fl' ' ' t LIMITED ACCESS 8863 THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON DECLASSIFIED PER E O 12958 ASAMENDED too'f- Ier6' - r fl MEMORANDUM OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATION - z -i z og SUBJECT Telcon with President Boris Yeltsin of Republic of Russia PARTICIPANTS The President Boris Yeltsin President of Republic of Russia Interpreter Dimitry Zarechnak Notetaker Ed A Hewett DATE TIME AND PLACE November 30 1991 9 42 - 10 19am Camp David President Yeltsin Hello The President Boris U Can you hear me U President Yeltsin · I hear you Mr President your voice U I'm happy to hear The President F rst I want to convey my personal greeting Then I want to give you comments on Ukraine so that there are no differences between us on this President Yeltsin First Mr President I want to ask did you see Kozyrev and did he pass my letter to you The President We had a very good visit I've studied the letter spelling out your aspirations for Russia I appreciate very much that detailed account Eer President Yeltsin I want to again confirm that we have made a final decision that o n December 16 we will take major steps in the reform We will b o ldly start the reform by freeing up most prices J fr'T The President That is a very courageous step I also noticed you felt you'd be able to create an economic community with equal rights for the Ukraine and other republics and a political union President Yeltsin OK let's talk about Ukraine Jre7' The President Let me walk through the talking points and then I would welco me your response and critique m SGR BT Declassify on OADR From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive 1 CRiiT SEQRE'l' President Yeltsin Please U The President First with relation to your response to Sunday's referendum We think there will be a strong vote for independence This will be a powerful signal from the people of Ukraine and really a celebration of the new atmosphere you created when you led the forces that put down the attempted coup My visit with Kozyrev was very good I assured him we don't want to support interactions that play into the hands of radicals in Russia or Ukraine tBt' We do think it would be a mistake to take actions that would appear to resist or somehow punish through economic sanctions this vote for independence We feel Ukrainian independence is inevitable and we regard it as a tribute to the defeat of the coup in which you played such a pivotal role We also think that the priority should be on making sure that independence advances the cause of peace freedom and democracy in Ukraine and in Russia k8t As we move towards recognition I want to be sure that the arrangements which emerge provide for collective central control over nuclear weapons a non-nuclear Ukraine which is signatory to the NPT respect for human rights with equal rights for minorities and implementation of existing treaties START CFE I have asked Jim Baker to send a special emissary to Kiev to begin discussions with the Ukrainian leadership ' 8-t I placed calls· to you and to Gorbachev and I just hung up with Gorbachev He says you intend to sit down with the newly-elected leadership soon -' st But we will be making a statement after the referendum that Pxplains our approach The statement will also note our desire to work closely with you and President Gorbachev It will not be recognition but rather a statement about independence We are also consulting with NATO allies to coordinate our approach to this new situation - r We believe that the links between Russia and Ukraine are strong A declaration of independence will not change that -SSGRET From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive I hope you understand that as a democratic nation we must support the will of the Ukrainian people But w want to do so in a way that encourages a peaceful transition to a new order built on a strong friendly Ukrainian-Russian relationship Those are the main points I am most anxious to get your very frank views on the U S position but mainly about how things will work out f-S ' President Yeltsin I understand Mr President your concerns over the situation now with our union Right now the draft union treaty has only seven states ready to sign up -- five islamic and two slavic Byelorussia and Russia That concerns me a great deal 8 r I will be very frank with you as always I believe that if Ukraine won't be in the union then this will be a rather weak union I told Gorbachev today and I said yesterday in a newspaper interview that if Ukraine will not join the Union then that is a problem for Russia Gorbachev is always telling me that he'll get together with Ukrainian leaders and they will sign the agreement But if the referendum shows that the majority of the people of Ukraine are for independence then that m ans that Ukrainians will not sign the treaty now in preparation for a Union of Sovereign States That would dramatically change the balance in the Union between slavic and islamic nations We can't have a situation where Russia and Byelorussia have two votes as slavic states against five for the Islamic nations fSJ Moreover after Russia Ukraine is the largest state and we've had good relations We don't want to lose those good relations we want them to develop 6'r' I told Gorbachev that I can't imagine a union without Ukraine Of course it is still early today to reach conclusions without the results of the referendum Si I agree that the U S -- which has always supported human rights the right to self-determination of people and democracy -- the U S cannot simply disregard the desires of a large people for independence · The process we followed in the Baltics where Russia and then the U S recognized independence -- when the Baltics logically asked for U S support supported democratic processes I think the new Ukrainian president will not begin negotiations with Gorbachev but will begin talks with Russia On nuclear weapons I agree that this is a truly necessary condition All four conditions -- I won't list them now but I remember them -- are important· But at the same time Russia cannot place similar requirements vis-a-vis Ukraine in the current context If Russia after the referendum if it is a positive outcome does not recognize the independence of Ukraine it will make eEGJ lii1' From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive 1 -eEGRST -oECRBlft relations with Ukraine difficult It will also create new pressures from extremists if we do not recognize J S So we believe it is more proper if people vote say 70% for independence that Russia should recognize the independence of Ukraine whether or not they've signed the pclitical union treaty 8-t The President Right away CU e wi l meet with the new president of Uuaine in t 1e beginning of December to diacuss the· principl es of rel ations batween Russia and Ukraine- We- need to· discuss · central control of strategic nuclear weapons the removal of nuclear weapons from ·Ukrainian territory even though this will cost R25 billion and require several years They have very modern installations there -- large silos - 8i' Of course we'll talk about Ukrainian acceptance of all international agreements regarding nuclear weapons We also want to have an agreement between ourselves on the size of military forces or national guards When I was in Germany I talked with Kohl about the possibility that perhaps the U S Germany and France along with the rsmainder of the G-7 could urge Ukraine to come to an agreement along the e lines Bat now I think that is totally useless it would only strengthen extremist groups Jr fr'rIf we don't recognize the independence of Ukraine even with conditions -- and the conditions you list are necessary -- that would have a very negative effect on democracy It would cause an uprising in extremist fcrces especially since Ukraine is willing to recognize all international agreements regarding human rights But you are right we cannot lose ties between Russia and Ukraine I am now thinking very hard with a very narrow circle of key advisors on how to preserve the union but also how not to lose relations with qkraine Our relations with Ukraine are more significant than those with central Asian republics which we feed all the time On the other hand we can't forget the Islamic fundamentalist factor Jrar In this difficult situation it is not easy to come up with an optimal solution In any event we need to await the results of the referendum We do need to recognize the independence of Ckraine •• ·- • • l ' l - From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive President· Yelt·s in Xes we· need- to do it immediately Otherwise our position is unneces sa r±ly - unclear speciall·y · since we are approaching the new ·year and a- new reform - Gorbachev· does not · know· about this He still thinks Ukra·ine will sigr 8t- SSQ RE lf ' · · I am asking you Mr President not to reveal the content of this discussion until the results of the referendum are publ lsh e d The President I give you my pledge President Yeltsin Russia's position OK ffl'r Are you satisfied with my explanation of 1rf 'f' The PFesident -Yes I assure you that we do not want to play into the hands of extremists in Russia or anywhere else 5 The President touch Of course U I appreciate this We should stay in close President Yeltsin Mr President I am glad to he - in contact by phone · I·assure you that right now we are beginning a serious reform which will radicalize Russia and make Russia the engine which will pull other republics along t e democratic path It begins December 16 and will be very difficult There will be critical moments where people could be out in the streets I hope we can count on the support of the G-7 during these critical moments - i1' I also want to say that I met with Gorbachev and leaders · of the union government on the budget since the budget is on the verge of• collapse The union has no money to pay for the army sc ience· culture or for others Russia on the other hand has a budget surplus So only Russia can save the entire country £ 11' We have agreed to create a consolidated Union Russia budget All republics have agreed to guarantee a credit which only Russia will give to the Union In this way we can support the Soviet Union so we won't be bankrupt in our obligations t-o the rest of the worid So Russia will transmit R60 billion to the union budget But all must fully understand that we cannot always be so altruistic · So in 1992 all republics must be responsible for their own affairs The transition to reform must be very severe and realistic We cannot allow a deficit of more than 4%-5% of the budget I was ·glad to talk to you on this of mutual consultations The President we We'll continue this practice certainly will and thank you Goodby Boris U President Yeltsin success U Thank you and I wish the American people End of Conversation QEQREf From the Nunn-Lugar collection of the National Security Archive Pre id nt Yeltsin