FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 1 C LINTON-PlJTIN ONE-ON- ONES M oscow SUMl lIIT JUNE 3-5 2000 Notetaker ST June 9 00 First Session working dillner Kremlin p rivate quarters 8 10-10 50 p m Opening banter about sports Putin says he hurt himselfskiing really misses regular exercise when he injures himself tries to be careful POTUS asks ifhe's keeping up his judo Putin says he has engaged in disciplined exercise all his life was a judo champion in Leningrad but finds it hard to keep it up in his current job finds that frustrating Will show POTUS later how he's got a gym nearby POTUS says he 's read Putin 's book and noticed how much emphasis he gave to judo and martial arts Can't he keep doing that Putin says no because it 's hard to find anyone who wants to be his sparring partner and it's also hard to find the time Putin then shifts to asking POTUS about life in the White House wonders ifhe has anyplace else he can go POTUS talks about Camp David and how he hasn't been able to use it as much as he'd like Mentions that HRC hasn't been able to get up there much lately because ofher campaign and how POTUS himselfwill be doing a lot of campaigning for Gore which means not many weekends free - Putin I've really been looking forward to our meeting I remember our meeting in New Zealand very well - how kind you were how friendly how supportive when I was m g my first steps in the leadership I remember how after dinner you took me by the hand and led me to that gallery and we were applauded there together I also paid attention to what you said during our election campaign here Of course these aren 't the only reasons I've been looking forward to our meeting You 're also someone who has served 8 years in the presidency of the most powerful country in the world During those years you've done a lot to build the relationship with Russia You've still got some time left to you in office and there's a lot we can do together While cameras come in they go back to bantering about houses P OTUS talks about the house he and HRC will have in NY as well as the set-up at the Clinton Library in Little Rock Cameras leave - Putin One reason I ask about your life in the White House is that I'm finding life here in the Kremlin very isolating 1 FL-2017-1 3804 - B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 2 POTUS I can sympathize I used to say that the White House is both the finest house in America and also the crovro jewel of our prison system He then describes how in order to limit the isolation he's set up a special zip code so that people he grew up with can write him letters and give him a perspective from the real world how he 's attended reunions ofhis high school and college classes and brought high-school classmates to the White House Putin says he's thought about doing the same but hasn't done it because he didn 't want to give the impression ofmisspending public funds or taking favors from private businessmen Several times in this back-and-forth Putin begins his reply to POTUS by saying I agree with you absolutely or that's just the way I look at it When POTUS runs through a list of all the friends he has back home with whom he's kept in touch over the years Putin says almost wistfully You 're lucky to have so many friends I don't have all that many The ones I do have I try to keep in touch with - Putin Even after you leave office you'll be welcome here - you and your daughter and your wife - POTUS Well maybe I'll take you up on that In any event you can count on me to keep working on keeping the relationship strong You know I've made 5 trips here as President and I first came here back in the 60s when Strobe and I were young and full of hope We had hope about this country when a lot of people didn't It's a lot easier to have hope about it today All my life I've wanted to see this relationship strong and healthy - Putin Let's see ifwe can invent some way of keeping you involved with Russia Hillary seems to be running well How's it going from your standpoint POTUS then gives a detailed cautiously optimistic analysis of the NY race emphasizing HRC's credentials including having traveled the world Too many people don't see the importance of the US 's role in the world - Putin Well it's a unique situation What will the impact of her race be on the presidential election POTUS says that he doesn 't think there will be a great deal of effect He reviews the history ofNY politics - Putin interrupting - saying in English excuse me then shifting to Russian But what I was wondering was if you'd be accused of interfering in the NY race - that is using your influence as President on behalf of your wife 2 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 3 POTUS says maybe some will make that charge but that he's kept his distance from direct campaigning and doesn 't think it will be a problem in the end But he'll be careful on that score - Putin Yes I think the right approach is always the careful one He then recalls Sobchak's wife arousing controversy by running or the Duma when Sobchak was Mayor ofSt Petersburg He says that Russians ofcourse have a different view ofthe role of women than Americans and that his own wife is a great admirer ofHillary's - Putin rather abruptly How are Gore's chances looking POTUS does a quite detailed analysis and prognosis on the campaign Bottom line it will be close but the VP will pull it out because he will succeed in pushing back against Bush's effort to blur the distinction between them and frame the issues in the way that give the electorate clear choices including on foreign policy and national security That allows POTUS to segue into NMD - POTUS The Republicans have an advantage when there is no sharp debate on the issues That's because the American people believe they're conservative but in fact they're really progressive and with us on the issues To win we have to win on arguments We've had a couple of issues lately where in order to do the right thing I had to do things that didn' t help Al the little Cuban boy and trade for China But now we've gotten those out of the way The key for Al is to convince people there' s a real choice here on the issues He can do that because he understands the future better In this connection foreign policy matters The Republicans are against CTBT they're against the ABM Treaty Al Gore understands these issues very very well He's a powerful debater because he knows so much He's also had more of a role than any vice president in history Bush will keep trying to convince people he's a slightly more conservative version of Clinton But missile defense will be one of those issues on which he tries to tell people I'm different from Clinton and I'm better because I'm tougher Putin laughs heartily He seems eager to demonstrate that he appreciate_s the irony ofthe President's remark For his part Gore will say I've been part of the tough decisions we've made in this Administration and America is better of fbecause of those decisions - Putin interupting Well everyone's got to be careful not to make the best the enemy of the good Not entirely clear what he means by this although it could be a first marker against NMD as a misguided pursuit of an ideal solution to one problem that greatly exacerbates other problems - i e as he's said elsewhere 'a cure worse than the disease ' · - POTUS continuing Bush will be highly reliant on old Republican establishment experts 3 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 4 - Putin I' m not going to say this publicly because we've got to be able to work with whomever the American people elect but I'll say to you privately that a change in parties controlling the White House would cause some problems for us including a hiatus in the relationship and the work we're doing together A new man from a new pa1ty will be tempted to say We'll do it better than the previous guys and that means we'll be tougher I know that even though both parties included nice words about U S -Russian relations in their programs - POTUS Well if Bush wins I can't tell you with certainty what he'll do On the one hand he's against CTBT and the ABMT On the other hand he never gave a minute's thought to these subjects untiltwo months ago On an all-out missile defense you might talk him out of his position but there's no question you'll be better off with the Vice President And you can't be sure about Bush He could make a major mistake I'd keep that in mind as you make your own decisions We're talking about a guy who didn't have a position on CTBT and mutual deterrence until 90 days ago If it happens I'll try to help out but I think you're better off doing as much as you can with me Obviously on any difficult issue between us you '11 have to make your decision on whether to do a deal with us or whether to wait until the next Administration Is it better and easier to do it now or wait It may be better but harder to do it now POTUS then predicted that whoever wins the presidency the Democrats are going to take back the House and recover some ground in the Senate He went into some statistical detail on this Putin seemed genuinely quite intrigued Now in some ways that may seem to argue for waiting until the next Administration to do a deal But I want to give you two arguments on the other side Number one in American political culture if the Presidency changes hands a new president can change any policy that's not rooted in law That virtually always happens on domestic issues but it almost never happens on foreign policy issues So if you think you can reach an agreement with us that's better than the one with Bush do it because it will be much harder for him to change the deal if it's done and he inherits it Ifhe wanted to change it given the history of American politics he' d almost have to make you a better deal than the one you got from us The second reason plays off your point about the danger of a hiatus if Bush wins You may have experienced something like this when you came into office as Acting President A new president is often afraid of making a mistake - of looking weak especially on a national-security issue whereas I have nothing to lose I just want to do the right thing for America for U S Russian relations I'm coming to the end of two terms and I'm working for 4 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 5 the future It's with the long term future in mind that I've come up with this policy and this proposal even though the policy involves hard choices for me and the proposal involves hard choices for you - Putin This logic is possible but so is another logic You 're what number President POTUS says 42nd You're the 42nd President - that's a good number You've done a lot for your country particularly the upsurge in your economy maybe as much as any President since Roosevelt after the Depression You've done a lot for the world too You were President of the U S when the Soviet Union collapsed and a new Russia was born In that sense you 're one of the leading citizens of the world From that point of view I can't imagine you'd make a dangerous mistake from the standpoint of mankind and international security Apart from your domestic politics I believe you'd want to make a decision that will as physicians say 'do no harm ' Of course it would be better to come to terms with you But we need to find a basis on common ground And we've also got to find a way that allows you to make a decision that won't spur a new arms race or return us to the mistrust and dangers of 15 years ago And I'm not just talking about Russia here If we fail to find the right solution other countries will react How will that look So please think carefully before taking a decision Putin then suspended the discussion and took POTVS on a tour of the private quarters the nap room the sumptuous duplex library with a bust ofPushkin the gym with a universal weight machine a massage table and a heart monitor the private chapel and the guest quarters He also made a point ofshowing POTVS a darkened room that clearly was no longer in use the clinic for the previous resident On returning to a separate dining room for desert POTVS mentioned that he'd be paying his respects to Yeltsin on Monday and asked ifhe was in the same dacha he'd had as President - Putin Yes I'm let him stay where he was POTUS then recalls the many-course meal Yeltsin had given him at his dacha in Janua1y '94 and how the weight ofthe meal was almost too much for Warren Christopher That meal almost cost us our Secretary of State Some banter about Yeltsin 's style ofhunting great carnage for the wildlife no great risk to the hunter When Boris described how he went after the wild boars it didn't really seem like a fair fight Big laugh from Putin Putin then recalled Yeltsin 's bagging 200 ducks in a single outing Sometimes I think he just pretended at ill health 5 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 6 Then back to the subject oflife in the White House and the Kremlin and how the two Presidents' children are adjusting - Putin It's been difficult for my daughters but they're good sports Because of our fear of terrorists they can't go to regular schools We have to bring teachers in here That for him is a segue into Chechen terrorism a grisly account ofthe kidnapping ofthe Israeli boy his rescue and the grateful call from Barak - These are brutal cruel people we 're dealing with Yesterday we broadcast an interview with one of Maskhadov's deputies who talked quite openly about the need to kill all the Jews There are of course other manifestations of Islamic fanaticism and extrremism but the Chechens go farther than others Yet your Secretary of State meets with this Akhrnadov the so-called Chechen foreign ministry We don' t regard that as a friendly act And then there are these alleged mythical atrocities committed by the Russian army They're spoken of all the time But people keep silent about the real atrocities I believe our special services understand the real facts and keep in good contact with each other Let's toast our cooperation in general including on that account Putin then starts trying to wrap up the dinner noting that the ministers and other guests have gathered for the jazz concert He does a cursory review of the agenda for the next days meeting - POTUS I'll certainly want to discuss economics in detail including how I can be of help We'll also need to deal forthrightly with the strategic issues including missile defense I'm also interested in your view of Russia's longterm strategy for integration I think you ought to go into the WTO as soon as possible I know you 're going to China soon and I'd like to talk to you a little about that I'll also want you to talk to you about the Balkans Maybe we could have a small meeting in the morning Whether we make a deal on missile defense or not I've worked for s ·years for a strong Russia and a strong partnership I think you're the right person to lead this country I'm determined to reach whatever agreements with you I can and to manage our differences as well as possible There are a couple of things I'll want to talk to you about in the smallest setting possible not in a big group in the same spirit of candor you used with me just now Let me get the Balkans off my chest I don't want Kosovo to be independent American doesn't have a long-term strategic interest in an independent Kosovo or in the U S 's being the predominant power in the region at the expense of other countries' legitimate interests We have an interest and a 6 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 7 role ther but so do other countries We want to see the Balkans develop in a way that's integrated with the new Europe That's in our long-term interest I despise ethnic cleansing whether it comes from Milosevic or from guys like that one you talked about from the interview - Putin What do you suggest - POTUS Getting Milosevic out If that happens there will be less reason for you to worry about the U S predominance in the region because Serbia will gravitate back onto a more normal course including developing its natural ties of faith and blood with Russia I have no personal or political reason to want to stand in the way of good relations between Serbia and Russia But the problem is that guy being there - Putin I'll reply very confidentially It's impossible for me even to hint at what I'm going to say in public I'll count on our colleagues here to keep what I'm going to say in the strictest confidence What you say is fully in line with our own thinking about how to build peace and order in the Balkans But we havep 't figured out how to do away with Milosevic That's a problem for both of us He's deceived u s both Now - in confidence- I'll tell you that we've sent out feelers to ensure that he won't be there too long We've been probing through the very closest channels both family and military But he's a very very tough nut to crack he's stubborn as hell I know it sounds strange but he actually feels pretty confident You know the left-wing opposition was here I decided to let them come I didn't have to do that nor did I have to make it possible for them to be noticed I decided to provide proper coverage so that the people of Serbia would know that there 's a different kind of Serbia possible for them than Milosevic's So in principle we agree But it's not simple Let's assume we understand each other But let's look at the realities 2000 000 Serbs have fled Kosovo Compare that humanitarian catastrophe to 30-40 000 Albanians being driven out of their homes The Serbs are human beings too The process of Kosovo separating itself from Yugoslavia continues Like it or not Kosovo is no longer part of Yugoslavia So Milosevic is not the right man to lead Yugoslavia But we have to be careful not to make it a public political objective to remove him He's democratically elected and it would be counter-productive to the Serbs for outsiders to be telling them who can and cannot be their leader Putin tries again to shut the discussion down and adjourn to the jazz conference 7 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 8 - POTUS I've got one more set of points he had to make since among other things Sandy Berger is discussing an aspect of it with Sergei Ivanov and I want you to have the full context when Sergei reports to you before we meet tomorrow - Putin in English Okay - POTUS I lmow this is a tough issue but I want to get back to missile defense and strategic stability I realize because I've listened carefully to what I've heard from my people who've talked to yours that we don't agree on this But there are some things I want you to hear directly from me I believe very strongly as my people have been saying to yours for all these months that Phase I ofNMD is not a threat to Russia or to mutual deterrence We're stuck with mutual deterrence until we invent something better to take its place - something that we both agree on But while I believe that strongly I believe just as strongly that the North Korean missile program is a threat to us and it's a threat that's coming at us very fast There are one or two others countries that will also threaten us in the next 5-10 years Now please understand and believe what I'm saying I've got a tough decision to make I haven't made it I really haven't I'm going to do what makes sense in the long-term interests of my country- and also in the longterm interest of what I believe whether you agree or not is in the interests of relations between our countries There's a test coming in July That will have a lot to do with the criterion of technology There are three other criteria as well You know what they are I'm going to have to balance a lot of different factors But the key thing for you to know is that this isn't driven by politics I'm not just trying to cover Al Gore's backside here that's not what this is about You may not agree with me but I may conclude that we have the technology to deal with this threat Now there are two reasons why I think it might be in your interest to work out a deal along the lines of what I've proposed Number one I might make possible a more ambitious START ill agreement than we can do otherwise Number two ifwe do make an agreement it will be a strong precedent establishing that any future steps on missile defense would have to be based on agreement Let me say something about the Principle·s Document we're going to sign tomorrow It's a good solid step - but it's an interim step It gives us more time That could mean more time to do something while I'm in office or it could mean more time if you chose to wait for my successor I think you'd be making a mistake as I've already said but in any event I think we've got a framework here that protects both of our options My options include 8 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 9 proceeding with technology that I'm convinced will work in the time frame of the threat Your options include either doing a deal with me or with the next guy The Principles Document also reaffirms mutual deterrence while at the same time acknowledging the need to deal with new threats It's respectful and reaffirming of the ABM Treaty respectful and reaffirming of strategic stability between the U S and Russia But North Korea doesn't have the right to threaten the U S or anyone else with nuclear weapons and missiles There's nothing in the ABM Treaty protecting that for North Korea Now I know you've made this proposal of your own about boost-phase intercept I'm willing to work with you on that But I can't make working with you on that a quid pro quo for my dropping NMD if our people believe that the technology is there that will deal with the North Korean threat Boost-phase may have promise but it will take another 10 years or so and the North Korean problem is coming a lot faster than that So the bottom line for tonight if you decide you'd prefer to deal with my successor I can do something that will dramatically increase the time you '11 have to do so that is so that you won't be dealing with someone who's got about 60 days to make a decision of his own and to make a deal with you and who's scared to death of looking weak We're caught in a time warp here 30 years from now people will look back on the Cold War and the U S -Russian nuclear stand-off as ancient history the U S and Russia will be working together against new threats - rogue states that are threatening the world with chemical and biological weapons and suitcase bombs new threats deriving from religious and ethnic conflict and religious extremism How do we get on the right side now for that point in the future- how do we make sure that we're part of the same system working together - and not let ourselves be trapped in the Cold War mentality while at the same time keeping mutual deterrence strong between us until we come up with something better And how do we take advantage of the opportunity and the responsibility we have to bring levels of nuclear weapons much lower I believe we can have a helluva lot of mutual deterrence with smaller arsenals That's the question and the Principles Document combined with our proposal is a good way forward to a common understanding I know it's tough You do things I don't in Chechnya and I do things you don't like in Kosovo but even while we manage those disagreements we've got to deal with the common problem of missile threats That threat is a certainty put alongside that certainty the possibility that our country can put up a defense that doesn't threat mutual deterrence but is strictly speaking a violation of the ABM Treaty and that means I've got to make a good-faith 9 FL-2017-13804 B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 10 effort with you to figure out how to change the treaty - not to ruin it but to make it hold up for 30 years So you've got your decision to make and I've got mine Wb atever I do I promise I'll never support putting Russian in an untenable position with regard to mutual deterrence Just don't think that this is a political problem for me it's a strategic problem a real strategic problem If the best we can do is the Principles Document - and if I decide to go ahead with NMD - then I want to buy you as much time as possible to deal with the next guy That's the background of Sandy's conversation with Sergei Ivanov It's all about reaching an agreement sooner or later and not having a train wreck - Putin It may surprise you but I agree with you in contrast to some of my colleagues including several in the Ministry of Defense In the future suitcase bombs are a much bigger threat There are some points where I could take issue you with For example when you say 'We have to do it now ' I think it would be better to focus on the threats that we'll face 30 years from now - POTUS interrupting I've got to focus on threats a lot sooner than that - Putin who seems rather thrown offhis stride for a moment - genuinely surprised at the push-back Okay but we have to think carefully on how to avoid any wrong steps I can see perfectly clearly that the U S isn't getting ready to deliver a nuclear strike against Russia But we've got to treat the balance between us very carefully with an eye to the future as well as to the present As for what the experts including your own in the presence of my experts tell us - I think it confirms a lot of our fears He then repeats a distortion ofwhat Sergei Ivanov heard in the tank- an alleged U S military confirmation that NMD is designed to protect against a triad and Russia is the only country with a triad other than the U S itself- therefore NMD is anti-Russian That's why our people think the balance is upset or is going to be upset He then talks about a speech Primakov gave in the Parliament today about how Russia will need to take counter-measures in the form ofshorterrange missile capability against U S ABMfacilities in Europe probably referring to Phase II radars in UK and Greenland POTUS interrupts briefly to say that Putin may not understand the phasing ofour system and proposal 10 FL-2017-1 3804 - B-00002629421 UNCLASSIFIED 2 27 2025 Page 11 Putin My point is there's a frantic search going on here for countermeasures and it could lead to an unexpected response He then asks rhetorically ifPOTUS knows the origin ofthe Soviet nuclear program Then he tells the tale ofLavrenty Beria being put in charge by Stalin ofthe crash program to get nukes Beria gathered all the scientists who had anything to contribute assigned each of them a task and a deadline Those who met their assignment on time were made Heroes of the Soviet Union those who didn't were shot Later after deStalinization a lot of those who were shot or sent offto die in the camps were posthumously made Heroes ofthe Soviet Union Then he comes to his point quite a few American scientists spied for the USSR and passed along nuclear secrets to the Soviets - not according to our host because they were traitors to their country but because they believed in you guessed it mutual deterrence and wanted to make sure peace was assured by there being a balance - POTUS Interesting I believe in mutual deterrence and balance too That's why we're doing this document and making this proposal The dinner ends and they go offthe jazz concert 11