2020 ELECTION SECURITY—PERSPECTIVES FROM VOTING SYSTEM VENDORS AND EXPERTS HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION JANUARY 9 2020 Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING Available on the Internet http www govinfo gov committee house-administration VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00001 Fmt 6011 Sfmt 6011 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 2020 ELECTION SECURITY—PERSPECTIVES FROM VOTING SYSTEM VENDORS AND EXPERTS VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00002 Fmt 6019 Sfmt 6019 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 2020 ELECTION SECURITY—PERSPECTIVES FROM VOTING SYSTEM VENDORS AND EXPERTS HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION JANUARY 9 2020 Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration Available on the Internet http www govinfo gov committee house-administration U S GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE WASHINGTON tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 41–318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00003 Fmt 5011 2020 Sfmt 5011 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING ZOE LOFGREN California Chairperson JAMIE RASKIN Maryland RODNEY DAVIS Illinois SUSAN A DAVIS California Ranking Member G K BUTTERFIELD North Carolina MARK WALKER North Carolina MARCIA L FUDGE Ohio BARRY LOUDERMILK Georgia PETE AGUILAR California II VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00004 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 5904 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 CONTENTS JANUARY 9 2020 Page 2020 Election Security—Perspectives From Voting System Vendors and Experts 1 OPENING STATEMENTS Chairperson Zoe Lofgren Prepared statement of Chairperson Lofgren Hon Rodney Davis Ranking Member Prepared statement of Ranking Member Davis 1 3 5 7 WITNESSES Tom Burt President and CEO Election Systems Software Prepared statement of Mr Burt John Poulos President and CEO Dominion Voting Systems Prepared statement of Mr Poulos Julie Mathis President and CEO Hart InterCivic Prepared statement of Ms Mathis Liz Howard Counsel Brennan Center for Justice Prepared statement of Ms Howard Matt Blaze Professor of Law Georgetown University Law Center Prepared statement of Mr Blaze Juan Gilbert Ph D Banks Family Preeminence Endowed Professor University of Florida Prepared statement of Dr Gilbert Rev T Anthony Spearman President North Carolina NAACP Prepared statement of Rev Spearman Hon Don Palmer Commissioner Election Assistance Commission Prepared statement of Hon Palmer Michael C Gianasi County Clerk and Recorder Christian County Illinois Prepared statement of Mr Gianasi 10 13 22 24 28 30 66 68 120 122 138 140 158 160 166 168 172 174 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD Tom Burt President and CEO Election Systems Software answers to submitted questions John Poulos President and CEO Dominion Voting Systems answers to submitted questions III VerDate Sep 11 2014 05 11 Nov 25 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00005 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 0484 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 182 216 IV Page Julie Mathis President and CEO Hart InterCivic answers to submitted questions Liz Howard Counsel Brennan Center for Justice answers to submitted questions Matt Blaze Professor of Law Georgetown University Law Center answers to submitted questions 1 Juan Gilbert Ph D Banks Family Preeminence Endowed Professor University of Florida answers to submitted questions Rev T Anthony Spearman President North Carolina NAACP answers to submitted questions Hon Don Palmer Commissioner Election Assistance Commission answers to submitted questions 237 269 281 284 286 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD Securing the Vote Protecting American Democracy The National Academies of Sciences Engineering Medicine a Consensus Study Report Electronic Privacy Information Center Letter tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 1 Mr VerDate Sep 11 2014 04 59 Nov 25 2020 291 472 Blaze did not answer submitted questions for the record by the time of printing Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00006 Fmt 5904 Sfmt 0484 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 2020 ELECTION SECURITY—PERSPECTIVES FROM VOTING SYSTEM VENDORS AND EXPERTS tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING THURSDAY JANUARY 9 2020 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION Washington DC The Committee met pursuant to call at 10 03 a m in Room 1310 Longworth House Office Building Hon Zoe Lofgren Chairperson of the Committee presiding Present Representatives Lofgren Raskin Davis of California Butterfield Fudge Aguilar Davis of Illinois and Walker Staff Present Sean Jones Legislative Clerk Jamie Fleet Staff Director Mariam Malik Staff Assistant Hannah Carr Staff Assistant Stephen Spaulding Elections Counsel Georgina Cannan Elections Counsel Peter Whippy Communications Director Eddie Flaherty Chief Clerk David Tucker Senior Counsel and Parliamentarian Courtney Parella Minority Communications Director Jen Daulby Minority Staff Director Cole Felder Minority General Counsel Tim Monahan Minority Deputy Staff Director and Nick Crocker Minority Director Member Services The CHAIRPERSON Welcome everybody and good morning We are waiting for Committee Members to arrive any moment but while we are waiting we will begin with our opening statements I would like to note that our Committee is charged with overseeing the administration of Federal elections Today’s hearing will help us fulfill that responsibility by providing an opportunity to hear from the vendors of most of our country’s voting systems This is the first time the Chief Executive Officers of the three major vendors have appeared together in a congressional hearing The companies they represent provide at least 80 percent of the estimated 350 000 voting machines in use today reaching over 100 million registered voters However despite their outsized role in the mechanics of our democracy some have accused these companies of obfuscating and in some cases misleading election administrators and the American public Others suggest there is an insufficient regulatory structure for this sector In the Committee’s May 2019 hearing on election security Lawrence Norden of the Brennan Center for Justice wrote in his testimony that and I quote ‘‘there are more Federal regulations for ballpoint pens and magic markers than there are for voting systems and other parts of our election infrastructure ’’ There may be 1 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00007 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 2 more work to do and much for Congress to learn about this industry Many have concerns about voting systems with remote access software and I think we want to make sure that companies no longer sell voting machines that have network capabilities In 2019 according to a report in Motherboard a group of election security experts they uncovered that backend election systems in at least 10 states were connected to the internet despite one company’s claim that its systems were not We need also to understand supply chains In December 2019 a study released by Enteros a supply chain monitoring company showed that one-fifth or 20 percent of the components in a popular voting machine came from China-based companies Furthermore close to two-thirds or actually 59 percent of suppliers within that machine’s supply chain had locations in either China or Russia Enteros didn’t name the vendor that manufactured the voting machine but said that it was widely used I have also heard concerns about the ownership and control of voting machine vendors Public reporting indicates that all three of the major voting system vendors represented here today are privately held or are partially controlled by private equity firms I believe it is in the public interest for Congress to better understand who could financially benefit from the administration of our elections There are also of course threats to our voting infrastructure We learned in Special Counsel Mueller’s report that Russia intelligence officers targeted employees of a voting technology company that developed software to manage voter rolls and installed malware on the company network We also know that our own voluntary voting system guidelines have not been substantially updated since 2005 before the iPhone was even available It then took the EAC another decade to make small changes which were adopted in 2015 almost 5 years ago So there is more we have to do together to bolster public confidence and trust in our election systems That is why this Congress has acted Last June the House passed H R 2722 the SAFE Act that would require individual durable voter verified paper ballots It would require strict cyber security standards It would require risk-limiting audits prohibit wireless and internet connectivity and create accountability mechanisms for election technology vendors The bill awaits consideration in the Senate Just last month Congress appropriated $425 million to the States to improve election security This builds on the $380 million Congress appropriated in 2018 Securing our elections should not be a partisan issue Election security is about upholding a democracy of by and for the people the American people be they Republican Democratic third party or no party at all Our democracy is resilient but it relies on everyone having their vote counted as cast I now recognize our Ranking Member Mr Davis for any opening statement he may wish to make The statement of The Chairperson follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00008 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00009 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 01 here 41318A 001 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 3 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00010 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6633 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 02 here 41318A 002 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 4 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 5 Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you Madam Chairperson Especially also thank you for holding this necessary long overdue hearing that I’ve been looking forward to since the beginning of this Congress I also want to thank all of our witnesses for taking the time to be here today to discuss the very important issues regarding elections and election security and elections administration My agenda since becoming the Ranking Member of this Committee has been and continues to be focused on nonpartisan and effective oversight of our Nation’s elections which are maintained by the States not the Federal Government But that does not mean that this Committee and the House itself does not have an important oversight role to play in securing elections Our witnesses here today have state county and local jurisdictions as clients who know their electorate best We also have witnesses who have experience with running those elections but we know that threats from foreign actors to our Nation’s elections are not going away It should be noted from the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on the 2016 election there were quote ‘‘no indications that votes were changed vote tallying systems were manipulated or that any voter registration data was altered or deleted ’’ by Russia or any foreign actor DHS Assistant Secretary Jeanette Manfra said in the Senate Intel’s opening hearing in June of 2017 that quote ‘‘we do not— we do have confidence in the overall integrity of our electoral system because our voting infrastructure is fundamentally resilient ’’ While we have faith in the electoral system we still have a responsibility to strengthen the relationship between States and the Federal Government to ensure that Americans’ votes are and will continue to be protected There has been some disagreement with my colleagues across the aisle on how best to accomplish this mission but I believe our goal is the same Instead of getting into a long-winded debate today between paper versus electronic State versus Federal let’s instead focus our efforts on areas within our Federal reach that need improvement areas where we may come to a bipartisan agreement as we have seen in this Committee and many times in the past This Committee created and passed the Help America Vote Act of 2002 HAVA which provided much-needed funds to states so that they could update their election security and voting infrastructure and created the Election Assistance Commission or EAC One notable requirement of HAVA was for the EAC to create a set of specifications and requirements against which voting systems can be tested called the Voluntary Voting Systems Guideline or VVSG The EAC adopted the first VVSG in December of 2005 and approved an updated version VVSG 1 1 in January of 2016 Now we are currently waiting for the EAC to produce the newest guidelines the VVSG 2 0 This year our Committee should hold a hearing with the EAC to discuss this voting guideline development process and several other processes within our jurisdiction Perhaps we should not only focus on the EAC but instead HAVA itself The Help America Vote Act was originally created in 2002 following the 2000 Presidential election and its many issues VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00011 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 6 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING with paper ballots and ballot marking devices much like we will be discussing today There have been many developments in voting systems technology that are not addressed in the original HAVA language like e-pollbooks and securing online registration databases It has been almost 20 years since this law has been updated and with the recent developments in election security and technology it is time to modernize these laws again and incentivize new more secure infrastructure development from vendors like each of you Also let’s recognize the steps we have taken this Congress alone to secure our elections As Chairperson Lofgren said the Fiscal Year 2020 National Defense Authorization recently enacted last month contained several provisions related to election security Most involved providing Congress Federal or State agencies with information about election interference something that was in the election security bill I introduced H R 3412 the Election Security Assistance Act It also requires the Director of National Intelligence in coordination with several other agencies to develop a strategy for countering Russian cyberattacks against U S elections another provision I had in my bill In addition to the NDAA the recent appropriations as Chairperson Lofgren said included $425 million for payments to States territories and the District of Columbia to make general improvements to the administration of Federal elections including upgrades to election technology and security Much has been done but we still have much to do which is why you are all here with us today A fundamental right of our Nation’s ability is to choose our leaders The American people deserve that right to be protected We should secure and protect our Nation’s elections without partisan politics and I hope we can remember that not only during this hearing but also for the duration of this Congress Thank you Madam Chairperson I yield back The statement of Mr Davis of Illinois follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00012 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00013 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 03 here 41318A 010 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 7 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00014 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 04 here 41318A 011 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 8 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00015 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 05 here 41318A 422 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 9 10 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you The gentleman yields back All other Members are invited to submit an opening statement for the record without objection At this point I would like to welcome our witnesses Thank you for being here today Joining us are the President and CEO of Election Systems Software Mr Tom Burt President and CEO of Dominion Voting Systems Mr John Poulos and President and CEO of Hart InterCivic Julie Mathis I would like to introduce each of the witnesses First Mr Burt Tom Burt became President and CEO of Elections Systems Software in 2015 He joined E S in 2008 leading sales customer services operations and the product departments Before joining ES S Mr Burt developed his general management and sales leadership at McMaster Carr a supply company and Anderson Consulting where he served in a variety of executive management roles John Poulos is the founding President and CEO of Dominion In this role he leads the company’s overall business strategy and operations Since its inception in 2003 Dominion has grown to support over 1 200 jurisdictions across North America He holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in electrical engineering from the University of Toronto as well as a Master’s of Business Administration degree from INSEAD Fontainebleau France Julie Mathis joined Hart in 2014 but became its CEO just 9 days ago so congratulations She has previously served as President and CFO of the company Prior to joining Hart she served as Vice President of finance at Dell Ms Mathis holds a Bachelor of Business Administration degree in accounting from the University of Texas at Austin and is a Certified Public Accountant I would at this point ask unanimous consent that all Members have 5 legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and their written statements be made part of the record And without objection that is so ordered I would also like to remind witnesses that their entire written statements will be made part of the record and that the record will remain open for at least five days for additional materials to be submitted At this point I would ask each of the witnesses to stand and raise their right hand Witnesses sworn The CHAIRPERSON The record will reflect that all three witnesses answered in the affirmative We will first recognize you Mr Burt for your testimony TESTIMONY OF TOM BURT PRESIDENT AND CEO ELECTION SYSTEMS SOFTWARE OMAHA NEBRASKA JOHN POULOS PRESIDENT AND CEO DOMINION VOTING SYSTEMS DENVER COLORADO AND JULIE MATHIS PRESIDENT AND CEO HART INTERCIVIC AUSTIN TEXAS tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF TOM BURT Mr BURT Thank you VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00016 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 11 Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and Members of the House Administration Committee thank you for the opportunity to testify on the vitally important subject of election security My name is Tom Burt and I am CEO of Elections Systems Software I’m encouraged to see the growing attention to stronger security for elections and I’m thankful for the additional recent funding to the States provided by Congress under your leadership Founded 40 years ago ES S’ headquarters are in Omaha Nebraska where roughly half of our 490 employees live and work Others live locally in or near the States where we provide products and services including employees who reside in California Georgia Illinois Maryland North Carolina and Ohio Let me be clear and unequivocal with you ES S is committed to doing everything we can to safeguard our Nation’s election security It is what every one of our employees wakes up and goes to bed thinking about For us every single day is election day Additionally I want to make clear that ES S strongly supports Federal mandates for the following three policies first an auditable paper record for every vote cast second post-election audits of these paper records and third more rigorous standards for the programmatic security testing of voting equipment by a federally controlled regulatory body I’d like to elaborate on a few of the many examples ES S has raised—ways that ES S has raised the bar on itself for election security and called on Congress to raise the bar on the entire industry First as mentioned it is important that an auditable paper trail be required for every vote cast ES S has stopped selling new voting machines that do not produce an auditable paper record at the primary voting device Second we support and applaud the increase in dedicated resources coming from Congress State and local officials the Election Assistance Commission and the Department of Homeland Security We embrace our partnerships with these bodies because we believe that collectively we can provide necessary and continuous improvement in election security While the recent appropriations bill included additional electionsrelated funding from Congress we believe the Federal Government needs to devote these resources to State and local jurisdictions on an annual basis Third I’d like to highlight just a few of the many important steps ES S takes to bolster election security Every ES S system we field undergoes rigorous testing by independent Federal test labs accredited by NIST Since 2009 ES S has certified 22 unique voting system releases through this Federal testing program Our standard procedure is to conduct thorough and pervasive penetration testing of our hardware and software using the same modern security tools that hackers use to make sure our equipment is secure before it ever enters the Federal program We recommend increased EAC funding for security testing managed at the Federal level with standards and testing methods that are applied evenly and comprehensively to all providers All ES S tabulation firmware and software are not only housed domestically but are also written exclusively inside the United States ES S engages an independent third party to regularly test VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00017 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 12 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING samples of the components inside our voting equipment that are programmable logic devices We do this to validate the security of our supply chain and to ensure that no backdoor tampering has occurred ES S voting machine components are produced in ISO 9001 certified manufacturing facilities and the entire voting system is managed by a secure engineering change order control process All final hardware configuration of our voting machines is performed exclusively in Omaha Nebraska We are working with our fellow industry providers seated with me here today to create the Nation’s first coordinated vulnerability disclosure program for elections equipment designed to provide for even greater independent testing of voting systems through the use of ethical hackers Because we strive for continuous improvement in all facets of our business our actions related to election security are continuous ongoing and dynamic Finally I want to be clear that we do not believe we are perfect On rare occasions machines falter and humans make mistakes When these circumstances arise we always do everything possible to remedy the issue and ensure that final election reports—results are reported accurately As I noted previously we strongly urge Congress to require an auditable paper record for every vote cast as a matter of law to improve even more the integrity of our elections While we are very proud of the actions we have taken to date in support of safe and secure elections we recognize that this is a race that has no finish line ES S is committed to continually enhancing the security of our products for the long run We take nothing more seriously than our role in supporting our Nation’s democracy Thank you for your time and I look forward to your questions The statement of Mr Burt follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00018 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00019 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 31 here 41318a 012 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 13 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00020 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 32 here 41318a 013 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 14 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00021 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 33 here 41318a 014 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 15 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00022 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 34 here 41318a 015 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 16 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00023 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 35 here 41318a 016 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 17 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00024 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 36 here 41318a 017 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 18 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00025 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 37 here 41318a 018 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 19 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00026 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 38 here 41318a 019 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 20 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00027 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 39 here 41318a 020 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 21 22 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much We’d be pleased to hear from you Mr Poulos tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF JOHN POULOS Mr POULOS Thank you very much Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and distinguished Members of the Committee thank you for the opportunity to testify today My name is John Poulos and I’m the Chief Executive Officer of Dominion Voting Systems We are a U S -owned company that currently provides voting systems and services to jurisdictions across 30 States and Puerto Rico I agree with the importance of this—of the issues being raised by the Chairperson and Ranking Member regarding election security and integrity at today’s hearing American elections safeguard and preserve the freedoms and rights guaranteed by the U S Constitution At Dominion we take pride in our small role in assuring voters that they can have confidence in election results We go to work every day understanding this important responsibility By way of background I formed the company with my partners in 2003 as an engineer and entrepreneur living in Silicon Valley We were one of 76 new entrants innovating in the post-HAVA era and we are one of the only ones independently operating of those 76 in the industry today Dominion was founded on three key pillars security transparency and accessibility The company abides by these principles to this day driving innovations and advancements for auditability and resilience directed by Federal State and local election officials Supporting elections is a full-time proposition for our company This past year alone Dominion assisted State and local election officials in conducting nearly 300 elections complete with the rigorous public scrutiny that comes with it Dominion is constantly innovating and certifying enhancements and new features per State and local requirements For 2020 we have been working closely with jurisdictions seeking to upgrade their voting systems Older end-of-life technology is being replaced with certified solutions that produce paper records for auditing and resilience This comports with recommendations by DHS Consistent with our founding tenets Dominion works hard to promote a company culture of security This starts with our people including annual mandatory background checks and cybersecurity awareness training for every employee in the company It includes companywide adoption of advanced digital protections and a defense-in depth approach to cybersecurity Moreover we actively engage with the EAC DHS and other trusted third parties to maintain and enhance our enterprise security including potential supply chain risks Finally we meet all independent testing requirements including EAC standards developed in conjunction with NIST and requirements set forth by individual States This includes source code reviews penetration testing and post-election audits In terms of transparency Dominion systems fully support independent third-party audits and reviews of all election data For example in 2018 the State of Colorado used Dominion systems in VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00028 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 23 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING conducting the first statewide risk-limiting audit in the United States This effort was so successful it has become a benchmark for other States in verifying with high confidence that equipment tallies are accurate and reliable To round out our company mission we are committed to voter accessibility Our systems ensure Federal protections for privacy and equal voting rights and ballot casting options for all including American servicemembers abroad The existence of nation-state threats means that we must actively defend against any attempts to undermine faith in our democratic institutions In this regard we hope to see Congress continuing its work with State and local election officials to keep election systems secure We commend Congress on its bipartisan investment of an additional $425 million to help election officials modernize their infrastructure In closing we remain fully committed to providing technology that supports free and fair elections This includes support for an industry wide coordinated vulnerability disclosure program for voting systems We urge you to continue supporting and incentivizing real-time threat information sharing from the intelligence community streamline certification options for patching and updating and reliable baseline security standards for voting systems All of these efforts will help make the voting process more secure Thank you again for the opportunity to share our company’s perspective The statement of Mr Poulos follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00029 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00030 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 43 here 41318a 021 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 24 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00031 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 44 here 41318a 022 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 25 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00032 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 45 here 41318a 023 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 26 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00033 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 46 here 41318a 024 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 27 28 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you so much for your testimony And now our final witness on this panel Ms Mathis We’d be pleased to hear from you for five minutes tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF JULIE MATHIS Ms MATHIS Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and Members of the Committee thank you for the opportunities to speak with you today My name is Julie Mathis and I’m the CEO of Hart InterCivic Hart InterCivic is based in Austin Texas where we have been located since our inception over a hundred years ago Hart began as a paper ballot printer and over the past 20 years has grown organically one new customer at a time to become one of the top three voting system providers in the country Our customers are local election officials and our business is built on partnering with them every day to help solve their problems enhance their processes and ensure they deliver secure accessible and transparent elections Our products include the software and devices that these election officials use to create ballots capture votes tabulate votes and audit the results Our systems are regulated as each is submitted to Federal certification through the EAC as well as the State certification processes before any local jurisdiction purchases them It’s also important to know which aspects of the election ecosystem Hart does not serve Hart does not build the products that manage voter registration voter check-in at the polling place the public recording of election night results or any other aspect of election or data administration These aspects of the election system and their vendors are not currently regulated I am in Washington D C this morning because Hart strongly believes that voting system companies are one of the many critical players ensuring American elections are accessible transparent and secure I can tell you much has improved over the past few years for Hart and for the industry but we know that challenges remain and we must continue to evolve and adapt So what has improved First what has improved as a company is our products We are proud that our Verity voting system is one of the newest and we believe most secure line of election products on the market Rather than patch updates on older technology Verity is a wholly new product designed from its core to meet modern security standards Verity’s robust security strategy is further described in my written testimony Second what has improved as an industry The election industry is far better informed better supported and more agile when it comes to cybersecurity threats as a direct result of the Department of Homeland Security’s designation of the American election system as critical infrastructure Because of that designation we’re a founding member of DHS’ Sector Coordinating Council a group of diverse elections-related vendors under DHS’ stewardship to address resilience policies and practices Similarly we’re a founding and engaged member of the ICS-ISAC as well as an active member of the EI-ISAC All offer a range of valuable programs free assessments and educational materials but the biggest improvements have been to our ability to community and coordinate around cyber threat information and disclosures VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00034 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 29 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING So where else can we all continue to evolve and adapt Number one continual evolution of the voting system guidelines We strongly support the process to roll out updated national standards We have submitted our comments during the public comment period draft of the draft VVSG 2 0 and are in regular communication with the EAC to provide further insights to inform the new standard We share your frustration over the slow adoption of the new standards yet Hart has proactively enhanced the security of our products while awaiting the release of the 2 0 standards In addition we encourage Congress and the EAC to continue to explore ways to apply Federal oversight to other election technology especially areas of higher vulnerability such as voter registration electronic pollbooks and election night results reporting Number two speed up the Federal certification process at the EAC We are optimistic that Congress’ recent increase in funding may allow additional resources to be dedicated to the ongoing overhaul of the VVSG and to enhance certification of resources at the EAC The more resources and funding that Congress can dedicate to the EAC and NIST the sooner we will be able to bring the next generation of products to market Number three ongoing vigilance over cybersecurity practices within our companies and within local jurisdictions The most important shift in institutional attitudes towards securing the integrity of election systems is that security is not a static process At Hart we recognize that cybersecurity threats will evolve and so we along with local jurisdictions must continually adjust to new risks and adapt with new technology new processes and new policies In conclusion much has improved over the last few years Not only are there new products on the market with enhanced security protocols but the election industry is much better informed more coordinated and more aware But this enhanced awareness also highlights the clarity that securing the American election system is a race with no finish line It will take constant vigilance funding partnership and coordination across all aspects of the election ecosystem to ensure that elections are secure each and every year At Hart our goal is and always has been to provide election officials with accessible and secure technology We dedicate significant time and resources ensuring our products meet or exceed the latest security standards And because of this we are a trusted partner of the local officials who run elections in our country Thank you and I look forward to answering any questions you may have The statement of Ms Mathis follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00035 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00036 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 51 here 41318A 025 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 30 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00037 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 52 here 41318A 026 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 31 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00038 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 53 here 41318A 027 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 32 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00039 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 54 here 41318A 028 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 33 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00040 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 55 here 41318A 029 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 34 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00041 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 56 here 41318A 030 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 35 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00042 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 57 here 41318A 031 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 36 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 37 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much and thanks to all of our witnesses for your verbal testimony as well as your written testimony We’ll now go to the time in our hearing where Members have an opportunity to ask questions for as long as five minutes and I’ll start We all know and recognize that concern about election security has been heightened since the 2016 election—we’ve had reports from our intelligence community that we should be on the alert for threats especially foreign threats to the security of our systems Right now there are no Federal reporting requirements that mandate disclosure of crucial information about some of your key business practices or experiences And I’d like to know from each of you and this is going to be a yes-or-no question would you support requirements concerning the following five items first your cybersecurity practices including incident response procedures two any cyberattacks you’ve experienced three personnel policies and procedures including whether background checks and other procedures are in place to safeguard against inside attacks four details of corporate ownership and foreign investment and finally supply chains for example where parts software patches installations come from how they’re transported and how they are kept secure Would you—if you could answer whether you would agree to all or if there are some that you would object to why Mr BURT Madam Chairperson I would say yes that we would support a requirement for all five of those requirements that you listed The CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr POULOS Madam Chairperson we would agree with that as well The CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms MATHIS As would we The CHAIRPERSON That’s very helpful As you know we have passed a pretty robust bill in the House that’s pending in the Senate and perhaps your testimony will encourage them to move forward I’d like to talk about supply chains As I mentioned in my opening statement the concern has been raised about components The Enteros report showed that a majority of suppliers within a widely used voting machine supply chain had locations in either Russia or China They didn’t indicate which company So I’d like to ask each of you Do you have components in your supply chain that come from either Russia or China Mr BURT Madam Chairperson we do not have components that come from Russia We do have a limited number of components that come from China The CHAIRPERSON What percentage would that be Mr BURT I can’t give you a percentage but with respect to this issue the potential for a backdoor threat really doesn’t pertain to inert items like a piece of plastic or a piece of metal What we really should be concerned about are the programmable logic devices The CHAIRPERSON What type of components come from China Can you tell me the nature of the components VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00043 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 38 Mr BURT Sure I’ll give you one example Our DS200 which is a—— The CHAIRPERSON Well no I don’t want examples Do any of your chips or software come from China or are the Chinese components just pieces of plastic Mr BURT In our DS200 we have one of the nine programmable logic devices that we actually source from a U S company based in Milpitas California in the heart of Silicon Valley that produces that programmable logic device in a—in a factory in China The CHAIRPERSON Okay Thank you Mr POULOS Thank you for the question It wasn’t our company in Enteros’ report but we do have components in our products that come from China and I don’t know the exact percentage I can certainly get that to the Committee through my staff Happy to work with you on getting the exact number Our products—our tabulated products have always been manufactured in the United States and so if you look at—— The CHAIRPERSON Well can you—before you go forward what are the components that you get from China Mr POULOS So for example LCD components the actual glass screen on the interface down to the chip component level of capacitors and resistors Several of those components to our knowledge are not even—there’s no option for manufacturing of those in the United States We would welcome guidelines and best practices from the Committee and from the Federal Government in terms of this is not a problem that’s unique to the election industry The CHAIRPERSON Thank you Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Yes Similar feedback here We take the security of our supply chain very seriously and we actively monitor and assess all aspects of that supply chain including country of origin The CHAIRPERSON So do you have components from China or Russia Ms MATHIS We do not have components from Russia but we do have—similar to my colleagues we do have components from China The CHAIRPERSON And what would be the nature of those components Ms MATHIS Similar resistors capacitors They’re the global supply chain for technology components for that—— The CHAIRPERSON And what percentage do you know Ms MATHIS I don’t have that The CHAIRPERSON We’ll follow up with that I’ll turn now to Mr Davis for his five minutes Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you Madam Chairperson and thank you again to the witnesses who are here Each of you just a simple yes or a no Is there any method of voting that’s a hundred percent secure Mr BURT No Mr POULOS No Ms MATHIS No Mr DAVIS of Illinois To your knowledge has a foreign state ever successfully breached or hacked any of your vote tallying election machines Mr Burt VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00044 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 39 Mr BURT No Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Poulos Mr POULOS No Ms MATHIS No Mr DAVIS of Illinois What then was the primary target of our foreign adversaries in the 2016 election Mr Burt Mr BURT Well Ranking Member I think there are potentially differing public views on that but what I can say is that as you asked a minute ago we’ve seen no evidence that any of our voting systems have been tampered with in any way Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Poulos Mr POULOS I would agree with that statement We feel the same way I can’t speak to what the primary purpose was of the attacks but there’s to our knowledge no evidence on our systems as well Mr DAVIS of Illinois Well you guys already answered that Ms Mathis do you know what was attacked during 2016 Ms MATHIS I do not have personal awareness of that Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay I believe reports say there were centralized voter registration systems even one in my home State of Illinois Where do these centralized State voter registration system databases come from Mr BURT Ranking Member they—it’s various depending on—— Mr DAVIS of Illinois Do they come from any of your companies Mr BURT We do host voter registration systems for a limited number of States yes The CHAIRPERSON How about you Mr Poulos Mr POULOS We do not Ms MATHIS We do not Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay They’re actually a requirement in the Help America Vote Act And also Mr Burt to your knowledge are there any parameters within HAVA that require basic security around the State voter registration databases Mr BURT I believe the language in HAVA as it relates to voter registration is limited at best and I’m not aware offhand of any specific language that pertains to—— Mr DAVIS of Illinois Great And I’ll stick with you because you’re the only one that actually deals with centralized voter registration and the other two do not Do you find this concerning and believe it’s something that we should address in HAVA Mr BURT I do I think it’s a gap in the oversight of the election administration or Election Assistance Commission and I believe you could put electronic pollbooks into the same bucket with voter registration Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Are you members of the Sector Coordinating Council Mr POULOS Yes Ms MATHIS Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay As well as the IT–ISAC and the EI– ISAC Mr BURT Yes Mr POULOS Yes VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00045 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 40 Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay How have these entities increased vulnerability disclosure Mr Burt Mr BURT You know prior to 2016 there was virtually no communication between vendors and those entities and there is regular sharing of information threat information as well as routine meetings many face-to-face to make sure that the lines of communication are open at all times Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Mr Poulos how many different vulnerability disclosure programs are there currently Mr POULOS To my knowledge we’re part of one and currently working on several more with my colleagues here to create further disclosure programs Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Ms Mathis how do we ensure that these new programs are adequate to disseminate known vulnerabilities to those that need to know Ms MATHIS I think it’s important that we continue to work together with cybersecurity experts that have already been involved through the designation as critical infrastructure It’s really assisted us with ensuring that we understand kind of the appropriate disclosures Mr DAVIS of Illinois Would you all agree that there are a lot more people both in the media and public interest groups and Congress for that matter writing on the topic of election security since the 2016 election Mr BURT Yeah Mr DAVIS of Illinois Would you all agree Mr POULOS Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois I’m actually happy for this increased attention I believe it’s put an important issue to the forefront I’m concerned about the incentive for outside groups to mischaracterize the threats facing our elections Is this a concern that each of you share Mr POULOS Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois I got one yes Mr BURT Yes Ms MATHIS Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you I didn’t think C–SPAN could see you guys nodding your heads Ms MATHIS Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois Over the past several years DEFCON has garnered a lot of publicity Have any of you reached out to DEFCON to participate Mr BURT Ranking Member we have had discussions with them but we have not provided our equipment to them for testing Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Ranking Member we reached out to DEFCON this year in 2019 interested in a more collaborative penetration testing with stakeholders We reached out with one organizer and had a plan We actually did send our modern certified equipment to DEFCON but in the days leading up to that event I think that there was an internal disagreement within the conference So we ended up not working at that conference but if it’s—— Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00046 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 41 Mr POULOS continuing Not DEFCON we’re committed to that Mr DAVIS of Illinois How about you Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS We have actually submitted our systems through the DHS’ penetration testing process through Idaho National Labs so we’ve—we’ve gone that route Mr DAVIS of Illinois But not DEFCON Ms MATHIS Not DEFCON Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Thank you I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman yields back I now recognize the gentleman from Maryland Mr Raskin for five minutes Mr RASKIN Madam Chairperson thank you very much The Consumer Product Safety Commission advises manufacturers of consumer products to identify all reasonably foreseeable hazards associated with use of their products and to include safety warnings and steps to reduce risk of accident in the user guides And there are requirements like this for motor vehicles and warnings put in lots of different owner manuals Would you support a requirement for voting system vendors to identify security risks associated with use of your voting equipment and recommendations for users to mitigate those risks such as manual audits of paper ballots And just go down the line Mr Burt we’ll start with you Mr BURT Thank you Congressman We would support that And as a global comment I think we would support any requirement that applies to all vendors in our industry that would help educate both the users of our systems and anyone who interacts with them Mr RASKIN Thank you Mr POULOS Congressman I would agree with that statement as well We would support any initiative that Congress puts forward Mr RASKIN Okay And Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS And we agree also with that Mr RASKIN All right Very good There has been some reporting recently about the lobbying practices of election—of technology vendors in the election field The City Controller in Philadelphia issued an investigative report that showed serious flaws in the voting system procurement process which I think resulted in ESS getting the $29 million contract The reports indicate that ES S spent $425 000 lobbying city officials dating back to 2013 before being awarded the contract Is this just standard practice in the industry and with your business Mr Burt Mr BURT Well Congressman starting about a year and a half ago we actually hired our first ever Federal consultant to help us spend time in Washington educating Federal officials on who we are as a company how we go about our business practices We use consultants at the State level for the same purposes to educate decisionmakers Mr RASKIN Well in this case it was used to help procure a contract right Mr BURT It was used to educate any of those involved about who we are as a company the values we hold and how we conduct our business VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00047 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 42 Mr RASKIN Okay Do you also get involved in making campaign finance contributions or expenditures Mr BURT No we do not Mr RASKIN Okay Mr Poulos do you guys engage—— Mr POULOS No we don’t make campaign finance contributions Mr RASKIN You do spend money on the lobbying side Mr POULOS Yes we do Mr RASKIN At the State and local level Mr POULOS Correct Mr RASKIN Okay And Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Our involvement in lobbyists has been very minimal and primarily related to helping educate us on local procurement processes within certain jurisdictions Mr RASKIN Okay I’m curious about whether each of your companies engaged in adversarial testing of your voting systems Mr POULOS do you—— Mr POULOS We have in the past It’s something that we’re looking to expand in the future Mr RASKIN Okay Mr Burt Mr BURT We do routinely We’ve hired third parties to perform penetration testing as Ms Mathis mentioned earlier We also participated through a DHS program with the Idaho National Lab to perform penetration testing on our equipment Mr RASKIN Okay And Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Yes and we have been involved in that same penetration testing approach by the DHS’ recommended Idaho National Labs Mr RASKIN Okay So do you routinely allow academic researchers to test the quality and security and integrity of your products without prescreening them In other words do you generally permit outside investigators to come in check it out Mr BURT We have not involved academics who haven’t been prescreened With the coordinated vulnerability disclosure program that we’re working on with our colleagues the idea is to have a firm be able to manage a network of white hat ethical hackers to broaden the access to our systems without making this information open to the public Mr RASKIN Okay Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Congressman we have done that in the past as far back in New York in 2009 We found that the exercise was useful and we are looking forward to doing more of that within the confines of a reality-based scenario of testing Mr RASKIN Okay And Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS And we would support the appropriate disclosure of that information It’s important that we not undermine voter confidence in ensuring that we actually evaluate and assess kind of the type of disclosures necessary Mr RASKIN Okay And finally I remember from my days in Annapolis that there was sometimes conflict between the disability rights community and the champions of security in the process VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00048 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 43 And I wonder Mr Poulos will you just try to illuminate that if you could Mr POULOS Sure Most recently with a lot of the public commentary around ballot marking devices there is a concern regarding the formality of how the ballots are printed for voters as the voter record and that sometimes is a natural conflict between universal accessibility and security initiatives Mr RASKIN I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman’s time has expired The gentleman from will North Carolina Mr Walker is recognized for five minutes Mr WALKER Thank you Thank you Madam Chairperson I believe each of you mentioned in your written testimony frustration with the voluntary voting system guidelines update that is ongoing at the Elections Assistance Commission This frustration has been shared by others in the election industry as well as this issue seems to have a lot to do with antiquated HAVA or Help America Vote Act Where can we as a Committee focus to help update the HAVA I’ll start with you Mr Burt Mr BURT Thank you for your question Congressman I think that the EAC given the resources and funding they have do a very good job And sometimes it amazes me how much they are able to accomplish given the resources they have I think we should ask them to broaden the scope and purview of their oversight and to do that of course they need more funding and more support Mr WALKER Okay Mr Poulos Mr POULOS I would—I would agree with Mr Burt’s comments and I would add to that a particular example as it pertains to patching specifically of third party software such as Windows where a patch is readily available and it’s sometimes very cumbersome and timely to get that tested patch to end customers Mr WALKER Thank you Ms Mathis anything to add to that Ms MATHIS I would agree with those comments Mr WALKER Okay All right How has your relationship with the DHS evolved How have State and local authorities responded to DHS I’ll put up a couple of these and who wants to take it Is DHS helping to secure foreign supply chains And what type of services does DHS currently offer you Mr Poulos let me start with you Let’s start with what type of services does DHS currently offer you Mr POULOS It offers several different programs We’ve taken part of a physical security review They offer product testing And in terms of the evolution of that relationship I would say it was zero 4 years ago and it’s been very helpful for not only us but the customers we serve Mr WALKER Mr Burt is DHS helping you to secure foreign supply chains Mr BURT They are not and I think that’s a real opportunity whether it’s through DHS or Department of Defense or somewhere else in the Federal Government As Mr Poulos mentioned I think VerDate Sep 11 2014 04 59 Nov 25 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00049 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 44 the vendors are eager to work in partnership with the Federal Government to make sure that we’re following best practices and we safeguard to the best of our abilities our Nation’s voting equipment Mr WALKER Just reiterating this again in working with DHS as well as your own companies any evidence that China or Russia has hacked any portion or part of this either has the DHS discovered any of that or assumed or even suggested that or anything of those nature Mr BURT No We’ve never—we’ve never received any evidence or even commentary that suggests that these systems have been hacked Mr POULOS No No Mr WALKER Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS No Mr WALKER I’ve got a question here and if you can expound a little bit on this Have each of you hired an executive level chief information security officer Mr Burt Mr BURT We have Mr WALKER Mr Poulos Mr POULOS We have Mr WALKER Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS We have an extended internal security team and we have a CISSP expert on our staff Mr WALKER Mr Poulos what are the qualifications for such a position What are the requirements of that What are you looking for there Mr POULOS Well we have—we have that bifurcated in terms of corporate IT assets and product security and there are two different sets of requirements I can—I don’t—can’t list them to you off the top of my head but I can—— Mr WALKER Mr Burt Mr BURT Congressman we were fortunate enough to find the gentleman who was the chief information security officer for Health and Human Services at the Federal level and he’s been with us now for a couple of years So he has vast experience working with various government agencies in that capacity as a chief information security officer Mr WALKER Let me stay with you Mr Burt I want to unpack this a little bit more Why is a position like this especially relevant in developing equipment for modern elections Mr BURT I think as we look forward it is necessary for someone with deep technical expertise to advise the company in its actions to do everything it can to make sure that we are making the right decisions to protect the security of our equipment and our services Mr WALKER Mr Poulos Mr POULOS I agree with those comments in terms of a deeper understanding of best practices and where the state of the art is evolving to It really benefits the security of the products Mr WALKER Real quickly for the three of you there if you were to give yourselves a grade 1 out of 10 10 being excellent the highest mark as far as your attentiveness to make sure there’s no corruption or nothing nefarious any kind of behavior going on how would you score your company as far as the time the attention the resources that you’re putting into this Mr Burt VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 45 Mr BURT Congressman we spend a great deal of time on a regular basis Our effort—I can honestly say our effort is as strong as we are capable of We are always looking to find ways to improve our effort and to partner with other agencies to improve our ability to mitigate any risks that might be there Mr WALKER Mr Poulos Mr POULOS The security of our products and our infrastructure is a key priority for us It always has and it is reflected in not only the amount of time and resources we spend to do it Mr WALKER Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Same thing We absolutely dedicate—it’s in our DNA It’s pervasive across our people our process our procedures our product Mr WALKER Thank you very much And if this doesn’t work out you may have a career in politics since none of you gave me a number answer to the question So I yield back to my chairwoman The CHAIRPERSON The other gentleman from North Carolina Mr Butterfield is recognized for five minutes Mr BUTTERFIELD Thank you Chairperson Lofgren for convening this very important hearing today I cannot think of a hearing except for the debate on the War Powers Act that we could be having right now This is critically important to our democracy and certainly thank you to the three witnesses for your testimony today Mr Burt let me start with you sir and I want to talk specifically about North Carolina You know I represent a district in North Carolina There’s been a lot of controversy surrounding your company’s recent dealings with elections officials in my State Some have referred to what transpired as a bait and switch I don’t know if that’s warranted or unwarranted I hope it’s unwarranted Can you please explain to me why you waited so long to tell North Carolina election officials that you did not have enough voting systems to cover the 2020 primaries Mr BURT Thank you for your question Congressman I have read that bait-and-switch comment The situation in North Carolina we applied for certification for our system in North Carolina roughly five years ago We went through all of our testing The report was written It went to the State board for approval And at that point in time the State board essentially dissolved There was not a quorum at the state board for over four years That system that we got tested five years ago finally got approved this year Because it was five years old we immediately went in after that and got our latest and most secure system updated And it is that system the most recently certified system that we’ve delivered to the citizens of North Carolina So if a bait and switch means that we decided to send the most recent and most secure system to the citizens of North Carolina that is what we did Mr BUTTERFIELD All right I’m informed that your company admitted installing remote access software on some of its election systems that it sold over a six-year period Were any remote wirelessequipped systems sold to elections officials in my State Mr BURT Congressman that practice happened between the year 2000 and 2006 No system that we have brought through the VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00051 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 46 EAC program since the year 2007 has been equipped with any kind of remote access software We have confirmed that there is no system out there in the country being used today that has a remote access system attached to it Mr BUTTERFIELD All right Ms Mathis do you support Federal legislation to expand the use of post-election audits like risk-limiting audits in Federal elections Ms MATHIS We absolutely do Mr BUTTERFIELD Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Absolutely Mr BUTTERFIELD And Mr Burt Mr BURT Yes Mr BUTTERFIELD Thank you Do you think that all manual audits of paper records can be conducted on all the voting systems that you currently sell Ms MATHIS We have a portion of—a subset of our product that actually does not permit risk-limiting audits There are other audits and other testing that fulfilled a fully ability to confirm the accurate results Mr BUTTERFIELD All right Let me ask you Mr Poulos What do you do to ensure that your subcontractors and your manufacturers follow industry best practices on cybersecurity In other words do you conduct background checks and the like on your subcontractors Mr POULOS On our direct subcontractors yes we do And for our manufacturing partners we make sure that they adhere to ISO standards Mr BUTTERFIELD Mr Burt Mr BURT We do the exact same thing We perform background checks on the contractors that we hire directly and any of our manufacturing partners are all ISO certified Mr BUTTERFIELD This is not a—not a cursory background check You do an indepth—— Mr BURT A criminal—yeah a detailed background check and that’s part of the ISO certification Mr BUTTERFIELD And Ms Mathis you as well Ms MATHIS Yes Mr BUTTERFIELD All right Are you aware of any cyberattacks in which the attacker gained unauthorized access to your internal systems corporate data or consumer data Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS We are not Mr BUTTERFIELD Do you have any evidence that this has happened Ms MATHIS We do not no Mr BUTTERFIELD All right Mr Poulos Mr POULOS No we do not Mr BUTTERFIELD And Mr Burt Mr BURT No we do not Mr BUTTERFIELD Thank you Let’s see how I’m doing on time All right Back to you Mr Burt We know you’re committed to no longer sell paperless machines but you are selling the Express Vote with an AutoCast feature that has the voter skip—that has the voter to VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00052 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 47 skip the verification of the paper record Given that the primary criticism of paperless machines was that they did not have a voter verified paper audit trail do you think—do you think it’s—it’s correct to say that you will no longer sell paperless machines but you are selling a machine that can record votes without a paper trail Mr BURT Congressman I don’t believe—I’m not aware off the top of my head of any customers who are using that particular product in an AutoCast fashion I believe all the customers who are using that product present the ballot back to the voter for verification in one way or another either through a screen or by taking out the piece of paper Mr BUTTERFIELD All right And finally for Ms Mathis currently listed on your website in the products that you sell are the paperless DRA machine called the Verity Touch I guess I have that right Verity Touch Meanwhile there is a clear consensus among experts that the paper ballots are needed to ensure that voters’ votes are counted properly Why do you think—why do you continue to sell a machine we all know puts the integrity of the voters’ ballot at risk Ms MATHIS We actually believe our DREs are secure and it’s not just Hart’s belief We have had those products federally certified through the EAC They’ve gone through extensive accredited test lab testing Certain States have certified those They comply with all VVSG standards and they comply with all our extensive security protocols that we have throughout the Verity—throughout the Verity platform including extensive multilayer defense-in-depth security protocols Mr BUTTERFIELD Thank you I’m out of time I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman’s time has expired We’ll have a second round of questions so that we can further explore this The gentlelady from Ohio is recognized for five minutes Ms FUDGE Thank you very much The CHAIRPERSON The Chairwoman of our Elections Subcommittee Ms FUDGE Thank you very much Madam Chairperson Thank you all so much for your testimony All right Just a couple of questions really but let me just first say I understand that this is a business with you all but I think my colleague Mr Butterfield said it best ‘‘It is critical to our democracy and your equipment is purchased with taxpayer dollars ’’ So there are some things that we do expect and there is some information that we expect you to give us So as I say that let me just also say that I’m from Cuyahoga County Ohio We have ES S machines but in the State of Ohio we have 13 different voting systems And so when we talk about ensuring the security of our systems what we find is that we probably need more trained examiners because we have so many different systems So let me first ask do you support increasing the number of testing labs so that we can test voting equipment examiners Mr BURT Yes we do Ms FUDGE Okay Mr POULOS Absolutely VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00053 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 48 Ms MATHIS Yes Ms FUDGE Secondly it’s my understanding that the testing standards that we currently use date back as far as 2005 We’re in 2020 but we’re using standards And so what we have done is basically said to the Windows people You determine what the upgrades in security should be because you’re dancing to their tune not to the EAC Is that how you see it as well Mr BURT Congresswoman I think there is certainly an opportunity to update the voting systems standards and actually to broaden the program to include more security specific testing That’s what we would like to see Ms FUDGE Everybody Mr POULOS I’m sorry Congresswoman I don’t understand the question Ms FUDGE Well you’re doing upgrades to your systems on a regular basis not based upon what we think is a security issue but what Windows is telling you you need to do because that’s the operating system Mr POULOS Both—both is true actually So we are regularly innovating new features that are—that come from local jurisdictions and State officials based on evolving threats and evolving state of the art of the technology In addition we do use Windows and Microsoft products that do have their own patches That’s not core to the tabulation product as well We do not have off-the-shelf Windows Ms FUDGE I’m not suggesting that Mr POULOS Okay Ms FUDGE What I’m suggesting is that when you do—when Microsoft calls you and tells you ‘‘you need to do this upgrade ’’ you do it Mr POULOS We implement it We test it We submit it for certification We do not implement it for example in a county in Ohio until it is tested Ms FUDGE I’m not suggesting that you don’t test it Mr POULOS Okay Ms FUDGE My point is that you don’t do it based upon what we believe is a security issue you do it upon what Microsoft believes is one Mr POULOS Right I—okay Ms FUDGE You don’t have to defend Microsoft I’m not trying to do anything to Microsoft I’m just making the point that we need to be more involved in the process Mr POULOS No that’s true That’s true Ms FUDGE Okay Will all of you commit today to allowing researchers to test your products without prescreening or hand-picking those researchers to do it Mr BURT Congresswoman we’re not interested in hand- picking What we’re interested in is making sure that we attract hackers who can make our systems better without requiring that the information that they discover be put into the public domain So what we’d like to see is for the EAC to actually manage a coordinated vulnerability disclosure program and have the EAC choose VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00054 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 49 the researchers and assemble the team and manage the program We think that’s—— Ms FUDGE So that’s a yes Mr BURT Yes We would like to see the EAC manage that program Ms FUDGE The only reason I’m cutting you off I have five minutes Mr BURT Sure Understood Ms FUDGE I ask each of you What do you do to ensure that your subcontractors and manufacturers follow best practices on cybersecurity Mr Butterfield already asked you about your background checks If you could answer the first part of the question Mr POULOS Well in our case for example our lead manufacturer manufactures products for the Department of Defense and has accreditations under ISO and so we look for that as a prerequisite to doing business with that manufacturer Ms MATHIS Very similar yes We look at ISO standards We also have deep quality reviews and ensure that we’re managing our suppliers very very closely Ms FUDGE Very good I work for the Federal Government too I don’t trust everybody else that works for the Federal Government So I want to be sure that you’re looking at them not just hiring them because they work for the Federal Government Mr POULOS Fair enough Ms FUDGE I yield back Madam Chairperson The CHAIRPERSON The gentlelady yields back The gentleman from California Mr Aguilar is recognized for five minutes Mr AGUILAR Thank you Madam Chairperson I wanted to talk a little bit about products and defects and we can go down the line Mr Burt if you’ll indulge me by starting Do you have builtin systems and practices that look for—specifically look for defects along the way And can you describe the evolution of how long it takes to find a defect create a solution and then implement that solution Mr BURT We do have built-in systems ranging from various source code reviews to penetration testing to functional testing In the event—if a system has been fielded been approved by the EAC and delivered to a State and has been fielded and there’s a— there’s a functionality—piece of the functionality that we want to change that process to make the change currently—have to go through the Federal testing program and redeploy to the State— can be six months to a year depending on the scope and depth of the changes being made Mr AGUILAR Do you inform the customer when that happens—— Mr BURT Yes Mr AGUILAR continuing If a defect or something—are they under an obligation to pay for a fix Mr BURT No No In those cases those are covered under licenses and we make the changes and roll them back out to the customer Ms AGUILAR Mr Poulos VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00055 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 50 Mr POULOS Similar with Dominion We comprehensively do situational testing on all of our products and that is an ongoing thing in the company on all current products Any issue that we find is immediately disclosed That’s actually regulated in some States such as your home State within a very specific time period depending on the severity of the issue Mr AGUILAR And then per the license they would—you would—— Mr POULOS It would not be an extra charge no Ms MATHIS Very similar We disclose any of those types of critical election day type malfunctions to the EAC So that’s all—that’s all regulated right now Mr AGUILAR Great I appreciate it Shifting gears to—you talked about the Idaho National Lab and some of the DHS testing work that you’ve done With respect specifically to cyberattacks and we all understand the stakes here and what’s involved as do you Can you talk specifically about how you work with the Federal Government when cyberattacks potentially occur Do you report those potential intrusions to your customers or to the Federal Government And do you believe you have an obligation to provide timely notification to customers when a security breach of that product or your company happens Mr Burt Mr BURT We do We have—we share information with the MS– ISAC and the EI–ISAC So we don’t for example share that a specific IP address has been identified as an attempt to penetrate a firewall Of course that happens thousands of times a day from all over the world So that sort of information isn’t useful But through the coordination with DHS and the MS–ISAC they help us to identify and understand sort of potential attacks that might be exceptionally dangerous Mr AGUILAR What would that look like In the last 60 days How many times would you notify a customer or the—— Mr BURT We don’t notify customers of the MS–ISAC but many of the customers participate and receive the same information so it’s sort of—it’s not specific to our business It’s commentary about what’s going on around the country Mr AGUILAR So there’s no way for a customer to know that there was a potential breach I’m not talking about a ping at an IP address I’m talking about a breach and a potential intrusion into your system Mr POULOS We’ve had no breaches to report Mr AGUILAR What’s that dialogue like with DHS with any Federal entity through your systems How often is that—— Mr BURT There is a process if a breach were to occur DHS has issued guidelines in terms of the communication We practice those through national tabletop exercises We actually have the Department of Homeland Security travel to Omaha to conduct a tabletop exercise on premise so that we can essentially practice in the event that a breach did occur to make sure that we would be in position to communicate it effectively Mr AGUILAR Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Very similar Congressman We have not had any potential breaches So we actually haven’t reported anything to a VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00056 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 51 customer But our policy is absolutely that we would immediately communicate any potential breach to a customer Mr AGUILAR Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Very similar We have not had any breaches but we’ve created a very robust incident response plan that has been updated to include disclosures and notification all directions—DHS the customer—to ensure that we’ve got the appropriate communications Mr AGUILAR At what level would you Ms Mathis would you flag for DHS I understand that all of you are saying you know you haven’t been breached Ms MATHIS Right Mr AGUILAR But at what level—there’s a difference between being breached—— Ms MATHIS Right Mr AGUILAR continuing And being pinged by an IP address—— Ms MATHIS Right Mr AGUILAR continuing In a foreign country Ms MATHIS Right Mr AGUILAR Give me—talk with me about that spectrum of intrusion on the cyber side Ms MATHIS Right Well we actually are erring on the side of if anything too much disclosure if there is such a thing We actually had an example where a customer contacted us with a potential breach and we actually contacted the DHS and let them know of this whole situation So it was not a breach And actually it turned out that that particular county was exercising a test and so it actually—the whole process worked We did not know that and so it was—we were happy to communicate that to DHS Mr AGUILAR Thank you Ms Mathis Thank you Madam Chairperson The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman’s time has expired As I mentioned earlier we will have a second round of questions and I will begin In answer to a question from Mr Butterfield Mr Burt testified under oath that they do not currently have voting systems in the United States with remote access software installed if I heard you correctly Mr BURT That is our belief that none of the systems in use today—— The CHAIRPERSON Would that be true for the other two vendors Mr POULOS Yes Ms MATHIS We have never had remote access The CHAIRPERSON Okay Let me ask you this Do you sell voting machines that have network capabilities installed Mr BURT Can you be more specific Madam Chairperson The CHAIRPERSON Yes You don’t have the software installed but you have the capability of installing it Mr BURT For remote access software The CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr BURT We do not—we no longer install any remote access software That process was discontinued in 2006 and is not allowed by any of the EAC testing VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00057 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 52 The CHAIRPERSON Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Madam Chairperson we’ve never had any kind of remote access in our Dominion products The CHAIRPERSON Capabilities Mr POULOS Capabilities The CHAIRPERSON Okay Mr POULOS I will say that I do want to draw a caveat Some of our tabulators have the—are designed around the ability to have an external plug in modem to transmit unofficial results after polls close The CHAIRPERSON Okay Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS We do not have remote access capabilities as you mentioned So similar to Mr Poulos we have as required by certain States a remote transmission capability as an add-on The CHAIRPERSON So that’s something that we may want to look at further I want to talk about remote ballot marking devices Some experts in election security have raised concerns to me about the risk of these devices that store information about the choice a voter has made in a nontransparent format for example a bar code or a QR code so that when the voter doesn’t actually—he may be checking something but it’s not what actually is going to be tabulated Do you provide that equipment that does it in that way any of you Mr POULOS Yes Mr BURT We do yes Ms MATHIS We do not actually Our—our technology for our Verity Duo product actually captures—does not put any voter choice in a bar code We have optical character recognition—— The CHAIRPERSON Okay Ms MATHIS continuing Technology The CHAIRPERSON I have a question For over a decade my smartphone has had the capability to prevent unauthorized unsigned code from running on the device or interfering with its operating systems Do all of your election systems currently in use prevent unauthorized code or altering—altered operating systems from running on them in this way Mr BURT They do Madam Chairperson I’ll give you one example The memory stick that we purchased from a U S manufacturer our election management system won’t even operate unless they know that it’s a particular serialized number memory stick So if you bought a memory stick from an Office Depot it wouldn’t recognize it and the system would shut down The CHAIRPERSON How about you Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Similar All of our Dominion products that are certified are the same The exception that I will point out to the Committee is we do support some legacy systems that are still in use that were designed in the remaining cases over 20 years ago that do not have this capability Ms MATHIS Our Verity product line actually incorporates a feature called white listing which actually only allows the programs that we permit with our Verity design so it actually blocks everything except for those So it’s the opposite of blacklisting So it has actually even more secure VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00058 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 53 The CHAIRPERSON I’d like to follow up with you Mr Burt because from the previous testimony your company is the only one that provides election infrastructure that is not just the voting machines itself You have indicated your interest or suggestion that the EAC have greater jurisdiction over voter registration election management systems electronic poll books and the like I’d like to know that even without that jurisdiction what are you doing right now to ensure that these products are safe secure up to date and utilize current technology best practices Mr BURT Thank you Madam Chairperson With respect to the poll books all of the data is encrypted on the poll books With respect to the voter registration systems which I think is more commonly a question for folks we’ve recently worked with the Center for Internet Security to install Albert sensors which is a national monitoring system and we’ve wrapped this around our voter registration systems that we—that we house So for example Ranking Member Davis the example that you brought up related to Illinois going back to the 2016 election that’s the kind of activity that an Albert sensor is meant to detect and prevent with respect to a voter registration system The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much I see that my time has expired So I will turn to the Ranking Member for his additional five minutes Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you Madam Chairperson And thanks again to the witnesses I think all of our colleagues on both sides of the aisle have the same interest We want to protect our elections We want to make sure that all machines that are used to tabulate our free and fair elections are up to the task So thank you each of you for being here today I know some of the questions can be uncomfortable I know there’s been a lot of talk about supply chain issues Yes or no questions We’ll start with you this time and go that way Ms Mathis Is it currently possible to build an election machine entirely out of U S manufactured parts Ms MATHIS I don’t believe that it is possible today Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Not to my knowledge Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Burt Mr BURT I do not believe it’s possible Mr DAVIS of Illinois Do you see why that concerns all of us up here Ms MATHIS Absolutely Mr BURT Absolutely Mr DAVIS of Illinois Are the parts in your supply chain Ms Mathis that come from abroad also used in other industries Ms MATHIS Yes they are Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Yes they are Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Burt Mr BURT They are They’re used in a variety Probably some of them are present in the room today in the various equipment that you see around the room Mr DAVIS of Illinois Like VerDate Sep 11 2014 04 59 Nov 25 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00059 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 54 Mr BURT We see cameras We see a variety of electronics We see switches There’s almost nothing that we interact with from an electronics point of view Of course your phone Thank you That have parts that are made overseas and distributed to a variety of manufacturers Mr DAVIS of Illinois So it’s the critical components of your election machines that we’re all concerned about And you’ve testified earlier because we have a global supply chain you’re not able to— you’re not able to comprehend a machine that can be built right now with completely U S parts So tell me tell us make us feel comfortable here in this country that your machines with the critical components are U S manufactured or they’re going to be able to not be compromised Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS I believe that that is an ongoing challenge that we all have and we’re open to getting feedback from—as we mentioned earlier from DHS to help us understand what our capabilities and opportunities might be to source alternatives Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Poulos Mr POULOS That’s been an ongoing discussion at the EAC in terms of the next generation of standards on how they address in the guidelines that we would follow to those practices Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Burt Mr BURT Again I think this is an opportunity for the voting system vendors to partner better with the Federal Government Surely there is deep talent and expertise in the Federal Government that could be brought to bear on the supply chain management and the voting system industry We would welcome that dialogue and assistance Mr DAVIS of Illinois We look forward to working with you in that field Earlier it was mentioned about the campaign contributions and lobbying activities Mr Burt you mentioned that ES S does not make campaign contributions at the Federal level right Mr BURT We actually have a policy that every one of our employees vice president and above as well as anyone engaged in sales and marketing activities are strictly prohibited from making district campaign contributions Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Mr Poulos do you—are you able to make campaign contributions in your company Mr POULOS We had a policy that all employees were not able to make any campaign contributions Mr DAVIS of Illinois All right Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Similar Mr DAVIS of Illinois Similar Are you guys all corporations Mr BURT Yes Mr POULOS Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois Registered corporations in the United States Okay Well it’s nice to see that we have a lot of agreement here amongst Republicans and Democrats in regard to election security I find it interesting during the first round of questions Chairperson VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00060 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 55 Lofgren talked about some of the areas where you all agree that the Federal Government needs to work with you She mentioned a robust bill sitting in the Senate Well here is the problem with the top-down approach from Washington when it comes to our own election infrastructure process That robust bill sitting in the Senate may force you as corporations to actually give campaign contributions to Members of Congress because in that robust bill there’s a provision that would take corporate funds from corporate malfeasance which I would argue you would be eligible for with election infrastructure if something went wrong and it would go into a Freedom from Influence Fund that was concocted by the Majority and that would force the first ever corporate dollars into congressional campaigns So my point of bringing this up is you don’t allow campaign contributions now by any of your employees because you don’t want that to affect anyone who’s in charge of running free and fair elections in this country right Mr BURT Correct Ms MATHIS Correct Mr POULOS Correct Mr DAVIS of Illinois Why in the world would this institution at the Federal level in turn possibly require you and require any corporation to give the first ever corporate dollars to individual Members of Congress’ campaigns That’s why when we talk about robust bills we all have the same goals but let’s not kid ourselves in thinking that there are provisions in bills that are going to always benefit free and fair elections rather than benefiting individual members of Congress I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman yields back I just—before yielding to Mr Raskin obviously everyone’s entitled to their own opinion but the matter referenced is a fine collected by the Federal Government which would then be put into a fund not a contribution from corporations I yield to the gentleman from Maryland for five minutes Mr RASKIN Madam Chairperson thank you very much Let me pursue the line of questioning by my friend from Illinois and I asked those questions originally about lobbying and campaign contributions and so on I just saw this report from ProPublica which says in August 2018 Louisiana announced it would replace its old voting machines and awarded a $95 million contract to a rival of ES S which was the lowest bidder ES S filed a complaint that accused the State of writing its request for proposals so that only the other companies’ machines would satisfy the terms Shortly after Governor John Bell Edwards cancelled the deal effectively siding with ES S and forcing the State to start the process over again Quote ‘‘The Governor’s administration just sided with the company that was $40 million more expensive ’’ Louisiana Secretary of State Kyle Ardoin said in a statement after the cancellation In a statement the Governor’s office said the cancellation was justified The office laid the blame at the feet of the Secretary of State’s office which it said had added additional requirements to the bid just days before responses were due Louisiana campaign finance records showed that an ES S lobbyist in Baton Rouge had donated $13 250 to Edwards’ campaigns since 2014 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00061 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 56 I noted Mr Burt you said that you have a ban on campaign contributions by the top-level officials in your company Is that right Mr BURT Correct Mr RASKIN But it doesn’t go all the way down and it doesn’t apply to lobbyists that you would employ in the various States Is that right Mr BURT It does not apply to lobbyists yes Mr RASKIN So what’s your specific practice Mr Poulos None of your employees can make—— Mr POULOS Correct Mr RASKIN continuing Contributions at any level And Ms Mathis how about you Ms MATHIS Correct Mr RASKIN I wonder if one of you would be interested in opining about why you have that practice and whether you think that should be in Federal law for all of the reasons that were you know suggested by my colleague about the importance of keeping election administration completely separate I mean you know we’ve got two dangers here One is paranoia where you know we have politicians running around saying it’s all fraud right The other is complacency where we don’t pay sufficient attention But can you explain what the basis of that policy is that you have Mr Poulos for example Mr POULOS Sure The basis is very clear We want as a company and our stakeholders to be completely independent of the election officials that are making selections in terms of what’s best for their State and localities Congressman in your example of Louisiana Louisiana happens to be a State that currently has legacy voting systems of the type that is being discussed at this Committee level and they were seeking to update with more modern certified systems and unfortunately that’s been delayed Mr RASKIN I assume you mean by virtue of the change in the vendor Mr POULOS There was no change There was just—because of that process it was all delayed and as a result they’re using the legacy voting systems in the 2020 election Mr RASKIN Gotcha Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS I’m sorry What is the question Mr RASKIN Well I guess the question is what’s the basis of your policy of not—of preventing all employees and I don’t know if it extends to consultants Ms MATHIS It’s just important for to us ensure that we are objective and independent in all elections We don’t run elections Local election officials run elections so we’re not engaged in the running of the election but it’s just important for us to ensure that we’re staying objective and independent Mr RASKIN I remember that there was a big controversy about the company Diebold and I think one of your companies took over Diebold Was that ES S Mr BURT A little complicated Congressman Mr RASKIN Oh okay Mr BURT We made a purchase and then my colleague Mr Poulos here ended up buying the intellectual property of that VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00062 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 57 Mr RASKIN Okay So both of you got a piece of it But I remember that they were actually politically involved and I think it was the President who had sent out a campaign solicitation saying that they would do anything to see that one candidate got elected President at a time when their machinery was being used in different States And that obviously creates a serious problem from the standpoint of public confidence in the integrity of the election So all of this makes me think that it might be a good idea for us to formalize and to make comprehensive the practice that you seem to be moving towards which is that your job is to sell the technology to make it as secure as possible and not to be involved in the political process I’m just wondering finally about why it seems that technology goes so wrong sometimes In Georgia ES S owned technology was used where more than 150 000 voters inexplicably did not cast a vote for Lieutenant Governor and then there were not paper backups Why does that happen Because that is one of the problems we have that there are huge problems like this that take place on the one day or two days a year that the machinery has got work and then it really undermines public confidence in the whole system Mr BURT Congressman the equipment that you speak about is actually not ES S equipment The company Diebold that went out of business that you spoke of a second ago—— Mr RASKIN Oh I see Okay Mr POULOS continuing Is actually the manufacturer of that equipment Mr RASKIN All right But in general I think there were some other cases where that’s happened as well I mean can you explain Why does that happen It only has to work once a year once every two years and then it breaks down So I wonder if maybe one person could answer I yield back Mr POULOS Thank you for the question Congressman So the equipment that you are referencing was a legacy voting system originally sold to the State of Georgia by Diebold who is no longer in the elections business But it is the type of voting machine that does not feature any kind of voter verified paper audit trail So in the event of something happening in an election and that’s not the only instance by the way where something plausible—or sorry— something possible but not plausible happens it’s difficult to have an audit for that if there’s not any kind of paper record The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman’s time has expired I turn now to the gentleman from North Carolina Mr Walker for five minutes Mr WALKER Thank you Madam Chairperson Just a quick purpose of my colleague Mr Davis talking about H R 1 A quick question along those lines I’m assuming if you were fined by the Federal Government those would be corporate dollars and you would pay those fines It makes me think of the great philosopher Yogi Berra who said ‘‘They give you cash which is just as good as money ’’ We will leave that for a different day My question is We’re Federal elected officials You guys are the experts in this industry and I applaud you for the in-depth testi- VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00063 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 58 monies that you’ve given today Obviously this is not just talking points you know the stuff here As I look into the future and I want all three of you to kind of touch base on this Where do you see the technology of election systems headed 5 10 15 20 years down the road because obviously as the ranking member on another committee when it comes to intelligence and specifically even terroristic cybersecurity acts So as technology advances where do you guys see the adaptations that need to be made over that distance of time I’m going to start with Ms Mathis and work right to left today Ms MATHIS Sure I mean unlike other industries in the—other technology industries the direction seems to be more back to paper That wasn’t the case a few years ago and now the election industry actually has moved that way to more paper which is interesting from a technology perspective I feel like that that will continue to evolve as preferences of local election officials evolve and as security continues to evolve So I think that the answer is it will evolve Mr WALKER Right Mr Poulos Mr POULOS I look at it them three ways in technology people and process On the first on technology I see evolved standards on security and how the technology comes to be in terms of manufacturing and supply chain In terms of people and process I think that I would like to see I should say further programs and continued work at the Federal and State level in terms of better eliminating barriers that jurisdictions have in modernizing their election infrastructure and things like poll worker training Mr WALKER Okay Mr Burt Mr BURT I agree with Mr Poulos’ comments on security and it highlights the fact that the burden on election administrators across the country from a technical capability perspective grows even greater So I think the challenge for election administrators to be able to staff their respective offices with people who are competent in these fields will be an ever greater challenge going forward Mr WALKER Thank you very much I yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you And I want to get back to the supply chain issue real quick because it concerns me Have any of you had conversations with your U S suppliers of electronic products that go into your machines just like our TVs our phones and what have you Have you talked to those suppliers you work with that may outsource some of their manufacturing to foreign countries Have you talked to them about trying to develop a U S -made chip or electronic LCD product even though they may be a U S company Mr BURT We have Ranking Member but the challenge is—and I believe this is true for all of us We are not a large customer to any of these major manufacturers so take Texas Instruments for example which makes one of our programmable logic devices We are a very very small part of their business So for them to retool their international operations for our benefit is just not realistic VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00064 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 59 Mr DAVIS of Illinois Mr Poulos Mr POULOS That’s a hundred percent correct and the infrastructure needed is—the change of infrastructure to be able to create all of the fabs and necessary manufacturing for 100 percent components being manufactured in the United States is not a small effort Mr DAVIS of Illinois Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS It will take a whole sea change in the way that the global supply change works in the technology industry I think for that—for us to be able to take advantage of that Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Now I asked if you were all corporations Will you tell me yes or no Are you—any of you run by private holding companies private equity companies Mr BURT We are run by our executive management team but we have 80 percent ownership by a local private investment group Mr DAVIS of Illinois How about you Mr POULOS Similar We are run by a management team and we are owned I believe 76 percent by a U S private equity firm Mr DAVIS of Illinois All right Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Similar structure Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Do you see why that’s concerning to us on both sides of the aisle on election security That’s something that I think—obviously are going to be questions raised by both Republicans and Democrats in the future Look I appreciate you all being here I appreciate you taking the time We have the exact same interests on all sides here in Washington We want to protect our elections We want to make sure your machines are unhackable and let’s continue to work together to make that happen I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman yields back The gentlelady from California Mrs Davis is recognized for five μminutes Mrs DAVIS of California Thank you Madam Chairperson and thank you to all of you for being here I’m sorry I had to walk out during the panel for another hearing but I think many of the questions have been asked I wanted to focus for a moment just on voter education and the responsibility if anyyou all have you know through the companies And also if you want to comment Ms Mathis You know what is that responsibility Do you work with election officials We were talking about some ballots that were misread you know How do we deal with that You mentioned Diebold That was related— that was related—that was what they did at that particular time but we also know that sometimes ballots are just not constructed in a way that people actually see where they should go you know as they share their stories So how—you know what are we doing really to make sure that people are registered correctly that they can check their votes make sure that they you know voted the way that they want to Often people are pressured by long lines How can you help What are you doing to really address these issues And I know the second panel is also speaking to voter education VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00065 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 60 Ms MATHIS We believe very strongly with a partnership with our local election officials and so that extends to voter outreach voter training poll worker training We work with our local election officials to ensure that they have best practices that we provide them materials you know handouts We also—we have webinars where we’ll train the local election officials toμprovide additional media Mrs DAVIS of California Can you think of an instance when you’ve actually picked up a problem and they’ve corrected it Ms MATHIS If they what Mrs DAVIS of California That you picked up a problem pointed out something to them that could be an issue and that they changed it Ms MATHIS Yes We have the benefit of best practices We have you know customers all over the Nation We’ll provide to them You know hey here is what we’ve seen in other jurisdictions that’s worked really well So this is an ongoing partnership and you know our customers our local election officials rate us very highly It’s just an ongoing you know lifelong partnership with them We absolutely are part of that solution Mr POULOS Congressman what we hear from our customers and what they value is the shared perspective of best practices from our experience around the country with experience that they at that local jurisdiction may not have seen particularly as it pertains to the deployment of new equipment Voter outreach and poll worker training is exceedingly important We’ve been asked questions about can we build an un-hackable voting system And really you can have a very secure reliable accurate system that’s transparent but again you have to understand the people and processes layered on top of that and pose additional risks This is something that voting officials have known for decades That’s why we have poll watchers It’s why warehouses are bipartisan and boards of election are bipartisan The poll worker training and the train the trainer is something that is exceedingly important in the ongoing vigilance of the migrating threats that we see Mr BURT Congresswoman you mentioned the importance of voter education We agree For some unfortunately interacting with a piece of technology such as a touch screen or even a voting machine can be somewhat intimidating and we don’t ever want that to be a reason that someone would choose to not go and vote So starting with making sure that our customers understand at a very deep level how these machines operate and then assisting them going out in the public For example with the city of Philadelphia we made our machines available in many public squares and invited citizens prior months in advance of the first election where this equipment would be used so that people could kind of remove the intimidation factor from interacting with a new piece of equipment and make sure that they are comfortable so that they would be encouraged to be able to come out and exercise their right to vote Mrs DAVIS of California Thank you I certainly hope we don’t hear about some of those horror stories that have occurred from VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00066 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 61 time to time and it’s not all your responsibility of course but where you can help I think is helpful In the interest of transparency could you share just this quickly how much of your annual profits and if you could tell us you know what are your annual profits How much of that money comes from sales of new voting machines and how much of it comes from service contracts for existing machines Mr BURT Congresswoman that varies very substantially from year to year There are years or there have been years even recent years where we’ve sold very minimal amounts of hardware And of course last year in the recent run up in preparation for 2020 I believe all three of our companies sold a disproportionate amount of hardware because of the actions that jurisdictions were taking But there is no—unfortunately I wish there were There is no even or normal in terms of the mix between hardware and services in this industry Mrs DAVIS of California Annual profits I think my time is up Mr BURT Congresswoman we’re a private company so we’ll keep that information private Mrs DAVIS of California Madam Chairperson if you want to— does that really represent kind of where you’re at as well in terms of—— Mr POULOS Correct Mrs DAVIS of California All right Thank you Thank you Madam Chairperson The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman from North Carolina is recognized for five minutes Mr BUTTERFIELD Thank you Madam Chairperson Madam Chairperson the first round went very quickly and I was unable to ask my final question and so let me pose it at this time To all three of you do your tabulators have wireless modems capacity Mr Burt Mr BURT We do field some tabulators with wireless modem capability yes Mr BUTTERFIELD Do you have any concerns about whether or not that poses any security threats Mr BURT I think that there’s always a concern That’s something that we’ve discussed with our—with our technology partners and our government partners We recently assisted with the State of Rhode Island to test a new service where Verizon has a private network that does not travel on the normal internet highway It’s blocked by firewalls on either side They involved their—their National Guard in these tests and determine that these systems were in fact very low risk and that they wanted to continue using them Mr BUTTERFIELD Does Dominion use wireless modems Mr POULOS Yes Congressman So in relation to the precinct level machines we use them insofar as a State has a regulation and requirements to report unofficial results remotely And the way we do it so to answer your question on—in terms of a concern there are additional risks that are posed when you have remote transmission of results We work to mitigate them with State and local officials All of our modems have—work on a private network Mr BUTTERFIELD Ms Mathis do you have modems as well VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00067 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 62 Ms MATHIS Yes We do similar Mr BUTTERFIELD I’m going to run out of time this time around Finally the Ranking Member raised a few minutes ago our concerns our bipartisan concerns about private equity Would you be willing to submit to—each one of you to submit in writing after this hearing a list of all individuals and entities with at least a 50 percent or more—5 percent or more ownership They said 80 and 76 So I thought I would raise it to 50 Let’s say 5 percent or more ownership or controlled interest in your company including private equity Mr POULOS Congressman we regularly make that exact disclosure to our customers Mr BUTTERFIELD But it is 80 percent Mr POULOS Oh It’s 5 percent anything over 5 percent We actually answer all questions to our customers Mr BUTTERFIELD Didn’t you say earlier that 80 percent of your ownership is with—— Mr POULOS Ours is—I think it’s 76 yeah Mr BUTTERFIELD Someone said 80 percent All right You are not in a position to provide a list of those investors Mr POULOS Oh no We are Mr BUTTERFIELD All right All right it’s part of the public record currently Mr POULOS I don’t know if jurisdictions publish it but we’re certainly not adverse to it Mr BUTTERFIELD If you give it to the customers then you can certainly give it to this Committee Mr POULOS Of course Mr BUTTERFIELD Would you do that Mr POULOS Of course Mr BURT Congressman just to clarify I believe your question was to disclose anyone who owned 5 percent or more of the business And my answer is yes we will supply that and we have actually supplied that information to your State of North Carolina Mr BUTTERFIELD All right And Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Yes Same feedback So as far as greater than 5 percent we have provided that Mr BUTTERFIELD All right Thank you I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman from North Carolina yields back The gentlelady from Ohio is recognized for five minutes Ms FUDGE Thank you Again thank you for being here I really don’t have a question for them I just have a comment Madam Chairperson I’m glad that we agree on the fact that persons who work in your particular companies and in your field should not be making contributions to Members of Congress but I’m always amused by how we change positions from day to day One day my colleagues say Corporations are people my friend you know and they should be able to make contributions So I don’t know why you shouldn’t be able to Then they’ll say It’s a First Amendment right for people to make contributions VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00068 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 63 They oppose campaign finance reform and then they contort the language of H R 1 I’m just always confused about where they stand so I appreciate your position I think that it is the correct position but I don’t want you to get crosswise because corporations are people my friend I yield back The CHAIRPERSON The gentlelady yields back The gentleman from California is recognized for five minutes Mr AGUILAR Thank you Madam Chairperson Just one last question to follow up on Mrs Davis who asked a little bit about your company’s annual profits And I think it’s fair to say that the revenue derived by the companies comes from— would it be fair—let me start there Would it be fair to say that the revenue that your companies derive comes from those two main sources which is selling machines and then providing services contracts for services related to those machines and their use Is that fair Mr POULOS That’s fair Mr BURT Yes Mr AGUILAR So if the three of you control 80 percent of the market my concern is what portion of your revenue do you invest in research and development to produce better more secure more cost-effective machines Because what I don’t want to get to is a position where you three control—we have the same hearing in 2 years 4 years and you control 95 percent and you collectively decide well we’re just going to you know sell a few machines provide those contracts to those and we’re going to kind of work with each other to make sure that we don’t innovate you know continue to grow I’m not saying that you folks do I’m saying that you know it wouldn’t shock you to say—it wouldn’t shock you to hear that folks have come to Congress in the past when their proportionate share of a business gets a little too large and members have concerns about where that could go Mr Burt can you talk a little bit about research and development Mr BURT Sure I think you raise a very important concern There are new entrants into our marketplace however and some have been quite successful as of late We’ve been presented this question before in terms of a percentage of revenue that we reinvest for research and development Historically we’re somewhere around 19 percent of revenue that gets reinvested as research and development Mr AGUILAR Mr Poulos Mr POULOS Congressman innovation is critical for us We are only as good as our—the products that we come out with and certify Depending on the year because of our revenue fluctuation it’s anywhere from 20 percent as high as 35 percent Mr AGUILAR Ms Mathis Ms MATHIS Yeah Very similar on our side Innovation is critical to us and as far as you know the—we are trusted election partners to our local election official customers So it’s imperative to us that we’re continuing to innovate and make sure that we’re keeping up with or staying ahead of the technology VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00069 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 64 Mr AGUILAR I didn’t hear the percentage or the range Ms MATHIS We—ours also varies just depending on kind of the year but—— Mr AGUILAR I heard 19 percent I heard 20 to 35 percent Ms MATHIS Yes We’re closer to the 25 percent Mr AGUILAR Okay Thank you I appreciate it Thank you Madam Chairperson The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman yields back and that is all of our questions for moment However as I mentioned in my opening statement we may follow up with written questions after this hearing If we do that we do ask that you respond promptly We thank you very much for your testimony today and you are excused I’d like to call up the next panel and maybe we can—it’s a big panel We need to put a few more chairs up I would like to invite the next panel to take their seats and I will begin introducing this panel First if we can ask the panelists to sit It’s a little crowded but we’ve got some great witnesses First I would like to introduce Liz Howard She serves as Counsel for the Brennan Center’s Democracy Program Her work focuses on cyber security in elections Prior to joining the Brennan Center Ms Howard served as Deputy Commissioner for the Virginia Department of Elections During her tenure she coordinated many election administration modernization products including the decertification of all paperless voting systems Dr Matt Blaze is a researcher in the area of secure systems cryptography and trust management He is currently the McDevitt Chair of Computer Science and Law at Georgetown University Law Center He is a co-founder of the DEFCON Voting Village Dr Juan E Gilbert Dr Gilbert is the Banks Preeminence Chair in Human-Centered Computing and Chair of the computer and information science and engineering department at the University of Florida where he leads the Human Experience Research Lab He was part of the committee of experts and academics who wrote ‘‘Securing the Vote Protecting American Democracy’’ for the National Academy of Sciences Engineering and Medicine Dr Gilbert also created an open-source voting system that is used in Federal State and local elections The Reverend Dr T Anthony Spearman is a member of the Guilford County Board of Elections in North Carolina He was elected President of the North Carolina NAACP in October 2017 In 2016 Dr Spearman played an important role in the voter suppression litigation that challenged suppressive voter ID requirements and other legislation that would suppress votes in communities of color and other represented communities Commissioner Donald Palmer was confirmed to the EAC in 2019 He is a former Bipartisan Policy Center fellow where he provided testimony to State legislatures on election administration and voting reforms concerning election modernization Commissioner Palmer was appointed secretary of the Virginia Board of Elections by former Virginia Governor Bob McDonald in 2011 and he served as the Commonwealth’s chief election officer until 2014 He formerly served as the Florida Department of State’s director of elections and prior to his work in election administration he served VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00070 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 65 as a trial attorney with the Voting Rights Section of the Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division He was a U S Navy intelligence officer and Judge Advocate General and was awarded the Navy Meritorious Service Medal and the Navy Commendation Medal and the Joint Service Commendation Medal Finally I’m going to turn to our Ranking Member Mr Davis to introduce Mr Gianasi Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you Madam Chairperson And Mr Palmer thank you for your service in the JAG Corps I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Cole Felder who is sitting behind me our General Counsel on this Committee will be leaving to join the JAG Corps just next week so this will be his last hearing So Cole thank you for what you’ve done here Thank you for your service-to-be for our country I’m really proud to announce our last witness my home election official county clerk and recorder in Christian County Illinois Michael Gianasi Prior to his appointment and election—appointed in 2017 and elected in 2018—he was also in the private sector but was our Supervisor of Assessment so not necessarily the most fun job in the county courthouse to deal with property tax assessments but he did a great job And I want to tell you Mike’s here because I believe his testimony is going to provide an interesting perspective given his experience as a local county official who has actually administered elections I’ve known Mike almost my entire life probably from playing youth sports together in the same hometown to graduating high school together and working together as he was a fixture at the courthouse when I was working back in Illinois Mike and I are good friends Mike’s a Democrat and I’m a Republican I know that a guy like Mike Gianasi the only thing he cares about when it comes to administering elections in my home county where I vote is to get it fair make sure everybody has access to vote and to ensure that there’s no problems especially on election night Now I know that’s the concern of everyone I think Mike’s going to give a unique perspective even coming from a small rural county about how something that may be a good idea here in Washington how it may impact their ability to actually run that election as efficiently and as effectively as possible This is Mike’s first trip to D C too I got to take him on a nice tour of the Capitol last night So Mike that you enjoy the rest of your trip I just want to thank you for your opening testimony and I really want to thank you for your insight that you’re going to be able to give to this Committee to this city and to this country about what it takes to run an election in places like central Illinois And with that thanks again for coming Buddy I yield back The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much As you heard with the prior panel each of you will be asked to testify for five minutes but your full written statement will be made part of the record At this point I’d like to ask each of you to stand and raise your right hand Witnesses sworn VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00071 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 66 The CHAIRPERSON The record will note that each witness responded in the affirmative So we will turn first to you Ms Howard and we will hear from each of the witnesses TESTIMONY OF LIZ HOWARD COUNSEL BRENNAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE WASHINGTON D C MATT BLAZE PROFESSOR OF LAW GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER WASHINGTON D C JUAN GILBERT ANDREW BANKS FAMILY PREEMINENCE ENDOWED PROFESSOR CHAIR UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA GAINESVILLE FLORIDA REV T ANTHONY SPEARMAN PRESIDENT NORTH CAROLINA NAACP GREENSBORO NORTH CAROLINA THE HONORABLE DONALD PALMER COMMISSIONER ELECTION ASSISTANCE COMMISSION SILVER SPRING MARYLAND AND MIKE GIANASI COUNTY CLERK AND RECORDER CHRISTIAN COUNTY OF ILLINOIS TAYLORVILLE ILLINOIS tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF LIZ HOWARD Ms HOWARD Thank you Thank you Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and Members of the Committee for holding this hearing and providing me with the opportunity to testify about the ongoing efforts to secure voting systems across the country and the challenges to this progress stemming from a lack of vendor oversight Today’s unprecedented hearing is a much appreciated continuation of this Committee’s work to improve the security of our Nation’s election infrastructure and an important step towards comprehensive vendor oversight to address the significant security gaps that remain Today I hope to convey three main points First election vendors play a critical role in our democracy but have received little or no congressional oversight Second despite this lack of oversight significant progress has been made in improving election security since 2016 Third there’s still more to do to further strengthen our election systems ahead of the 2020 election and beyond Congress has a critical role to play in that process including oversight of the vendors that are so important to the security and accuracy of our elections The absence of Federal oversight negatively impacts election officials’ ability to further strengthen our election infrastructure and is felt most acutely in times of crisis as I know from my own experience In 2017 roughly months before a high-profile election paperless voting machines used across Virginia were publicly hacked at DEFCON and a password for one of these machines was publicly reported Even though I was the deputy commissioner of elections I didn’t know if the vendors knew about the vulnerabilities exploited by the hackers if the vendors had taken any steps to address these vulnerabilities who owned or controlled the vendors or if they would promptly and fully respond to any of my questions as they are not—as they were not then and are not now—subject to comprehensive Federal oversight In no other subsector designated as critical infrastructure are private vendors allowed to serve critical functions without common- VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00072 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 67 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING sense oversight Election officials voters and the public deserve answers to questions about our election system vendors While the ongoing work of election officials in this Committee has resulted in significant election security progress across the country these efforts are no substitute for comprehensive oversight of the wide variety of election vendors that play a critical role in the administration of our elections yet are currently subject to little or no Federal oversight or regulation The comprehensive vendor oversight framework we recommend applies not only to voting system vendors but also to vendors that program and maintain those systems that count and tally votes and build manage and maintain voter registration databases and electronic poll books that allow election officials to judge who is eligible to vote I was gratified to hear the CEOs of the three leading voting machine vendors embrace these recommendations for comprehensive reform earlier today We hope that Congress can move quickly to adopt these reforms but understand that it may take a while to fully implement them In my written testimony I outline the steps that we recommend Congress take in the short term which include oversight of the $425 million recently allocated for election security paying particular attention to if the money is being spent on building robust resiliency plans to detect and recover from successful breaches to ensure that regardless of whether there is a successful attack voters will still be able to vote and have their vote counted accurately In addition I included steps that Congress should take to protect our election infrastructure after 2020 which include expansion of the EAC’s oversight role to include more robust monitoring and disclosure of the security practices and ownership of election system vendors While the lack of vendor oversight is a significant concern and this Committee and election officials across the country have much work to do before and after the 2020 election it’s important to acknowledge the progress made in strengthening our election infrastructure including our voting systems since 2016 For example almost half of the States using paperless voting machines in 2016 have transitioned to now using paper-based voting systems Congress has allocated almost—a little bit over actually—$800 million to bolster election security in the States Awareness of the risk to our election infrastructure has increased dramatically and election officials across the country are implementing a variety of measures to make our voting systems more resilient and secure Thank you for your time I look forward to your questions The statement of Ms Howard follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00073 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00074 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 115 here 41318A 032 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 68 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00075 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset 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Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 158 here 41318A 075 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 111 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00118 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 159 here 41318A 076 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 112 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00119 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 160 here 41318A 077 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 113 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00120 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 161 here 41318A 078 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 114 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00121 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 162 here 41318A 079 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 115 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00122 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 163 here 41318A 080 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 116 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00123 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 164 here 41318A 081 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 117 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00124 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 165 here 41318A 082 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 118 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00125 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 166 here 41318A 083 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 119 120 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Dr Blaze we’d love to hear from you tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF MATT BLAZE Mr BLAZE Thank you Chairperson Lofgren and Ranking Member Davis for convening this hearing on the urgently important topic of securing America’s elections I come here today as a computer scientist who’s spent the better part of the last quarter-century studying election system security As you are well aware the integrity of elections across the U S depends heavily on the integrity of computers and software systems that are embedded across our election infrastructure Complex software lies at the heart not just of vote-casting equipment used at polling places but also the information systems used by local authorities to manage everything from voter registration records to the tallying and reporting of election results to the creation of ballots and so forth Unfortunately much of this infrastructure has proven dangerously vulnerable to tampering and attack and in some cases in ways that cannot be easily detected or corrected after the fact These vulnerabilities can create practical avenues for corrupt candidates or foreign adversaries to do everything from cause largescale disruption on election day to potentially undetectably alter election outcomes in some cases Now for the purpose of my testimony it’s helpful to consider voting machines and election management infrastructure separately Let me begin with the voting equipment itself To be blunt it’s a widely recognized indisputable fact that every piece of computerized voting equipment in use at polling places today can be easily compromised in ways that have the potential to disrupt election operations compromise firmware and software and potentially alter vote tallies in the absence of other safeguards This is partly a consequence of historically poor design and implementation by equipment vendors but it’s ultimately a reflection of the nature of complex software It’s simply beyond the state of the art to build software systems that can reliably withstand targeted attack by a determined adversary in this kind of an environment The vulnerabilities are real they’re serious and absent a surprising and very fundamental breakthrough in my field which I would welcome but I don’t see coming soon probably inevitable Fortunately —this is not all bad news—there is now overwhelming consensus among experts on how we can conduct reliable elections despite the inherent unreliability of the underlying software This requires two things The first is that the voting technology retain a reliable paper record that reflects the voters’ intended choices Fortunately equipment that has this property exists today and it’s in fact the simplest of the voting equipment available And I refer here to paper ballots that have been preferably marked by hand when possible that are fed into an optical scan ballot reader when the vote is cast and the original voter ballot is retained But this isn’t sufficient by itself because the software in the ballot scanners is itself vulnerable to tampering or error VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00126 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 121 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING The second requirement is that the election be reliably audited to ensure that the software is reporting the correct outcomes of each race as defined by the ballots that the voter has marked And there’s a statistically rigorous technique called risk-limiting audits that you’ve heard about that can accomplish this effectively and quickly But this has to be routinely performed after every election in order to provide meaningful assurance Unfortunately only a handful of States currently conduct these audits And it’s urgent that both of these safeguards—paper ballots and risk-limiting audits—recognized by experts universally as essential for election integrity be adopted quickly and widely throughout the Nation The second technology is the election management infrastructure in use by jurisdictions We give most of the attention to vulnerabilities in voting machines but that’s not the whole story Each of the more than 5 000 jurisdictions responsible for running elections across the Nation must maintain a number of critical information systems that are attractive targets for disruption by adversaries Most important of these are voter registration databases the systems that report final results and so forth Unfortunately there are even fewer standards for how to secure these systems The administration of these systems varies widely And the threats against these systems are often even more acute than the threats against individual voting systems You know just as we don’t expect the local sheriff to singlehandedly defend against military ground invasions we shouldn’t expect county election IT managers to defend against cyber-attacks by foreign intelligence services but that’s precisely what we’ve been asking them to do Thank you again for your attention to these important issues This is a vitally important topic and I’m grateful that you’ve invited me to testify The statement of Mr Blaze follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00127 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00128 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 171 here 41318A 084 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 122 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00129 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 172 here 41318A 085 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 123 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00130 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 173 here 41318A 086 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 124 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00131 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 174 here 41318A 087 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 125 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00132 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 175 here 41318A 088 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 126 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00133 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 176 here 41318A 089 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 127 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00134 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 177 here 41318A 090 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 128 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00135 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 178 here 41318A 091 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 129 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00136 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 179 here 41318A 092 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 130 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00137 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 180 here 41318A 093 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 131 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00138 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 181 here 41318A 094 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 132 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00139 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 182 here 41318A 095 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 133 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00140 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 183 here 41318A 096 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 134 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00141 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 184 here 41318A 097 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 135 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00142 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 185 here 41318A 098 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 136 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00143 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 186 here 41318A 099 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 137 138 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Dr Blaze Dr Gilbert tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF JUAN GILBERT Mr GILBERT Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis Members of the Committee I am honored to share with you my expertise in voting system security accessibility and usability I have worked in elections for more than 15 years conducting research developing innovative technologies and conducting studies with various election stakeholders In 2003 I created Prime III an open-source universally designed system To my knowledge Prime III is the only open-source voting system to be used in State Federal and local elections in the United States New Hampshire adopted Prime III renamed it as ‘‘One4All ’’ and Butler County Ohio uses it as their accessible absentee system Furthermore voting machine vendors have created ballot-marking systems modeled after Prime III While I am appearing today in my capacity as an expert in voting systems I would like to take this opportunity to share some key recommendations from the 2018 National Academies of Science Engineering and Medicine consensus report titled ‘‘Securing the Vote Protecting American Democracy ’’ I was a member of the committee that authored the report but I would emphasize that any opinions expressed about the report and its recommendations are my own and do not necessarily represent positions of the National Academies ‘‘Securing the Vote’’ was the result of a two-year National Academies study conducted by experts from election administration and policy cybersecurity accessibility and law Over the course of the study the committee reviewed extensive background materials It held five meetings where invited experts spoke to the committee about a range of topics including voter registration accessibility voting technologies market impediments to technological innovation cybersecurity post-election audits and the education and training of election workers The committee did not have access to classified information but instead relied on information in the public domain including State and Federal Government reports published academic literature testimony from congressional hearings and presentations to the committee Issues related to voting such as voter identification laws foreign and domestic disinformation and other similar topics were outside the charge of the committee and therefore are not included in the report The Academies’ report recommended that elections be conducted using human-readable paper ballots It said that these ballots may be marked by hand or by machine using a ballot-marking device and that they may be counted by hand or by machine using an optical scanner The report further recommended that recounts and audits should be conducted by human inspection of the human-readable portion of the paper ballots and that voting machines that do not provide the capacity for independent auditing—for example machines that VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00144 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 139 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING do not produce voter-verifiable paper audit trails—should be removed from service as soon as possible Currently there’s no known way to secure a digital ballot At this time any election that does not employ paper ballots cannot be secure Therefore the report recommended that internet voting and specifically the electronic return of marked ballots should not be used at this time The Academies’ report also recommended that vendors and election officials should be required to report any detected efforts to probe tamper with or interfere with election systems including voter registration systems Each State should require a comprehensive system of post-election audits of processes and outcomes A detailed set of cybersecurity best practices for State and local election officials should be continuously developed and maintained Congress should provide funding to help State and local governments modernize their election systems and improve cybersecurity capabilities Congress should authorize and provide funding for a major research initiative on voting Recommendation 7 3 of the Academies’ report says that ‘‘Congress should authorize and fund immediately a major initiative on voting that supports basic applied and translational research relevant to the administration conduct and performance of elections This initiative should include academic centers to foster collaboration both across disciplines and with State and local election officials and industry ’’ This recommendation is bold calls for research and development that provides solutions to issues identified in the report I believe that a minimum of $25 million in funding over a five -year period would be needed to establish a national center As a Nation we have the capacity to build an election system for the future but doing so requires focused attention from citizens Federal State and local governments election administrators and innovators in academia and industry It also requires a commitment of appropriate resources Representative democracy only works if all eligible citizens can participate in elections and be confident that their ballots have been accurately cast counted and then tabulated Thank you for the opportunity to be here The statement of Mr Gilbert follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00145 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00146 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 191 here 41318A 100 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 140 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00147 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 192 here 41318A 101 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 141 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00148 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 193 here 41318A 102 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 142 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00149 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 194 here 41318A 103 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 143 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00150 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 195 here 41318A 104 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 144 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00151 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 196 here 41318A 105 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 145 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00152 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 197 here 41318A 106 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 146 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00153 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 198 here 41318A 107 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 147 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00154 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 199 here 41318A 108 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 148 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00155 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 200 here 41318A 109 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 149 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00156 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 201 here 41318A 110 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 150 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00157 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 202 here 41318A 111 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 151 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00158 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 203 here 41318A 112 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 152 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00159 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 204 here 41318A 113 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 153 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00160 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 205 here 41318A 114 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 154 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00161 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 206 here 41318A 115 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 155 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00162 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 207 here 41318A 116 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 156 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00163 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 208 here 41318A 117 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 157 158 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Reverend Spearman we’d love to hear from you tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF REV T ANTHONY SPEARMAN Rev SPEARMAN Good afternoon Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and Committee Members I am indeed honored to be here for unlike the previous participants on these panels I am neither a voting systems vendor nor an expert I’m an activist one who was raised in a household where the vote was held sacred I’m the president of the North Carolina State Conference of Branches of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the only county board of elections member of color from Guilford County North Carolina And while not an expert in election security I rely on the findings of those scientists who are and urge my colleagues on county boards across the Nation to do so as well We must listen to scientists not vendor marketing claims Dr Alex Halderman just published research and finds that electronic ballot-marking devices do not create ballots that can be reasonably audited which is consistent with the recently expanded study by Dr Philip Stark Dr Richard DeMillo and Dr Andrew Appel concluding that electronic ballot-marking devices cannot be relied on to produce elections that assure the will of the people Dr Duncan Buell along with others has studied how voting machines and their allocation can create lines that frustrate and disenfranchise voters Let me hasten to say that I am not anti-technology but I agree with the scientists who argue that election security can be compromised by placing an electronic device between a voter and the ballot While the election security defenses needed to detect and stop cyber-attacks may seem impossibly complex and overwhelming there’s a practical low-tech traditional answer to mitigating the greatest threats assuring that any attacks can be detected and cannot be ultimately achieved or effective That’s where I come in I was first elected to the Guilford County Board of Elections in 2017 for a two-year term and reelected in January 2019 for another two-year term During my first term I was the only member of the board without a legal degree All I had sitting at the table with me was my activism passion for voters and my experience working in elections Prior to my election to a seat on the Guilford County board my volunteerism as a precinct worker began as an election day specialist around 2017 in Catawba County after a growing number of members began venting their frustrations with the voting process Coincidentally this was the same year that tremendous advances for voters occurred in the State of North Carolina Sameday registration began allowing voters to cast ballots during the early-voting period which led to an increase in voter participation during the November 8 2008 Presidential election In Catawba County voters used hand-marked paper ballots In 2014 when I was appointed to a church in Greensboro an opportunity to work at a precinct in Guilford County presented itself VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00164 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 159 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING And there I worked as a judge and on to becoming the chief judge or overseer of FEN1 one of the largest precincts in the county In Guilford County iVotronics or direct recording electronics DREs were in use And among my growing concerns while serving the precinct were problems that arose with the touch-screen or iVotronic devices I was the overseer chief overseer of the sixth-highest voter precinct in Guilford County with 3 800 voters As one of my friends has convinced me the first line of defense is the local county bipartisan election board like the one I sit on in Guilford County North Carolina Across the Nation they are authorities for selecting voting systems and reviewing the ballot tabulations before they certify the election results If voters campaigns political parties and candidates insist that these boards one select only hand-marked paper ballots as standard equipment two maintain ballot chain of custody three distribute an accurate paper backup pollbook to the polls and four conduct vigorous reviews of the election returns and tabulations before certifying cyber- attacks cannot be successful They can’t be prevented but the jurisdiction can recover from them and verify the will of the people I’m talking first line of defense As a first-time witness of the process for voting machine certification I must admit I was highly disturbed that the demonstration was conducted in what I viewed as an inconvenient place off the beaten path for most voters As I drove to the site I became overwhelmed with how un-user-friendly this location was for minorities and as I recall I was the only person of color in attendance But not only that when I reviewed the agenda and saw how the demonstration was to be conducted with the majority of time allotted to county board members and only a few minutes left for the public to view systems I immediately called the director of elections and expressed my displeasure with the setup By the time I arrived the necessary adjustments had been made and everyone moved through the demonstrations together Elections belong to the people and the more the people are included in the process the more we may gain their trust and confidence Thank you for allowing me to share The statement of Rev Spearman follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00165 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00166 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 213 here 41318A 118 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 160 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00167 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 214 here 41318A 119 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 161 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00168 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 215 here 41318A 120 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 162 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00169 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 216 here 41318A 121 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 163 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00170 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 217 here 41318A 122 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 164 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00171 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 218 here 41318A 123 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 165 166 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much Commissioner Palmer tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE DONALD PALMER Mr PALMER Good afternoon Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and Members of the Committee I’m thankful for the opportunity to testify before you today on the important work being done by the United States Election Assistance Commission in preparation for the 2020 Federal elections As prescribed by the Commission’s enabling legislation the Help America Vote Act of 2002 HAVA the EAC is focused on State and local election officials across the United States and providing secure accessible and accurate elections Under that act the EAC works to implement election reforms assist States in certifying voting systems advance voting accessibility disburse HAVA funds and serve as a clearinghouse of election information and best practices in the laboratory of States In pursuit of this mission we collaborate closely with State and local election officials Federal partners and others in the election community I am grateful that the expert and vendor witnesses testifying before you today have shared their insight on the important topic of election security I would like to begin by thanking Congress for your recent efforts to increase funding in this area The addition of $425 million in HAVA grant funds with a 20-percent State match will go a long way toward enhancing election technology and improving security in State and local elections Simultaneously the 40-percent increase in the EAC budget will allow us to bolster existing programs and enhance resources I should note that EAC’s distribution of $380 million in 2018 HAVA funds to the States in the lead-up to the midterm elections was and continues to be critically important to helping officials secure the elections infrastructure I would like to highlight an important update to our testing and certification program The testing and certification program manual allowed for minor de minimis changes software changes without the overhead of a full-blown voting system certification campaign In November of 2019 the EAC’s testing and certification program issued a notice of clarification providing clear guidelines on submitting these minor changes for certification The EAC expects that this process will be used by vendors to rapidly update the security of their systems with the latest software patches and operating system updates Tremendous progress was also made in 2019 toward the adoption of voluntary voting system guidelines what we call VVSG 2 0 VVSG 2 0 will represent a significant leap forward in defining new standards that will serve as the template for the new generation of secure and accessible voting systems The hard work of NIST staff and EAC personnel culminated in the presentations of these draft requirements to the Technical Guidelines Development Committee This committee is now considering the recommendations to the EAC on adoption VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00172 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 167 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING My fellow commissioners and I are committed to a transparent and thorough deliberation on the path to implementing VVSG 2 0 The EAC Standards Board and the Board of Advisors will meet in April of 2020 to consider these new requirements and after their key input it is my hope that the VVSG 2 0 will be finalized and voted on in the upcoming months As the Nation focuses on the 2020 election this year so does the EAC On January 14 we are bringing together election officials and experts in election security and accessibility to kick off our #2020Focus campaign at the National Press Club The topics for discussion will include the security environment the need for enhanced poll-worker training and ensuring accessible elections for all Americans The increased fiscal year 2020 appropriations for the EAC will allow us to fill critical staffing vacancies within the agency as well as bolstering our staff to meet rising demands I am pleased to report that the EAC is in the process of identifying candidates for a new general counsel and additional communication personnel The statutory process for identifying candidates for executive director is well underway We also plan to add staff in our testing and certification program Expansions to this program will enhance the capability of handling frequent voting system security updates through the de minimis process while fulfilling its other duties of conducting training for election administrators performing on-site audits of voting system manufacturing and test lab facilities and overseeing a risklimiting audit assistance program HAVA has set forth an ambitious agenda for the EAC one rooted in protecting the very foundation of our Nation’s democracy Despite very real and persistent resource challenges in recent years the EAC has fulfilled its obligation and even expanded the support it provides to election administrators and voters With strong support from the Congress in the recent appropriations cycle and the reestablishment of a quorum of commissioners the EAC is ready for its next chapter We look forward to working with the Congress as we continue our efforts to help America vote I am happy to answer any questions you may have following today’s testimony The statement of Mr Palmer follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00173 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00174 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 223 here 41318A 124 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 168 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00175 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 224 here 41318A 125 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 169 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00176 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 225 here 41318A 126 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 170 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00177 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 226 here 41318A 127 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 171 172 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you very much And last but certainly not least Mr Gianasi tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING TESTIMONY OF MIKE GIANASI Mr GIANASI Thank you Chairperson Lofgren Ranking Member Davis and all the other honored Committee Members here today thank you for the invitation to come and speak before you As stated previously Ranking Member Davis and I are friends We’ve grown up in the same town It’s in central Illinois It’s the town of Taylorville which is the county seat of the county of Christian in Illinois Also as stated previously I was appointed as the county clerk and recorder in 2017 upon the retirement of that previous clerk and recorder Subsequently I was elected as the county clerk and recorder in 2018 of which I currently serve as today The introduction of my tenure as the election authority was rather swift and at that time being in the 2017–2018 timeframe focused on an increase in cybersecurity-related responsibilities I had not been a participant in this arena prior to that time period so although there were a lot of discussions and a lot of other situations that had occurred previously I was not a party to that However as the new election authority it has become my responsibility to take into account all of these situations and now all of the increasing responsibilities as the days go by As the election authority my primary concern on the topic of elections involves several categories one being physical security of course The election equipment that I have custody of is stored away in my courthouse in a locked room That election equipment by the way—I might as well make this comment—is being delivered today because as of recently I have been approved the ability to obtain new election equipment My previous election equipment was the AccuVote and TSx-type model equipment from Diebold which is no longer being used by Christian County We have now upgraded our equipment to the new equipment provided by Unisyn Voting Solutions Incorporated who is not here today In regards to meeting with my election vendor who I have trusted for many many years and previous clerks have trusted for many years the choice of this election equipment was the correct choice and a sound choice The election equipment that I have chosen is their equipment that provides a paper trail as required by the State of Illinois for all votes cast whether it be cast manually through the paper ballot or using the touch-screen device which produces a paper ballot in human-readable form at the end of the process for which the person then has the opportunity to review that and then they will themselves place that ballot into the ballot box for tabulation Some of the other logistics that I have to also worry about include staffing of election judges It is very difficult to always staff my election judges adequately but we do the best we can Christian County not being a large jurisdiction has 30 precincts and of those 30 precincts we have 23 physical polling locations so five judges per precinct And it sometimes is rather difficult but we do VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00178 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 173 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING our best to try to make sure that we have as much staffing as we can at those locations The election equipment as far as custody it stays in that locked room It’s only accessed by myself or my staff whenever we need to do any upgrades as far as programming which is involving of course our election vendor because I do have that service as well And then we release that equipment to the election judges prior to the election so that they can take it out get it to the precincts and then they will bring it back at the end of the election cycle The cybersecurity-related responsibilities as I described before have become increasingly noticeable I am a member of the MS– ISAC the EI–ISAC and the HSIN I receive notices on a daily basis multiple times a day through emails from all of these organizations notifying me of vulnerabilities primarily to software packages but occasionally to other situations that would just allow for us to be on a heightened awareness of other attacks possibly directed to our firewall The situation as far as funding of course as a local election authority we do receive funding through the HAVA grants which is funneled from the Federal money through the State down to us And I can talk about that in more detail later if you would like And that is all I have on my statement today Thank you for your invitation The statement of Mr Gianasi follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00179 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00180 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 230 here 41318A 128 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 174 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00181 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert offset folio 231 here 41318A 129 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 175 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 176 The CHAIRPERSON Thank you And thanks to all of you for your testimony as well as your written statement We now have time for Members to ask a few questions I’ll first turn to the Ranking Member Mr Davis for his five minutes of questions Mr DAVIS of Illinois Thank you Madam Chairperson And thanks to all the witnesses Very compelling testimony Mr Gianasi I’ll start with you since you came out here at my request Can you tell us—I understand you recently purchased some new machines for Christian County Mr GIANASI Correct Mr DAVIS of Illinois What decisions led you to purchase those specific machines Mr GIANASI The original machines that Christian County had been using were purchased in 2004 And those machines like I said before the AccuVotes and such TSX were purchased using HAVA funds that were available at that time Those machines although doing well up through and including the most recent elections have seen better days They have outdated hardware that is no longer able to physically provide a dark print on the ballot—— Mr DAVIS of Illinois So they were outdated You—— Mr GIANASI Yes Mr DAVIS of Illinois continuing Needed to get some new ones Did you use HAVA funds to get these new machines Mr GIANASI I did not have any HAVA funds available to get these new machines I was able to work through the county board who had general obligation bond money available for this project—— Mr DAVIS of Illinois How much did that cost you Mr GIANASI I have signed what is a six-year lease on these machines I chose not to purchase And that six-year lease approximately $322 000 Mr DAVIS of Illinois And knowing the size of our county that’s a pretty big impact to the county budget Mr GIANASI As of Tuesday I have 21 212 registered voters in my entire county Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay Great When you made the decision to purchase those machines you didn’t call anybody at the Federal Government and ask permission right Mr GIANASI I did not Mr DAVIS of Illinois Okay You mentioned in your testimony too about the Illinois Cyber Navigator Program It’s a program I’ve talked about in this hearing room many times I think it’s a great partnership between the U S Department of Homeland Security and the State of Illinois and in turn all local election officials like yourself How’s this program been beneficial to your role as an election administrator in Christian County Mr GIANASI The Cyber Navigator Program is beneficial I believe to all election authorities and in particular those that do not have the resources to maintain any form of IT staff in particular or those that just have an inability to continue to monitor all of the VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00182 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 177 problems that are coming down the line and then be able to provide solutions to those problems Mr DAVIS of Illinois So you don’t have a dedicated IT staffer You’re that person right Mr GIANASI Correct We don’t have any IT staff The county does hire an outside IT contractor to perform all IT-related functions including patch updates firewall maintenance email maintenance et cetera Mr DAVIS of Illinois Just for your office or for the whole county all the offices Mr GIANASI For the whole county all offices Mr DAVIS of Illinois So the treasurer the county clerk the sheriff everybody right Mr GIANASI Correct Mr DAVIS of Illinois Now do you find that this Cyber Navigator Program this partnership between DHS funded by your Federal tax dollars is good assistance to small rural counties like your own Mr GIANASI I do because again with the changes that are happening the Cyber Navigator who now is partnering with the county has given us the ability to promote different aspects of cybersecurity-related awareness He’s also currently directly assisting with the installation of new hardware which will provide secure access between our voter registration database server and the Illinois State Board of Elections’ database server through what’s called the Illinois Century Network Mr DAVIS of Illinois Excellent Thank you for your testimony today Thanks for being here Mike Great to see you Mr Palmer while I have some time left one major element of the election infrastructure that I believe remains unaddressed are electronic pollbooks It’s my understanding that they’re not currently regulated by HAVA the Help America Vote Act in any way Are there security risks associated with electronic pollbooks Mr PALMER Yes there is And you’re right it’s not regulated currently under HAVA although there are some instances where there may be some interaction with the voting system I think the EAC is looking at electronic pollbooks as perhaps there’s a way the EAC could do a review and sort of approval process for electronic pollbooks There’s a growing use of electronic pollbooks across the country It’s not universal but more and more counties are using them because of the ease and the ability the accuracy of electronic pollbooks But there are some downsides to that and so the EAC feels that we have an opportunity here Mr DAVIS of Illinois While I have a few seconds left can you give us one suggestion or two suggestions of what you think we could do to update HAVA And also if I could ask the EAC to give us an opportunity to address some of the concerns you may have with HAVA in case this Committee and this institution wants to readdress what was passed years ago Mr PALMER Well I think that there’s an opportunity for the EAC at the Federal Government level to sort of do a review and VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00183 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 178 certification program for other election systems beyond voting systems But the EAC and the commissioners we would love to talk with the Committee as a whole and talk about ways that we believe at the EAC things that could be improved from a fundamental level Mr DAVIS of Illinois Right Thank you The CHAIRPERSON The gentleman’s time has expired I turn to Mrs Davis the gentlelady from California for five minutes Mrs DAVIS of California Thank you Thank you very much to all of you for being here and for your experience in dealing with all of these issues Dr Spearman I wanted to just ask you we’ve talked about the access issue and you brought to the election personnel the concerns that you were having and it sounds like they responded to you But I’m wondering with all of these issues what you feel sometimes gets lost sort of on the radar screen in terms of what the needs of people of voters really are in their communities that doesn’t get addressed very well Rev SPEARMAN Well as I stated—and thank you for your question Congresswoman Davis As I stated I have—I guess I would respond to that by saying on the county board of Guilford County I am a rarity I’m the only African American and I’m the only activist I come with the concerns of the people the concerns of the voter And oftentimes it seems as if the voter has been last on the totem pole And that’s something that I have been advocating for since I’ve been on the board to put the people on the radar Because the elections as far as I’m concerned are the people’s And the more the people the more humans are involved in the process I think the better off we are going to be As far as I am concerned right now our democracy is an aberrant democracy And in order to make that democracy and save our democracy I think the people need to rise up and be counted Mrs DAVIS of California Is there a specific change that you think could or should be made in terms of easier access or again more voting days I don’t know vote by mail if that’s an issue in your area Rev SPEARMAN Well I mean we’ve been fighting for that in North Carolina since 2013 since after Shelby versus Holder and we’re going to continue to fight We just recently won another lawsuit with regard to winning a preliminary injunction for voter photo ID which has already been a lawsuit that we won previously but it seems that the General Assembly continues to come back disguise it in different ways and tries to get it through again So as it relates to access one of the things that I believe would be helpful especially to persons like myself county board members is more education more training for the county board members and just let the county board members know what it is that they are being elected to do Mrs DAVIS of California Thank you Dr Blaze I think it was also mentioned what should be done at this time to try and help with these processes And yet we know that in many cases that’s not going to happen before this next VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00184 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 179 election in 2020 So what is it that you think we really need to be focused on very particularly in terms of hacking of any elections intervention What is it that you’re most worried about Mr BLAZE Sure Well I think you know the things that I’m most worried about are a repeat of some of the types of attacks that we saw in 2016 against larger election infrastructure not just voting machines themselves but the back-end systems that manage voter registration records and so on We’ve been very fortunate that even in 2016 the attacks against our systems had a relatively light touch A determined adversary who wanted to disrupt our elections would have a frighteningly easy task if they wanted to do so And I worry that the over 5 000 election jurisdictions who maintain these systems throughout the country are not uniformly ready to respond to a sophisticated adversary like that So to the extent we can support them that is an urgent priority Mrs DAVIS of California And you mentioned that many counties don’t audit And is that because they feel that they don’t have the resources to do that they don’t have additional funding Or is it just an attitude as well Mr BLAZE Well no I think you know everybody is trying to do their best but risk-limiting audits have not yet penetrated throughout most of the country There are only a handful of States right now that do them More States are starting to explore them To the extent that we can encourage wider adoption of these that will improve things significantly Mrs DAVIS of California Yes Thank you My time is up The CHAIRPERSON Thank you I just have a few follow up questions First I want to thank all of the witnesses but also Dr Gilbert the National Academies’ report was enormously helpful to us and I want to thank you for that It really is the guts of what we ended up putting in our SAFE Act that’s now pending in the Senate Tremendous appreciation for you and the other scientists who worked on it I want to talk about the ballot-marking devices I don’t love these systems On the other hand we need to have a capacity to allow the disability community to exercise their franchise freely and that’s an important element of providing for that I am concerned about the QR codes and barcodes that cannot be read by the voter And so really if you’re checking the paper it really doesn’t prove anything in terms of whether or not the barcode reflects what is on the piece of paper It’s not possible that all of that will be changed between now and election day in November What are your suggestions as computer scientists Dr Blaze and Dr Gilbert for what could be done in the interim about that problem Mr BLAZE So—should I Mr GILBERT Yes Mr BLAZE Okay Ballot-marking devices were originally conceived purely as an assistive technology for voters who couldn’t mark their own ballots for various reasons and were never originally—— VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00185 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 180 The CHAIRPERSON Correct Mr BLAZE continuing Conceived as the primary method for people for voting It took us a bit by surprise that systems that use ballot-marking devices as the primary method of voting were being deployed and purchased by people across the—— The CHAIRPERSON Correct If I—— Mr BLAZE continuing Country but there’s been an—— The CHAIRPERSON Right Mr BLAZE continuing Explosion of research over the last year in whether voters can reliably verify them What we found most recently studied by Alex Halderman’s group in Michigan is that voters don’t appear to be able to reliably confirm that their marks match what their intent was And that’s a significant—raises significant concerns—— The CHAIRPERSON I understand that And it’s like 7 percent of the people actually according to that report Mr BLAZE That’s right The CHAIRPERSON But what do we do about that Ultimately I think we ought to have paper ballots and these marking devices ought to be available to those who need them because of disability purposes Mr BLAZE Right The CHAIRPERSON Between now and when that is achieved what do we do Mr BLAZE The best thing we can do is voter education The Michigan paper has some concrete suggestions on interventions that aren’t perfect but they can at least increase the ability for voters to check And you know it’s simply a matter of the instructions given to voters whether they’re given a personal reminder to check their ballot selections And those appear to make you know a significant—not sufficient but significant difference in how well they’re verified The CHAIRPERSON Dr Gilbert do you have anything to add Mr GILBERT Yes I have a lot to add So to start these studies—I want to make the record clear The studies are saying that people did not verify their ballot they didn’t say they could not verify their ballot So I would recommend going to the Michigan study—notice that the Michigan study said ‘‘Remind the voter to review their ballot ’’ The CHAIRPERSON It goes up to like 70 percent if you remind them Mr GILBERT Yes Well try this ‘‘Would you please verify that your ballot selections were not changed ’’ Rather than ‘‘Review your ballot ’’ Let’s try that The ballot-marking device—there were 16 million voters who voted with a disability in 2016 What was the margin of victory Less than 3 million votes The CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr GILBERT So if we were to design these machines so they are only used by people with disabilities an adversary finds that as a happy day because all you have to do is target a specific group Universal design meaning more people using those machines gives you greater security The likelihood of catching errors increases as a result of that VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00186 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 181 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING I will be honest The universal design when HAVA was created it was designed that each precinct would have at least one accessible voting machine The CHAIRPERSON Correct Mr GILBERT I said that wasn’t possible because you’re going to have a separate-but-equal connotation And they said you can’t have one machine that everyone uses So we built it Later this year we’ll have an announcement about a transparent voting machine a new innovation that will address these issues So in the Academies’ report we recommended that we have a national center to do research around these things That is a necessity This is an arms race It’s not just going to happen and end To suggest that we should go back to hand-marked paper ballots is the same as saying we had an accident on the highway and people unfortunately died so we should return to horses and carriages The CHAIRPERSON My time has expired But I do want to just mention Ms Howard you have decertified machines that didn’t meet standards We know that we’re not going to get to where we need to be between now and November Do you have any suggestions on what interim steps we could take to make the systems safer Ms HOWARD Well yes Thank you for the question So two basic things right Voter education about how to use the machines is very important And additionally there must be postelection audits which rely on the human-readable portion of the ballots even if the ballots do include barcodes The CHAIRPERSON Thank you My time has expired All time has expired I would like to thank each of you for your testimony Note that because we didn’t get a chance ask all our questions we may follow up with written questions for you and in that case we’d ask that you answer promptly The information follows VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00187 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00188 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 243 here 41318A 130 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 182 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00246 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 301 here 41318A 188 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 240 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00247 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 302 here 41318A 189 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 241 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00248 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 303 here 41318A 190 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 242 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00249 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 304 here 41318A 191 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 243 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00250 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 305 here 41318A 192 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 244 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00277 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 332 here 41318A 219 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 271 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00278 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 333 here 41318A 220 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 272 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00279 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 334 here 41318A 221 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 273 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00280 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 335 here 41318A 222 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 274 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00281 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 336 here 41318A 223 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 275 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 296 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00303 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 358 here 41318A 245 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 297 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00304 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 359 here 41318A 246 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 298 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00305 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 360 here 41318A 247 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 299 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00306 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 361 here 41318A 248 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 300 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00307 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 362 here 41318A 249 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 301 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00308 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 363 here 41318A 250 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 302 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00309 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 364 here 41318A 251 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 303 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00310 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 365 here 41318A 252 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 304 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00311 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 366 here 41318A 253 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 305 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00312 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 367 here 41318A 254 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 306 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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A318 Insert graphic folio 378 here 41318A 265 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 317 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00324 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 379 here 41318A 266 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 318 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00325 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 380 here 41318A 267 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 319 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00326 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 381 here 41318A 268 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 320 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00327 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 382 here 41318A 269 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 321 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00328 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 383 here 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DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 327 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00334 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 389 here 41318A 276 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 328 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00335 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 390 here 41318A 277 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 329 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00336 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 391 here 41318A 278 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 330 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00337 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 392 here 41318A 279 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 331 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00338 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 393 here 41318A 280 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 332 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00339 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 394 here 41318A 281 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 333 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00340 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 395 here 41318A 282 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 334 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00341 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 396 here 41318A 283 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 335 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00342 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 397 here 41318A 284 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 336 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00343 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 398 here 41318A 285 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 337 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 404 here 41318A 291 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 343 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00350 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 405 here 41318A 292 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 344 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00351 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 406 here 41318A 293 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 345 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00352 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 407 here 41318A 294 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 346 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00353 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 408 here 41318A 295 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 347 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00354 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 409 here 41318A 296 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 348 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00355 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 410 here 41318A 297 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 349 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00356 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 411 here 41318A 298 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 350 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00357 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 412 here 41318A 299 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 351 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00358 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 413 here 41318A 300 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 352 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00359 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 414 here 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DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 358 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00365 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 420 here 41318A 307 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 359 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00366 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 421 here 41318A 308 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 360 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00367 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 422 here 41318A 309 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 361 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00368 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 423 here 41318A 310 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 362 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00369 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 424 here 41318A 311 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 363 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00370 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 425 here 41318A 312 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 364 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00371 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 426 here 41318A 313 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 365 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00372 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 427 here 41318A 314 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 366 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00373 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 428 here 41318A 315 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 367 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00374 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 429 here 41318A 316 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 368 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00432 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 487 here 41318A 374 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 426 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00433 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 488 here 41318A 375 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 427 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00434 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 489 here 41318A 376 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 428 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00435 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 490 here 41318A 377 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 429 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00436 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 491 here 41318A 378 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 430 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00463 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 518 here 41318A 405 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 457 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00464 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 519 here 41318A 406 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 458 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00465 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 520 here 41318A 407 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 459 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00466 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 521 here 41318A 408 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 460 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00467 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 522 here 41318A 409 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 461 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 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Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 528 here 41318A 415 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 467 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00474 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 529 here 41318A 416 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 468 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00475 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 530 here 41318A 417 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 469 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00476 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 531 here 41318A 418 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 470 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00477 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 532 here 41318A 419 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 471 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00478 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 533 here 41318A 420 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 472 VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00479 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318 Insert graphic folio 534 here 41318A 421 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING 473 474 tkelley on DSKBCP9HB2PROD with HEARING The CHAIRPERSON And we do thank you once again for your service here as witnesses in helping us do a better job in securing our election systems for this all-important 2020 election And this hearing is without objection now adjourned Whereupon at 12 43 p m the Committee was adjourned VerDate Sep 11 2014 22 20 Nov 24 2020 Jkt 041318 PO 00000 Frm 00480 Fmt 6633 Sfmt 6602 E HR OC A318 XXX A318