker wanted it in and you were opposed And I assume Scowcroft was opposed SECRETARY KISSINGER Who's Baker What's his standing in there MR KATZ No 2 in Commerce MR HABIB No matter how they adjust the wording it's still the tac k'r MR LORD And as I understand the only country mentioning the speech ' £'' MR KATZ It's the only country where there is a problem MR LORD Yes but you can talk in general terms about the problem SECRETARY KISSINGER You cannot mention the PRC DECLASSIFIED Authority S 39 without having a major crisis with the PRC And it will not be done without an abso uproar out of this lding and nobody is going to cooperate with that sort of approach MR HABIB I think Morton is going to take the call from you SECRETARY KISSINGER Has he been inviting it MR HABIB Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER I'll put in a call right now In fact I have to call the President Larry can I see you for a minute MR EAGLEBURGER Yes sir Whereupon at 8 56 a m the Secretary's Staff Meeting was concluded IH CLASSIFIED Authority ffi liJ smar som f J 4 ata TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS _ hee f mae Rey % « l tess 3 Tefind Eriaay 2 ze 7e creomemmemmennmaresmmemmenn hee 4 T g $ i € pepantment or state He o Washington D C #5 ‘ BECRET — Mo Mt Rcprn lurl'tl 11 tht• Nntional Archive Secre of State ss r - Chairman D Mr Ingersoll p Mr s co E Mr Robinson T Ivlr Maw M Mr Eagleburger AF Mr Mulcahy Acting ARA Mr Rogers EA Mr Habib EUR Mr Armitage NEA Mr Atherton INR Mr Saunders S P Mr Lord EB Mr Katz Acting S PRS Mr Funseth PM Mr Vest IO Mr Lewis H Ambassador McCloskey L Mr Leigh S S Mr Springsteen s Mr Barbian G D S G D S DECLASSIFIED H cprodun•tl at till' 01ationa1 Archiv S 2 P R 0 C E D I N G S 's Staff Meeting was convened at 8 12a m Secre of State ssinger presiding as irman MR INGERSOLL Good morning Henry Discussion off the record MR INGERSOLL The boycott could have serious implications We'll have a paper to you on that and we can't find out anything about it -- SECRETARY KISSINGER What is this The Justice Department -- MR INGERSOLL Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER is investigating the bi oil companies for their conduct during the boycott the one time they behaved in a patriotic fashion MR INGERSOLL Well in may not be limited in that period but it starts there SECRETARY KISSINGER One time they kept everybody going by putting oil into one big pool and that's anti-trust MR LEIGH Well they won't tell us very much about it Mr Secretary That's why we need your help on it before the grand jury is convened Now this DECLASSIFIED I eprodurt•d lf tht' ational Archiv •s 3 is not just a c l inves Once that's done we wouldn't be able to say anything MR INGERSOLL That's why we think we have to move on it and they say it's very confiden al They just told us about it They won't tell us anything about tne details -- if that's 'consultation laughter I will have it to you today One other point I'd like to make is this may be my last Staff Meeting Henry and I'll be thinking of all of you on the slopes of Aspen maybe next week I aughter 1'-'lR IVIAW The slippery slope MR INGERSOLL Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER Bob we're going to have a cocktail party for you where I suppose most of these people are going to bei but I need not tell you how much you will be missed MR INGERSOLL Thank you I'll miss all of you SECRETARY KISSINGER I want to tell you that with dignity and calm you performed this job and even diplomats will not say this of me when I leave Keep your laughing within limits Laughter MR EAGLEBURGER He's not a diplomat pointing DECLASSIFIED Heprmlured al tilt· 1 alional rchin s 4 to Mr Leigh MR SISCO I haven't anything MR ROBINSON I just came back from New York Association I want to report that they announced your forthcoming speech before that group on the Law of the Sea and everyone became very excited Two women fainted in the front row laughter and it was very shattering My inferiority complex was with me just before I was to speak But I just want you to know that they're very excited about your coming up SECRETARY KISSINGER Why only two Laughter MR INGERSOLL That's all there were Laughter MR ROBINSON They're very pleased and I just wanted to tell you how excited they were about your forthcoming speech SECRETARY KISSINGER Are we getting a draft If that boy drafts as well as he talks it's going to be the greatest speech since the Gettysburg Address MR EAGLEBURGER It will be longer Laughter SECRETARY KISSINGER We can put in some of the details depending on the discussions with Treasury but I had the sense yesterday that we were going to get DECLASSIFIED 'produrl'd HI 1hl' Nation 1l Archives DEC LASS I Authoritvt 11 ' 'I 5 most of our proposals MR LORD I think we can get certa ly enough with that speech SECRE'I'ARY KISSINGER 0 K MR MULCAHY Now this day the suspense of the talks in Lusaka that we attached quite a bit of importance to broke up without a statement SECRETARY KISSINGER The talks where MR MULCAHY This was the Four Power talks-- Presidents Machel Khama Nyerere and Kaunda meeting in Lusaka on where they could go from here with the I odesian situation They had both Rhodesian nationalist factions there and Nkomo apparently according to the press No reconciliation took place ' between Nkomo and Nyerere which was one of the purposes of the thing Also it broke up without any sort of communique which is not a good sign and -- SECRETARY KISSINGER VJhy MR MULCAHY Well -- SECRETARY KISSINGER It means -- MR MULCAHY 'Jell it means that Nkomo and Kaunda who are generally reliable as far as the 6 ne t concerned r s SI iCRETARY KISSINGER But it also means t the 1 uade there 't be ne ia MIL MULCAHY Yes that's right If you're an st take that view SECRETARY KISSINGER If you're a realist - I mean what else can it mean It means they could MR MULCAHY Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER But what's more likely to MR MULCAHY Well I think if SECRE'rARY KISSINGER Where is the Assistant Secretary incidentally MR MULCAHY He's on his way back from Paris He went to the reinforced NAC in Brussels and he'll be back this afternoon SECRETARY KISSINGER Go ahead MR MULCAHY But what probably will happen is that this now will increase the pressure on Smith that -- SECRETARY KISSINGER Only in your mind Since £CLASSIFIED Authority ' t ' H t•produn·tl at thl' National Archin• - he broke off the talks why should it increase the sure on him MR MULCAHY Well because they all now agree that the guerrilla warfare will continue and be stepped up that a SECRETARY KISSINGER ady I thought they all said MR MULCAHY They have but there's relatively little of it But I think now with the rainy season we'll see a great deal of infiltration across the border One of the proposals under consideration was 7 to put a lway system through Botswana to South Africa The principal rail line will also cause UN sanctions It's a knotty problem because the rail line is the property of the Rhodesian Government We think that this was one of the issues under consideration SECRETARY KISSINGER Can I get a paper by the middle of next week of how we're going to get from here to there --I mean what AF visualizes is going to happen now and what we can do now other than hand-wringing MR MULCAHY Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER And exactly what steps f •pnHimTd II thl' iH1iunal Archive- 8 should be taken hopefully that are within the realm of realism by Wednes HR MULCAHY Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER Phil We've opened a new chapter of diplomacy as far as I can see We now have on the front page of the Post a note we haven't even sent yet MR HABIB That story was basically two days old It came SECRETARY KISSINGER Has that note been sent MR HABIB Yesterday SECRETARY KISSINGER I thought I told you Larry that I disapproved it MR HABIB It went to you It went out last night I was told I got a phone call at 5 30-6 00 o'clock telling me it's gone because I've got the comeback copy this morning SECRETARY KISSINGER Well at 5 30-6 00 I sure as hell wasn't approving anything MR HABIB We did it 1n accordance with your changes MR BARBIAN That's right Two cables ---r r Ci xs-sl - Eo-1 i iithoritvt lt IQ I r - Hcprmlun•d al Ott' Naliowrl ArchiH -s MR HABIB One didn't go SECRETARY KISSINGER There may have been two cables but I didn't see them May I see them now Mr Barbian hands Secretary a document to peruse MR HABIB The last paragraph SECRETARY KISSINGER O K Go ahead MR HABIB 'rhe other thing is that you have approval of the first stage of the Thai withdrawal actions SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes but I want to have a significant cut also in the military advisers MR HABIB Yes The ceiling lS 270 We're down around 200 now We're supposed to go below that before the end of the 9 SECRETARY KISSINGER I want the Thais to see a withdrawal The Thais don't know what our ceiling is Therefore if we just keep it -- MR HABIB No They set the ceiling The ceiling of 270 is a ceiling which -- SECRETARY KISSINGER Have we pulled out 70 l •produn·d al tlw 'ational Archlvts 10 or have we simply not replaced 70 MH HABIB Well the 70 are not there SECRE'rARY KISSINGER •rhey have never been there MR HABIB No They have been temporarily withdrawn and there was some thought of pulling it down lower SECRETARY KISSINGER I would like the Thais to see that after their decision there is some reduction in the part they want s to have stay MR HABIB I understand SECRETARY KISSINGER -- and we can keep the ceiling and put in more people later on if they ask for it MR HABIB Well what we want to do is keep the ceiling so that later on if we need to it would be intelligence people not MAG people and vary it with the MAG SECRETARY KISSINGER That's fine MR HABIB That's what we had in mind Also we have to now take very tough decisions on such things as pulling out the ammunition we have stored in place That's going to really show the Thais what this is costing because we've got about 60 million Reprmlun'tl 11 he ' 1tional Archin SECRET 11 dollars worth of ammuni on which under present law we cannot leave there And we can either sell it to them or take it out They're not going to buy it they're going to want us to leave it there and give it to them -- which would not be possible That's going to hurt So there's going to be a series of actions which I hope very frankly I'd rather not take on some of them until the election is out of the way -- until the election is out of the way -- which is eight more days nine more days If we get the election out of the way we may have a new government we may not have a new government We'll see what happens so we'll try to keep you informed SECRETARY KISSINGER I forgot Is the Vice President stopping there or not MR HABIB No sir -- because of the election The other thing is that the Koreans have now indicted 18 people from the last official statement and they've indicted them under a less severe act than they might have put them under Now whether that's the k of reaction taken in response to the kind of protest I don't know SECRET DECLASSIFIED Ht'JHtHlurl'd al tltt' ' atiunal Archive At the same the've re-indicted a rather well known international official who under a law would permit them to sentence him to death This is a guy who's already sentenced to life imprisonment under a previous commitment SECRETARY KISSINGER Where lS he Is he in prison MR HABIB He's in prison under a life sentence and they've just re-indicted him under another law which permits them to sentence him to death SECRETARY KISSINGER They don't take any chances do they Laughter MR HABIB They don't take any chances The guy is very sick besides He won't make it for very long Laughter But the rumble is up on the Hill They tell me they have actuallywritten letters themselves They have written letters to Parker to see what he can do about the situation 12 I have to appear before the Humphrey Subcommittee on Korea at 4 00 and I'm sure they're going to give me a very bad time position But I think we can hold to the Heprodun·d at the ational Archive - 13 MR MA v I got a pretty bad time on it be the House Inte onal Relations Committee on Monday and you're going to get it today SECRETARY KISSINGER I'm glad you let them schedule me so nicely before these Committees Laughter Go ahead MR ARMITAGE Art Hartman had to go to the doctor this morning He'll be here the middle of the morning Mr Secretary We've got a couple of helpful developments j on protection of Sovi personnel in Moscow There was a bomb threat yesterday Part of the Embassy was evacuated but no bomb was found SECRETARY KISSINGER But that was already in the papers yesterday or was that another one MR ARMI'rAGE No That was the same SECRETARY KISSINGER There are no statements to be made on the Soviet Union that I do not personally clear We cannot harass the Soviets every single bloody day with some other tough talk out of this building and we mishandled the three Missions business There's no need for us to shoot at them the day it happened We could have said yesterday We are studying it -- that DECLASSIFIED Authoritv f 1 I Hcprodun•d at the ntional Archivl'S 14 we are asking for a full report MR FUNSETH That guidance that I used in going out to Moscow is press guidance two days before SECRETARY KISSINGER I didn't approve it ther That's how the other disaster happened That went out as press guidance immediately MR ARMITAGE We now have one in New York Mr Secretary The New York Police Department dis mantled the bomb stored out of Amtorg yesterday thereby SECRETARY KISSINGER Are we going to protest to the Soviets and say they did it MR ARMITAGE No sir The search had been made earlier after the telephone warning found nothing SECRETARY KISSINGER The press guidance to Moscow must be cleared now here There's not to be another one that I don't see MR FUNSETH All right sir MR ARMITAGE The bomb was actually found by Soviet personnel disarmed by the police And it's just possible that if the police would have been a little more vigilant they could have been caught by this time because they didn't leave anybody around after the search were for the MR LEWIS There•s another to New York t from ano and FBI t 't the s the more JDL what was z t of re SECRETARY KISSINGER we are so can we a statement MR FUNSETH Yes Heprudun d nl th ntional Archin s 16 SECRETARY KISSINGER -- and calling on the New York Police and others to assist MR SISCO I'll see what we can do with that MR INGERSOLL I called the Mayor and the Mayor said the Commissioner was going to call me back They were going to get some Federal indictments I don't think they have done anything yet have they MR ARMITAGE No Shooting into the Riverdale and the bomb around Aeroflot But they say they haven't been able to turn up any leads yet MR INGERSOLL But some of these harassments that take place -- the New York Police arrest them and let them go MR L E WI S For example on carrying signs they insist they have no legal right to arrest people for carrying nasty signs And the FBI claims it's doing everything it can and we've been at them at high levels But this kidnapping is really scary They really have a capacity for doing it MR ARMITAGE We've gotten all our advisers and we haven't been able to find anything SECRETARY KISSINGER You can't prosecute somebody Reprudun_·d 0111hc Nationnl Archin' 17 who publicly says somebody else is going to kidnap somebody MR ARMITAGE Apparently not -- if they attribute it to somebody else and they make a statement that makes it clear they will do it They usually couch it in that way SECRETARY KISSINGER And giving publicity to such a threat does not -- MR LEIGH I doubt that that could possibly be considered part of the conspiracy -- to kidnap or a threat to kidnap SECRETARY KISSINGER Well the Soviets are bound to do something and it's just indecent of us to wax so indignant when they for weeks have been harassed in the most unforgivable way and then for us to be so self-righteously indignant yesterday That's really distressing On this issue they're right There's a limit to the domestic politics we can play You know damn well that our people in Moscow -- that's one thing they don't do harass them gratuitously But what are we going to do Can we make a statement today condemning these 18 MR FUNSETH Yes sir MR EAGLEBURGER I better see if we can get some more people back We've had 80 SY agents We just haven't got any more-- that's the real problem SECRETARY KISSINGER Are any of them near the Missions MR EAGLEBURGER Yes We've had them near the Soviets SECRE'I'ARY KISSINGER Well could somebody give the Soviets a surrunary -- or has somebody done that of what we're doing for them MR ARMITAGE Oh yes sir -- yes sir repeatedly And we've also issued very strong deploring statements before when these things have happened in New York MR FUNSETH Our guidance said that yesterday SECRETARY KISSINGER I do not want Bureaus to run their own anti-detente campaign and everyone trying to prove how tough they are And one day we're going to have a major crisis and everyone will run for the fox holes MR LEWIS There were some demonstrations by the JDL against Ambassador Malik when he was in the DECLASSIFIED Authority'f J 'J 19 hospital The police fortunately provided very good protection and there was no se ous dif culty or idents And apparently Malik was tty well s s ed -- at least on that occasion th the kind of response he got SECRETARY KISSINGER O K Are you finished Addresses Mr Armitage MR ARMITAGE Yes s SECRETARY KISSINGER Bill MR ROGERS The chief negotiator in Panama has resigned It looks as though for personal reasons he's going to be succeeded in all probability by Guerra who's a former Foreign Minister SECRETARY KISSINGER I don't think is such a great loss is he MR ROGERS No sir It wouldn't seem that way -- even in Panama In Argentina although the junta has had some pretty good success we're trying to make whatever estimates we can about what's going to happen We've asked both the Mission and Washington to do their own visualizations -- to compare them But I think the preliminary estimate has got to be that it's going to go 20 downhill s junta lS tes ng the basic proposition that Argentina is not governable so 're going to succeed where everybody else has failed I think that's a distinctly odds-on choice I think we're going to look for a considerable effort to involve the United States -- particularly in the financial field I think we're going to see a good deal SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes but that's in our interest MR ROGERS If there's a chance of it succeeding and if they're not asking us to put too much up on the table What we're going to try to do when and if they come up with such a plan is what we were prepared to do about six months ago We had worked out as intermediaries a sensible program for inter national assistance using the private banks and monetary institutions Whether we can pull that off again I don't know but I think we're going to hear from them very early on in terms of financial programs I think also we've got to expect a fair amount of repression probably a good deal of blood in Argentina 21 before too long I think they're going to have to come down hard not only on the terrorists but on the dissidents of trade unions and their parties SECRETARY KISSINGER But - MR ROGERS The point I'm making is that although they have good press today the basic line of all the interference was they had to do it because she couldn't run the country So I think the point is that we ought not at this moment to rush out and embrace this new regime -- that three-six months later will be considerably less popular with the press SECRETARY KISSINGER But we shouldn't do the opposite either MR ROGERS Oh no obviously not MR McCLOSKEY What do we say about recognition MR ROGERS Well we're going to recognize th morning a formal note in response to their request for recognition -- as have virtually all the other countries of Latin America But beyond that Hill will ke p his mouth shut SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes but what does that mean concretely Whatever chance they have they will need 22 a li encouragement from us What is he telling them MR ROGERS What Oh nothing He has not been talking with them yet He has not been invited to talk with them He's ready to go in and talk with them when and if they request a meeting But the Generals who are now presently occupying the Ministerial posts are there very temporarily -- probably for the week -- until the junta can make its final decisions as to whom they're going to appoint They will make decisions on who they will appoint within a week We think we know who's the Foreign Minister -- which is the key appointment SECRETARY KISSINGER Who t A MR ROGERS Probably a fellow named 1u who we have worked with in the past And if he is appointed then I think we're in a position to work with him SECRETARY KISSINGER But can I see some instructions on what you're going to tell Hill if somebody should come in -- MR ROGERS Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER -- because I do want to encourage them I don't want to give the sense that ·----- ---- b-Eci -S · -s' ·ll·-·- - -··E D ···--·· Authority _1 l jJ_CJJ_Cf_f 0 • B f JL ak _3 _t£ fz • LEWISi two York Most of Russians 't Most the some so So it's a Do Mr want us to a be use or not SECRETARY KISSINGER I 't see we can a MR LEWIS 2 cans s as to ther are to 24 be out tomorrow That is now publicly known everywhere If a debate takes place it will focus on the South African presence in Namibia rather than Angola On the other hand the Cubans are the only foreign troops now in Angola so the Chinese are going to hit the Russians very hard in the debate next week and we can also do the same so there are some arguments either way SECRETARY KISSINGER Well I would generally think we're better off with no debate We've made our point on Angola several times MR LEWIS Yes sir SECRETARY KISSINGER But I wouldn't spill blood over it If there is we should hit foreign intervention in Angola and ask for the withdrawal of Cuban troops MR LEWIS All right 'rhat' s all SECRETARY KISSINGER Hal HR SAUNDERS Since Lebanon was mentioned I want to men·tion another issue on which you may be approached in the next few weeks from the academic community and this is the Russian Research Center at DECLASSIFIED Authority J 25 Harvard As you know they've been coming on increasingly difficult times financially to the point where Harvard looks like it's meeting about one-fifth of its planned budget next year SECRETARY KISSINGER Are they financed mostly by the Government MR SAUNDERS They were to receive Defense money ivhen that receded as you remember last year we put some project money in rather than program-type money And the approach that will be made to us this year is for the State Department to seek from Congress the authority to provide basic grant money to perhaps as many as 30 of these centers around the country some of which a re in danger of closing their doors SECRETARY KISSINGER And how much would we need It's a lot of money MR SAUNDERS Four and a half million dollars SECRETARY KISSINGER Million MR SAUNDERS Million yes -- of course SECRETARY KISSINGER For 30 institutions MR SAUNDERS You would figure just hypothetically to two hundred thousand -- that would be maximum Nobody -·-l i c t - -Assli - Eo-1 Authority t- ' - '--' -- - 26 has costed this out yet and I'm giving you an outside figure It could be less SECRETARY KISSINGER But what do they do with $200 000 MR SAUNDERS At the Harvard Center the budget is $150 000 for next year so we're really talking per center about relatively small amounts of money They have a research contract with the center for sixty thousand this year SECRETARY KISSINGER Studying what MR SAUNDERS Dynamics of Soviet -- SECRETARY KISSINGER And who's doing it I'm not sure It's not many governments who finance studies that demonstrate their incompetence Laughter What do you think you're going to get out of a Harvard study on the Soviet Union MR SAUNDERS It needs some more basic dynamics of decision-making processes SECRETARY KISSINGER In the Soviet Union MR SAUNDERS Right SECRETARY KISSINGER On this one I'm basically sympathetic though I have no illusions about what's going 27 to come out of it MR SAUNDERS No I think we're all in the same boat The question is really whether the Government should support this kind of institution in the country And there are two ways of going about it one the National Defense Con®unications Act where HEW concentrates mainly on broad citizen education and tends not to concentrate on the specialized centers And the ' alternative would be for the Department to concentrate l on the specialized centers We'll send you a memo on this outlining the pros and cons There are a lot of other people to be worked into the process but we've heard that some people are going to approach you in some way or another or Larry SECRETARY KISSINGER They have to be desperate Laughter MR EAGLEBURGER We'll never get it from Congress I hope you understand that MR SAUNDERS Well I suppose that's true but SECRETARY KISSINGER Why won't we get it Is that under Hays too 28 MR EAGLEBURGER Yes Hays would be all right but I think Slack would be very opposed MR SAUNDERS The position we're in now as you recall -- we concentrated in four main areas of research after an approach to you about a year and a half ago as I understand it And we're now funding research projects partly for the sake of the research but partly for the sake of the institutional support involved SECRETARY KISSINGER I hope you realize that Joe referring to Mr Sisco needs a slug of this money MR SISCO Well I realize it Laughter MR HABIB You can start an institute Joe right away Laughter MR SAUNDERS It's just something that has to be explored within the Government A decision has to be made one way or another I just wanted to bring this forward to you I just wanted you to be alerted SECRETARY KISSINGER O K Roy MR ATHERTON Well I guess the best thing to DECLASSIFIED Authorityffi 29 be said about Lebanon is it's highly diffused Laughter SECRETARY KISSINGER That's advantage of having a professional organiz on studying this Laughter Cut through the fog to reality MR ATHER'rON Well the military situation as far as we can tell this morning -- there hasn't been any signi cant move on the ground but there has been heavy shelling and casualties are high On the political side several th First of all possibly the most significant development -- has told us he's going to Damascus tomorrow and has indicated he's prepared to talk about a constitutional transition providing it happens quickly On the other hand Franjiyah has announced that he will never ever resign until expiration of s term SECRETARY KISSINGER Which is when MR ATHERTON September The Syrian formula is that it has an amendment in the consutution which would provide for -- make it possible for the President to resign six months before the termination of his term and then agree on a successor -- and then he would resign all within a very brief period --- _ i c ss - Eo --1 Authontyti 30 of time What he's saying publicly makes it look as though he has backed away from this idea The Christians are obviously feeling more desperate We've had approaches now from them has asked for U S clarification suggesting possibly going to the Security Council Charles Malik has approached us although I largely discount his importance or effectiveness now in the situation The Syrians SECRETARY KISSINGER right wing isn't he MR ATHERTON Sorry SECRETARY KISSINGER tlft is right wing MR SISCO Former MR ATHERTON Former SECRETARY KISSINGER I know MR ATHERTON The Syrtians The signals are somewhat mixed In Lebanon itself the Syrian army officers who have been part of the mediating team returned to Damascus And there's some indication that some of the Syrian-controlled PLA and disengaging --··-r i cl· - s s i- -ii o·--1 Authority ' J j ' 'T t 1- I A r l tn 31 from the sort of peacekeeping mission that they've had On the other hand they do seem to be continuing on the diplomatic track calling people from Damascus Khaddam who got your message SECRETARY KISSINGER I understand MR ATHERTON has indicated there's no pressing detail You'll see the report from the Saudis The Saudis responded promptly to your message that you sent them SECRETARY KISSINGER I haven't seen it but I will before the end of the day All right let's discuss that in a separate meeting- -- MR ATHERTON All right SECRETARY KISSINGER -- when I can assemble all the things MR ATHERTON Well I think that's sort of a status report on the things Could I say one more thing on the C-130s -- SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes MR ATHERTON -- because it may come up -- SECRETARY KISSINGER Have I heard from the Egyptians on that DECLASSIFIED Authority f' Jffi 1- eprntnu cu oH un ·• ' ·' ···' MR ATHERTON No-- MR SISCO No MR A'rHERTON but there's a lot in the press today that will lead to questioning when you appear before the Humphrey Subcommittee The thrust of the press stories is that we are 32 leaning towards selling the civilian version of the C-130 and th is a confusion The problem is this Defense would like very much to sell the export model which comes off of the production line under which the rst would be available in December I think what position we have to take is that we ought to keep open the option and that we've not made a decision until we can discuss with the Egyptians what they want SECRETARY KISSINGER We have promised to the Egyptians the Air Force model MR ATHERTON Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER Now there is no other option to be discussed There will be no other option to be discussed Roy MR ATHER'rON No --we've been making that DECLASSIFIED Authorityffi 1 l l'llHIULI U u I IlL • ' ' ' ''' ' · ' 33 point with Defense that we cannot foreclose what we have already promised the Egyptians SECRETARY KISSINGER They cannot foreclose it They have no other choice MR ATHER'I'ON We have ed very hard to make MR HABIB There is a technical thing What's the model letter -- A B C D F Do you know what model There are some problems SECRETARY KISSINGER There were specific promises made I do not accept the proposition that we settle national policy by negotiation among Assistant Secretaries The President made a promise to Sadat -- which will be kept -- unless the Congress stops it There is no possibility of delivering it in December when we promised to deliver it in April MR ATHERTON This is what we expect We have been telling Defense so that they would not go public -- which they wanted to do saying that it was going to be the export model MR SISCO That killed it Why don't I give Clements a call and say precisely -- SECRETARY KISSINGER And tell him what Schlesinger Pres t MR SIS Yes I'll 1 c us to come out meant we would which I was to that made So we lled SECRETARY KISSINGER But why doesn't one in this -- or me -- who know ts MR ATHERTON Well we it sterday SECRETARY KISSINGER Yes e they' 11 start leaking it now already MR SISCO They've written the press story MR ATHERTON It could lead to questions MR FUNSETH They already leaked it to the press this morning MR SISCO I know SECRETARY KISSINGER Go ahead Jules 34 MR KATZ The Second Session of the Commission ends today Also there's a copper consultation in Geneva that's been going all week and that ends today as well DECLASSIFIED Authorityfi -r '- -- -- - On the Commission after a slow start they've H CpfOOUCt 'U ttlllll ' 111 llla•• ' ' '' '-' 35 had some very good discussions this week in detail SECRETARY KISSINGER On what subjects MR KATZ Well in the energy area they've been talking about the effects of oil prices for example -- the macro-economic effects of oil prices The producers have raised questions about how to protect the value of their earnings but these discussions are characterized by a minimum of rhetoric And contrary to the first session there's full participation by all of the members of the Commission All of the LDCs are now making interventions Similarly in the Raw Materials Commission after a very slow start and they're not being quite sure how to proceed the've gotten into detailed questions now Where this all leads to is not clear I think it's useful in an educational sense that people are not making speeches they're talking about the real analytical issues that are involved If you go into the next meeting with UNCTAD then of course I think it becomes all highly political Similarly in the copper discussions this is the first consumer producer meeting we've had on the l eprootn cu aLIIIt ' ' ' 36 The report we have is that they have really been quite s ous We have said Let's start discussing the problem before we talk about measures and they've accepted that The only problem on the copper talks has been the UNCTAD Secretariat -- which will be getting worse in '77 We said We don't need the facts we know what the facts are SECRETARY KISSINGER Who runs the UNCTAD Secretariat MR KATZ A man by the name of C and I think he's been doing some consultations around the world on the future of UNCTAD and he's recognized this problem -- that the Secretariat and the professional staff see themselves as an LDC Secretariat and they're not objective in any sense of the term I think this 1s one of the real institutional problems with UNCTAD Some people will have to be -- MR LEWIS One of the things that KQ a has proposed-- that may very well happen-- is that they're going to set up their own Secretariat separately And in UNCTAD he wants to be a more balanced negotiator in Secretariat form Df CLASSIFIED Aulhorityi ' 37 MR LEWIS That may happen SECRE'I'ARY KISSINGER What MR MAW We will have two '77 Secretariats MR KATZ Well I don't think so I think that might be a good point-- I don't know The question is Who will pay for that The UN Secretariat has to pay for that '77 Mr Secretary the other point I think that you know that the President's speech to the textile industry today probably will have the reference SECRETARY KISSINGER I was told it would be ta ken out MR LORD It's a memo to the President saying you oppose any reference to it but Baker and Mortonand Dent are more for a compromise language SECRETARY KISSINGER There is no compromise language possible Once the President mentions the PRC -- not matter how softly -- he's got himself a major problem MR LORD I couldn't agree more I think you better call the President SECRETARY KISSINGER Well I called Scowcroft DECLASSIFIED uthority J 38 and he told me it would be taken out MR LORD The other positions are also on the table MR HABIB This is as of yesterday evening they were still having it in MR KATZ Well as of about a quarter to seven last night I was told that it went in to the President with the statement that Morton and Dent and Baker wanted it in and you were opposed And I assume Scowcroft was opposed SECRETARY KISSINGER Who's Baker What's his standing in there MR KATZ No 2 in Commerce MR HABIB No matter how they adjust the wording it's still the tac k'r MR LORD And as I understand the only country mentioning the speech ' - -£'' MR KATZ It's the only country where there is a problem MR LORD Yes but you can talk in general terms about the problem SECRETARY KISSINGER You cannot mention the PRC DECLASSIFIED Authority S 39 without having a major crisis with the PRC And it will not be done without an abso uproar out of this lding and nobody is going to cooperate with that sort of approach MR HABIB I think Morton is going to take the call from you SECRETARY KISSINGER Has he been inviting it MR HABIB Yes SECRETARY KISSINGER I'll put in a call right now In fact I have to call the President Larry can I see you for a minute MR EAGLEBURGER Yes sir Whereupon at 8 56 a m the Secretary's Staff Meeting was concluded IH CLASSIFIED Authority ffi liJ

OCR of the Document

[Staff Meeting Transcripts] Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, Chairman, Secret, [pages 19-23 regarding Argentina]