1336 MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION SUBJECT Summary of President's Meeting with British Opposition Leader Neil Kinnock PARTICIPANTS The President Secretary Shultz Robert C McFarlane Tyrus W Cobb NSC Deputy Assistant Secretary JRmes Dobbins British Opposition Leader Neil Kinnock Patricia Hewitt Kinnock Staff Richard Clements Kinnock Staff DATE TIME AND PLACE February 14 1984 The Oval Office 4 00-4 25 p m The President welcomed Mr Kinnock to Washington and indicated that he was delighted to · exchange views on international affairs with the new Labor Party Leader The President said that he had been informed that Kinnock had very useful discussions with several Administration policymakers while in Washington C Mr Kinnock thanked the President for his hospitality and observed that he was very pleased with the substantive and fruitful discussions on a number of issues that he has had with U S officials The President reiterated to Kinnock the security themes that he has stressed recently particularly in his Tokyo Diet speech and his major address on American-Soviet relations in January The President stressed the urgent necessity of securing global stability and a genuine peace Should a conflict break out today between the superpowers there would be no real victor There exists an urgent necessity to rid the earth of nuclear weaponry However he stressed he did not agree with the Labor Party's statements on unilateral nuclear disarmament He noted that the U S had offered when it was the sole nuclear power on earth to turn its nuclear weapons over to an international - - - - -u tho-rrt y - we-were-cn -scrppui-nte-d---tha L Llre-o the r-s-i-d-e----i -a-i--l- e El- t -e--- - - r e spond S Mr Kinnock said that he understood fully the President's position and wanted to make clear that he did not place the U S and the Soviets in the same category Kinnock indicated he was very pleased with the President's State of the Union address which in his mind implicitl y came close t o e n dorsing a concept c ltt' o s Declassify on OADR J RR t- J'A BV i 0 r-JARf ffE 1 iJ 1 '• of no first use of nuclear weapons He wondered if the Soviet leadership would be as forthcoming Kinnock continued that he fully recognized the necessity of maintaining Western military strength in order to provide an effective deterrent This was particularly true in the case of conventional force improvements for the defense of Western Europe However from a British perspective there is no role for nuclear weapons to play in this deterrent strategy To be fair Kinnock said Britain should not ask to be placed under the U S nuclear umbrella if it were to rid itself of nuclear weapons S The President stated that we have had thirty-eight years of peace and perhaps the existence of nuclear weaponry has been a contributing factor He said that when he discusses this issue with students he always asks them to consider whether or not the world has been a safer place because of the U S development of nuclear forces We are prepared and the Soviets understand this to defend our Western sovereignty at any level I wonder the President said that if the world had listened to Winston Churchill in the 1930s would we have been able to have prevented Hitler's maniacal schemes Kinnock agreed that Churchill's words were prophetic and we had failed to heed them C The President said that following World War II he often asked Japanese he came in contact with Why Pearl Harbor Why did you launch that attack Their response invariably pointed out that they observed the U S Army training using cardboard tanks and mock-up machine guns indicating that the U S was not serious in its determination to counter Japanese imperialism C Mr Kinnock stated that he agreed absolutely with the President particularly in his characterization of the pre-World War II period The Spanish Civil War in which many Americans participated was a good example of an effort to halt the trend toward fascism in Europe However the analogy does not apply directly today An exchange of weaponry at this time could mean the obliteration of mankind He added that the President seemed to be saying this in his recent pronouncements S The President nodded agreement but stressed that fear of the consequences of nuclear war should not be construed to mean that unilateral nuclear disarmament is the proper path to pursue He agreed that it is true that we cannot think of victory or defeat as we had previously Turning to Soviet views of deterrence the Preside t indicated that he was aware that the USSR may base much of its preparations on a fear of attack After all Russia ha experienced invasions for centuries and has traditionally been surrounded by hostile foreign powers However the President added that he and Kinnock know that no one in the West is going to attack the Soviet Union Thus as in 1946 when the Soviets spurned our offer to share knowledge on atomic weaponry and pursued their own atomic arms programs it appears that the Kremlin has other aims in mind besides a defensive mentality rising from this fear of invasion S s • Mr Kinnock strongly agreed and pointed out that it was to the Soviets' discredit that they missed this opportunity However this should not mean that we should seriously adopt concepts such as a war fighting ca_pabili ty This is a primar_y concern of European youth and has alienated many of them from our policies Mr Kinnock indicated he understood the President's position on nuclear weaponry and suggested that if he were in the President's chair he might feel the same way regarding the role of these weapons Nuclear deterrence makes sense for the United States but not for the United Kingdom said Kinnock The British people can see no gain from a nuclear conflict or even a discussion of how such a conflict would take place The arms race must be stopped immediately An excellent initial step on this said Kinnock is the U S build-down policy enunciated in recent strategic arms proposals S The President responded that the existence of nuclear weapons has been a key factor in maintaining global stability and preventing war He wondered if the U S would have seriously considered dropping the bombs on Japan if we knew that San Francisco or Chicago would be vulnerable to retaliation from Tokyo S Mr Kinnock replied that he understood the President's logic but that does not lead to the corollary assertion that every state should then have a nuclear weapon For example Qadhafi's Libya We certainly don't want that The spread of nuclear weaponry could make conflict more probable and lead to such consequences as the nuclear winter that has been widely discussed S The President responded that he was adamantly opposed to any further nuclear proliferation and endorsed all efforts to halt the spread of these arms He indicated that he too had serious discussions on what the consequences would be on a nuclear conflict and agreed with Kinnock that a nuclear winter was theoretically possible The President added however that he wished the Soviet leadership would study this question as carefully as he has and would understand better the horrible consequences of a superpower conflict S Mr Kinnock _in shifting the discussion to the Middle East told the President he was a strong supporter of the 1982 U S proposal He recommended that once the affairs in Lebanon had settled we should return to the essence of our 1982 policy package Kinnock stated that a solution to the Middle East would _likely in l _BJJ__s_sian _ and c_ertainly Syrian -2 9rticipa tion He indicated that ·although he was not a fan of Assad Syrian security concerns needed to be taken into consideration Further he said we must not overlook the critical questions regarding the Western Bank and the Gaza Strip and the status of the Palestinians S s t The President replied that this indeed was the subject of intense discussions in the White House over the last two days with President Mubarak and Kin9 Hussein He indicated that a demonstrable willingness to negotiate by all sides was necessary including a readiness to trade territory for secure borders The President agreed with Kinnock that all of these other concerns should be given equal weight in our negotiations and pledged that the U S would do its best to achieve genuine peace and stability in the Middle East Mr Kinnock thanked the President warmly for his hospitality and for the leadership he has demonstrated in the Western Alliance Kinnock noted that all of our lives depend on the President's decisions and he wanted him to know that he Kinnock had a great respect for the office and for the President himself S The meeting concluded at 4 25 p m SECRET Summary of President Ronald Reagan's 4 00-4 25 p m Oval Office meeting with British opposition leader Neil Kinnock Discussion centered on whether or not the existence of U S nuclear power has played a role in peacekeeping efforts throughout the last 20 years White House 14 Feb 1984 U S Declassified Documents Online link gale com apps doc TNUAUU216001127 USDD u wash74137 sid bookmarkUSDD xid 58a7dfda pg 3 Accessed 9 May 2022