8856 CONFIDEN'l'IAL THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON SUBJECT Meeting with Leonid Kravchuk Ukrainian Supreme Soviet Chairman PARTICIPANTS The President Lawrence Eagleburger Acting Secretary of State Nicholas Brady Secretary of the Treasury John H Sununu Chief of Staff Brent Scowcroft Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Robert S Strauss Ambassador to the USSR Ed A Hewett Senior Director for Soviet Affairs NSC Staff Notetaker Lawrence Napper Director Office of Soviet - Union Affairs Department of State George Sajewych Interpreter Leonid M Kravchuk Chairman of the Supreme Soviet Anatoliy Zlenko Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine Dmytro Pavlychko Chairman of the Committee on Foreign Affairs Ukrainian Supreme Soviet Aleksandr Melnyk Person l Advisor to the Chairman Oleh Semenets Interpreter DATE TIME AND PLACE September 25 1991 1 35 - 2 15pm Cabinet Room The President Welcome First I want to thank you for your hospitality in Kiev It was an unforgettable event a visit at a very interesting time History has gotten even more interesting since I left U I want to hear from you what your priorities are Our Ambassador to the Soviet Union Robert Strauss is here He is interested in Ukraine President also introduces the other u s participants U I am delighted to have you here Please go ahead and start President Kravchuk I would first like to extend my gratitude for the possibility to continue the conversation we began on DECLASSIFIED -e0NF IDEN HAL Declassify on OADR rn Jr f1 T' A -PER E- 1 958 Lu11r iLL i ii I IRL AS AMEf iDED r fi a to1ro-o F v ' U From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION -€0NE'llJENTIAL • - l l - • - - ' '-·· August 1 in Kiev Mr President you said that was an interesting visit Kievites still remember my meeting with the President of the United States U There have been big changes since then Ukraine has declared its independence It has begun to directly construct its own independent structures an independent legislature legislation aimed at economic reconstruction and democracy We will have a referendum and a presidential election in December I am confident that the referendum will confirm Parliament's declaration of our independence U We must change all aspects of our economic and political life This is no time for modest changes We will change dramatically I realize we face a complex situation The Soviet Union is virtually disintegrating There is no national government There is no Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union I cannot tell you when it will be set up It depends on the republics This is an extraordinary historical period in which we have a state without a government S e We control the situation in the Ukraine Stability in the Ukraine is higher now than before the coup There is less confrontation now We have a common aim We face concrete tasks J R 1 We have started forming a new constitution which envisages democratic changes in the system of power The new constitution will be centered on human rights and the rights of national minorities 2' Ukraine should directly participate in international relations with other countries and should have direct relations with other countries J GtOn nuclear weapons Ukraine wants to be a non-nuclear state and is ready to participate in the Non-Proliferation Treaty We will participate in the reduction of nuclear weapons For now nuclear weapons should be controlled by one center We are against transferring nuclear weapons from one republic to another We want to join in the START treaty We favor eliminating these weapons throughout the world J R T We have severe economic problems Production is falling we are in a recession Over the last 1 2 year production has fallen ten percent Privatization and the move to a free market is not going well We favor drastic change We have introduced legislation giving equal treatment to all forms of property and creating conditions favoring a market economy a law on economic independence of the Ukraine a law onpxternal economic activity and an investment protection law ke' From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive $12' CONFIDENT I-AL - I ____ _- __ We will create the most favorable conditions for investment in the Ukraine We will forgive taxes on funds that are reinvested We are moving to create our own currency our own tax system and our own national bank which already has correspondent relations with other banks We want direct diplomatic relations with the U S We request the U S to establish such relations The U S should initiate programs for the Ukraine favoring investment and promoting bilateral economic relations Our priorities are in defense conversion we have 30% of the defense potential of the Soviet Union processing of agricultural products and communications We ask that you give credits directly to Ukraine 9-9t through the center Credits to the center give us nothing e · Up until December 1 we would like to have a plenipotentiary representative here for contac yith the U S After December 1 we will ask for recognition WJ For now we ask you to support democracy in the Ukraine and the aspirations for a new economic system Ukraine has a favorable geopolitical position in Europe We have good possibilities to use credits from abroad The legislation we are now developing will help On the Union and its future The Union cannot exist in any serious form There is a struggle for power there and we cannot be part of a union in which there are some members more powerful than others It is better for you to have direct ties with the republics JJ2 The President Thank you for your presentation Clearly the U S will be on the side of democracy and reform of the economic system I know Secretary Brady has explained that we want to help with food and humanitarian assistance as soon as possible We want to see an equitable dfstribution of our assistance so that the assistance does not go to just one area lc f' We need to know the results of your elections before you decide on independence There is also the question of the relations you work out with the center We think that some form of economic union is better but one in which you enjoy your sovereign rights kC American investors want a clear view of how this will all work They want to know that a deal is firm and that no other entity will have a claim I am sure Secretary Brady discussed this with you This must be sorted out µzf The Ukraine has a special standing in the minds of the American people There are lots of Ukrainians here They want what you want But this must be determined by the people -coNE' I DE 't'P-IAL - C8NFIOENTJAl From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive We would like to open a Ukrainian trade mission here in the U S We would also like to have MFN treatment for the Ukraine ef CONFIDEN'±'IAL Businessmen must know what the rules are You must work out an arrangement with the center as I know you are j c We are giving urgent attention to assistance We would like to know -- not necessarily right now -- what you need J e' It is not the role of the U S to determine the final shape of the union You must determine that We must deal with the center on so 1 matters but not to the exclusion of the republics Ambassador Strauss' responsibility will include the consulate in the Ukraine This is a delicate situation we must walk through I was pleased at your comments on nuclear weapons We would like your support in concluding START and CFE I hope you will work with the center on the conclusion of these treaties to see that they are ratified and implemented This fits in with your idea of a nuclear-free Ukraine unthreatened by nuclear weapons from anyone The whole change in the Ukraine promises great changes in nuclear weapons To the degree you influence those responsible for ratification please help Let me reiterate that our policy is on two complementary tracks We will work closely with Silaev and the Interrepublican Economic Committee on assistance to republics We must· make sure that assistance is distributed equitably It is crucial that this group The IEC come up with a market reform plan working with the IMF and the World Bank They should appoint one person as a contact with the republics J R The U S must look to union-wide assistance You wo out the details We will be dealing with the republics K I talked to Boris Yel'tsin today with Gorbachev by p one Je He talks three times a day The second point is that we want to work with Ukraine in other ways The paper your Prime Minister gave me in Ukraine addresses this We will work to increase trade introduce a Peace Corp and other measures We will include Ukraine in technical assistance food distribution for example j 2 We are running short on time questions U But did you have any final President Kravchuk I will not respond to all you said but just focus on one thing food assistance U The Ukraine does not need food assistance We may be interested in buying fodder from the U S We have a difficult situation The Soviet Union has received food assistance but the Ukraine has not Now we must pay these debts While the Soviet Union was getting assistance we were sending 60 000 tons of meat and -€ONFIDEN f tAL - CONFIBENTJ-At From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive ¢ €0NFIBEN'I'IAL milk to the Soviet Union Maybe Silaev can get assistance from abroad but we must pay Our request is that you give us credits We'll buy technology We'll invite businessmen to invest in Ukraine We'll work y ' The Soviet Union's debt to the world is $70 billion We'll pay our share But in the future we cannot accept more central debt We want technology We want to work in a market economy The Silaev Committee has no power Six years of effort and nothing to show for it As for technical assistance we have our priorities We are thankful to you for including us in these programs We must stop the drop in production We must use our great potential We need a push to market eJ We have proclaimed our independence support That's our great problem Now people expect economic The President Do you see that there must be an economic union with a center or not We think that is a necessary step to encourage investment President Kravchuk I would be glad to have that if the center could do something But the center is incapable of doing anything We're losing time The Soviet Union is a huge country It is impossible to pursue economic reform at a rapid pace in the entire country We would like these credits and assistance to go to the Ukraine There should be coordination with other republics on the basis of treaties we've signed · W In the Soviet Union e cannot-find new technology The reason Russia cannot sell us all the oil and timber we need is because th r technology is outmoded and their production therefore low· ' We must find some other way Those in euphoria today are unrealistic about our situation U -The President This gives us a better understanding of the situation Are you going to be here longer before going to New York U President Kravchuk We will stay here today and tomorrow then go to Chicago Boston then New York at the United Nations General Assembly U I ·---- -6-QWi'IDFN' PIAL --CONFIDENTIAL From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive Tadjikistan Uzbekistan Turkmenstan are each different republics with their own specific features We can only trade with them at a just price Before we had to send them products at low prices e'J fONFij ENTIAL COl JFIDEN'fIAL The President This has been very interesting and I wish I had more time Would it be possible for you to come back later and meet with Nick Brady Ed Hewett and others U President Kravchuk We would be glad to The President Ed Hewett can you set something up Dr Hewett OK Yes sir U U U From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive End of Conversation -- ONFIDEN'l'IAL CONPIDENThlt