C06246224 ' 29 October 1963 Notes on Meeting - about 3 30 on 29 October - Situation Room In Attendance Secretary McNamara Gen Taylor McGeorge Bundy William Bundy _ Mr McCone Mr Helms Mr Colby 1 Draft cable - - keep Lodge in place until Saturday 2 Taylor expressed view that coup if either successful or un ucces sful would have disastrous results 3 McGeorge Bundy insisted we cannot reconsider our position with respect to support o a coup but can merely ask Embassy-for further assessment McCone raised questio-n of why not reconsider our support position stating it was extremely disturbing to him that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs had responsibility for military operations and for military advice to the President expressed dissatisfaction that it can not b reconsidered It was decided to s·end out a cable and get an appraisal of the prospects of the success of the coup # I Notes on Meeting t 4 00 - Cabinet Room - re South Viet Nam In Attendance The President The Vice President Secretary Rusk Secretary McNamara Attorney General Gen Taylor McGeorge Bundy Gen Krulak Gov Harriman William Bundy Mr Forrestal Alexis Johnson Mendenthal McCone Helms Colby Colby briefed on the attitude of the forces using charts indicating the disposition forces stating that about an equal munber of key units · were in support of the coup as were in support of the Government and units totalling about l8 000 personnel were neutral Colby also briefed on the two coup groups the Generals and the Can Lao group and indicated very modest interchange between the two of Tfur tf n q Q¾r p ' · _ ii - b T - • - ·i t Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 8 •COPY C06246224 Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 t'i Dt v 1 The President raised the question of the 1960 coup attempt Colby stated that our principal effort was to get the two sides negotiating and to stop the fighting The President expressed concern over prospect of protracted fighting - thought we should ha ve an evaluation from the Embassy Rusk spoke stated we must assume that Diem and Nhu are informed about the talks Diem's talk with Lodge indicates Diem was informed about coup talks Rusk questioned whether· we should be silent and permit a coup to go forward and involve civil war We should raise the question with the coup leaders as to whether the coup could be carried off without civil war Lodge should pass this word on to Don should indicate ·we are not now convinced of the outcome therefore should demand their plans before indicating support The President indicated Lodge should stay on his schedule that if his departure was delayed and a coup would take place it would be apparent that we were informed After discussion it was decided that Lodg_e could leave on Saturday on military aircraft and this was agreed to Agreed that a cable be sent to Lodge and Harkins asking for a detailed assessment of all questions relating to the coup and also outlining command_ arrangements after -Lodge I s departure The Attorney General took a very positive position questioning the communication that was proposed and indicating grave doubts o-f the wisdome of our proceeding with a program which seemed to spell defeat because of failure of a coup or political confusion following a coup if successful He thought the consequences of failure in fEmib South Vietnam would be the loss of Southeast Asia to the communists NOTE He in effect was repeating my statement to him at lunch last week General Taylor repeated his views which were to the effect that a successful coup was no guarantee of succe s s I repeated what I had said on 25 October at my meeting with the President McNamara Bundy AG and Taylor A coup if attempted might result in some fo·rm of civil war in which the Viet Cong_ would win by sitting on the sidelines or if succ ssful would result in an extended period of political confusiqn during which time the war might be_ adversely affected and possibly-lost and furthermore a period of political unrest would probably result in a second or perhaps a third coup JAM mfb HelmS' or Colby to prepare full notes of the above meetings ----------------------- Approved for Release 20 4108105 C06246224 C06246224 Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 THE WJ-1 1 TE HOUSE tvv- t-t l''Wl··C --- -To -'i -- 1 __1--'1 - w n 1--' C-o 0-1 - - I •- i-- -i _ Q - t tJ - t · '_· _ fvt C L t1· w-e C d J lr-- r i - '- - ' $ ··' C ' ' -- • C c 6 - - J A - _ S J-d ltr - - • 0 • L r r - --4-0 __ 1 ke - - __ _ -· Q C L' ' f l _ t U_ G- t --1-- -t _ r tr·-Ll--' i fl__ E 1 ' Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 C06246224 Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 THE WHITE HOUSE --•··· · i C --·· - 1 -· 1 ·' ·· · i-1 ' -·- Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06 24 6 22 4 ----------- C06246224 - Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 Z9 October 1963 MEMORANDUM 1 Diem-Lodge discussions produced no movement ln ·the direction of political action to satisfy our· wishes Also Diem insinuations indicate hls knowl dge of U S officials famiUa-r wlth coup planning Z Knowledge of Generals' col lp plannhtg by at least two avUians outside of government would iP di¢ate sufficient talking ln Saigon s o that at least some of the plans 8' are known to Diem and Nhu · 3 The secui-ity meaeuree ai -e an improvement 4 Analysis of SYN forces in Saigon area indicate three groups neutral pro goV1Jrnrnent whlch is pi obably the largest and pro coup which is smaller but still a larger for e than in-August · 5 Dla1e ussion dto as sess • if prospects of a C¢ up i tepr·obable that action will be postponed from time to time f r avorable developments On the other hand a c·oup attempt could be n1 de momentarily 6 If suc cess ul political diffleulties will follow and tonfuslon will exist or a prot rae-ted pe-rlod Approved for Release 2024 08 05 C06246224 8-