· · _ · · _· - · - 1-· ·· ADMIRAL BURKE'S CONVERSATION WITH SECRETARY FRANKE 12 AUG 60 ADM BURKE I have had a rough time in the last couple of days knows this except Nobody Claude Ricketts who was there He doesn't know what happened yesterday except in very general terms They asked us especially not to debrief anybody I also told Jim Russell very generally what was happening in case anything happened But nobody else in the Navy knows it at all knows anything about it although they are curious as hell Or I put out the word not to speculate and not be curious--just hoping they I' will have patience 1 ' But Tom came down with a kproposal Wednesday after- 11 I had heard he was going to And they came down with a i proposal to give to SAC the responsibility for making out the I noon target list--individual targets--not complexes--which would be nothing like 2009 And to make out the integrated operation plans--that he would have a deputy from another Service of his choice--he would recommend that that would be from another Service That there would be staffs furnished--some people for his staff from the other Services the other And there would be representatives of Unified Commands in SAC's headquarters MR FRANKE Permanently or just for this job ADM BURKE For this job--permanent job done all the time They would h ve to be right there MR FRANKE Constant changes ADld BURKE Yes Now he has done this I am sure-- don't see bow he can believe that is good thing--what It would have to be He is ignoring the fundamental SAC has done in the past 1 They have never followed ' rr a c c 1c RJ-- -·· - I- 1 -- through with the Joint Chiefs policies to Well sure they ought to he says well they ought But the Joint Chiefs and the Secretary of Defense himself have not made SAC amenable to control Libby was kicked out for telling the truth--just exactly what Libby said was going to happen Be was dumb for mentioning names But Power who did not tell the truth is still in the Service So what has happened in the past--there are a lot of things like that--but Tom ignoresthat and says he does Because he says he cannot build his bases on distrust And he is I right He would have this operational plan--he has got some policy statements there which are pretty oad--he has it in his 1 policy planning--operational plan that the plan would include a list of all the targets which would be hit i That it would ' determine the weight of the attack In other words the Titan bomb order would be placed and the numbers of bombs which in effect determines the atomin weapons requirement And SAC is about ten times as high as anybody else--very much higher not ten times He would determine--he would integrate in detail the details of corridors timing of the attack the ECM's everything though that would mean that they could and SAC will I think go so far as to position the carriers in the ocean--say you stay right here Or that you will stay within your corridors can make it very tough Now worse than that it does not allow any flexibility for conducting attacks those things In other words they SAC itself does not follow They have a general rule but they do not follow it 2 This would give SAC-- think it completely abrogates the responsibilities of the Joint Chiefs of Staffi in spite of the fact that the Joint Chiefs of Staff would get to review this can't make out the thing they can't review it But if they Another point to this thing is that Tom is going to have all the Joint Chiefs go out and stay for three whole days to review this thing not review the thing in three months by myself to analyze this stuff 600 people up there I could It takes a staff It takes three months to work it out with Nobody else can do it because they have the brains And they are going to stake the Joint Chiefs of Staff out there to review it It is a snow job It is a complete snow job Tom ought to know that But I could not go out there and kick And neither could anybody else because you could not know what the score is The Joint i Chiefs of Staff would abrogate their responsibilities absolutely and SAC would be running the general war That is the first thing Now Tom does not believe that He says the Joint Chiefs of Staff ought to I said you set it dup so they can't The next thing was the effect on Unified Commanders Because this operational plan has to be followed in detail--the details that are in there--the forces of the commanders that are participating in that--they are rigid You take the atomic delivery forces--you take the carriers--they ante up the carriers-then their plans have to be rotated around this plan And all the other plans have to be rotated around this plan and you have just are froze it And you cut out--not only for those forces but for all other forces Not all of them but most of them are rigid then all of your plans are rigid 3 q If the plans Ii your plans are f _ fOP E@ ti • - l U L_ l a •I i • _ • - •• •• - - C ·· l - - - a• '-· U • _ • i l - I fl ex i bl e and they are continually modified by CinCSAC every morning say and their plans are changed then your plans are in a state of flux and all the other plans have to be in a state of flux Each one is dependent upon this plan ax And it all has to go back to Omaha for control And then of course it has its effect on NATO allies--may have I think it would Tom presented this thing--and a lot of other things too--I do not have a copy of it He did not leave it this and then all the people agreed with it except me He presented And the Marines--Dave ldR FRANKE Did the Army agree with it ADM BURKE Yes the Army agreed with it because they think it can be controlled because of the Deputy out there you see They I said they would put some very good Army officers in--and we would put some Naval officers in bug in a piece of plastic But it is just like putting a little The plastic encases the bug absorved a hope ·I The bug does not control the plastic In other words these people could be There might not be There is a hope in it There is Even if this group is honest-- am using words now that I did not use down there--even if they turned out the very best plan they can it is still so rigid that it has a lot of very bad things in it MR FRANKE Suppose you get a disagreement ADM BURKE Well if you get a disagreement the disagreement is settled by SAC--by the Commander of SAC--but it is highlighted in the report to the Joint Chiefs of Staff So the Joint Chiefs of 11 Staff get their report three or four months later and 011 ai' °'' ' •·t1 l a whole series of little disagreements They will taketl em'fi U ll 4 DECl __ I i A- C1'F' I r- ••• • I ••· 1 and they will be split and go up to SecDef to be settled How are they going They will be settled in favor of SAC Tom I think h i s sold his soul there and I don't think he wanted it I fought this pretty hard Tom got very much distressed with me Tom is xiippiag Burt I think The night before he had a meeting on the SEQUOIA in which he had the White House people--Goodpaster John Eisenhower Bryce Harlow I think I heard about this from Noel Gayler who went--who expected to go to a social meeting They talked about this somewhat although there was a lot of politics Noelcame up and told me the next morning that he was distressed Be did not know anything about this He was distressed because Tom said that he knew that I was going to the President--but I would lose Of course he lined the thing up pretty well I don't know whether he talked with the President or not but anyway he ah ad the Presidential Advisors there briefing that night And he gave them a good They did not offer anything one way or another He talked around this thing x quite a bit guess To a lot of people I So I said that I wanted to see the President on this thing That hurt Tom He thought I ought not to want to So I went up yesterday and I was prepared to turn in my suit and I thought during the course of the conversation I might have to In fact it might be advisabe Lemnitzer came up afterwards--after the meeting on Wednesday and told me that the only reason that he went along with this was he thought it could be controlled of the incidents of the Army and the Air Force do you think you re going to control that these things Like the that you 5 I went over some And I said You can't control will Force is take it away from you I cited what hey were doing with atomic weapons--what SAC has done He said I will be Chairman He said well I know We can keep it under control him what I was going to do with the President sa don't We need you around here I said this is an important 1bl ng said would it help if I went You are neutral I told He said for God's You will be a big help He said I agree with you He I said no I don't think it would You would accept this In the discussion down with Tom he went farther than he would have had to to accept it I mean he supported Tom pretty strongly not It would not So I said you had better do any good to have him go So yesterday when we went over there--we went over around 10 15 and we stayed for about two hours Tom laid out his proposal--the policy kpart of it--not the other part--he had 3 or 4 papers He discussed from the top of it that there would not be a Strategic Command but that all the rest was an Air Force thing Basing some of his argument on making one statement that the Joint Staff had neither the manning capability nor the equipment to do these things They both had to be done together I read a statement which I had written in longhand last night--the night before last-will_ give which I glllCft to you if you can read it I doubt if you can read it because I was wr ting so late at night and I was pooped The President naturally because Tom was there-Douglas was there and Twining was there--all violently opposed to it The President said he agreed with Tom in general with the thing in general He agreed Twining made some pretty strong state- ments about the Navy's recalcitrants--the Navy putting its forces under Unified Commanders 6 CCC C'I c -n 0 1 · • ra -ft' · i c - · -• _ _ - r 1 t- t 1 ·· I• ' 1 A ' • 1 _ LL _ I • r- I •• - ' I r the Navy was the only Service J who had all of its combat forces under the Unified Commanders this thing He brought out the Navy would wreck And I said that is not a fair accusation I said if it will work we would like to see it work but it won't work the way it is set up I am afraid Tom went backwards and forwards--me arguing against the 3 of them The President got a litte irked I think because it took a long time--and I wasn't giving It looked to me like Tom was about to say once either you accept it or else You have got to have a team and there was a lot of x play about teamwork I didn't give an inch I agreed as I always have that a single operational plan is good providing it does not have the details providing that it gives the Unified Commanders a task and let them do it to the best of their abilities Guarantee to do the task That it can be done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff there should be a master target list I agree that My idea of what comes out of those papers-- tkxt and what Tom thinks will come out of these are two--Tom thinks they will come out the same paper be different paper They will If the Joint Staff makes them they will be a different Twining kept saying that I would ensure that this thing did not work if it went into the Joint Staff We did not want to make this thing work Pretty strong accusations which surprised me provoked and hurt a little Tom also got xxixxxie but he did not intend People sometimes say things they don't mean It ended up where I fought my--for God's sake don't make the final decision on this now out of it so Tom thinks it is going to be small list lt is 6 oing to be a big list the Unified You don't know what is roming Commanders I think it 7 I don't think Tom thinks it won't affect r- · ll ijt • will and seriou3fh l'l W •- r -- r _ ti HJC --- rl -t '_ know Let's see Let's try one of these things The President not The President said he would make the final decision bought it now But that we would make th is list--He wanted to make the final decision before he left office Of course all three of these people are all for the list--for doing it this way Tom will do everything he can of course--he has got to to drown me to drown me He has got But I will fight like hell in or out of the Service I realize it is completely ineffective outside That thing has got to be good because if SAC gets control of this thing the number of atomic weapons will be tremendous and they will be the wrong kind of atomic weapons tremendous The numbers of fiorses will be There will be thousands and thousands of Minutemen They will control the budget They will control everything and they will wreck-- am sure they will wreck everything in the rest of it if they can And the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Secretary of Defense and nobody else can stop it because they are the ones it figured that b ave the figures And they are the only ones who have the figures In ayear of this stuff--you can never undig it Grave And the President won't have the guts any more than the harm past Presidents have had the guts--because these people will then be entrenched dug The systems will be laid The grooves will be And the power will be there because the money will be there The electronic industry and all of those things this country at all If we are not careful Tom does not think to be done I think he is abrogating his own paver obsessed with one thing We will wri eck I think he is He has been praised so much for getting these things off the hooks that he wants to get it off the books And the only way he can get it off 8 ---o fi i IPDr - · -·-- - f -- • uu 1- rit f - f - l L 1 Service with the Air Force is to give them what they want The S Air Force is working on the system--you either do it my way or we wreck it And Tom will give them their way not realize that and I did not say that He does But I think that is it Tom I think will do everything he can to get this thing through of course MR FRANKEX He has to It is his plan ADM BURKE I am in a very tough spot- the Navy is But I don't know what we can do MR FRANKE A very basic fact about this is that if you had complete confidence in SAC it still would not work but you would be this thing of--Tom won't accept this ADM BURKE I don't think he believes it No be doesn't believe it are neairly all Air Force people He had this party He listens to Brown They This plan is not the one he wrote but I can see Brown's writiLg in the thing Part of that is SAC's know anything about it It cam e from Power He said Pa ver did not The bell Power didn't I a ' sure that Tom didn't tell him but Brown did M xxXR Jtllxxxx Or got the facts from him Got what they wanted I am goiig to have to go down there and fight like hell I think For a long time All I would have to do is just mention this to our people and they would rise in wrath They would ruin themselves But they have got to know sooner or later The thing that is coming up now how are they going to do this I said that you have got to do it the same way that you would do it regularly how are you going to get people I said order them They said So we are now-- p ople cion 't kno hy--but I am preic ring a l is t of all · e J- vy people who have talent in this direction and there r t k -- H 1 F i 1lui f' -• - -w· J _ - •• z r __ ' - -i ----• f of them We will have to put some of them up in SAC and some of them here to be prepared to check this thing There are 3 Flag 0fficers--4 possibilities--Leo•itzer also saidwe could have the There Deputy and work with us %x would be Riley who has had some experience but I don't think he is the best one some experience Tom Moorer Pirie has had Butch Parker who has had a lot of experience I may have to pull Tom out of where ie is to do this send Butch Parker there who bas had some machine experience and who knows a lot about it and put Tom Moorer right under him And then get about 20 other people there The Air Force is going to accuse us-- Burke's Wreckers or something like that--to wreck this but we do not want to wreck it And we want to make it work We want to make this thing work just as well as we possibly can If this plan can be made to work--if they don't tie the hands of the Unified Commanders--if they turn the cards and the tapes and the dope over to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and if they assemble these things in target complexes and if they are reasonable about this thing and they show some consideration for the Commanders itrisxgaaiixxx it could work But there are a lot of ifs I will give you this thing here As a matter of fact the Air Force is liable not to make it work unless they get it exactly their way in what they are doing in two things So that they get the only voice in this thing and they can get the carriers out of the business completely and they can control Polaris by putting them on insignificant targets or putting so many of them on one target or something like that 10 thing to give you and I doubt if you can read it But that is the speech I made before the President essentially I didn't want to get it typed up MR FRKNKE I will put this in my pocket I don't see how even under this plan the Joint Chiefs are going to contro 1 this thing ADM BURKE Well they can MR FRANKXE How are they going to control it Are they going to take a report from SAC and just say it looks pretty good How are they going to check this thing ADM BURKE They are going to have to-- MR FRANKE Remember Arleigh times have changed in this--I think Tom Moorer would be tops for this job • Five ye2U's from now he will get in the hauit of being accustomed to things accepting things and pretty soon you could find that the check and ba nce system attempts to provide through utilization of officers in the Army and IllfXJl'fflflOf Navy don't work any more It bas become an accepted organization ADM BURKE Yes We won't have the numbers of officers We're going to have to pull people--every officer we're going to have to p8ll out of this thing because we don't have the numbers The same thing is true in communications--we're stuck mn communicatxmxsors MR FRANKE Part of Tom's thinking I know has been the fact that the Joint Staff doesn't have enough people to do it Remember we had talked one time about having the Joint Staff take over part of SAC or all of SAC for that matter At least this part of it run it themselves even if they ra l to run it all And J r·• -P- --- - • t ·-- i -0 t- - • 4- RP· li - --_ - - - ' i _ _ - any difference ··lft'aving SAC run it and use 01f1cers from the other Services ADM BURKE Ile doesn't be still doesn't MR FRANKE And it's hard to see People have to go all the way back to the original suspicion of the Air Force ADM BURKE Let me show you some papers here MR FRANKE I got an eye-opener at that briefing that you to see It's a terrible thing to do ADM BURKE You might want to take this with you too got time to read it Those are things that SAC has done Franke reads papers attention to that That's agreed intelligence They used their own If you've Mr They paid no Now one thing about this if you ever talk to Tom and I don't think you should now JUIRX unless he brings it up because I was told to keep it quiet and I am viol a ting th at to this extent because I think you ought to know have got to know--because you're liable to have to choose another Chief He doesn't say that CINCSAC will do this he says--he appoints CINCSAC as the director of this strategic target plan but still in the next breath he says that only SAC can do this and so he's going to use a staff so it's the same thing and that is just a gimmick Thi snow job that he wanted to do to have the Chiefs go out there he knows that's a snow job Ile knows that Well I'm sorry I bring so much trouble but this is the first time--every once in awhile you get something thatyou know is right and thss one I know is right I know it's for the good of this country that this cannot be forever and ever MR FRANKE You've only got one more and it's not a very good one That is that the decision wasn't made yesterday but this doesn't mean anything to Nate · · If this plan is good--maybe yesterday it · jolted the President a little bit not much but a little bit my quota of mercy up on him too I'm afraid can come out of it been worth it I used But maybe a good plan I don't think so but if it does then it has Now here is what I think will happen they wonft force it now before the election I think that That would be very bad but after the election I can be very good fodder and I think I probably will be MR FRANKE ADM BURKE MR FRANKE Now there's another thing here that-- When is this going to start Well I don't know They were talking about it What does he mean by trying out Are they going to put it into effect ADM BURKE They're going to make a sample they're going to make a Basic National Target List and submit that then the President said that this was to be analyzed every way by every agency who ts wants to have a hand in it by everybody that point and he accepted that that can be done very good He made a point there--I made Then that National Target List That can be done very good and we can tell on that if it can be analyzed If they permit us to analyze it and if they turn over all their records and their cards their ma chine cards and things like that we can analyze that fairly rapidly fairly accurately good Then on the operational plan they are going to make out an operational plan just the way--I mean the operational plan--we'll see what that looks like and see what effect ilt has on the uhified commanders and whether it is feasible or not for other forces whether or not it can really be made to work with the changes and the things with reality be good we can accept them If those do turn out to But on the basis that this is the way it will be done and in addition to that we can draw up rules MR FRANKE I think that we have to do is te11 our people on this preliminary thing that they've got to strive and work like hell to find out what they think is wrong about it what kind of at job it is what questions they can raise but Arleigh if SAC is as smart as I think it is these trial jobs will be done to everyone's satisfaction There won't be any way to find anything wrong about them at all That isn't akwxE the way it will be That's the way it will be at that point but that's not the way it will be permanently ADM BURKE Well that's true that might happen MR FRANKE Then you've got to set up some kind of ground rules to control it ADH BURKE That's right that's right MR FRANKE ization Nobody can downgrade the intelligence of this organ- These are smart people ADU BURKE They're smart and they're ruthless with their own organization They're ruthless There are a lot of Air Force people that don't like this a lot of them including Norstad I think Now Tom has tried to railroad this thing through me talked to any of the Unified Commanders roading job He hasn't He's doing a good rail- He had me set up in an impossible situation yesterday It was clever where everybody in the room was against me and it was very good It wasn't unethical either it was just good politics Perfectly all right but he knows how to do these things This thing of keeping quiet putting me so that if there is any leak he'll point the finger at the Navy but the leak won't come from the Navy matter of fact nobody knows it now 14 It will come from the Air As a rno rrinr- r Force and he'll still point the finger--but in order to be sure that I can't make any preparations Force will get--I MR FRANKE ADM BURKE MR FRANKE 8 111 I am by myself but the Air over sure this is all D the Air Force With glee Yes Well we won a big battle there yesterday within-- Well I think you did as well as could be expected H HX better than I thought you would do ADM BURKE Well if I hadn't done that well you would have had a new Chief MR FRANKE I was pretty sure the President would have said Well I agree with Gates ADM BURKE Well if he had done that I would have had to say I think that this is serious Mr President and I dX n't feel I can support this and because I know that it wouldn't be right for me to stay in office because I think this does great harm to the United States MR FRANKE I certainly hate to see CS lose control I can see that Tom doesn't feel that this is happening ADM BURKE No and Lemnitzer doesn't feel that it's really happening but he thinks he can get coitrol--Lemnitzer--and he-with Lemnitzer in the chair there and if he gets a strong Army man--Decker isn't very strongX but he's a good man-MR FRANKE But he won't be troublesome ADM BURKE No he won't be troublesome He's got integrity MR FRANKE That's a better siauation Actually facing this particular problem it's going to be better with a new JCS setup than it is with the present one 15 C' t DM BURKE Oh yes because Twining said the Navy will not let this te porary thing work He said it's got to be done now Mr President yo u 've got to make the decision now I don't see why You've got to The President said Well the reason is he makes a final decision now then what comes out of this will be a dog fight They will have won it and they will know very well that they can do anxything they want to do Now I'm going to call all the people in here on this thing that are going to these two briefs and I'm going to give them a speech Maybe you ought to give them a speech if it's out in the open then too and saying perhaps the same thing and they ought to get briefed so that they--1 mean essentially the same thing what they've got to do and maybe a lot of people here that know this stuff ought to brief them YR FRANKE I don't believe for a minute that Tom would deliberately turn over authority take it away from JCS and give it to anybody else I don't believe that ADM BURKE MR FRANKE ADM BURKE That's not Tom 82 e doesn't think-He doesn't think so he doesn't believe this will happen Yes he doesn't believe it He thinks that I am a partisan and that this is pro-Navy and that's the only reason I'm doing this I would do the same thing if it were the Army ADM BURKE understand -·· ··••· -- · ii · ii -' I - • r - i• C I would do the same thing if it were the Army He doesn't He won't admit he won't look--he's been so used to dealing with people with integrity that he doesn't understand and you can't go up and say that Powers doesn't have integrity unless you want--it's like suing for libel What is iut 6 rity just doesn't support them And the words he says--he Undercutting all the time It's the same way as the Communists it's exactly the same tehbniques As a matter of fact their textbooks originally about 10 years ago were built on the textbooks of the Communists bow to control these things put one out by Rand which is a good book to read I read it They It was given bo me by the Air Force when I went to the Korean thing bow to deal with Communists the operations of the Politburo but it was written in such a way tbat--tbe methods of control bow organizations--could be put into any orgnnization Qt control You can't take that book and say this is an instruction book for the Air Force ber cause it shows how the Commun sts work an1how successful they are I hope I'm wrong but I'm afraid I'm not I told Bob last night that I was in trouble and she just went over the Korean thing She said you were in trouble in Korea too and you were right in that one it turned out to be right everybody thinks it's right now so maybe you're right in this one She doesn't know what it's all about MR FRANKE If you feel as strongly about this one Arleigh as I know you do I guess you'll turn out to be right too time on this We don't have much Mr President wants to make a fiaal decision and we don't have much time ADM BURKE 1m FRANKE They don't have much time and-Ti c· next PresiC c t I don't r uw what Le will do ADM BURKE Well the next President may very well go a lot farther than this If he does then this country is really in a 17 Z- 0 q ow c 1 mua -r- M_ _ ii I r '• 4 • · - - As far as combat capability is concerned because we won't have any We'll go the way of other countries v ho have done sinilar things MR FRANKE If it's Kennedy that's what I amafraid is going to happen If it's Nixon I wouldn't be ADM BURKE I don't know about either one of them upon who is Secretary of Defense It depends mainly They're going to be bu y people m l they aren't going to be able to run the details even1hough they want to do certain things Kennedy I think himself would be all right but he doesn't know enough so he is going to delegate this His brain- trusters don't know anything about it and they're going to-- MR FRANKE I think we missed the boat on Kennedy and it's as much my fault as anybody else's ADH BURKE MR FRANKE It's one man I've never cultivated Well I did very little It could have been done I missed the point I really never thought that Kennedy bad a chance to get the nomination had any idea he would get this nomination I never I don't think he's going to be elected either ADM BURKE I don't know he's got a pretty good chance This is one horse race I wouldn't put any money on at all HR FRANKE ADM BURKE HR FRANKE Well I'll keep all this entirely to myself Yes sir I would appreciate it if you did I think that you did all you could do under the circum- stances ADH BURKE HR FRANKE Yes I don't think I could have done any less or· any more We should never have courted this oee any good No right to do that ADMBURKE No it won't do a bit of good when they say this you must do That I 18 That won't do The only reason I will is Jr'_- SECRET ' ' __ · ' · -- _ and you can't do it MR FRANKE ADM BURKE •• - • • • • - • C ' No you can't do it Well thank you very much 19 • cj ••• 0 J '· 4 •• ii n l J ·--