Related n o t e s oof f S o v i e t Vjsjt Visit - D e c ember mber 2 8 - 3 1 11967 967 - F F A A Long Long Related nolcs Sovic-1 Dec 28-31 erry Wje on Scic11c Je rry W i esncr s n e r aand n d I called called o n Deputy D e p u t y Mjnistcr M i n i s t e r ffor or S c i e n c ce and and Technol Gvj T e c h n o l oogy gy G v i s hiani hiani Wee h ad also I il-illin W a d hoped hoped a l s o to t o ssec e e h is i s ssupc u p erjor rior K irillin who w h o t 1 uncd tu r n e d out o u t to b e unavailable unavailable Wiesner had W iesner h a d ttoured o u r e d the t h e Sovi So v i et e t Union Union with one vii sits knew him well w i t h Gvishiani Gv i s h i a n i in in o n e of of hhis i s carHer earlier v s i t s aand nd k new h im w ell Much discu SovietUS M u c h ooi f tthe he d i s c u sssion s i o n vas w a s on on S oviet-U S rrelation e l a t i o n s s Apparently Apparently t h e r e h cuJ A b e e n ssome ome p r e l i m i n a r y ttalk a l k aabout b o u t bilateral bi l a t e r a l eexchanges x c h a n g e s iinvolving nvolving there been preliminary MIT engineers M I T aand n d Soviet So v i e t e ngineers According Gvishia genera A ccording t o G v i s h i a ni n i the the g e n e r a l idea id e a o f ssuch uch a b i l a t e r a l student st u d e n t exchange ex c h a n g e is i s iintere n t e r e ssting t i n g tto o them them a bilateral U n d e r iitt S oviet Under Soviet woul go he pcrioc1 months sstudents tudents w ould g o tto o th e United U n i t e d State S t a t e s for for a p e r i o d ooff 3 to 6 m o n t h s aand nd l arger might come a r g e r numbers n u m b e r s ooff US U S ssh1dcnts tudents m ight c o m e tto o the t h e USSR U S S R ffor o r sshorter h o r t e r periods periods c g orr sso e g 3 weeks weeks o o arc a r e awkward a w k w a r d He went officia procedures He w e n t on o n tto o say s a y tthat h a t the th e o f f i c i a l eex x change change p rocedures It not arc nd I t is is n o t tthat h a t they th e y ffail a i l but b u t tthat h a t tthey hey a r e iinflexible nflexible an d over o v e r -­ on l aden a d e n with wi t h bureaucracy bu r e a u c r a c y o n both b o t h ssides ides He also He a l s o noted n o t e d ttha h a tt the th e pure p u r e academic academic e x c h a n g e iis s from f r o m ttheir h e i r sstandpoint t a n d p o i n t rrather a t h e r ssterile teril e exchange W h a t they t h e y particularly particularly What a m mixed which llike i k e is i s ffor o r ttheir h e i r engineers e n g i n e e r s tto o have have a i x e d ssort o r t ooff visit v i s i t in in w h i c h tthey h e y do do do ssome o m e sstudying t u d y i n g perh p e r h aps aps d o a commercial ssome o m e research r e s e a r c h in in a c o m m e r c i a l concern co n c e r n aand nd h aave v e ssome ome g e n e r a l responsibility r e s p o n s i b i l i t y to look l o o k at a t eequipment q u i p m e n t with w i t h a view v i e w tto o purpur­ general cchasing hasing i e t h e y llike i k e to t o ssec e e aa llinka i n k a ge g e between be t w e e n study s t u d y aand nd c o m m e r c i al al c they commerc activity activity A p p a rently r e n t l y the th e Soviet So v i e t had ha d tthis his k i n d ooff a r rrangement a n g e m e n t with wi t h a umber Appa kind ar a n number ooff European European c o n c e r n s but b u t nohe none w i t h the th e U concerns with USS Gvishiani gloomy US-USSR G v i s h i a n i spoke s p o k e iin n ssomewha o m e w h at g l o o m y tterms e r m s about about U S - U S S R trade trade Hee noted Fiat his unfortunate H n o t e d that t h a t tthe he F i a t machine m a c h i n e tool t o o l decision de c i s i o n was w a s iin n h i s view view u nfortunate -2 - - 2 - He went on act a m moderate H e w ent o n t o to ssay a y t h at a t iin n fa ct a o d e r a t e aamount m o u n t ooff iinformation n f o r m a t i o n on on U S pr pro s s e s aand n d equi e q u i pment p m e n t i s cornjng c o m i n g ijn n to t o tthe he S oviet U n i on on v i a Europe Europe US occ e•sses Soviet Uni via ii e v i a ssub u b s idiar idiary c o n ccee rr ns n s which which A m e r i c a h as a s iin n E E urope urope e via con America Be f o r e we w e l eft eft G v i s h i a n i r eeturned t u r n e d to t o tt h h e question q ue s t i o n ooff arrangements arrangements efore Gvishiani w i t h unive un i v err s ities ities w ith a e r a l belief be l i e f tth h at a t tth h o u l d a t tempt t t e m p t to do do with with a g gee nneral h e yy sshould more m ore He enter H e rrepeat e p e a t eed d tthat h a t he h e was w a s quite q u i t e prepared p r e p a r e d tto o e n t e r iinto n t o bila b i l ateral teral arrangements bet ween n iversities groups a rrangements b e t w e e n uun i v e r s i t i e s aand n d ssimila i m i l a rr g r o u p s in i n his h i s ccount o u n t ry r y and and M I T aand nd C ornell MIT Cornell H e al so n o t e d tthat h a t he w i l l be int he i n t h e US U S i n April Ap r i l for f or tthe he He also noted will m e e t i n g of o f tthe h e UN UN C o m m i t t e e on on w h i c h he h e sserves erves meeting Committee which Gvishiani an man G v i s h i a n i is is a n impressive impressive m a n He young nd vig H e i ss y oung an d v i g orous orous He H e sseems eems v ery w e l l organiz or g a n i z e d aand n d iincisive nc i s i v e very well On night 29th Doty O n the th e n i g h t of of tthe he 2 9th D o t y Wiesner W i e s n e r aand n d I went w e n t tt o o MillionshchiMillionshchikov's h ouse kov' house K apitza E m e l y a n o v aand n d Voslens Voslensk y w ere a l s o tthere her e Kapitz a Emelyanov ky were also aa bachelor b a c h e l o r dinner d i n n e r party party e a s y way way easy IItt was was The entire was n aa ffriendly The e n t i r e evening evening w a s spent s p e n t iin r i e n d l y aand nd M u c h of of the t h e ttalk a l k was w a s general g e n e r a l and an d concerne c o n c e r n e d science science d evelop­ Much develop- m e n t s in i n the t h e USSR U S S R interesting i n t e r e s t i n g prograrn s p r o g r a m s and a n d ssimilar i m i l a r topics topics ments S o m e time time Some was devoted Vietnam which a m matter w as d e v o t e d tto o general g e n e r a l discussion di s c u s s i o n ooff tthe he V i e t n a m war war w h i c h is is a a t t e r of of eat Russian gr e a t conce c o n c ern r n to t o a ll l l of o f tthe he R u s s i a n intellectuals in t e l l e c t u a l s It during I t was was d u r i n g this t h i s period period next day tthat h a t Kapit7 a Ka p i t z a pleaded p l e a d e d ffor o r aa llittl i t t l e more m o r e ttime i m e tthe he n ext d a y tto o ffinish i n i s h the th e dis d i s -­ cussion Vietnam c u s s i o n ooff V ietnam We W e also a l s o ttalked a l k e d ssome o m e aabout b o u t sscientific c i e n t i f i c exchanges e x c h a n g e s with with the U S g roup r o u p repeating repeating a g a i n the th e difficul d i f f i c u lties t i e s of o f eexcha xchang p r o g r a m s which w h i c h h ad ad the US again gee programs to g o through t h r o u g h aa form f o r m ooff bureaucracy bureaucracy to go -3- - 3 - O n Saturday Sa t u r d a y the t h e 30th 3 0 t h Keldesh K e l d e s h gave gave a c e p t i o n for f o r the the g roup On a r eeception group and a o for fo r Talcott Talcott P arsons and all sso Parsons o f ttoast o a s t ss of I t was was a b r i e f lluncheon uncheon w ith a inimum It a brief with a m minimum I pr p r eesented sented K e l d e s h w i th t h ssome ome m a t e ria r i a ll on the th e U S sspac p a c e pro p r o -­ Keldesh mate US am ncludi a book g rr a m ij n c l u d i nng g a b o o k ooff the t h e Gemini G e m i n i photogr p h o t o g r aphs aphs During dis D u r i n g tthe he d i s c us u s s iion on ad US Kurile I aaskecl s k e d I eldesh K e l d e s h iiff he h e hha d rreacted e a c t e d tto o the t h e d ata a t a from f r o m tth he U S K u r i l e Isl I s l aand nd experimen which een him e x p e r i m e ntt s w h i c h had had b e e n forwarded fo r w a r d e d tto o h im ooff tthe h e fforwarding o r w a r d i n g He H e professed p r o f e s s e d i g norance norance IIn n sspite p i t e ooff ttha h a t I repeat repeate d o u r general g e n e r a l belief b el i e f tth h at a t w e ed our VC have n'lor him wee would sshould hould h ave m o r e ccooperation o o p e r a t i o n i n this t h i s ssort o r t ooff tthing h i n g and a n d tol to l d h im w would current Kurile experiments llook o o k forwar f o r w a r d tto o rreceiving e c e i v i n g tthe h e d at a t a ffrom r o m their their c urrent K urile e xperiments ad He h ha d no n o r eesponse s p o n s e to t o tthis his T he S oviet g a v e tthe h e group g r o u p aa New New Y e a r ' s Eve Eve p a r t y tthe he n i g h t of o f tthe he The Soviet gave Year's party night 3 1st 31st I t was w a s iin n a p r i v a t e rroom o o m iin n the t h e House H o u s e of of S c i e n cc e w h i c h also a l s o had ha d It a private Scien which a v very Year• party Soviet tthat h a t ssame a m e evening evening a e r y large l a r g e New New Y ear's p a r t y ffor or S o v i e t sscientists c i e n t is t s T h i s ttoo oo w a s exceedingly e x c e e d i n g l y friendly fr i e n d l y and a n d gay g a y in in a omewhat d ecorous This was a ssomewhat decorous manner m anner One more came O n e ooff the the m o r e interesting i n t e r e s t i n g fla f l a reups r e u p s tthere here c a m e when w h e n Peter Peter Kapit' 6a K a p i t z a had ha d bb een e e n commenting co m m e n t i n g on o n things t h i n g s aand n d s a i d ssomething o m e t h i n g tto o the t h e effect effect that with etter t h a t Vietnam V i e t n a m iinte n t e rfered rfered w i t h bbe t t e r eexcha x c h a nges ng e s His on H i s wife w i f e flared f l a r e d up up o n this this iin n a n indi in d i g n a n t way w a y and a n d ssaid a i d 1'Vietnam Vietnam is i k e aa d ark a r k sshadow h a d o w over over a l l ooff an gnant s llike all our with o u r llives i v e s iitt iis s aalways lways w i t h uuss when w h e n will wi l l it ever e v e r cc ease e a s e It I t is i s clear clear t h a t hhe t a t e ooff eemotional m o t i o n a l involvement i n v o l v e m e n t i s hig h i g hh that e r sstate T h e r e we w err e numerous n u m e r o u s private p r i v a t e eex xc h a n g e s between b e t w e e n Soviet So v i e t an d iindi n d i -­ Ther changes a nd vidua US v i d u a l s ooff tthe he U S group gr o u p was IItt w a s c hhaa rr acteristic a c t e r i s t i c in i n thes t h e s e eexchanges x c h a n g e s tthat hat 1 N -4- 4 - Soviet quite outgoing nformation tthe he S o v i e t were were q uite o u t g o i n g aand n d free fr e e with w i t h iin formation Ass o one x ample A n e eex ample A rtsimovich w as q u i t e prepar0d p r e p a r e d tto o aanaly n a l y ze z e tthe he F O B S ssystem y s t e m aand n d cconclude onclude Artsimovich was quite FOJ3S tthat h a t it i t h ad a d firstfi r s t sstrike t r i k e potential potential A s anoth a n o t her er M i l l i o n s h c h i k o v was w a s w illing illing As Millionshchikov to make t o discu s d i s c u s s sspec p e c iific f i c meetings m e e t i n g s aand n d tto o m a k e tthe h e point p o i n t that th a t forma f o r m a llly l y the the Sovie be meeting S o v i e t ssh h ooul uld b e h ost o s t tto o the t h e next next m e e t i n g perhaps p e r h a p s iin n tthe h e sspring p r i n g in i n tthe he Russia ssouth o u t h of of R u s s i a but b u t that th a t perhaps pe r h a p s it i t would w o u l d b e eequally q u a l l y eeasy a s y aand n d worth w o r t h concon­ ssidering i d e r i n g tto o have h a v e the the m e e t i n g iin n tthe h e United U n i t e d St a t e s in i n a place p l a c e ssimilar i m i l a r tto o tthe he meeting St ates previous d i s c u s s i o n at a t Endicott E n d i c o t t House House previous discussion IItt w a s iin n p r iivate v a t e discussions d i s c u s s i o n s tha t h a tt tth e Soviet So v i e t n o t e d tthat h a t they th e y h a d was he noted c l o s e r ccontacts ontacts w i t h Kosygjn K o s y g i n than th a n they th e y h aad d h a d with with K h r u s c h e v aand n d t h at at closer with had Khruschev current meetings sspecifically p e c i f i c a l l y t h e y h aad d sseen e e n Kosygin K o s y g i n before b e f o r e tthese hese c urrent m e e t i n g s aand nd him again nex eexpected x p e c t e d to t o ssee ee h im a g a i n in the th e n e xtt week w e e k or o r sso o I h ad a d brought b r o u g h t along along so m e ffacts a c t s aabout b o u t So viet o c e a n o g r a p h y fron1 from ome Soviet oceanography G l e n n Schwe Sc h w eitzer i t z e r aand nd h o p e d tto o a ssk k q uestions b u t found fo u n d no n o r eeasonable a s o n a b l e pla p l a ce ce Glenn hope questions but do tto o d o so so