THE WHITE HOUSE SECJ ii J' P 8l'll1S UJVE ' · I- S 1- I t 8 7 0 MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION REAGAN-GORBACHEV MEETINGS IN GENEVA November 1985 First Private Meeting DATE November 19 1985 TIME 10 20 - 11 20 A M PLACE Maison Fleur d'Eau Geneva Switzerland PARTICIPANTS United States President Ronald Reagan Dimitri Zarechnak Interpreter Union of Soviet Socialist Republics Mikhail Gorbachev Genera Secretary Central Comndttee Communist Party of the Soviet Union Yuri D Uspensky Interpreter After the official photographers and the rest of the staff left the room President Reagan began the conversation by· telling the General Secretary that the two of them could really talk now The President indicated that he approached this meeting with a very deep feeling and hoped that both of them could realize its importance and the unique situation that they were in The President iP dicated that both he and the Genera Secretary ha a come from similar beainnings which were quite different from their current positions He Reaga·n was born and began his life in a small farming community and now the two of them were here with the fate of the world in their hands so to speak The U S and the Soviet Union were the two greatest SECfH T SIM 1ll' l' IVE Declassify OADR Fq · 1 ' r9 r 1 1 v-v - 7 - countries on Earth the supE rpowers 'I·hey were the only ones who could start·World Kar III but also the only two countries that could bring peace to the world The President said that the two of them would talk about many things including arms in the main meeting but he wondered if the primary aim between them should not be to eliminate the suspicions which each side had of the other The resolution of other questions would follow naturally after this To talk about arms while such suspicions exist is an empty exercise as both sides are defensive at the various negotiations because of these suspicions Countries do not mistrust each other because of arms but rather countries build up their arms because of the mistrust between them The President expressed the hope that in their meetings they could get at the sources of the suspicions which exist The Soviet Union did not approve of the U S system of government and the U S did not approve of the Soviet system and each could follow its own way but with peaceful competition General Secretary Gorbachev said that he would like to return to the beginning and thank the Pr esident for receiving him He agreed with the President that this meeting was important in itself and he was glad that it was taking place There had been no meetings between the U S President and the General Secretary of the USSR for six years and many problems had developed in U S -Soviet relations and in the world in that period He would also speak of these issues at the larqer meeting but ·would now like to avail himself of the opportunity which such a private meeting affords He had met with members of the U S Conqress and representatives of the U S Administration but the Soviet side recognized the importance of a meeti pg with the President and he Gorbachev would like to talk quietly with respect for the United States and for the President about many issues Gorbachev indicated that the Soviet side had prepared many months for this meeting and he had tried to get a better understanding of the U S from Soviet and American sources He had familiarized himself with all of the President's statements and had paid special attention to the most recent ones The main conclusion he had come to was that he was convinced that he and the President could not ignore each other Nothing good would happen if the two sides took a different approach But he ·was convinGed that he could begin to change our relations for the better · This was his main theme and the starting point for the meeting After he had come to this conclusion he had reviewed it a thousand times perhaps it was too simplistic bearing in mind the tremendous differences between the two ---- CR T SENS IT IVE - countries This was of course so but en the other hand the two countries were so interreleted Gorbachev continued that in the Soviet Union it was considered that serious measures ought to be undertaken to improve u s -Soviet relations This would demand political will at the hiohest levels A veritahle avalanche of information was descending upon Gorbachev and the President both internally and from all around the world Gorbachev was convinced that there was not only the fear of mutual destruction although this did exist but a realistic evaluation showed that the U S and the Soviet Union could cooperate and they had done so in the past without changing their political systems culture or ideologies They had cooperated in the area of economics trade and culture while respecting the choices made by the U S people and obviously the Soviet people as well Gorbachev said that there had sometimes been squalls in the bilateral relationship which had been severe perhaps extremely so but he could definitely state that in the USSR there was no enmity toward the United States or its people The Soviet Union respected the U S and its people The Soviet people and the leadership of the Soviet Union recognized the role of the U S in the world and wished it no harm They realized that international relations could not be built on a desire to harm American interests At this point Gorbachev indicated that he would like to pause to permit the President to speak and then he would like to say a few thinqs about the Soviet side's understanding of the present international situation and what he thought should be changed in our policies in order to have a more constructive relationship based on greater realism The President replied that there was no queston but that the Soviet and American peoples if they learned more about each other would find that they had many things in common and that friendship between them would grow Unfortunately it was not people but governments that created arms The President continued that prior to this meeting there had been a wave of good wishes from the people of the United States primarily expressing the desire to have peace He knew something about the Soviet Union and its concern about war because of the suffering which the country had undergone in the Second World War -- the courage the sacrifices and the fact that 20 million people--had_ been lost People do not like war Americans hate war America is too good a place to be when there is no war S li CRE9 SENSITIVE l The President continued that people 6id not get into trouble when they talked to each other but rather whe they talked about each other There has been too much of the latter on both sides and not enough of talking to each othe In the meeting with the larger group where he and Gorbachev should soon move the sicies could exrlain whv there is mistrust between them but could make a begin ing to iry to eliminate this mistrust C-orbachev replied that they _ oulci discuss specific questions during their Geneva meetings but he wished to give his evaluation of the present international situation as the Soviet side saw it while they were still in their one-on-one meeting He thought that a new policy was' needed which would be adequate for the present international situation The first thing that was needed was a policy aimed at resolving the central issue of the present time that is the question of war and peace In the Soviet Union in the United States and in the whole world this was the question which was in the minds of everyone even ordinary people not to mention those who were more familiar with international processes Gorbachev continued that if the two sides reached a substantive agreement in Geneva which would increase people's hope and would not destroy their view of the future with respect to the uestion of war and peace this would be a great accomplishment The question of ending the arms race was of critical importance in international politics and we needed to say something to the world about this The Soviet side is in favor of this The U S side says that nuclear war cannot be permitted and that it is for peace We need to find a formula c t this meeting which would give impetus towarc moving towards resolution of the more important issues This was the first thing Gorbachev continued that he would not like to seem irresponsible vis-a-vis the President vis-a-vis his owrc country and is-a-vis the world with regard to this main issue Young people were wondering about whether they would be alive or not and the older generation that had suffered so much was also thinking about this Yes we have a meeting in Geneva and we need to create an impetus If no such impetus is created there will be great disappointment and no statements or press announcements will justify the meeting People will say that we are irresponsible And the two sides should not subject themse·lves to such a fate Gorbache¥--s-aid--that he would like to say two brief things about what r alities Soviet and U S foreign policy should take into account There were many problems in the world involving capitalist countries and socialist countries not to mention third-world countries where the problems were the greatest The problems involved questions of economics structural change ecology sociology etc All of these issues demanded our SDCRET SEUSI'F I VE attention and requi ed solutions based on cooperati0r rather than confrontatior This was the second thing that Gorbachev • ished to say Gorbachev continued that the third thing was that the two countries had had conflicts both openly and privately with regard to regional third-world issues But there was a great number of developing countries and doz ens of newly-created ones They had areat amounts of natural and human resources but they were noi only behind the developed countries but the gap beh een them was growing greater There was hunq r illiteracy and disease causing a great deal of turmoil We need to take a new political approach to these issues in order to resolve them This was the basis for Gorbachev's approach to foreign policy as well as that of his colleagues Gorbachev indicated that the issue of national interests had arisen The Soviet Union had its national interests and the U S had them as well Other countries also had their national interests In the international context we could not speak of advancing some of these interests at the expense of suppressing others Without such an approach it would be difficult to act in the international arena He had spoken sincerely about these three things The Soviet Union was not playing a two-facea game If it were playing such a game with regard to the United States if it harbored secret intentions then there coulc be no improvement in the relationship He was sincerEC about th is and thi•s applied to both countries Gorbachev apologized that he had taken so long and said that he would be enaing shortly Perhaps the President was aware that a slogan had been used curing the time of this meeting in Geneva which said that Reagan and Gorbachev should bear in mind that the worla did not belong only to the two of th err The President replied that he had not heard about such a slogan but he wished to reply briefly to what Gorbachev had said and then he thought it would be better for them to join with the rest of the group He agreed that the two countries could mutually help the developing countries but one of the things that created mistrust of the USSR by the U S was the realization of the Marxist idea of helping socialist revolutions throughout the world and the belief that the Marxist system should prevail The U S felt however that the most important thing for a country was its right to self-determination The U S and USSR Qould help these countries aiven our advanced technologies · We could help them to improve their standards of living But the U S felt that the Soviet Union attempted to use force to shape the developing countries to their own pattern and that such force was often used only by a minority of 3ECRE1' SEN'S¥ I'IVE - - - · -- -·-· - -··a · • --····· - - the people of thec coun' ry The l ' S believec that if the competing factionE would settle their social an other differences themselves the U S and USSR could then be ready to assist them in improviDg their economies Both our coun ries should eliminate the mistrust which e ists between them by discussing the causes of this mistrust The r s had a very firm belief that people in all countries had the right of self-determination and the right to choose their own form of government The President indicated that when he and Gorbachev would go into the main meeting he would greet the members of the Soviet Delegation and Gorbachev should greet the members of the U S Delegation after which there would be a photo opportunity next to the fireplace before they sat down at the table Gorbachev replied that they would continue to discuss these issues in the larger meeting but he would like to say some more before they left the room There had been those who considered that the American Revolution should have been crushed The same applied to the French Revolution and to the Soviet Revolution Over a long period of time millions of people had engaged in such struggles -- in India Indonesia in Algeria where one-and-a-half million people had died in their struggle for freedom The Soviet Union did not consider that a way of life could be imposed if a society were not ready for it These were only empty phrases All these things which happen in the world have their national roots The U S should not think that Moscow was omnipotent and that when he Gorbachev woke up every day he thought about which country he would now like to arrange a revolution in This was simply not true Gorbachev indicated that after his interpreter had tr2 nslated what he had just said he would like to convey some confidential information to Reagan after which they could move to the next room Gorbachev sai6 that before leaving for Geneva he had received some information from the Soviet Academy of Sciences specifically the Institute for Earth Stuciies where the scientists have become convinced that there would be a major earthquake ii the area of California and Nevada within the next three years Soviet scientists had always worked with U S scientists on these issues and Reagan probably had knowledge of such information already but this information was in addition to what had already been known The Soviet scientists considered that the probability of an earthquake of a magnitude of 7 or 7 5 on the Richter scale was t1·m-thirds and the probability of one of 6 or 6 5 was three-fourths The Soviet side was ready to have its sci ent-ists give all the details to U S scientists They have no·t yet been published The President replied that he realized that such an earthquake was considered to be overdue He mentioned that an entire _ area alon9 the Pacific Asia Srt •_ Americc and North America was considered to be a ring of fire'' because of the volcanoes th£ re This hac recently beer demonstrated in Colombia before _that in Me icc and in the U S v -ith Viount St Helen these ·volcanoes were showing greater activity Because of faults in the earth and shifting plates we know that such an event is overdue A great deal of tension has been created along the San Andreas fault and this tension had not been released by little quakes The President indicated that he had not heard any specific time frame mentioned of the type that Gorbachev had spoken of but all of our scientists knew that this was overdue and could happen at any time Prepared by Dimitri Zarechnak Department of State