Record of the Main Content of Conversation between Gorbachev and Bush Paris November 19 1990 … Bush I think that the decision to award you the Nobel Peace Prize which was received very warmly in the United States also represents an expression of confidence that you would be able to find answers to all the hard questions that you are faced with … You are living through a difficult time Of course I don’t want to interfere in your internal affairs in any way but let me say this we will try to do all we can to help you in this difficult cause Gorbachev Thank you You are right when you say that we are living through a difficult time But it cannot be otherwise if we are really changing implementing cardinal transformation of our society There is no road back notwithstanding all the problems and underwater rocks that we discovered I constantly say to my colleagues and to our citizens we should look for answers to our problems by moving forward not by casting backward glances However the rate of transformation the speed of the movement the priorities-are a different issue Here one has to think Each country has its own priorities and even each of our republics differs from the others has its own distinctive features But we all must move forward in the understanding that we don’t have much time Henceforth--the need for decisive actions What is the utmost concern of our society right now First of all it is instability-economic political and in the interethnic sphere That is why people more and more express themselves in favor of stability for decisive actions of the authorities for strengthening of the government so that we do not lose everything that we achieved in the years of perestroika and the democratic reforms That is why to some extent sometimes we have to use methods resembling harsh administrative measures so that we do not allow the unfolding processes to turn to chaos Everybody had to turn to such methods at the sharp turns of history including President Roosevelt How did events unfold recently I was working on measures for transition to market economy stabilization of monetary-financial sphere speeding up the discussions of the union treaty and restructuring of the power structures But after the two-week parliamentary recess for the anniversary of the revolution the deputies came back from their electoral districts where constituents gave them some good thrashing and immediately they demanded to change the agenda of the Supreme Soviet and to discuss the issue of the situation in the country They stated that they wanted to hear the President and I agreed to speak to them on the next day My testimony contained an assessment of the situation and proposals about how to move forward The deputies agreed with my assessment but not quite with the proposals They saw them as insufficient After listening to them for the whole day I sensed that people wanted more decisive even harsh steps without waiting for the new union treaty or other decisions I already had ideas about what specifically had to be done but I thought I would introduce them a bit later But there I saw that I had to propose them now that I could not wait I worked all night on my speech where I presented eight points which we need to implement urgently One hundred fifty people signed up to speak You could feel great tension in the room I asked for the floor The room fell silent After I gave a short speech the room was silent at first and then broke in applause Bush We saw it on television It made a very good impression What will happen now Gorbachev We will be moving in the same direction as we did before but we will carry out serious organizational changes In essence we are talking about presidential rule a presidential system where executive power will be directly under the President’s control New structures will be created--economic political oversight--to ensure this Bush And what would Yeltsin’s place in this system be Would it strengthen your position in relation to the Russian republic Gorbachev You know in our society people are mainly in favor of political stabilization they reject those who rock the boat And one more thing--in all the republics people speak in favor of the union more and more decisively And people raise the question--what is preventing cooperation between Gorbachev and Yeltsin I answer them honestly--nothing is preventing it There is a great objective need for such cooperation now People tell us--if you cannot agree with each other you are not good for anything Yeltsin built his reputation on negativity People used to say--good job he criticizes Gorbachev himself However now he has power he has authority and accordingly responsibilities And people are asking what has changed And he continues to blame the Center for all the problems Bush As if he does not have to do anything himself Gorbachev I think the society must sort it out The strengthening of the presidential power is intended for stabilization of the situation in the country and circumscribing the opportunities for destructive forces The new government will comprise reasonable capable people regardless of any external circumstances I will try to include him Yeltsin in this process Unfortunately around him and also in the Moscow City Soviet and in Leningrad City Soviet there are many windbags who are not capable of doing anything If not for the Center’s assistance Moscow and Leningrad would be in trouble Bush For us it is hard to understand We have a clear division of powers between the center and the states We understand what you want to achieve to preserve order and unity which are necessary for the republics And when that man sends his foreign minister and trade delegations everywhere announcing that he couldn’t care less about the Center we just simply do not understand that Gorbachev I told him that he must state clearly his position regarding the preservation of our Union He then said that he had already spoken in that regard But I said that such a statement was necessary and finally he agreed and made an appropriate statement But double morality is unacceptable You cannot be saying one thing and doing another thing I think that those structural changes that we will implement will force him to define his position faster either we work together or one will have to leave And that’s what’s interesting as soon as I raised the issue of order and discipline in my speech literally on the next day Moscow stores started to fill up This means that there were manipulations actions by the mafia Now we will deal with it seriously As soon as we get home we intend to publish the draft of the Union Treaty which will delineate clearly the powers of the Center and the republics Bush The text of the speech prepared for me for this conference included references to Latvia Lithuania and Estonia However after I read the text I left out those references I understood that this could put you in an awkward situation As you know the United States had never recognized inclusion of those republics into the USSR And when you talk about preservation of the Union I recall Camp David where we discussed this question You said then that your Constitution provides for a possibility of an orderly transition to independence for republics And although I did not mention this issue in my speech I hope that you understand that we have many people of Baltic origin in the United States and we hope that you will be able to ensure orderly progress in the process of self-determination I repeat I understood your problems and I did not want to add to them from outside But we hope that it would be possible to find a way which would allow them to carry out such a process of self-determination What do you think about this Gorbachev Lately we have been consulting often and extensively about the Union treaty At the same time we started certain processes with the Baltics and the current situation there is quite interesting The situation there has worsened lately The positions of the existing authorities are in danger In Latvia and Lithuania the press launched a campaign of criticism They sharply criticize Landsbergis especially after he stated that he wants to get back his father’s property Peasants workers leading representatives of intelligentsia express sharp disapproval The president of the republican Academy of Sciences spoke out recently People tell the authorities it was better under the communists--and you are scroungers self-seekers you are good for nothing just grabbing cars dachas and other things Meanwhile even worse extremists people who collaborated with Hitler in their time and their children are lurking behind the backs of the present authorities All in all we have a lot of information that the situation there is close to an explosion Bush But isn’t it a fact that practically the entire population there is in favor of independence Or let’s put it this way--that the majority would like to see their republics independent sooner or later Gorbachev Not in a single republic does the leadership want to hold a referendum on this issue Not even in Lithuania where 80% of the population is Lithuanian Bush You mean they are not confident that everybody would support them Gorbachev Yes We will publish the draft of the Union treaty and when the treaty is ready the republics will sign it And then we will start a “divorce procedure” with those who will not sign Bush In the framework of your Constitution Gorbachev Precisely Bush Now I suggest we turn to the most difficult festering issue the situation in the Persian Gulf Jim Baker and Eduard Shevardnadze have been discussing this problem in depth You graciously received the Secretary of State in Moscow We take your position very seriously I understand your words that we need prudence patience and restraint A couple of days ago when I was Chancellor Kohl’s guest I visited his native town where you were recently And then I visited one of our military bases and looked into the eyes of our boys who are young enough to be our kids or grandkids And I thought how I wish they did not have to go into battle I think that you too when you took office had the same feeling when you looked at the young Soviet soldiers I need your help on this issue We have to get a U N resolution passed that would authorize the necessary measures namely the use of force in order to persuade Saddam Hussein that he must fulfill the demands of the United Nations Frankly speaking I do not see any other way to persuade him that he must do what the entire world demands of him We are dealing with a hard unpredictable person In terms of cruelty he is right up there with Hitler You know I got in trouble for comparing him to Hitler But looking at it even Hitler did not block foreign embassies and did not use people as human shields And when many American Jews said to me that one cannot compare Saddam to a person who was guilty of mass extermination of an entire nation I responded that today they surrounded the American Embassy tomorrow it might be somebody else’s embassy not even mentioning the hostages--here he does not show mercy to any country I want you to know in the United States right now the mood on this issue is not completely clear-cut But if you look at the opinion polls half of those who do not approve of my actions believe that I should have attacked earlier You add to those the 60% of Americans who support me and you see solid support But I do not want to use force However I came to the conclusion that such a resolution is necessary And thinking about how we want to build our relationship in the future I believe that your support would serve as strong proof of our partnership This is why I am asking you to help me And not even me so much--who knows in two years somebody else could become President I am asking you to help do what is just If you cannot give me your final answer right away I would be prepared to understand you but still please keep in mind that your answer is extremely important for us Our two countries were opponents but today we are working together If you cannot help me in this case we will still interact But I am asking you to help us send this signal to Saddam We believe that this would be sufficient to make Saddam do everything that is required of him I wanted to talk about this to you in private not in the presence of our colleagues for two reasons to pour out my heart to you and to avoid putting you in a situation where you would have to give a final answer right now Gorbachev I have thought it all over--our conversation with Baker and your letter Mr President This moment is exceptionally important not just for both of us but also for everything that we started to do in the world If we do not prove now that we are capable at this new stage of global development of dealing with this kind of problem it would mean that what we started does not mean all that much If you and I are not capable to stop aggression annexation blatant violation of international law it means that we are not doing what we should No we must prove the opposite and that means that we must find a solution to this problem This is first and most important Second Due to the choice that we made in the Soviet Union and I believe that you made a similar choice in the United States we do not want to see the United States and its President in a difficult critical situation And if in this situation we part our ways take separate roads that would mean that we have not achieved much in our relations Although of course in the future we will probably have differences and then we will have to sit down at a table and discuss them But in this case I am convinced we must stay together with you In my heart of hearts probably just like you I very much want to avoid blood avoid losses avoid American boys being killed because such bloodshed would be a blow against the U S President And it would also be very bad for regular Arabs That is why we prefer decisively that this settlement should be achieved without spilling blood And I start from the assumption that you are also in favor of this Because if the war starts it could be much worse than Vietnam This is the dilemma that we must resolve On the one hand--to try to avoid a military solution On the other--to undertake one more step that would increase the pressure on Saddam Hussein When I was talking with Jim in Moscow I implored him not to take the road of Article 51 of the U N Charter We have to determine clearly that we would be acting strictly with the U N framework This is very important Maybe for some part of the U S public opinion this is not so clear They may say why bother with the United Nations with the Security Council while Saddam Hussein is getting more insolent and is treating the United States like an insignificant state that can be forced to its knees But I think that the position that you and I took is the right and responsible position Thus after comprehensive thinking and analysis we came to the conclusion that we should agree to passing of a U N Security Council resolution We believe that this should be a two-tier resolution so to say that it should combine your proposal and mine The first part should contain essentially an ultimatum to Iraq to fulfill the U N resolutions But we will give him a deadline give him one last chance to change his mind In the second part it will say that in case this requirement is not fulfilled all appropriate measures could be taken to restore justice We agree that such a resolution should be passed while you still hold the chairmanship of the Security Council In addition we believe that during the period when the ultimatum is in force we need to undertake a number of steps I think our countries should find a possibility to meet with the Iraqi leadership at some level for example at the level of Foreign Ministers and present them with our demands you must leave Kuwait free the people otherwise the mechanism will be put into force which would truly put you on your knees Another option would be to send Peres de Quellar with this message as it was done during the Iran-Iraq war However this option appears to be weaker than the direct bilateral approach Bush This bilateral approach seems to me has big advantages What do you think should the term of the ultimatum be Gorbachev Let us say until the middle of January After that it would be permitted to use all appropriate means and there would be no need for passing one more resolution This would create a bridge to further actions and this decision would be made while the United States still holds the chairmanship of the Security Council About China’s position We see that the Chinese are starting to maneuver However I do not think that they would veto the proposed resolution Bush I think that if you and I take this approach then the Chinese will follow us You know that we have problems with the Chinese but we start from the assumption that the Chinese do not want to be in isolation Gorbachev It seems to me that you should lift the sanctions against China Bush There are some legal problems here I vetoed the congressional resolutions directed against China And so far I was able to defend my position In general I agree with you but in our crazy system … Gorbachev Now not only yours Bush In any case if you are talking with the Chinese tell them that our administration is persistently aspiring to normalize relations Cooperation in the U N framework will allow us to do even more in this direction I highly appreciate the position that you presented I am very happy that we are coming to an agreement We will act tactfully so that we can take your considerations into account as we develop the draft resolution Such a resolution formulated appropriately will become a powerful signal and will allow us to save people’s lives lives of American soldiers I do not want war Gorbachev I think that such a two-tier resolution in combination with our additional steps will force Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait As far as the actual language is concerned I think that we should not use the words “military force” in the resolution And Shevardnadze and Baker should discuss which concrete steps we would undertake so that we would not be just sitting there with our hands in our laps Besides I think we should restrain all kinds of travelers and make sure the Iraqis understand that they will have to deal only with those who adopted the U N resolutions Bush As far as military force is concerned it must be clear from the formulation that it is not excluded To tell you the truth I am not a lawyer and I do not understand clearly what is the difference between the words “necessary” and “appropriate” measures Gorbachev Formulations should be such that Saddam would understand everything Bush Thank you I am very grateful to you for your position What are we going to tell the press Gorbachev I think that first of all we should confirm our line based on principle The aggression must be repelled and we intend to achieve this acting within the framework of the United Nations of its Security Council Bush What are we going to say specifically about our conversation Gorbachev We carried out a very serious exchange of opinions analyzed the situation and came to the conclusion that our common approach has been and remains correct We agreed that we should keep working together in the future working within the framework of the U N Security Council in such a way that the aggressor does not get any leniency or reward We came to the conclusion that in the nearest future the situation should be addressed again in the framework of the U N Security Council And we don’t have to mention the resolution yet Bush I agree I would like to say a couple of words about the conversation that you had with Jim Baker in Moscow As far as I understand you might soon need urgent assistance with food products and medicines I am fully and wholeheartedly in favor of providing such assistance I want you to know this If need arises we will be ready to act Gorbachev Thank you Mr President Bush Now I think we can join our colleagues tell them about the results of our conversation and end this evening with a friendly dinner Source Gorbachev Foundation Archive Fond 1 opis 1 Published in Sobranie sochinenii vol 23 p 176-181 Translated by Svetlana Savranskaya