ORIGINAL NATIO iAL SECUF rTi lt ORM 1' - ··· ·-i n 1ccl or- z·cd·t t - -fo s - ' Vol 1 OF J- 1 0 tr 'P1i 1' • · · ' '-·-· • lfo07 Report of Proceedings Hearing held before Senate Select Co ittee to Study Governmental C Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities I li I • C 0 L· Wednesday October 15 1975 1 111J ••• - ' • 1• I V R I 'J t• ' • • ' 11 L l i• tJi 'T'Tt r 1- T - l 1 T11 l t l' jl •t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 J M M· fil -m- Approved for ele ase 20 102101 C9009508 _ 1_- j 'IS H tc - s B l' • · SHELBURl'lE lyn h · __ -_ ···-· ··· u - _ _yTO ----------- ------- - 1 C 0 ''I N T E tl T I_cs tir iony of I II I Sidney r ottlir b --occor ii onied by-'ferry F Lenzner Counsel I ii i v - II Ii 6 iiii 7 i 1 i' I 3 11 ' ----· ----- - 'I Ln l I '-- 11 l r- 1 c - ' J J e i I C iiI I J J I l '- l 1 11 II L l '' I I v G C Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 s ' 1' ' ' SHELDURl-1 C lync 0 0 0 ' e STJ Ff INTERVIE -1 1 ' 0 2 I 'I II 1-lednC sday Oc to her 1 S i 0 l '17 'i I 6 llnir ed St itcs Ser i' t0 I Select Committee to Study Government ' I i 7 orerutions with n espect r n I l 1 s i - -- o ·l 1shin ton 1 l1 9 I'-- II I J ' · 'I c e Int1 l1i qcnce l ctivitic T111 J n 0011 Staff 1nct c· ursuont to notic0 Tt' d - ' 1 ·'I• L l' 'J C 1 S o'clock n r1 t 10 C a 1itol ' u -ton iidcs 0 0 0 H D • _r •1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 r - l '1 1·' 1·11 iot · 1 ' ' Ji 'l' 2 0 0 0 I ' e N 0 I TESTIMOHY OF S ID 7EY GOTTLIED l J CCOMAP IIF D DY TERRY F RESUHED I N G i' LE1lZNER cou SF L Ii lj 0 ' ·Ir Gottlieb •Wuld you state your full nur ic Hr l' idcs and the tddress at which you cun be reac - cd by the C0 11 1ittcc· Sly name is Sidney r ottlieh -- I can he Dr Gottlieb 6 reached through y counsel Hr Lenzncr I 7 i r f Is it correct th 1t you a -c continuing icles ondcr the o 1th previously a dr tinistere8 to i'• _ ' OU t o testify on Jc a 1 ot t hc Cor i ' li t tee Yes Dr GottliC'h c I um i I L - J C _ 1 · l i -- ' ' ' 1- l'i rector o - er ' irP ctor c·01·· • · oll• ·- i C I 2 sc rics n - tirr' ct5 v t u r -ic 1 o l • - n111 11t 1j •-· •'• 1S t _ rc- rri to r J CJs o' ' ctivili- •r · r 1 H' ' - - - - · ·----·--·---- - •' Appro-ved for Release 2022102io1 C00095085 l · - r cd l o CL ttur• to s' · · 0u 1 · l 't 0 0 0 ---- l J ----------- ----- ---- e 1 - 0 N 2 u C 0 t · ·_· - - Mr Lenzner · 5 Mr Hides 6 One of the guidelines indicates that in the future there You had left the Agency · - ' I understand that ---- t ' - r - _ ·· Q 7 should be no support by the Technical Services Division to 8 domestic intelligence operations of L e Deparment of Defense I'-- if yo11 cvn rccaJJ i 9 10 any activjt_ic2-Jo 1 1 ich· this rnir ht refer that is if you· have uny recollection of D fe11s• 1-1hcrc nc1 it 111· C 11 e I 1 12 p J ii 'OU r -cL itcd to clo nestic c3Ctivitic t c· J I'I 1 1-•cr •Join i t o e involvec in o do 1cs' i- intclliq ncc o H 1· ·· c 1- '--· - _ tio -is J 1 i' 1 O f thn r cord discussion J '•Ir · ic cs 0 1 tt e record r - _ I j C l t 1 1t C it t ncs not 1 1 1en l ul 0 0 tion tl t 1- t 1e is not 1 icrclv in c-- rt 1 ir 1 the fu ur · t 1 _ · · ivcn ti L' spt ci _ cit- -· of thr 1ro - ' Jossi ilc i1 1i1licr1tion tth 'lt there 1- i S sue a sis -1 ·_ · I' 2 I ✓- 0 2 i' eithr r in his st itcf cnt or in rect rd to ln 1 ot' r r inf0rr iut • any sur ort - v · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 ' 1 -- f 0 0 o I -- ' -- - -------'- r I I 1 ir ipro Jcr 1 8 'I N p orera tio 1 ii 2 c C 0 · ·Ii iiI when this occurred if i t did occur · • 2· -· ·- · · · Mr IHdes No sir --it '·is· a pros pee ti ve guideline ii 5 I 1 ---- _ i · Wk t fai ·i _ · · ·- - -- - - JS ·7 ·· Dr Gottlieb ·- I· can ··answer tha t in the following Hv y 6 I take i t the statement doesn't indicnte Mr Lenzner I am just trying to find out if you cnn recnll I I I am not aware of any assiitance given by TSD the do cstic r activi tics of the Department of Defense intelliricncc nor i 8 9 - _ r -- C I 11 Ii 1 l • 12 L r rJ 10 J 11 Mr 1- iclcs P j to There arc two other directives ·1hcr0 I wt1nt to nsk you questions essentially in a similar vein nnc1 T m 1 c the representation to you 1 i r 1 •-10 One stntes c o 't c1•1e the i 0 l l -· document 1 erc today Division i 1 r iost of the sixties called the Dor icstic O er 1tio11 l- I l • - c in regard to the now call2J n - ourc s Division tne concluding sentence of th- ircr tiv0 is t i t ji lG i th 2 Forcic n csourccs nivision sh 111 1ot u i rtal ·- 0 1 un • 1-ty ciucstiori is a Jv in it icin 17 '· surrci tic ious entry in t e US J · understooc that ' in th past undertaken surre ticious entry 1 1t -it 1 as riivc f' 1-1f do not hi ' vc srecif jc ev i f cr c0 tr 1 t t'H '' ' h 0 0 o 1 ' u ci c 20 t lc Jh 9v tivc pregnant th 1t c 1 n be re21d into th 1t 2 tion t l t there h21s been in the µnst I 2% 1I assi t rnce irovi ed by the r _·cc' nical Services h0 innlic i- c o '✓ 0 1 · n - i ' ' 1 ivisi0n to t -- l 2 · 0 G- nr r ottlieb 2 - suc 1 Ct i Vi ti l' i i 11 --- ·• - · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 • T i f 1 ' -· -· ··- · 0 0 o---- - -- 'f - 0 N 2 u not aw re of any sue assis- You i N r Mr Hides 1 ·· tance by the TSD c 0 I Dr Got tleib ·1 Mr Hides I •1 1 11 11 6 I co Domestic Operations Division in the US I I do not or Gottlieb I 8 Do you have any knowle lgc nt all of 2 ny surrepticious entries by the Foreign Rcsou ces Division and the' 5 Right Mr Hides I If the Technical Services Division had rendered Services Division is it likely that you ould have known c hout 10 G 1 - 12 C C Or Gottlieb I lr · ides I woul l hove to say yes Ha'f 811's p i I aD a little hazy here on the s0ccific5 or Dr Gottlic' J q - 1 3 a- 4 l 6 I C 17 career over this reriod that I - as Chief of Sfl 11 I can say is that he certainly was involve 1 in activities fo l L part of that period J 2 ' rn1 for µc' 1 t cf i t he wus Chief of th r inc 1- ' 0 0 1 · 0 0 c c 2' ' C 2 w ' u· ' 2 I co11ltin't even rcl l l er that 1cci ic 1 or Gottlieb · hat is the form Jl titl o the r2 c • 1ith -11 - the so-cuU d µic s und locks branch luring most of your tcnu c us Chi 1 C 15 r the Hcud of ii I C Ui ' 1 _ 1 3 a ¢4 C it I i J TSO that was involved in tl c tcchnolOfJ' ' o means o s rrc - ticious entr ✓ · L 2 'i ' · 25 I' 1 1 Or Got tl i Hr i cs ea I dic·1n' t in t' c e1_ucstior to h Jve i r · ' · 1e 1 -1l f fJ ' 't W ' I • 0 ________ a ____ _ 0 ' 8 1 overtones N 0 or Gottlieb 2 You will-see in a minute physical entry to facilities -Ir Wides C 0 as distinct from photographic or secret writing ct cetera was there a 5 particular bra ch that dealt with that area or Gottlieb 6 I C cou C C 11 J -- ·· c- it 1- 1 1s usually d 0 1-1as no sc2c1r ite qrou 1 for surrepticious entr· 12 -e -wrong here bu L 11 y be r i9re connected with the training than with tr e o er 1tions i I 1s th 1 t t H•t·e 1 n i the second thing I wanted t o suy aho• 1t it I 10 I of some it was usually the subject with the area because I l nd as I rer 1c 1her it -- and training of other individuals 1 3 a 4 that dealt There were really two bninc cs 0 Jar t of tile udio O c 1 tions Eri'l nch 13 I• II Mr IH es ·las there a section _ il hin 14 t- -11 ' ranc -i t 1 1t clcAlt L-' wit h it 15 -- '-- t t'-- 17 I n' ally lon' t Dr Gottlieh lG i Ii Ci'l l tell you is that it • r ·1iic es F 1 a 4 C l 11 u 1-1 1s 1c I rerner 1l cr ti it the hc- st I in _that activi · ta l e i I th'cre • 1s' rainin- ranch 1 that - - · -1as co rn ctc 1-1it 0 r ci I 2 · i 2 · wr in Ii ii 22 l s I will cor i h ck tn t nt j 2· - Jut Col Jy 2 i nL t 1- a t' H cliri 'ctivc w 1ir h ir •'ic-1tcl cs nti lll• I 25 a no Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas· - --------------- 0 ---D---------- -----0 _ e purpose 1 of a false identity an I t N 0 2 specifically that it should not be used tn cast asocrsions or t 3 in any aggressive way against the alleged -- the person whose il identity was invoked 5 use by CIA or by any other J gcncy of mntcrials furnished by N 0 t CIA in the way o false identitification or alias identificatic 6 cc My question is whether you know of a y 7 to discredit the pe son who was the subject of the documcntatii 8 as distinct fro simply to have a false identity Dr 10 Gottlieb Yes t 1e ciu·r stion is v ry clear Is the 1 ncl m· 1 c answer is no 11 - e G J 11 0 r Hi les II 12 L 1 tion cards in the narrow sense but false Jocumentution -- c111 let me ac1d an i - _ Jortant qualificc1tion on thnt 1 c1bout oversr as O erations vith reg 1r 1 13 14 _ I Cl 15 lG 1 I c1m not t li i1 to forei Jners as p 1rt o' u covert uct 'ro a Junda cams airJn but 1 1 1 talking il bout ti 1--- 17 I s ecifically Ame ican citizens I Mr Lenzner 18 0 0 19 0 1 II ii I ci •Ir · · ic1es 20 j1 2 i 11 'I 22 11 0 2½ l nc1 that •-1 is ultir i 1tcl 1 in connectinr • 2C I· I But I ar i t -il · in• about a situation where the use o t hc c ocumcntati on itself ••1as to iscrcc i t t '2 rerson • ·ho 2 o rcrhars with t - cliscreditincr oi1erution l C C Are you inclutlic t c provision of alios 1 documentution to Howard Uunt c1nd C 01 uo·n r i lc y i u e n l that would inclu c not simoly i lentifi a- h· Js t' e u -iicct of the c acur ic n tc1 tion - r Lcnzner l nc you -ire 1sl in• ' j C cific -ill' -i ou it 11 _ _ _T_O-A JO ET · •• Approved for Release '2022 02 01 C000950SS · · _ · • e ' ' l· l merican 4 0 2 Mr h'ices 3 Dr ½ Ir co 4 0 C in training police and other law enforcement bodies State and 7 _local law enforcement bodies in a variety of technical 8 activities cir Gottlieb r er m nu Witness confers with counsei 11 Dr Gottleih I was aware o this activity that you arc 11 12 ii ii ii L U-1 l inr o1 Jout M - I l G Jffs 10 C C Returning to t ' e question of traininc il re yo•J 6 J aware generally or do you recall generally activity hy TSD c · · · · ices ii1 h'ic cs lhat incl of Ograns di d this involve Sp cific ll1 di l this involve persons from TSD to your now- I' 15 ledge 90ing to a local area and givinq i structions demonstra- 16 tions or advice or did this only involve law enforce cnt 17 personnel cominri to Hashington to u regional TSO office for 18 sor ie sort of -- as part of· a 5eminnr- or clc ss -- or --'hut i n I'--- 0 0 0 N 19 ci I 11 of arrange ents were used I c i 20 I Dr Gottlieb 'l'hat is l complc - 1ucstion or n tn ans· -· - I w II 21 I 22 almost entirely the latter 23 l u u 1 II l°'Y general ans cr to it would he tho it •r1as to ra t rer cr 1br ir r 3ut I want to nc1k the cxccptio I c in rcr icnber ut least one incident t ' t hi'lci to c o · ·ith th - '-0 J I 5 9 - •• 0 24 letter bo ihs -ihere ccnuse of t e u -gcnc · · nn·' r - cuusc of 25 whole lot of other things -h ·Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 TS •-1 10 • •ere -' _ · e t 1 New York Police 2 domestic but 0 3 0 '_ _· · 4 inalyze the problem an _defuse_·the bomb 5 I guess you wou · a ·i t ¾ l f ·they That w s training did go That was out of the pat t · · s f i t i 6 To make sure the record is accurate Mr Lcnzner I thinr 8 you asY cd whether the police would come to Hashin0ton or the - 9 CIA or oul l the TSO go to the police c 10 it was usually the latter c J C I or C ottlie 1 11 ilr t ncl I think you said l n l I think you r can t soi ry T nr rnt the ' ot-r 1 r police -01 1lr cot'1'' tlit' II 12 iiIJ L 4 ' __ 0 · l C Ii llS -II ii nd I didn' lii lcs I 1 mP an initiated hy TSD is 14 I _ i com oncnt I 1II lle was talking zibo11t L 1 tci anc1 fonnci Dr Gottlieb C _ ' l Ii 11·' ' I 1 1 I• c I '· I I lr ides j 1· I lG r isunderstoo l the o lcr in the sentence Vi 10 were the heads of tlie ti a inin br inc 1 t u t· 111 the er io 1 tho t you were Cl ie of n 0 0 0 N v c i Dr r ottlie't 19 j· 21 I um try in to i emcmht r coulrl •i 'fOU •i ' - ' 2 i' I I I• ii 22 1 if you 111 ntion Ii • r · it CS i Ee• 1 c1 r 1 no' tr _ i i to 1vit 1holcl t 1i s l ut n 1ncs I - - i ht rcc ll t · r 1 I •I I 2·1 · 2½ i E 1I ' -1 f the n cor l iscus i0 · I 2 Ii • 11· • · Approved f r Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 records to 1 N 0 2 C 0 4 the police 5 grour did with thu 6 training what they did with the other 8 of it 9 lfl I don't Mr 1 i les 0 J they would have records lould it be your unr1erstan lin J that they Oul have records of the names of persons train0 u or at least or c ·· t -ic loc 1ls t wt is the Los Angele Police 0 partr lent or -- J ' I 12 L e ' That w0ulJ be my i prcssion or Gottlieb 4 0 r1 · 1 1 c es You don't - now J L c on record· for CI traininci - __ 1 1 - lG f i 1- Gottlieb i m surprised i thc 1 don't i--- r · ides 17 1 for cthcre trilinin• hztVP ye I ould ie those recorcis 1-loulcJ there also be record s ccific 1lly as to Hlla t l in s of tr 1ininq ns given by ty cs suc 1 as surr' ticio 1 l 0 ntry or ' 'ic s an 1 locks n 0 0 0 N u 0 C C 2C Dr C 8ttlicb 2 t- r - ides I WU lt t 1i nk so • ere you iware throw your qen8ral convers 1- i 22 n ti0ns • it 1 other senior personnel in the ency of any efforU •I 2 ' y CI to 90 l 1cx to loc il or Stc1tc lctv ' r n orccment aqcncie 25 truinin0 in un Efort to encour 1ge or request thnt they use· u 0 Jl T O ET ·· Approved for Release 2022io2101 C00095085 - -t ---- - J - --- - --§----• I - 'f - 1 would be i tcrested those N 0 N 2 in i C 0 4 wouldn't 5 Mr Wides Are you aware -- · - ·-' ·· · iitS f ✓- -· - · Dr Gottlieb · · If rfunderstrid your· question ure you asking 6 ·' ··-· ·-_ _ - h · i ¼ Si -t 1· me whether I know of ny in idents where some officers trained 8 in some technology by TSO were l ter contacted and asked to do · - · - - - · some technical operat ans C Number one I such 3 i- r 11 Dr Gottlieb cu For second hand CIA oper tions 10 ·I ides 6fiiest c · My answer is i have no surch knowledge J e C- J 2 I I was not ilWare that the procedure wus followed L 1 any s ecific r nowledge thut any such haprcned nor do I h i · 0 C' ii Mr Wides 1 c_ Off the record I c 15 u lG Off the record discussion I Mr _- _ lhdcs D ck on the record What about any recollections you r iight have of operations 17 in the us jointly partici afed 1n M tIA a a local police in the are J s o 3 uco-o erations or tcc 1nic 1l surveillance 0 0 0 Just r u D 21_ i vitho11t bcino sµecific first clo ' Oi l rec 111 a vin J any a· 1 u ·- - - 1 c _ • jI of tl-i 1t us distinct fror i oricrut ions 22 I embassies where t re mic r t- hove een coo2cration with the Fi ' I I I ii for exur t ' lc involvin or other federal a cncies h e I 2 Witness conEers with counsel 25 or Gottlieb ly recollection there that is relevant to · _ · ·· - _ 1' Approved for R lease 2022 02 01 C00095085 - -· t '¢-t ' '' ' A't 'f ' 0 -- o - - - - · - - - - - - - --'-l-- o ' ' ·e ' i of cquiµment bein 1 N 0 N 2 i C 3 0 4 5 6 I 'I Dr Gottlieb 8 My· recollection is of a local police · f -t $ j_ ' · · · dcpart rnen-t -1ashin iton-cir Fa r ax a - · - ·- ' -- - - - -r Mc oii rea7 10 Mr Wi es 11 Dr Gottlieb 12 •Ir lli es Dr Gottlieb a Yes J e i c I You lon't recall any from ot cr locations 0 u 11 No I do not 1 l l ' I 1 G L' f l· 1- r Vides OEf t - c r cord discussion H i·' r i ie3 I lo l' c ere spea in about the ' SD n s 10 1s it i l ii- · 1 I· 1 Off t e record overseas rc Js rding auc io-opcrc tions I irst i y i' Uc io 1 1 t' - ii M 0 0 electronic surveillance in the Jay - ian's und -sti'l -ic ' ins of l9 0 N ' u 2 ' i 0 C 0 ' - oth 11 C C w 2 Dr Gottlie - l1 2 I Yes i•lr 1- i cs 11 si tic o t re ' c a c encral 2 jurischction 1 l 1 C rC• 1 nt in c1 r • _ · 0 II 25 i by TSD nnc1 th t the primary sihility domcsticall'l ' vOU _ ' _· • · Approved for Release 2·022102101 C00095085 · · 13 1 I I in the office of Security 2 C 0 1-1 r In regard to foreign au lio-o erations - i c1c s When you asked that ucstion w 1cn you say Mr Lenzner 5 domestically do you mean who would control it 6 gency in the US 7 10 r Lenz er 11 1r lo ides C J 12 L I 0 l • It woul be the -r cc 111ir 3l Services nivision i nil in t 1e US that responsibility 1 11 C Or audio surveillnncc overseas · c 1101Jlr' in the Office or I Security 11 I• l· ith- r c' 0rcl to ov rse J s o cr itions r id you I C ' '' ' 1c1vc 1 l c 15 L' lG r-- 1 · occasion to l- n01-1 1-1 eth r T r i ric an 1 1 1s eit -i r II j i Dr Gottli0b C lr - ic1es l C t J rc_11ct nr 1-1 1• I nr hesitatin• cc 1usc ir is iJ ry yt n r 1- u s t i o n 0 0 -i overhear in an audio o er J tion •I l 1 · Let ic 10 b icl - C -- Division 2 s to the tar Jct by 1- 1 - I' natur0 o a huilclinn or the 1cilit• 2 - not any policy decisions G' C meant which component would hove the rr imary responsibility for the technical aspects of it c - e in terms of th not who controlled domestic audio surveillc1nch I lr Wides 8 - That is my rcmerilirance or Gottlieb r 2 - ' ' J - r t tl ic Approved for Release· 2022 02 01 cooci'gs SS c a n not s i n l ·1 the 1 · ut t 1e c itcr ory of -- -r r f' ' •· ' • ' s ' 8 -0 ---·---- - 'f II 0 I 1 possible 0 Now ·in llJ1Y practical setu that is never area s they could Iara sure the Audio Operations 3 anch was uware o the nature of some of t0c targets II beyond thnt i I- I was nei nc 7 a' Jou t t 1rcc te 1s to that extent less awa e I 'I 5 Ii 6 So oe might have occasionally been awa e of the category if not the identity of the invidividuals w o have been over- II 7 heard but less frequently t han the Dranch Chief I 'I 8 10 CD I I a 11 J 12 O era tional -Or Gottlie i Ii n es trictcd to the or er 1 tionc1 l 9rou1 th i t 1 jt 4 think so nct- even then thacwas- rc ' trictcd to th- - ---1 ·c- -- G I or Gottlieb 1· d i d i t I 0 1 J i 1 C 1 r I I i des loulc there he any records to ·our l- nowle ' •' 1 or 1-mulc ou think there woulc1 he un reco s hus cl on your 15 experience in the Audio Drunch reqarclin t e n it re of the C ' _ l0 C r- 1 ·-I I J· n tarc e t jl Dr Got t l ieb i' Every effort would hnve h en raade to I l minini c th it i i th best tvay I co11l ns• ' t t 0 0 0 u j_ ' · r l' iclcs Th0 next question h 1scr o 1- ·h t j1Jst C C cit 1- c t 1 t 11 r icrici'ln • - us th tar' ct of a 1 o' tersc is iudio J 2 O cr ition or lcc rninci without sccin J th ilCtt al ta 10 s · U 2 i 0 th 1 e L'I t i r - ' 'itncss CO lf c - i 1 1 cnttn 'l ___ i _ _ - T O Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 · ----- ------- --- 0 ' ' e i I l 0 •i N 2 G i I think my bese answer to that question Dr Gottlieb ti Excuse me ·Ir 1-lides If you want to have any off the I• - C C record colloquy with me on that you may do so f I will do it off t 1 c rcco -d if it 1 s Dr Gottlieb 5 1 helpful j· I 'I 6 No t·lr · ides Dr Gottlieb I think my best inswer to that would be thnt I h0d an awareness generically that in conne tion with the c · a- targeted i9ainst 1 mericans ohroad si'ncc 1 h2 d a CJeneral C · Dut I as never aware 1 · · • i reness of wh it their mission v1as · Si ecificolly that on t 1 is day in that countr' this r erican J -- e C 0 ·las t ccrc ever any discussicn that either you Ir · 'i es 3 narticin te l in or t nt you were aware of c- - -cgardinq any • 1 0 constrt1ints 1 s_ policy l ' 'l ittcr on conc1uctinc i udio oricrations i u· r---- j_ - Can we go off the record for a inute nr f ottlicb i- Off the record 1i cussion · l Ir • i C 0 0 0 li1c 1· on the recorc u c lr ottlic I • involved in discussions o · r ' ii lcs r But I Lr i 0ttl r b ·- r · 1 tii --it in tall 1n tht1t cont t tas 0 it you · ere c1· • 1rc of t c Cl J OS r t S _ - --------- ----------- ------ --T_O_P----i f 5 '· ____•' _·_E_T_·- - - - - - - ' Approved for· Relea 2022 02 01- C00095085 5 Mr Hides i 6 Dr Gottlieb· - r i audio 10 J l i ' J '• c 1 12 L i L' 16 furnishing any assistance in the arc 1 either of audio covcr iCjc I I Dr Gottlieb I I n -'ir h'it1e 19 i 11 I C C i- r litlcs e nn't hnve any pcrsonnl re cmbrnncc of Do ' 'ou rec 11 1-1 ct P r you ha er eL1 to learn o -iny o Jcrutio11s abro nu· io or surrc ticious - nLry 1n • -1 1ic l' · 7 either o tho i' ii 2' For an o eration i 1 tlte US l 1 2 In the US or Gottlic 1 I' 20 to co plete tSe record or surrerticious entry to the CIL 0S programs 18 C C 2 1 • ET ' - · I -- and ask you whether you recall I a c' asked you on the record 1-1ith 1 ' 17 u ·IC ·1 D 0 0 0 I believe let cc just go bncl -- I am crying to refres your recollection' I 1 - ' I 15 · ' icles reyar l to TSO qarticipation 1 n domestic i u lio o erations c I think I -i l cc There were very I I the in for our coo eration asked when - T--the t _ r _9f 1 t an or il briefing but I J nd I must have gotten area i- r I 0 I do_ _' _ t-ft t it -ow I beca - ie aware of it really don't remember the ·context of it 1 ir j ftfii few written thing3 I remer iher seeing about it 8 c It st rted out as a very_ ns tive_ project 7 a--· Yes ' -- - Approved for ·R le se 202 D'o210 cooogsoas I - --- -- __ ____ ·- --- -· 1 N 0 2 0 C 0 3 € t 5 6 8 evidence of that e - 10 made u broad 11 purposes 12 braodcasts were r ionit orcd in an effort to pin ·aown ltnesses for rrosccuti o and not in regard to other people hut that has J ' _ - C L 0 C - 0 c l 0 15 l - r Lcnzner -ir - ides Cl Pin do n witncssc3 Off the record the record discussion 1G Mr Hides 17 Wh t about either Janes Fonda 18 Dr Gottlieb 19 Mr · ides 20 Dr ottlieb 21 r Hides 22 Off the record' Dack on the re core '-- llo n 0 0 0 N C corge McGovern u 0 c0 Ho C r i w ' Let me co ae back to 1ctiv i tics u u - - - 0 23 Off the recor l discussion 24 1r ides 25 Dr ottlicb Dack on the record there were Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 in r ieri 2 was N 0 N 2 u C brcar in 3 0 of representr1- 4 with ' 5 t 1I I in the late 6 their 7 spring by the TSO in I other con nee tion wi thi 8 particular thos breakins - I c- 10 or Gottlieh 11 '-Ir Lenzner C I am not awar6 of any Durt let e ask you this J e C I L questions ago you asked couple of 1 - ant to be sure I got the r ic• r i- ·1 ri' ht -- wl1ether TSO h id fur 1ished any ossista ncc in 0 I thi 1 14 su rvc i l_l i_nce or su r rep t ici ous entry in the CS as a ''' r t of G 15 o cratiP 1 Cl OS ' 16 _ 1'- -Ir llic cs Mr 17 18 1 Lcnzner 11 is thc1t the question Yes ThAt is not directly r lc1tecl to the ques tir r of the hrc· -il in' in in the E ' 1ilean Fm-r- ilssy· · no you h w 1n· i evidence that CIA assisted in ony HO Y in c 1 onestic opcrotio - s 0 0 0 regarclin' o er tior C lf S •Ir l ic cs nd I not in regard to auclio or surrepticious er r · · just have to go hack on l check through ny files a little u u iore cor ipletely before CJivcin you u other kinci of tcchnicAl c1 i ancc 0 25 involved in the ail program - - - --Approved for Relea e 2022102101 ccioo so s c i ciuicl a nsHer as to a - ·- c ictting so ie o · ll 1 0 r- -_g________ ' ------fM-- ' audio 0 C 0 t The Office of 5 ·1 6 I US geographi- I 8 C' c rarticirated in cit cr in terms of· provi ling e uipment or J L er C _ - Dack on the r c r -- which TSD personnel · • -- · _ 11 - - Wides - r 12 assistance or 1n some cases actually 2nrticir ting in the 0 C J 13 runnin J of thQ operation is thc1t co -rcct C 14 'itncss con cr-s with counsel 0 15 i '• r 0ottli l-i I had a general iwarcn ss of that 1' 16 J •j j '-_ 17 l 15 0 0 0 r 2C 2' I 0 the record tl c recor l c1iscuss ion 'I r Hides ll ick on t 1e ·n corc I •I j 1J ci Off Off r 19 ·I ides Ir a i i there •· cr e sor ie i·J io Oi • ' r 1 tions t c or surrc ti cious entry i 'I ·• o erations in the US in whic the cchnic i l Services Di• isio 1 22 -las involved although it did not h we primary· responsibili · · 2 here 24 t c t correct 25 nu in res onsc to an cr1 rlie ' ' r-rucs i on -- first Dr ot tlieb Yes · - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 is · sr·it t- 1 · -s - c - • ·2 y w - 1 c· - 7 p-rZ-- li'- -_ - f- - ' _ -'-' ' '· g ---- I --- ---- ' uestion you l N 0 or coulci 2 US u C l 0 in which not € turgets is thc1t t TSO 5 6 of both answers th t 7 purticip i tion 8 us far as 9 t n n--so called I CV I I in 10 in the US 11 forci0n fucilitics or foreign citizens th n cCfonsr c I J j 12 h 1t is correct or r o t tl ich 4 a 1 C II l t JI Ir Notwithstanding that answer ra iy I for t c ·1ic1es rccorc1 s you if you are aw ire of any involvement of TSO C 0 u- 15 1 S a 4 any kinJ of surveillance of newsmen such i i J ic i nJerson c1r' ' I C I'- 111 16 his associi tes or 17 the late sixties and very early 1970's lo or r ottlicb I was no uware o any sn involvc cnt in 0 0 0 19 those c ises u ci c 2· · C r ' _ Off the rccor l discussion w ' 22 'Ir ' -lid es _ nacl on the rccor l 1_ •nulcl the sa 1•· V ' e - 2 ' ·' _ 1· 3 a C nc ativc nswcr he true in rcg rd to an surveillance o hat is TS - involve r cnt t 'lt •1ou er- - ·-· · · - - -·· - • · Approved for R leas 2022 02 01 C000950 S ·- ' · - - ci · - r 8 ' ' 1 ' fa Of was no such surveil 0 ' 2 or 0 € '· _ _ 711 1 i t ' - _ - lance 11 _· --· Hides 1 ·- So to su up with egard to domestic I surrer- I 5 oreration I 6 8 't had occurred 0- II 10 co 11 C- 12 L a US I J - it would have been undertaken by the Office of Security in th0 13 to he pinne down to testifying yes on the last part of it lC 1 C The last part of it I can't -- I cton't wan o - r ottlich ' That is a pretty spcculntive question Mr Lenzner ' D 15 LI i 16 because I don't know thc1 t Ir ·licles r·-- I wanted to contrast that with the situation abroac • here 1 take it your ans er is that ncr icans rn i y h - been tar1eted hut you arc not a rarc o beine told that n 0 0 D 0 Can we go off ci1e record Gottlieb N This 1ue ti0n hus alrencly been asi ed i rv u c i C 0 2 w 2·· answe -cd 'I o - Gottlieb can we go off the -ecord Eor a minute 1 Of E 2 · - r thr record discussion l ic1cs liacl· on th 0 rcco re has seen Let me rcµresent 2 - -- ' · ' ·' I - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 0009-5085 0 0 0 -- ·e 1 ' 0 N 2 C 3 overheard over the ·las te years in audio operations ahro d 'l And let me ask you bi cd on your experience in thP l gency 5 ho· that inforr c ion could have been obtained if you have a ' ' 6 thoughts on that7 0 € · - Mr Lenzner - --------- - 10 · Before I had th •· · - · -·· · bee surveiled abroad C r• • That is a slightly different represcntatio 9 O · -- -· of what happened than what you said before 8 r- _ 11 Mr h'ides · Electronic al-ly 12 ' ' 13 Mr ·liclcs J ' L Lenzner No• r you arc S 'l ying thi t they were overhea 0 l C l½ C 15 U Yes that is what I r icant hy electronic surveillance Ir Lenzner There is a suhstanti 'll difference het1 ecn 16 electronically being overheard and being the tarqet o the 17 surveillance r--- 18 Ir ' -lides I did 't mean tQ say hey were el ctronicnl 0 0 0 19 survci led u 0 ' 20 incc I I I l J I I 2· 24 25 l n l t e UCstion I have is ta e it ven within tl t c tc ory you answer ou -· actu ll' stunri t'-- Z tt the TcchnicZ ll crviccs Oiv i sio rcc0 - as L i r as · ou 22 _ I meant overl1ear l inc of r Oh' oulcl not huve been u hl P to 1rotbcr ti1 1 infocC1 1tion ' 1sccl on your- P rericncc in the 1 i you '-iu' 'C an·_ thot19hts 011 been produced c o i 1 hocl r- -- Appro ed for Release· 2022 02 01 C0009508 I ho1v thZ tt inforr 1 itio 1 coulJ - 1· per io·l 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 CJ' Mr l-Hdes ·I can't know what you mean hy staff elements 9 C'- Ther·E S_gS_ a- staff structure that involved 10 the CI Staff and the FI staff and several ot 0r staffs 11 remcmher all of the n • 12 staff structure around the office of f OP a 13 Mr Hides 14 Off the record discussion c I don ' nd those were whut I considered the J - • 0 e C G 15 C L -Ir l·iides Off the record Do you recall an insta ce in whic TSD provide 16 a reL itively unsophisticated device to t e F lI for use il J l 17 the domes tic t 1rgc t 18 -ir Lenzner 0 0 a ' 19 That is aryout 3 s __ va Ju y I have ever hcar l 1 worded rpicstion Do you have a r 1er 10rnndur 1 that can hclr us i 0 on tliis Ir 22 23 0 • · ides Mr ·r enzner 11 1 no I don't huvc it h r Thnt could be cvcrythin' know wh t the device was 2• ·1 I •I 25 1 I I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009508S· fror i a toy do ' i anything l I I I I buy i t woull 12 cputy Director for Science c c1 Technology in l iy oE 1'173 in 13 the course of responding to Director Schlesin' cr 's request ' C • 14 C· summary of possibly quc l tionable activities 1 15 C I n Mo y o E 1 9 7 3 7 Dr r ottlieb 16 I do n I t th i n I 1- r1 l c ad of TS J then r- l'7 li Mr Wides I II Off the record discussjon Ii I 1- Ii Mr l· iclcs or Gott lich G J II · I w ' Off the record Dock on the record I woul just li c tc th r k you ' e orr - 1 · 1 c I leave for your cooperation in rc pnl t0 r1u0 s tions i - this rr• 1 22 on your c µeriP nce us lead of 2 J ncrally i ncl insoft1r as -I ht1ve beer involved in it t'H 'I'echnic 11 Services nivision 24 25 i I I souqh t your I· • - - _-- Approved for Release 2022 02 0fC00095085 - for · 1r __ - • g - --· 'i' e say 0 N C 0 2 schedule hy that we 3 4 I Ii 11 5 6 Ii i I 7 8 0 10 c-- · 11 events in the Congo- in 1960 · on which testimony was 9iven on 12 October 9 1975 13 myself or Dr Gottleib furnished any information that rcl ite ' 14 to the substance or srccifics of any testimony that n 5 Gottlieb gave since it h s been our position that the J 0 L 0 An l I can assure the Cor unittee that neither 0 0 I U 1 6 '- _ 17 J II le Committee should dcter iine ultir w tely in coorc1in ition with Executive agencies what information has been ade available to the public --in the Connitte s finc l r_ ort_' M 0 0 0 ' 19 u ci c 0 I In dicussions with r Schwarz ant other staff enbcr 2C it is clca - t 1t the staff sh rc s soc e c0nccrn ahout the l• 1 2 of their sensitive an heretofore class iecl infor 1ation 1nc 0C vi •I 22 i j our concern thAt the infor ntion was furnished to th nc u - 2 · ecliil wJii c our request for Or r nttli - - to testify Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 26 ago -- I can Ji _ - 1 ' Nick HarrocK of the N 0 N 2 u information rcgardin s C 0 New York · _ ·-_- -- -1 f X j ' or Gottlieb's alleged ·participation in the matters he testi- 4 fied about last week and nlso inquired into matters wl1ich rna· 5 · t r · · • relate to the testimony°• _ today one of which was the in forr to ti 6 he claimed he obtained from Committee sources relating to Chemo-hypnosis a term I had not heard before and or C ottli 8 - £ · - rticipation - in t h a t n d also information rel a tcd · _·fd_ i f _ ·- -- 0 ------ er- 11 J ec to something called Operation Hilltop which he described He _- --· called at approxi ately 5 20 on August 27th and said Opcrc1tic 10 - 12 L 0 13 a I ill top was a series of experiments and procccluros to t cs t I I ability of pco le to withstand mind hcn lin•J 1rugs intcrro J tion in treatment and that the Inspector General of the CL 14 C had end eel those experimcn ts and that they were farrnc l out 15 0 with the consent of the DDP LJ t to two private organizations 16 He also saicl that t' -lc reject was run uncler the supcrvi r-- l of the Technical ·Services Division 1a n 0 0 19 0 N u 0 1I C 0 2 l I - · 5 ·· · -i · · ·- · ·- ' I ·••· -· ·-- ii _ Ile said that there had been· injuries as a result of th • ·· ·t8S ts but no ci e i ths - 'nc' t cn hi' - cnt· i nto -- h· - aic1 ' ' '-' · -•• ' · •· ' • --' -· _ · ' '· · · _ - • _ '_ • · ' · -s · _ _ J l- becau se he hc C1 · t is infor nation fror 1 · - Approved f r Reie s · 2 i-2 02 01 C00095085 •• 1 0 2 c 3 0 i I aftet I II 4 i l 5 6 7 I l 8 - · ·• ···-c _ 'f 9 '- - -- - O' a --- -- _ _ ink I can s eak for the Committee _i ' '_ing thnt the -•-- - -----·- 10 Committee's rules and procedures were lenigned in order th it 11 rights of witnesses would be protected insofar as possible 12 and that confidential material ohtained either from witnesse o 13 or from Governmental agencies would not he li vulg c l i thou t 14 the au thori za tion of J -- - l - L - - - ·- 4 0 a J 15 D tr 16 tJ mrn i·- -2 - I am sure that the request that you have r iaclc of the Co nmittce will be considered by them and dealt wit approrri i - ly I '- 17 i 18 Off the record Off the rccrird discussion M 0 0 0 19 - Mr Ma vell On the record u ci 2 Ir Lcnzncr _ 'le found nftcr that tr lcphone cnll - ·· 4 Dr Got tlieh qrca tly· t - - · we ··J· r eiv- c1· l f fii • ··· -t o th news nedia · -··· · -· Approved for· Release 202210210 - • ·_ t te·r the ci 95085 · • ' 1 C 0 2 3 •• • - 4 5 • • - • • • • • 10 •- particularly in the • • • • be leaked avnilablc to the • • • Gottlicb's 9 • • the l gencies f • • • • • area 8 • • • • • 6 we wwould maintain ¥ I say • with reqard to Dr •• • • • • • tell both reporters 0- of the testimony for obvious reasons that the imrression J i that tile Washinqton Po t article left was that h'hatcvcr 0 C occurred rcg irJin J my client which went up to o nd ir cludi n the deat -i of Mr Lumumba was totally false 0 0 15 L 16 1 n fact are knowledgeable about your rig' 1ts Dr r ottlieb anJ l the circumstances under which you arc t stifying 18 understanding that this is voluntar¥ and that you are l'- Mr ax·well 0 0 I want to m i ke clear for the record th 1t you It is my accompanied by counsel thnt you i re ware that you have the 0 u ci right to terminate this interview at anytine and you·havc the C 0 C c 21 right to remain silent w vi 221 to not go any further without a Senator present and I under- 23 1 stand fror 1 your presence· here thtlt until such tim0 as you ' i 24 I' othen1ise inrlicatc you are agrcc iblc to remaining ·l 25 Ii IL 0 You have a right if you woulcl li c You understanrl that you hnvc a riq t to have s nator 'i • • · - ·· - - · - ·• --- --· · -·_ - ·- · · - · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009508S· ' ' A 'i - - - _ · - -' · N · you ncknowledge # 0 N 2 the deposition C 0 oath that you took 4 is that correct 5 6 the presence of t r Mr MaX -lcll 7 Lenzner indicates 8 1 t · y - · to have an attorney present tf'f · t f 3s Yi _C s - -- - '-- -i - 9 d --M --1L ce Un Zz rnLfe r - -- -jT lhl'·- '· · · i _- · · ·- ·· o 7 10 IC' - - ' l - I 11 J L That is an area that we decided not to If you woul l liY c to r iise it for tb J 12 0 C' 1 14 t U- rccor l or Gottlieh you may do so or Gottlieb Mr Ma -1cll - 0 15 U1 lG I -10ulc lU e to defer· tony counsel ·lhi t I • oulc1 li e to do tocl 1 -' is to call your attention b ick to the earlier years i Eter your joinini t'--- Mr Maxwell- question peo le about c 1 l n l it is not viluntary the-pre3enr c of his attorney 1 the CL 0n l ocus on thr work that w is bei n done hy the Cl 17 in recprd to the research _in the r i of - he testing of c1russ t 18 as well as research bein J don in reg Htl to the work of 0 0 19 ci 20 0 u opposition services in the area of dru s c 0 ' this rclc1tcs to narcotics ' Jut lso as i t rclc1tcs to t e 5 21 w 22 t- 23 IL j - f articul irly 0s largcrs JUcstion of the control of individuols willincJ or um i 11 ing the ectrnction of in' orrno tio n from those indi vidno l i 0 - or the perforr iance of actions by thos ' inc ivi luals either 24 cthicol standards 25 in accord ncc with or 2 3 other DOD 4 5 a series 6 7 of 8 at 9 0 10 but which you might 11 the events of those times • C'-· J · t II • 0 'a 12 13 and I appreciate your effort in doing do 3 14 0 15 1 j_ l understand the difficulty in harking back 20-odd years 16 - 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Dr Gottlieb Pardon me for a minute I want to consult with my counsel Witness confers with c6unsel Dr Gottleib I woul l like to ask you a question Has Morse Allen appeared and given sworn testimony Mr Max-well lie hasn't given sworn testimony interviewed at his house He was And he went over all of the infornv -' tion we had at that point on BLUEIHRD and ARTICHOKE to find out 'i whether he was unable to substantially recall any of the events I I' of that time Dr Gottlieb I He was unahle I raention that only beca·Jse seems to be the key innividual - •-· App roved for Releas 022 02 01 C00095085 - 1 for the file which was 0 N 2 dated 8 l lilliams' C 0 4 I I 1 ll ·_ - ___ I remember seeing that here Dr Gottlieb Let me looi 11 5 I• 'I 6 7 8 for it 11 The date again 11- Mr Maxwell ' Dr Gottlieb 8 June 19 51 11 Maybe that is not the one that I have ______9_-tt----J LL cu _ _- T h ·rn · - j f e r e n c e s ASPIC and the relation0- 10 ships between CIA and that oper tion C - 11 ··- 12 L d a 11 13 •I ·Ir 1-la cll Yen I was wondering if you recall cit cr specifically or generally I i 10 ' SPIC I' a 1 t Dr Gottlieb J C 14 15 l case that is not a specific cryptonum but rat er a military l ' funding channel Dr Gottlieb My remembrance of the word SPIC Wils a I L'i 16 That is all I rememhcr about ASPIC t Mr Maxwell Do you re embcr whether t at fundin0 chnnncl was used for funding the Special Operations Division at ·soD 0 0 0 the Special Operations Division at Fort Dietrick N J ci 2 ' -· c· 0 ' _ - · ' ii I rc-1lly don't hc VC a S ecific recollect in - of that You seem to be referring to it as a roject ct · itol y · vi Dr GottliC'b - Jl b t 11 '22 22 · as though it had a subst ntive a·srect· - r 1-la - e 11 •• ' -i · ·• • f -· • - Th 1t wusn' t what I r ieant · I sec l 'r ·Gottlich been Hut a·✓ •_· _ ·i l - --- - ' f J · 11 it 1ic h or might not fun din 1 1y · meMory · · is not 'th' i t •' 'J S i' tj e- • - · -·· ·- ' --- - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 - - ··--- ·- - 0 N ✓ C 2 the funding Z 0 € 4 or 5 of the word ASPIC ht1s you kn w a certain way th to do with 6 remember i t in the 7 context of that a 8 a to ASPIC 10 i 1--· That is the best rer icmhrance I have of that •1 designation 11 i be audited according Dr Gottlieb My rcnembrance -las th it it w i s i nepartm · ' j -c - l of D'2fcnsc -- I shouldn't say -- my best anSv er • -1oul l he y• 1 my imrression w is that i t was a scrviccwi le fiscal syste I c 14 auditing systcr i something in th t arc i C 15 I e C 0 jc J nr Lcnzner 16 vha t docs it stand or ctocs anyhody kno· - that 1 17 -Ir Ma ·well 18 I I I •I 0 0 19 1 i I'I I'I 0 ci g 2C' ij 1 or Gottlieb -tr laxwell No You can certainly find that out from DOD I think it was -le had one reference in t SOD docur ients to ASPIC I 2 I II· 22 tion in those clocurne nts · ·· you Hant us to rcat - r Lcnzner · Oo -Ir i1 u -1e 11 Yes 1' e 2 - •'I - '· ii 2 i ij l t v re re l Ucs tion on to answer_ I -ill do so i -- ' ----- ----- ------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 ·' _ ·- -· was a· 2 3 4 Dr 5 assistants or him 6 II I c '' action officer 7 for 8 I SO 9 I from SOI to There is a ·10 July 1951 The C subjecf --is the minutes of C• 11 Dr Gottlieb J -·- L -· C • 0 It C' C r before that is 25 May 13 Mr taxwe 11 • 0 I woul l like to call your attention to paragraph 4A which indicates 15 interrogation c_ti vi ties in Europe for MI COG is currently the 16 most needed BLU BJRD team This team would co pli ent or c 0 0 There is none in between the two 14 a a I only have one of 25 July and the one -I 3 i S 12 held 7 uly A team to supplement the -supplement the work of · 18 19 u ci c 20 J J 3 · ·t·· ' • - I· -- ' · ' ' •7 -' t t'it'i C z oo ' 'j ' -' ift ·· - #Fti if '% tPS iJj'' J' ii j - ' roved for Release 2022 02 01 -C00095085 I N 0 ' C 0 hn vc a re mer 2 s in the truth serun which - · r r• •- 4 5 for and I that think 6 7 Mr Mc1xwc 11 8 9 o· Dr Got licb 10 c-- two 11 e L 12 I r Ir c' lx- ·cll 12 ii I to the fall of 19Sl 0 lt C 15 L I 16 I il 0 0 N r 0 ' ' - have sor ie in ormatin -i about such 20 1 about the I Dr Gottlieb 'I I USC There wc1s a last memo I thinY- thtLt tall- ccl of ARTIC iOKC 2l i 22 I it is issociatcd in your mind • lt 1 2 Ii inclutlc Mr tL i -1ell V ' l e files that you ha vcn' t h H1 a chance to rev icw c1s y ct w I see I 19 C tl- e DLUf LIIIW cry itonyr techniques usecl against defectors which arc involved in the I 18 t i ci Mr i-lax-n·ell · q I· 17 0 Dr Gottlieb ' r--- - tlle nur iher of people who we e a ·arc of 1 The only diffr re ncc is 1- Pt 1cr it w s idor c Decausc I am confused They are u lmos t synonyr ious in i 1 Can I ask you how you differentiate those my mind an mixed up J · to the sc of ARTICHOKE techniques as well as DLUEBIRD techniques r C'-- He have some inforr a tion la tcr on as II 1-1 -i -it Hhen you m0ntioncc the -71CIIOr r tec -inir u · r · i 'J tes 1 r nd t -i -i t wo substi1nccs 1 2 25 Dr Gottlieb IiI• c1nc1 I i c1m It 1wuhl incl i- ' c subs ancr s lir e nc utaJ rc illy not an e pcrt in this 1 -c 1 hut I · olc s - It 1i - 1--I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 · · - 1 And as 0 2 way I I I C be r iorc open and I 1 is to me 0 4 II i I 5 i 6 I 7 I in some way of some Dr I w1tn pnysTcians I 9 0 around him getting injections 10 -Ir ·lu - 'wcll Your reference to a mcdiccJ l setting this O'- would also in your mind be associ ited with the presence of a 11 - - J physician L 0 or Gottlich 13 Not necessorily hut just mcJ ybe cJ plny 0- 14 cJ cting rn d ccJ l setting 0 -Ir Maxwell 0 15 Ltl 16 I 17 I 15 i I' 19 u c I Dr Gottlieb 20 i Ii ii 21 I' 22 2 0 J nd this is not calling for expert t13stir1ony on your rnrt ' 0 such su JstcJ nces sue ' as nembutal for interrogation 0 - I arn not a pha1 maco-logist· or an exi ert j' 0 0 Here there any hozcJ rds involved in the use I' 1 I I 24 25 i il I recJ lly Jon 't thin ' I can ans· Jer thcJ t accurately I t in there H al1• 'ai' huzurcls 0n you use sonethin' li harbitu ites 'A s a lu• r rn There ar hazar s when you use as irin n11t r would r lthcr not answer thut in any cx 1ert way ' r aX cll lis oulcl only c i 11 for the hcst of your in o rncJ tion given your participation in later interrogations Dr Gottlieb I was never present at 0n I R IC OKE Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 2 described 4 by CIA 5 Dr drawing is what 6 - · 7 _8_ _j i a' tear 1 ·usually 9 where there would be 10 sort of i J'i1edical setting 11 a sleep rroducing material 12 technique narcohyEJnosis including a doctor in SOJ'i1e -·· l nc1 there wouln be an injection of 0- And I believe they called the J '--- 8c 0 l 0 15 1 16 thnt I ls never present it one of those Mr ' i - •ell 14 c_ am s yinq 'I 13 C nd I liow woulc the l gency describe the interro- gations it which you weie present involvin drugs or r ottlicl I don't know that they had i generic nar1c for it Mr luxwcll Di l you refGr to it at ill in ny srecific 0 0 0 way ' u 0 or r ottlic c I thinl we -muhi c ill it n r-1 inte -roC ati n 0 C or in -2 interroC ation I oon' t l 110••1 of a en ric ter '7 t 1 1t fin illy got to he used for it w Mr -1a -- 1ell ' 21 25 II Dr Gottlieb Mr Maxwell r - l I ta · e i t r e f c r s to Ls n i s that r nrt·C'ct Yes l nrl 1 -2 refers Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 -lM- r ' 'i 'i f 1- - t r· - · · · · -· · ' l 0 2- ·t - - 1 i - he ' ' l 0 a drug called 2 wron C 0 the cf ect of 5 the it or 6 '7 do it first aa you 8 N I either by 9 _J ci - ec that 10 self or by 11 periods of time UE r your- I ' into to you wittingly o J the circumstances of adnini-tration and secondly a lministcrt ·t 12 • 0 to you it a time w cn you were not a1 i rc thr1 t it was c oi 0 to 13 he administered and then t irdly when you administered it to 14 O· somconP a nc they were 1-1ittinc_ i oE its administri tion and in 11 _ 1 C when you a dr iinis tered it to sor 1eon who Has un· i it ting of it I 16 I ii 1 r- ·I administration 17 ii or Gottlich 18 1 I 0 0 divide it u in the fine slia e you ar talkin1 about 19 0 N I don't know th it I can satisfactorily u ci c r 20 ap roac 1 it in my o· ' -i • a y J ct -- -' r k the Cir 'i - t t 0 C i w ' - 1 ii 22 I drug like t is on rnyself before I set involvP d in the '1 V ' 1 _ L stration of it to c ny ocy c-lsc 2 -i a -n 1 1· 1 · in r1 n X 1 rimentc1l or a -- · ' n · ·' ind 0£ S• ttintJ 25 with it r cau -· ma ke about t 1i refer to 1 • own - ---------- ---------- ------T-OP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 N 0 I I N 2 I I I C 0 I 1 · Ii i ii 5 j 6 7 8 9 r L I I ·O 10 11 trying to think of the term for the o po itc of dilating t e J 12 L pupils of your eyes •· a 13 3 lo 14 0 15 l 1 16 II Mr Ralston or Gottlie Contracting pupil II Yes The last time I took it was a lo g time ago So I a0 I really am trying to recollect that - aving trouble r- contracting the pupils of the eyes 17 -Ir laxwell You referred to it in your opening statc c - t 18 0 0 0 ' I 19 · w - 0 ' ' '1'2 record here 2rj Ii LS' J yourself 'I 21 ' i 22 - 2 J it on I' ha' 'C V ci but it mig 1t 1 c approrriatc to or Gottli8h I • oulc c ucss i f you co - ' i nc the tir es it - as a i' 1inistE ' rcr1 tc ·1 1 ad inistcrcct it yself a 1d the ti s I I i 1 an 1ttc1 1 't to P t 0 ·1c- r1 1r in on t - e · 1 -Yi' 'c ir _ ar 1inis' - ·- tio 1 l 24 ·1 T ' wulr - 1 - from six to 12 timos 25 ·1 - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 ' i - t at is ' h 1 2 C 3 0 t 5 6 unwittingly I was quite far iiliar with the feelings and I 8 identificd_it _now I have LSD·-- - Mr --1axwell So if I a 1 correct you are saying that you z 9 -· 10 were not administered the dru' unwittingly prior to your havir 11 taking LSD taken it and known that you were C'-- J 12 Dr Gottlieb 13 Mr la ·ell • 0 That is correct nany times yo1 Do you have any notion of how 3 l· o S ic' r 1i ni s tercel un· 1 it ting 1 ' -' took it wittin ly before it 14 D ' i 'hree or four times 0 15 Dr Got tlie t n 16 I was going to c et to the 1eretran next 17 drug that had very little overtly erceivahle effects s I 18 rcmemhcr it 0 0 0 N II i 0 r iostly who t t 1e' -' cnll nalcf'tic 1-1h ic is again I will use the term a psychic c crgizcr h' ic 1 r al e you feel cncrc cti 2 sor ic thin' son t 1i11 2 22 and sort of with it I I II1 ·' - t c S which keer1s you awake C i It 19 u ci -lerctro n w is 1 2 H know thnt I can really say anymore lecture on t osc druc I 'lr l I am not givinCJ 1 nerli not ' u 1 l i f i eel to clo i t '1 · · 1 0 2½ 25 11 i r i knowledge of them is o t atcd r i wcll I a s re 11 it 1-1c1s t c purpose or usinq 1crctrnn 1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1· p roved for Rel ase _2_022102101' cooo·950 - -- 8 l 0 N 2 i C 0 4 5 6 7 -------- ---8 I ·•• resistance to questioning or to suggestion would he less 9 LJ7 I or Gottlieh 10 Ci' J e Ci tion by its0 lf except in cases where you only wanted 12 L •0 effect you were almost ci1ere l3 i s 1 remember· the work on i- eretran itself it turned out to be not a very attructive drug for intcrroa 11 '-I - I don't remember following that c1rticul ir line 6 question 0 15 of analysis of how it worked in interrogation t n 16 r--- - r Maxwell Dr Gottlieb 18 0 0 0 N t i c Well y ou coultl keep a irisoncr awake sa· ' by just talkin1 to him 19 ci I am not understanding then why you woulrl use it 17 sr 1 1ll nut I c 1n't say yes to your 1 I J You coul l also r ee im awake in a manner t 1 it mic ht mul e him worry ahout wh·_ 20 10 couldn't slc 1 0 'C 21 w ' V V - 0 by giving him a Mcretran I manner of stress that could be i prlicct covertly 22 23 2 It rni ht be tcrncf I guess a I I il iIt I 25 Docs tl -1t m i ke it cle i r Yes r R 11 s ton I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 as% ii ' cstion obout ' ' _ 1 2 · C 3 0 t 1 5 there 6 i about attemptinq 7 I '°· o Dr Gottlieb ··· I don t think I would feel uncomfortable 10 in doin J that 11 thini one of the thinCJS we concluded at some point after I think I would feel a little inadc uate I lot of 1 JOrl in this field as th it the 1 1Jrrc 13 clictablc and that the -c las no stc1ndc1r -d scC1uencc of P vcnts 14 at least J n a hchavio -al sense 0 15 hesitate without sor 1chow having r 1y r ic c or -y jog Jed by sor icthinq t n 16 we w -ote or by an inciclcnt w lerc there is such a desc iption 17 I would hesitate now to give you som-thinCJ which I consider 18 a et C L 4 J I I i 12 • I I J -- I · · _ z1i1 _ _ 9 little 1inrrr - 0 C C- i nc1 that l S l•1hy I sort of r---- 0 0 19 0 i i c0 20 1 1 ' I ci ' 21 I 22 'I 2 I w vi u - ' a ri C 25 I standing observed rcuction Mr l·luxwell of Pcrha s later on as · -1e CJO throuCJh the report 'lI the interroCJation that involve- tho 0 c 1er 1icul you m l ' able to help Dr Gottlieb Mr 1·10 -w0 ll Sure There is a mc- nor rnc um t i i t is cla tcrJ 2n -1c1rr 1' 1952 for the Deputy Dircc or for Centr l IntP lligcnc0 on ths subject of nrojcct - · ---------- ---- ·'· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 remember -- 0 N 2 C 3 _4 ·• 1 ' at I was wondering 0 € l1 possible I' t n Ii · 'I 6 that never 1 I 8 t-- I had I ff 5 ROD ii 5 v ent I - i 9 this name I think it was a proposal that was made an l nothing i 1 10 ever huppened C-· Mr l-laxw' 11 11 i J - e _ My understanding w is L tllr re was u 12 •I proposo l to be o testinr facility wit i n the CI for use in 1 '-' - con nee tion ·Ii th i RTICllO E 0 or Go ttl icb c 1 C 1 L' 16 l S t l mem -er c1n ' fucility ithin CI1 for e nr ir • tinq in th m lnner ti1a t ' describ·e it being carried out 'I in my prepared st i tcrnen' I did mention I Ii v e lid aclninis tcr the dru j to Cli er i loyces for w 1c1 t we cu 11 ' l N 0 c0 ' 2 w 22 I t ink- 'Oll will remenhcr tlt 1t 1 2C ·j 1 this memo implies because it t1ocsn' t ret1lly M 0 u V V - - ' • i period of time c1t · 1 1ic 1 defensive phurn i cology purposes so that they nul l be fumili r ' i thut ever ha i enin'-1· I c on' t 1-- 0 0 I do -- 't rei le ih cr 1 t- 8 th 1 t with it if they ever got it again I facility r · i nd that was done in a as I remember it one of t 1e traininn facilities c 2 But it certainly wusn't a special f i cility i SJX cial 25 IiII it 1s nothin0 it wa just usin J tile room 1 it certain peoµlc in i' 1 I li Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 on mombcrs they wez e sidr I iI or someone made known of the 7 -- -- i - 8 ---- of whc1 t was c 9 l Dr l 10 I 11 gain to c-- I z e C r -1c1 -- ell J I DOP how were people told thc1t they could participate 12 I L •0 or Gottlieb 13 It 1 14 I It wasn't that incl of a program They c -c approached -- and I forget how I __ Throughout the l gency or throughout the I 0 15 Lr 16 r--- I anybody the t wants LSD show up or present your case much more a program of somehow It vlclS I don't remember the mechanism -- of people who were JOing to serve in the Soviet 17 1 18 Union or in placed thil t woul l he e os ed t -iey were appro0c c I 1 19 I 20 2- I and told h 1ve tl is ca abili ty of cxposi n you to this cJ r •-1 and t' e reason we thinl you r iir ht be interested in it is because you mi ht someday be covertly attacked by it Mr Lenzncr 22 - -JC u 0 tuall y tests 23 C 24 trnining 25 mainly trc1ining You use l the wor l tests Those weren't They were c1ctuc1lly considered a part of t tybe they were evaluatinci reactions but it Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 WclS pproved fo_r Release 2022 02 01 - of roughly 0 « 2 3 0 statcr ent I s i 4 ta_ people number like that 8 I don't remer ber why 9 l n l 10 to pccul te on this I think Just as a little more bac ground to tr i s point we were c O'· 11 J '-- - •0 C- There was ome evidence in reports from Astern Euro e an 12 L 1 soviet Union that made several people in the Agency believe 13 l that this might well be a technique or an instruGcnt tl1at w 14 C' • being used by the Soviets and satellites 15 0 Mr axwell LJ Can you e anr' on that at all I don't now that I '-- can expand on s eci Dr Gottlieb report l Jut I rernernher particulnrly durin J that period th a very prominent American diplornc1 t carne out of tl 1t area a 0 0 0 ' u c i m ide sane very inc1 pr ronric1tc rernad s i l there·• a lot c speculation th it he -1as unc cr t is k inc of ottac cC C A ncl t ' were several cases where we read reports of soviets -- I w - there wa sonct ing here that 2rr was just ointinq out ' where some scvict either defectors or soviet A cn s thc1 t 24 25 -- I guess rnayhc tt intercepted hc1 ving hypoderrnic Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 that the clai i N 0 N 2 •I I as -- C I 0 f amcnahle to the will of or the 5 now anythinCJ its possible 8 ---- -- --------9 that 10 11 assu iption J was hein9 administered 12 L 0 -· -- _ - - · ·· - ·· • covertly by the Soviet Union ·· 13 0 -1 r 14 l C Ma X '- e 11 For the record I ould li e to read this arac ·rarh'of a mcr i orandum fror i the Chief of the edic l Sta r 15 0 l m dated Janury 25 1952 16 It is paragraph 0 of that memorandu enti tlcc1 Su -- v i ary and O inion 17 18 There i ample evirlcnce in the iports of inumcrable I I 0 0 0 N '-' ci inte -ro Jc tions that the Comr i unists arc utili in J drugs i ys - 19 1 duress 20 i ene 1ies 21 1 22 - 23 electric shock anc1 possibly h 'pnosis against tl iL -lith such evidence it is clif icult not to l c -- · becoiolin J rabid about our ap aren t l xi ty · c are force _ · II this mountinn eviJence t0 assume a more ayressive rolr i Ii cvelopr ent 24 1 251 o t' r sc tcd1niqu0s l ut - ust he c wtions t'l maintain strict inviol blc Ii Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 hands N 0 N memo 2 C 0 € 4 Dr 5 Hr 6 Dr medical staff officer 7 8 -- -·-c 9 N 10 c 11 J e L O ficc of Security in the l TITICI Oc E project 12 • 0 There is a mcmo -undum dated 22 1 urch 1952 for the 13 n i i tion 1nd Security Staff i nrl the - -· Chief of the lledical Staff 14 15 0 I 'Ln r-- i f i 0 0 0 N u ci C 16 Dr Gottlieb 17 Mr The first ar i graph indicates the Chief of nr Plans had uiscusse l with 19 anc at that time I guess he was still llr u l of ' Jr Got tl ie 20 i I ' C 21 I 22 Dulles - the Deputy Director nr Oullcs i o ore h · J S neve - icad o 011r_ I am sorry my memory of t at history is mixe l up C - r t- axwe 11 I 2 J -------- - it 18 0 e axwcll ·1c hc 1vP Or Gottlieb 24 II' 25 -- is Chief of Pl i ns He would be DOP at th i t time I would sa so yes talkinq about im This is is tan t as I read it e -- er irnc n t ' vere to be con ' uc lJ ' -- i -- - 1ell Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 e 1 0 N 2 C 0 3 t 5 1 S a 4l C 6 7 ' - · · · N N 8 improved provisionally or absolutely and really never went th 9 way 10 Mr 1-laX wcll v' I don't think -- I h 1v difficulty in linU 11 this to a proposal because we don't h v any paper thnt 12 I sho s J - 8 0 L 0 13 It l 1 1 t you r' ligh t be referring to Dr Gottlieb 15 l J 16 L _ Mr 1-1ax- 1ell 0 0 0 N 19 0 c· 20 0 C C There is one difference It is not worth pursuin0 · Dut I in th 1t just hoped that that raiqht I ii11 or Gottlieb I am sorry I You cant' hcl you there -121nt to tnoh· w -ii1t t le cx 1erir icnts h'ere that c is arrrovin'J I don't recall 2l I c rn' t help you on tbc1 t 22 confusing when you read pnragr ph 3 I 2 though trigger some recollection of what your ideas 18 u just 7SS • rnuld uctually run the experiments uncer the proposal 17 ilut the ti e chronolo0ically 14 0 0 l nct there is no referc cc here I It is really I don't knoh' · -1hc1t the mean th it TSS will actu -1lly run t -- e c ieriment ·ith O I I I i' lrovidinc i supervisicn 1c 'ice incl U 1lifiecl _ crsonn l 24 ' somcthinr to m0 ---------- ------------·- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 - ----- 1 N 0 « C 0 t 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 --------------- r- r 9 C l' I - _ £ ·S 7-' • ·J f iJf -- - - -· other druqs I do 1't remember oll ·of thr m Certainly we hod · t · - - · • 10 interrogation in the back of our minds but I nm ssuminq when 11 you say in tcrrogn tion you mc in exp er imcn ts 12 drury unner sonc -- tlia t ire tes tin CJ J -- e 0 L a 13 Mr cJ' 14 0 15 I Do you recall the clurgs aside from LSD th it arc the suhj ct o interest on the part of TSS Dr Gottlieb I lfi ' •la x -1ell My problem there is that I can give you a 16 list of sor 1e druss that come to mind 17 sure at whtt t period they cume in There was LSD 1-lere tran 18 and sor 1c thing cal led psi llocybi n There nut I can't say for l' - 0 0 0 N 19 ·1 u ci i l ' a raescnl ine ind there · as sor i8thi ig called tctrac '_lc ro-c innal ilnol 20 constituent of narijuana 21 but that was a rc rescntativc group 0 H S I c in' t the i cti• na • c ny others right no1• ' 3 w - 22 23 24 1r Maxwell p 1' I pcnt it 101 t· s T SS involved in c - ierim nts • it -i Sodiu amyt 1l Dr Gottlieh lo H 1et ' 'Sf · J s intcrestc in t 11 i · 25 lla t wi s c ref erre l to on you ay have rci d t i 1 call i t -- a 0 N 2 _ so - cthing which 3 0 4 5 6 That was 7 8 -- -- --- - - - - - Ir --- 9 'T I - --- ---·----- -·--- --· · · l J - 7 - - -- - - -_- - I -·---------- - Dr Gottlic J · Yes ' - 'Wc were interestcci in thc t point of _ _ _ · i 1 r 7 - - I like chloralhydrate 10 view 11 c1ction 12 a c ti v e so that the r c was only a s mu 11 ' u il n t i t y n c e cl c d an cl 13 be tasteless j n u chemical modification· t_hat would retain its hypnotic o- I I - - C meaning sleep pr6ducing ·not hypnosis und be very J ' a a d soluble in liguids and i t th 1t so -t of thir i 14 ' · 1r 0 15 - 0 • s O th C K p i 11 w i s a Cr 10 r a l h y c1 r i t e t y r 0 f drug 16 t --- nil l s t On Dr Gottlic J I will put it t is wu y Chloralhyd -ctte 17 seemed tone to be th best you could have done ith the state 18 of the art as it was 19 Mr tlaxwell ' I I '' t ' 0 0 0 N To the best of your nowledge 1 cre l pi 11 s u c i 20 0 or K tuhliets ever utilized operationally O' C 21 w 22 of my knowledge we dic1n' t lave uny t at were gooc enough 23 use 24 that chloralhydrate was suggested or sect 25 clear memory of that ' Dr Got tl ie J I am c6nfused on thut point o the best to u ' e - ' ow thu t doesn't meiln t ere coulcin' t 1 3 ve iccn times Approved for Release 2022 02 01 co 0095085 But I don't have sc icthi ng that 0 C 0 2 3 4 have any evidence 5 6 be agree nent 7 -s - -- ------ ·m 9 JC' I · F I 'l7 e Jo C 8 10 including Kand L tablets capable 11 or physiologicnl changes l ml this wus iss led o 22 July 19 0 12 and replaced DDP notice 220-1 dated 20 October 1952 13 suggested to me not necessarily that they ere ever used 14 operationally but that DDT at that time considered itsel t0 15 have such nnterial available J I i • Thnt 0 a - J o t tn 16 r Dr Gottlieb 17 0 0 0 18 19 c0 that there were many requ sts for this sort of thing ulw0v I I to be answered in the negative in the sense of trying to ' Ct Ii into a building and needing to overrower a guard clurinc t 20 I Vietnam -lar to cn 1ture 21 j u ci Thnt is best explainuble y ne hy sayins ' 3 courier th 1t c knc1 · ad ocum r t C c i i w vi of intere t and that sort of thing nc the c i r ability I 22 guess would be considered to be so ething about chloral y r l 23 or that state of the art •· V V 24 25 -Ir r- a - -well If a re ucst came for a pill o r to whom would it he referred anrl Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 · o your ta il ·s' 8 0 e 1 N 0 huve to he 2 n aprroval N 2 C 0 DDP in some • ay And I t So there I · · ·° · _· ·__ - _- - -' ·-· would be a nccessity_-for' it-to be issued 5 prior explo nation·t ·s- I 'ter the desk people 1-1ho were ho ndlin 6 the request from the field about what the capability was Jin l in r iost cnses that I can re r ember it 1 as not ucleciuatc 8 if that was acceptable then -- well And there woulcJ ic · r - 3 t - - · ---- ------ I didn't answer -- it ------ -- - - -- - -- ·--·----- ----- -------- - - - -- 10 And we would either would certainly b- - - - to TSO - - -· - · _ discuss it if we Ielt it·was_useful or not with the edical 11 Staff sane asrects of it ·· 9 c- - - - - - - --· J 12 L • • 0 r t J Y ' e 11 13 orerational unit Cr 14 ii Dr Gottli b 0 Lr 16 r-- 17 1e DDP to TSS or directly to or Gottlieh 0 0 0 u ci C C a C Well it rai9ht be discussed ith the pcop in TSO that were involved with ti1 1t fielci Jcfore' lan I I 1 19 1 Ii 2C Yes And then it would be rcEerre l throu' h the 15 C it Has decided that the o rea division was i ntercstcc i ·iitr css confers ' itl coun e l Off tr c record ciscussion -Ir u wc 11 - Ylould thi co e into lle -l u2 -ters Eron 2 n luck on tl rccor• 1 0 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas i nc t 1 r i g - to project l 0 ' 2 C 0 or € 1 3 a 4 C 5 6 7 dated Nay 19th and this is dated May 21st 8 r--- N - r 1axwcll ' 9 'i i· y u 1dcrstc1ndin J my guess is th t you wrote the May 19th memo in response to thn MAY 10 C' That is right I I 11 - 0 12 L 0 15th which is in the e l nr The nay l S th is 1 lone on 0 You didn't - thc1t my r 1er io is in response to this as much as the ot cr 13 % Gottli0h 01 2 r c1 you arc no t talkin' o hout 14 0 C 15 Ui 16 '- 0 0 0 ' u 0 20 - i X' cll ·lr things II H 19 11 'i'hut is right First I f3 a 4 signed Sid 2 2 25 ' r ·• t C t'O osol for an intcrin field testing o -o r - i C 22 ' n - I ''unt to brinCJ tr c correct 1 0 Duch is t' 1i to Je 1cr so that you can see - 1 1c -icr th 1t scr uc c ' 2 q ilS one i 17 ·1 18 the oth0r one or r ottlie ----·-------·----- ---- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas 'fJt Y'tf ' ' 1 2 1 3 0 N 0 4 5 6 recollcc i I I I 8 o· I · - -- --1' _ - - ' '' lft - - - ' '• 9 ' M Lenzner 10 May we'just take ·a second to read this a little more carefully C· 11 Ma vell I •r - ' Surely J C · L ' 0 l 12 I 13 iI · • 'la ' ·IC 11 D Got tl ieh c1 ii 15 C tn 16 l Off the record discussion t h2 t nack on the record I think my response to your question would the buck slip that I - rote that is datcc l J ay as best I can figuro out refers to hoth of those me os in r--- 17 0 0 0 N spite of the varinncc in dates I oul l ave sccD a draft let's say of the 21 May memo M Max- ell My hypothesis is t he memo slip cJ -itcJ nay 19th prcceclcd the buc 11cmo of 21 1 ay he w2s 1vriting in response to the DPC -w - ' - 0 D Got tlich la - c l 1 the - 1ost lo ic l r ottlii - I response to my buck slip nccaus of your hue slip ' ly o rt arJinq t 1at I ou l n' t dispute th i t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 i nJ that scens to W 'I 0 ' 2 indicates that 1 a 4 3 prior € c_ if you rec 4 5 6 7 - in any other way some of the earlier 8 ------- ---------- - g 0-- 10 - • ·- - ·- ·- · · · -- ' ·__ Mr Haxuell · l s cc1rly as 21 May 19527 11 Dr Gottlieb ·Yes • 12 I Witness confers with coun cl 13 N C· J ·7 C· • 0 J C 0 L Our concern here is thc1t r iy mcr 1ory is ot 14 c oor on this r oint 15 have hccn ot er work 16 nature of the contracts 17 trying to qct at pharmncological projects on anir 1als and so 18 things or it could h we been contrc1cts t 1at h ic1 to do -i' ' n 0 0 0 ' 19 u D c 20 0 C i w 21 22 e Ur Gottlich 22' l l l I humans It coulti have been L Sr 'n'Orl or it coul l n l I don't rcr 1cmher the s ccific Mayhe thc1 were even contracts I a just not sure Mr i'l wc 11 thut 1 ou rote -1hich I believe agree wit that -- refers to the proposal for interim fiel I tl stinci LL 24 25 it seems loqical a d you I -Ir r en7 ncr lie is r adin0 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 TSD document C 0 with t t and 1 3 a 4 C 5 it I questio 6 it is to be 7 uo as a 8 transpurent ° I 9 t ' 10 'There is a lot 11 c lone I a- I cJe ensive work that needs to be This study doesn't even begin to set it done J Signed Sid L e •a G Is t or Gottlieb Yes 0- Do you hav a question in connection with 0 I 1• r tn r that just wanted the rP corcl to reflect what tL - a ' -JCll tra srnittal slip showed There i s one othcr pi ecG in tbi'lt ir ic period that 1 woul 0 0 0 li c to refer you to 1t dated 6 l µril 1952 - hie' is ncmo l St on u c interim ri el i nf I wanted your rcs onsc t the statement 1n t es i n0mo jar factor co tri uti n to w ' u e the lack o as ell as our i nabi li ty to conE it encc i n resent tcchni c1n0 s been the di fi culty in obtaini nq co c- - 0 both Ear the tcc1 ms and t' l ' pproved for Rel_ease 2022 02 01 C0009508 N 0 N C 0 would of tir ie to sc1y in obta ining 6 and for the 7 8 you much · · ''i ·- 9 ·r -tI just n o t That is 10 0 Mr II ' C-· 11 research for TSS to find competent mcdic il surport J 12 Dr Gottlieb 13 about research effort 14 it 3nd as I tried to say in my opening statement this thin 0 15 kind of mounted shlowly Ln 16 I because this w s a relatively new drug an l a rclntivcly new - e o One of the confusions is if you ire t 11' · in 0 l 0 c u 0 field 18 I I don't rcmer ihcr finc inc people who 1 'el ·e willinq and a le to 19 I 11 II I c· 2C 'j i 2 - if 2 3 - C I war on t 1is to the 2xtent they h·ere physicians on the researc 1 · 1 s1c e inc 1 1 t 1u t 1 as n side Thot doesn't get tir doctors to e r 10 mhcrs of the i l1TICIIOJ E they wanted 1 t a 11 il s to First teo 171S one in - a n c t on in the Far Ec1st ·1 0· - I I rcr 1e nher this mostly as referrin J to that ctifficulty I I 2 ' j _ ___ ______ __ -- - - 2 t J 1 in finding mc1ny people that had any cx ertise in it -- _ _ i 0 i nd altho l' h there was trouble i 0 ' they talk c1bout here as I remcr iber 17 n 0 0 ilS uon't rc icmhcr t 1c qettin of Ualifi d rieo le and doctors 11 i- specia ere a pro lc 1 thc1t I c n rer iember from this loni lly ---------- · 1 C 0 2 you have any 3 being used in the ficlL t 5 6 7 8 N 9 t -' 10 aims of our research program was to get technique that 1 1as 11 r iore covert than ·the ·l'l n TICl OKE' techni Jue 12 h ve talked about it sure 0-· • · ' ' - · So I said we must J '- • e 0 L' And the co· er-t v ss focuses on the f 1ct tlut C · c 14 I the ICliO E te 1 - i 15 I' the in ividuals to be in a situation where they knew or rcr- I ceived tho t they were receiving nedication of some forro i 'u L ' · 16 · 17 I I Dr Gottlieb I 18 I 0 0 0 u c 19 2• C An the attera t w s Mr a -- 1c 11 th i t you were in li t h t tl - ' ' ·I C - C r 0 C C _ Dr Gottlieb ii 2 ii - Thnt i wh t r ferr-crl to 1n the intcrron tion to conc 1ct t e - 1 · ithout th0 suhject no1 ir - 1 1 C i j accordinCJ to our recollection rcciuircd 2 · 2 i I r i V i 11 cl 71 t · ·as - - th c 1 r il idcu or to Ct is close to that kincl of ca a ilit· · 1s we could Off t - c r• corc ctis c1 i0 -1 1· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 ' 0 ' 2 f3 a 4 e _ 3 4 5 6 7 tr i 8 tially 9 which went back and forth within the_Agency between the Office d ft fom the-·· r' lt·- f a series of me -iorandur 1s -·_ i t5 'j -r t ·· h 10 of Scientific Intelligence' and the DDP in order to determine L 11 the allocation of_ res onsibilities urn1er Project i 1TICIIO C IC' ti --iI e 'c l · · · · · t· r1 - _ · - · 1 S _ J t t f_ · J · I f - _ · - - - · -· - F J 0 ' 12 AnJ I wanted to call your attention first 13 and the notation there that operations 14 control·of the Chief of Mission -- 1 r l to I I ' lt e u1 dcr ' - 'OU l ICi l 0 t t n r--- 15 Dr Gottlieh 16 1 r- ·1c1 xwell 17 Right Okay You hc1d di ff erentia tee Project 1 RTICW r fror 1 another project for -1hich we 10 vc not assirp ec1 the n 1 in regc1rd to SD or Merctran testinq 0 0 0 Dr Gottlieb Yes u ci 20 c· t 1 ' -1 - • '1 1 -- - c l l C C C - 21 w vi - I eventually of the Chief of issior in the cot r try i 22 2 t' I 11 Tit ilO f tcstin•J 1-mul be Jone unr' f r the cor trol 11 I E 2o you hav ony 1 · hi C rccoll ction o ether th t·e ' S i 2 1 251 ir iiliir control y tl c Chie o - ission in ir tcrro _1ations in the rog -0 r invol 1inr1 i'- o - --------- - I--·· -------------------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 - ' i ' J - - - ---------------- ------- --··- - C 0 2 3 4 5 6 7 s· wOuTcI--apply-Eo_iiny_ operaffons includi J the ones usin J - --t • - • - · d - -_ c • 9 P-1 or l -2 not that· this memo says that but you asKed me · · - -- 10 how did it worK or was the other different 11 no And I would say C-· 12 Ir 'laxwcll for instance the CI Medical Staff or the Counter Intelli cncci I I' Staff be_ er 1powercd to utilize l RTIC fO r- techni Jucs o - to - 14 I 0 I - - 15 your Y-nowlcdqc P--'l or A-2 technif UCS without the a iprovcJl of 16 the Chief CIA Office in the geographical area ·thc senior Cll 17 officer 18 ' i s I 13 w So n t no rioi n t would TSS or other hod i Dr Gottlieb I would say without coordination of that 19 officer 2G the 01 Jcration i l controllers of llcc1dr u 1 t rs not 7 ' iS rr i0ht 21 ' stimuL 1te such 1n operation 22 l m I nakinq 2 they were always unrlcr operational control 24 25 i I I I c 1n envision situations where Headquarters me ininc my point clear nut he • oulc1 h ve to e involved Uhat I am trying to say is that The CI Mission Chief r 1ay not h we Jct' n t e 7rinci i l iqt rc in it hut_ lC a 1 ' a y s aw i r c o i t a n i f 1 ci ---- I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 lo ts of • v 1S 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 c-- 11 Office of Medical Services where this file was Daintnined or 12 the echnicol Services J ' - 0 c- L • 0 0 C l 13 L'1 I Dr Gottlieh a 7 not sure bec 1usc there w i s a tec' 1 ic l 14 yrou in security 15 to c now a little confusing 16 overall responsibility goes from intelligence to security 17 possibly that TSS will do whiltever research and testing is 18 needed too l nd this could mec1n thot I fine t sl It seems to be s i ying that a r ·- l 0 0 l 0 ' Li ci I cC 19 20 Dut it doesn't say that to me u -i quivocally here Mr Lenzner The words technic J 1 tasks are typed in i -i a diffe -cnt tyre fo ce th n th' rest of the r l 'rnoran um c 1' - They' sanitized it 5 3 21 -1r Maxwell 'I' -iot is right w ' 22 ·lr Lcnzner So it is a paraphrase of other l i nguage · -' ic' ' 23 may or may not reflect other languoge 24 other language was lo __2_5__ _______ ·lr - axwe 11 Do 1 ou know who t It _w_ s the Technica l __ Serv ices ___ _ t I wh11t I was I • C 0 € 2 3 about the 4 5 6 7 - ------- 8 0 9 l t' I 10 authority for ATITICl O E research_ which was delegated to TSS - -- ·_ -- - and the other research ·that ·was being performed in similar 11 areas adjoining areas related areas c- I l -I - J L • a 2 2 I am hearing you say -- nnd I aD checkin Dr Gottlieb 13 this with you bec i usc I want to be responsive to your questic I 14 did all the researc -i reL1ting to cru Js in this period don0 0 15 in TSS sort of huve sor v reli 1tionshi in lfl 16 this project 0 J 0 r-- 17 0 0 0 ' il control sense to is thut it -1r -laxwell T 1e question would be r iore s ecifically '- i 18 t 1c reseurch thnt wus being c1one in related areas with druc s 19 in TSS t i t w i s not related to TITICliOi E was not done unt cr 20 tht aus ices of l 7IC Ol E as not r ndc nown to eoplc - lio 21 cor slrised the Ml TIC OKi cor l ' li ttee or t - e group of people who 22 were involved in r ial inCJ decisions aoout R' i 'ICI Ol E u ci c0 Dr Gottlieb 24 25 I c1id 't 1ear t e r ucs tion I was ' ·ruit nr for another phrase Mc lil WC 11 l·las there ---- ----····-- · - - - - - - · - - - - - - - - - - - TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 I pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 • • 0 2 5 § - 3 f • 6 9 - _ · ·_ - •- t Eii 1 ii 10 reported to this g oup · I ··car nly report from that that 11 the definition of related work was pretty broad 12 think of work that we were particular y wa l li nq of from t'1i 13 group at this point 14 Mr Maxwell J C 'a di '''recoil ection Dr Veehover it comes back that we do so es h· n psychogonic material and we co ' · •• • chap whom I have· • for even - 'r - - 4 8 to say that • - • • 5 M of the • 4 to- And I can't L 0 a ' 3 c- Then it would be your recollection that an11 C 15 related areas of inquiry supervised by TSS would be rc orte l LJ 16 hacl to the ARTICl OKF Committee given their interest in thut 17 general drea t'- 18 0 0 19 ' u C s 3 a i - ' The fir t sentence i'1 ' nraqra h 2 s i· s ''It was agreed by those present trwt t e overall rcn o 1sihilit· ' 11 of Project ARTICHOKE shoulrl h transferred from Security -- 1 t • i'1r 0r zncr 1 22 i An l I get thRt from reading those minutes of t 11e ARTICl Ol E nectinq 2' Q - Yes c· - i' i J ci - Dr Gottlieb l 0 23 iI 24 I1 0 Mr laxwell It would be from t ie Office of Scientific Int llig0 1ce to I SO with ull res onsihility for res- arc · I 25 - - being allocated to the Techni al cr iccs Staff -- - -' l - ---- ------------ ---- - T - - -- T 1 _ •' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 ---- - --- - - - --- I - 1 0 N 2 • •0C 3 f I 4 of t l 5 1·• ' _ tf r· · I are 6 8 ' into that series Dr CO' Mr M' and 0' C - Dr Gottlieb · was in OSI hP- was representing J 12 • OSI I was Director of OSI I believe folowinq Dr Chadwell 0 IC 13 Mr Maxwell 14 Off the record discussion 15 Mr Maxwell 16 The third paragraph of the memorandum indicates that Dr 17 Mackley was going to set up an office in New York and engage 1e in basic research proc rrams in support of ARTICHOKE Ci 0 w Off the record Back on the record Given tl L' 0 0 19 0 N fact that TSS had the basic research responsi Jili ty under J ci c £ f ' - 20 I 1 3 a 4 i l l RTIC iOi uncl qiven t 1c fact that t is comes close in tir i t the period when the IKULTR l program was authorized do you 2 II recall the relationship between 23 i 'I wor1- bci n - conductec1 in 'l'SS 24 I i 'I 25 Dr Gottlieb work and the I can only answ r that in a kind of a rar bling wc1y in a til e scale 1 nc1 you will see what I mean Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 · - ·--· _ ·• I _J I 1 3 a f c And he 9 the relationship 10 I thin - 11 doing this stuff with hirn - -_ - -- '- • · -- - - _-- _ - 4j·' ' - J - 12 lad you run across th i t in the records 7 13 Mr 1-la- -c ·ell 14 oil 0 15 Dr j Ln 16 C L 4 - · 0 • J 0 l l I r 1 3 a 4 l c t ' Off t '1e record the recorrt discussion Got tlieg I don't r c r n c r i b e r and t l c thing ever ma terializing 17 May I ask whether your records show something else 18 1r - axwell 'i'he record in regard to later _ _ q7rcrioi E 0 0 0 19 research are very s impy 20 o erations 1 1ic 1 continue on throu -_ -i 1'1' '1 21 at t -iat tir 11 ' 22 research arcus in the A Jency at t at tim0 was that 1 7ICI · ' 23 rcsi ' rch 2¼ CX£ D r c in J snl· stantially Al thou J i there are some RTICI '-- C c· they trail aw 1 - ' C ly um erst rnding of v1 at -1 1s goinq on i 1 th - - ' ·-- --- 25 '· s cJcclining rapidly anJ t11c '·lKULT l r scurch w 1 s or Gottlieb th Of course ---- TOP • l Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 So 1 0 2 I 3 0 l nd 4 5 - • 6 tho effect of the 7 done I --- cc-f1 1P o-ti t's '°·-r-- r - -- -- r o-c o r a-s -- b u t - a - - ·· · ·- - 7· - ' - 1 4 ·• · 9 10 little bit more firsthand information • · · ·- Yt - j -- 4 f j- -i _- · · On the second page-of _that·same momo it indicate5 that _ 11 L •0 12 by the O erational or area offices to I SO for coordination 13 · i-J t ft - · 0 14 0 15 discouraged or prohibited · -10 ' use of ARTICHOKE materillls and approvlll of such use · 'It is the basic policy that use of · _ - - b - t• · - _ -_ A RTICHO E materials by non-professional cllse officers will be •- e u - t · f r 'the · - r -_ _- · ··- · J J · a -'--s• '- - _ t$ i •_ · ' --· ·- OTS will refer all It i ' lf · 1 16 ' •_1· 17 indicated that you were not involved in admini5tration of 18 ARTICHOKE materials do you reclll 1 -requests coming to TSS 19 or coming to your office in TSS or TSS in general for the use 20 of l RTIC OKE m terials and the methods of responding to such 21 requests 0 0 0 ' In your experience with ARTICHOKE although you already u ci C 0 ' 22 e - 0 Dr Gottlieb I don't remember any requests like that But my remcrnbr nce would be stimulated by these memos that we cert inly would have furned them over -- we didn't consider we hnd lln ARTICHOKE capability in the manner that I defined Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - - - Dr Gottlieb ·That is a·good question because it might 9 be that in briefings that TSS at that time gave -- but · I I - - · - - ·-_ _ c _ - ·- - - - - --------- - 8 I··don't 10 rerneraber that specifically the only thine I can think o was 11 that we would have mentioned it in terms ot technical ca a- 12 bility available for operations C' I J - - L • 0 C l 0 0 13 Mr Maxwell Perhaps you would play that out a little bit I 14 When an oificer was beings tationcd abroc d would he in fact I 15 come through a reeducc tion process a retraining process 16 whereby ho would be told by Medical Staff TSS or the like 17 what capabilities there did exist 0 I L' r t i 0 0 0 N 18 Dr Gottlieb 19 process coming in or being open in the last five or six u ci c0 20 0- C w - ------ ---- 21 I· II 22 II 23 - ' ' 2'1 25 --- I I years I was in the CI Defore that was a much more informal I' C I remember such a procoss an effective I kind of thing It could have or couldn't have happened dependinq upon how alert and thorough the desk was at which it was being prepared in lleadquarters i Certainly some people 1' came over to us to finct out what can you fellows do for us I overseas how can you help us how - - ·1 Appr ved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 you support our C 0 € 2 3 • • • • • •• • · -✓ · -• t- -- ' --· · Jtt 5 • -' J 6 7 8 N 9 i-I c • • • -·• _ --- - -·· •• - ·and in that wlly get expos-ed-·to the-cap-abilities we had or I · 4 ·· ·t - interest we had di cussed with them and in that way ARTICl OKE 10 perhaps was getting around 11 of case officers being prepared for overseas work and routinely 12 and pretty surely coming through TSS didn't become an effective c - •• • I J And my an wor wns that proce s i L 0 7_ - l system until much later At this period the word got around 14 in various ways C 15 fairly regular trips overseas partly for tho purpose when L - 16 I had su ervisory responsibilities in TSO of just checking 17 on how the support of our overseas units was going and partly 18 to brief stations on capabilities --1-lhere·appropriate those 19 things would come up 20 all of the case officers in a station somewhere 5 21 would ask me what can you fellow do in thi area ' w J vi 22 I Ci A little later not now I would go on ' I l ' J l 0 0 0 N u ci c· 0 Sometimes I held a little seminar with And they C j - i Mr Haxwell In regard to general training within the 23 Agency for those people who would become ca e officers who 2- would move into DDP not so much a reeducation process for 25 those people who had been overseas but for those people who Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 - · 4_ ·• 1962 9 t I cq-- c-I J I L C • 0 with those not 5enior case officers but case officers in 13 I training Ii II I 0 15 Ln 16 ii -- 17 I No I ant to m ke a reservation there ii ' M 19 20 0 C 21 w VI - VI iI' engaged in by TSD 1 units i '1 In regard to tho activities that were in providing infomation to the operational in the meetings that took place in part I think at first under your supervision and later on with an interchange of DTP people and TSD people -- 2 25 f----- ---- ----·--- _' Mr Maxwell i I 23 ing course during this period i 22 l1 Dut I don't think they were specifically and thoroughly briefed in-this area in any train- 12 c' represented and they were briefed on a research program and questions could have come up Li ci It could be that we had some kind of seminar in which research interests were I ' sc_ ' - 12 14 0 0 0 I D 4 be relatively little of this area would have been·brought U 11 I l bility for operational·support - ll d my answer would have to 10 I _ ' And tha t ·is ·tho ·first time ·that I had direct· responsi- Dr Gottlieb TSD was in the DD 1r---Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 You are talking about when I was who -would pass that 9 - ' - 1 ·- -- I I ' lo and I think all the time Dr 10 - _ _ § · 11 relevance of its research and development program And there J 12 I was an attempt l l 3de to have the people who came to Deechtree 0 a l 13 I -- they were at TSO request appointed by the DDP himself And l0 14 there wa i a roal5on for·that i ·o 15 senior divisional people who could speak for their area in a lJ1 16 general way 17 got rotated there were never people there because they were 18 going overseas We wanted them to be responsible And as I remember it except as people naturally t'- M 0 a a N 19 Hr Maxwell But the e ectation would be that those u c i C 0 - ' 0 2c 1 senior people would be able to pass on their knowledge of the 21 capabilities of TSO to people more junior than themselves 1· 22 or Gottlieb I think we are getting off on a tangent here 23 And I will tell you why Your interest is in how the informa- 24 tion about those capabilities was passed on 25 the Beechtree seminars had Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 The purposo of with that They wero ·t I - § - 1 0 ' Ii l € i 2 C 0 of senior operational officials _ in- the DDP so·that we could get a representative reaction· that·was-vory hard to got given 5 'I And it had nothing I 6 operationally I l 7 I I 8 r n · Mr Maxwell I would have thougJ-it that there would have 9 I vI 10 I 11 · - c- -r -' •' ' fif f - t r -'i -- • · been at least one sub-benefit which we envisioned ct _ I 0 Dr Gottlieb J far from the focus 12 L •0 Of course it is a sub-benefit But it is The focus was this is what we propose to do next year with so much money How responsive is it to your 13 needs a research progr m It only had to do with a research 14 0 prognl m program 15 0 L ' I think you might be equating the research progra 17 with the P-1 A-2 area 16 t- But of course that was only a small part of it 17 I might add that we found that an ext ernely useful 18 instrun ent Mr Maxwe 11 In thctt same memo on page 3 there is an indication that the ARTICHOKE techniques were being used b ' a medical officer stationed were the similar - - ' i TIC IOKE in llll9- I ta e it that those techniques as have been referred to 2 · before which woulc1 probably be sodium pentathol i lnd desoxyn pen ta tho 1 r- 25 Desoxyn operated as essentially a stimulant I y--------- --- · - ---- 11 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C0 095085 1 • 2 r C 3 0 € • • • 4 I 5 6 1 3 a 4 C-- -· · • were used • • • • in fact at one·time sirnultane6asly Which conclude 10 by saying that the case proved that the detailed interrogation 11 can be carried out in a harmless fashion with a com ound use 12 of sodium pentathol and de5oxyn - - Ci'· • of June 4 1952 of an interrogation where both those substance 9 • II • • c • • • • • • • I 8 -0 •• • •• I now when • • J ' L •D C• 11 l 7 E or ii J Gottleib Without any recollcc lon on the p ut of the I c· 14 Cr 15 I L- 16 I 11 r Mr Maxwe 11 I i 17 principal l RTICHOKE technique in combination with hypnosis Dr Gottlieb I I Well in answer to your gues tion my Dut it is derived 18 I' I understanding would be just what you 5aid 19 ·• I mostly from reading this material I medical officer stationed i was using anyt in1 else • n 0 0 0 ' u ci 1- a 4 2· C C t 2 1 ' I I don't know that the l nd I think that was your question I J _ 2 -·----- - I' - - 2 j Ii q ii q i Mr Maxwe 11 It wa a question in regard to that memoran l it notes that there would be budgeting for two r 1ore ARTICIIO -a teams nct I was wondering if you knew whether in fact there has been now An TICHOKF teams I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 to the ones that apparentl 1 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 2 • C is that 3 0 f 1 S a 4 4 v in fact that in a 5 was •-· ·· two teams S they 6 ·'· dated 4 November 7 v l I O· might be of 1950 to · --- _ interest to Morse'0Allen ·• and· noting htat the inclosed was --------·-- -- - ---------- 'I -------- 9 gotten from· i i i derstanding that the 10 inclosure was the __following packet -- it ia not the full 11 memorandum -- from - · - · · r- -4 £t J Yv r H dated September 4 1952 on J 1 3 a M •0 the subject of information from Europe related to the ego- C 13 C depressants Do you recall this memorandum from i c1l Dr Gottl eb 14 0 I don't recall it glanced through it And I certainly wrote the covering memo 16 I am sure if I got something like this I can see in these 17 days I would send it to the Security people Mr Maxwell 18 0 0 0 I have 15' 1 Lt I have read it · · - __ _ ' • 7· · ' The memorandum is interesting for a number 19 of reasons one of which is the question it raises about the 20 vulnerability of individuals or installations to chemical 5 21 warfdre or biological warfare and its use of LSD in that iJ 22 There is also a paragraph -- before I go on when information 23 such as this came to your attention and to the attention of 24 TSS was this information also shared with individuals at SOD 25 and in the military in general c i ci c0 0' C i vi - _j ii - - - - - · - --------- ' - - - - _- -- - ---'' p - ----- - · '- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 - ·· · · S0f1 • - - - - CO 9 this z - I llr 1 sure it hlld - - t · · x- · -- - - - - · • · been rllised before ·in'other ·in tllnces -- 10 C-· 11 Dr Gottlieb ·· Clln I stop just a minute because we might J -c --- e C 12 I be llble to do something that would be helpful here a C 13 II t- itness confers with counsel l½ Dr Gottlieb I ort of broke you off in mid-question G 15 What I suggest I do i l J i 16 make 17 anything I want but a opening thllt would tie into 18 which we are talking about 19 ability studies ever incc I watched one of the public 20 sessions on TV specifically the one where Colby testified on a 21 the toxins and where elms and Kararnessines did I have a l J 22 thing about what I consider to be very mislellding things that 23 went on there 21 they have to do with vulnerability studies is why they come u 25 here and they have to do with ll I have been looking for an opening to comment -- I don't mean an opening where I can slly l'-- 0 0 0 ' ll subject And· ince you brought up vulner- c i 0 c 0 ' C i vi VI fl nd I would like to comment on them Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 Now ity studies done by 1 l - · B l l S Y - · · soo rWoold you 'agree' that thJs-fs·a 'good a place to put tha 2 in a - tr · - · t tttJttU· ' ·---- ' · i'' t '· · 4 •• - ¢ ·•··· • i fi ·-· r £ - · 6 particularly --interested· in' these vulnera bili ty studies that y _ y M- - 4 Ji-- l i ' or Tecoived by- TSD fron1 SOD and· include l in a filo labeled 7 MKNAOMI Aro you· following· ·mo '_ · · ···i· Ji k-1 ¥ - · --'_ · - - ------------ •1 · -· · -- - - - _v'-- _ · 4 -r Mr Maxwell- - · Yes · • f r- ·· 8 9 T • · Dr Gottliob • '·'I' thln Cft·wa '·senator Hart that va • 5 c- ·· l ' - ·· fZ' i• As ·gooa ·a ·plac - - 3 - • · · Dr Gottlieb · ·· ·_ • nd there was u1 a point de at the 10 hearings anu I can't remember whether this was an explicit 11 point but it surely was a strongly inferred point that the 12 CIA had somcthin nd the inference wa noroething inistcr 13 to do with the o vulnerability Gtudics 14 'Want to make i 5 that in fact CIA i1dd n0thing to do with cithe 15 of the vulnerability studies I mentioned CIA was simply a lG recipient as I sure many other Government groups were of C' J - e G- L • 0 nd tho co nt I J 0 0 tn t'--- 1 1 I 0 0 0 a report of SOD l Ork done not in re pon e to any CIA require 16 ment that I kno t of that they were working again t but done 19 in their own research program and quite properly I think t u c i c0 C i i study the vulncrabili ty of this country to covert BH attacks I 21 I vi 22 23 - 20 I I i And I ould liko to straighten that out because I think a grave dis ervice Yos don in many way but l ltOstly it was jus a distortion of Jhat ·really happened that although CIA was t I recipient of a report describing those studie CIA had nothi it have nnythi Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 it have of or 4 was that 5 stand 6 tho water 7 point of 8 system was tested or -the subway · ·And I don't think that is 9 an accurate deduction ·to··be ·drawn · because in the caso of the 10 building as I remember reading·the report 11 that was put into the water to see how ·it dU u ed And in 12 the case of the subway syst l as I rememher it 13 perfectly nomal o ganism·that is nround evcry - here and it 14 doesn't harr 1 a ybody 0 15 don't knew ·if I mctde that point clearly l 16 impression made on people's mine that 17 sinister to do with these studies o LJr it was just a dye C· J --·- C· L •a 0 it was a Or maybe it wa even a tracer But I Ir now there was an one CIA had something And two that the Btudies were somehowharmful to the structures or systems that were 18 I• II 0 0 0 u 0 c 0 'C 20 1 ·I 19 21 involved in them _hlr Maxwc 11 I ii for the sake of point fa a moment just continuing along this you said that CIA had nothing to do with generating requirements for those studies Would it he fair 22 - 23 1 I - 0 to say that CIA had nothing to do with the ideas -- with the _2tit 2t possible proposal of such studies by SOD rather than limiting '1 to tho requirement _ _ _ _ _ _ _ --11 _____________________ _ tatemen t C 0 _ 2 activitie in 3 it except to be 4 5 6 one 7 discu Ssed with · ·- -- - · 9 ' t _m· _ - I o I I c 10 gency · ·I want ·to ·mako ·sure ·that·thc ·point·is mado that while J L 4 0 Ct l I 13 mll y not ·hl'lve ·generated ·the ·requirement ·in the formal sense CIA I of the way the ·requirement would ·be generll ted within the Servici 11 W- 14 C 15 II it is indeed your point that CIJ was ·involved in tho kind of discussions that would precede such proposals on the part of t SOD For in tancc ·if ·in fact you received a report like this i or another report' that mid ·it would he possible to cont -i minate' an entire building or a batt eship or an installation of n 0 0 0 1- - ci c 2C 0 ' i l J vi i i C some sort by adding ·a chemical to the water system that it u 21 i would appear it would be natural to bring up that kind o discussion to SDO because of its interest in both offensive and ii 22 i d defensive chemical and biological warfare 2 stance it would appear that the CIA information and concern V But in that circum- V - vi IL 2¼ 25 i while not ·part of a requirement process also maybe part of SOD framing the vulnerahility study without any sinister Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 2 what you mean And m 3 4 - - j· s l_ -_ -· - _ - 5 mis don· to· worry· about· the vulnerability of· the· USA to covert 6 BW attack· ·-'·I·consider··that·orle ·of·t heir mt1in·reasons for bci · _ _· - ···· • l _ _ _- J - 1 • _ · _· -- · - - - __ _ - ·- - ·- _ _ • o - -i ¢ _j - -· Tho e vulnert1b ility s·tudie· · -wero take ·entirely as far o s I ·- · ·- · - _ · ' t i i t _ - - - _ -- · 7 8 --------------· ________ •__•_• •- • J- • _ - t - I '• l• _ • ___ _ a-n concerned· in ·__the· co 1 te x t' · o t ha t - non-CI related requ i re ne 0 · - ri - im $ J J- - _ 9 Now the·5tudy·having bee ·plinned·and·approved o nd finally - ·- - - - r I _' t ' - · 10 executed ·I ·have ·no·problem·in·seeing· someone in SOD saying 11 you fellows ·might be interested in thin c-- 7hat is my point J SC- 12 Mr Maxwell Hy ·point was that it is neither aini tcr 4 a k 13 necessarily or unlikely that part of the formative procc s of 14 vulnerability tudies was consultation between CIA and SOD J C 0 15 L l 16 I don't know that it did in·this case 17 my mind not the major precipitating cause for this thing 113 happening Dr Gottlieb My answer is that that could have happened It certainly was in r That is my point · M 0 0 0 ' Mr --1 axwell 19 The other point that I think should be made u ci c 20 and should be reflected in the record is that one of the 21 concerns on the part of the Committee was the fact that SOD 22 ' apparently conducted vulnerability studies without the approv 0 ' C 3 w - ' u _ 2½ 11 1 or knowledge of those either public or privo te officials I responsible for either the civil defense the FDA adMinistrat who administer the subway system in New York Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 bo made i3 thllt the 2 what ha3 been perceived 0 N g 3 t _ __ · · l - J i · · · ·· 4 ta tion and or death f Given· that the point that an agent is 5 regarded as safe ana·normal has to be een in the context of _ ·__ ·- i - - --- ·@- t t i- - r - -t - ·· what we later have discovered·about the results 6 ·· - · t- -f½J t -- · _ · _• - · -·· - T- -- - - - -·· - 7 or Gottlieb I run getting off tho main point I want to ------ make t'7 9 ur· 1 3 a 4ho C'C 11 - - --- I think the CIA was drawn into this thing by associati and not by direct participation or anything liKe that And · that is what bothcred· me • • - - - • · Mr Maxwell also includ The mcmorandwn from - • 12 a paragraph which I would like to read page 9 • 13 is up at the righthand top 14 of th t • a I haven't rcprinte l all the page f ··c G 15 D l1 The numberin It indicll tes The second re l son to doubt - - - - came out of the question I rllised as to whether any ·1 3 a 4 c_ r----- 16 accidents had arisen from the use of P D 25 l e said in ave 17 positive way none 18 cal 1 ed overly positive · for l 1 t r on ir the evening I was As it turned out this ans er could be discussing the m 1tter with where I h 1d gone at - in5istence • • when asked this srune question replied · yes and added spontaneously there is a case - knows about I a woman and physician who had been 2 subject to depression to some extent took LP 25 in an experi- 25 ment an l became severely and steadily depressed and committct Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 1 i 'I not 2 •c allowed tho 3 0 t§ a 4 who are c 5 6 · · · _ · ¼ t 'ii _ · ·• _ - • • 7 -- F·tn ---- - ------ -- - - · - _ ff j_t-- 7 • t · 8 no recollection of either the·report or that particular 9 section in it 10 I Dr Gottlieb I didn't remember thi 'I report at all - - -I - ·had Mr Maxwell ' J_ -_ f • · '- -· Do you recall learning about similar events c-- I 11 prior to· 1953 or similar experiences J I -· l C • • 0 It 3 I 0 12 Dr Gottlieb You meon suicides that followed 13 don't recollect that 14 Witne5s confers with counsel 15 Mr Maxwell 16 Dr Gottlieb 17 Mr Maxwell llo I I I C Did you want to add anything to your answer I I j tn I No • t Do you recall thP research that had been dona I i 1 M 0 0 0 N 18 up to that time by TSS or any other agency in CI or by other 19 Governmental agencies or aca lemitions that were known to you l u a c' 20 0- I 5 21 1 w vi 22 0 about the effects of LSD C i ' e Dr Gottlieb I 23 refreshed i I And if we are going to go into that I would want to have my memory I 24 I certainly don't recall that now Mr Maxwell __ llt---i Do you recall the kind of research that was _ 9'--o_i_n-'-g_ ______o_n_a_t__t_h_a_t_t_i_m_e_i_n__r_e_ g_a_r_d___________ -- --- -- _____ _ other field l 7d 3 now I mean 4 any 5 or reading re or - ·-· _ tS a 4 C- reading that 8 or 9 nm sure nowr n · That i 5 not my respo - se rn· L ' _ _ _ · ·• But I don't remember them now 10 O· Mr Lenzner 11 L •0 13 l c Mr Ralston Mr Lenzner 15 lJ 16 not special from This report by the way that Elliot ha asked about is dated 1952 the report b y f -3fe i 4 17 Any report I ll 1 3 a 4 BJ C r-- special report H C G Ci 12 I e Did you ask him whether he had seen a I I J - - Mr Maxwell Do you recall independently the kinds o I C research that TSS had begun to·- commiss·-ion in this area at t 18 n 0 0 0 time 19 N u ci · 20 or Gottlieb j C i recalling who was doing research that early for us 21 · 22 ' 23 2 • - I have trouble specifical ' · • C Not really l Mr Maxwell And there is a nemorandum dated 26 Nove 1952 on the subject of Project ARTICHOKE from Colonel Ed1 · i And in pnra Jraph 2 b it indicates that the Chief of OTS indicated that OTS would restrict itself to laboratory -11 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 t that was done 2 I 3 OTS ill conduct 4 research 5 6 8 -0 be 9 Dr 10 Hr Lenzner · I I ml o I 1 3 '1 - I thi report in total 7 11 J j 12 • •0 i L 0- 13 i 'I 1 14 I 0 15 u 16 0 J 1 at so e point -- how long was · r--- M 0 0 0 u Mr Maxwell Ten pages or o IMybe a little bit more or Gottlieb We thought you said it wasn't complete Hr ·Maxwell I didn't reproduce it completely becau e I wanted to try to restrict the amount of material Mr Lenzner Can we look at the full report Hr Haxwell Certainly Hr Lenzner Not now but just tour leasure Mr 1axwell Surely When we go back to the office tonight if you would lil e to do that I can find it c i c 0 There i a memorandum dated 4_ December 1952 for Morse 22 Allen on the ARTICTIOKE conference of 4 December On page 3 it indicates t h a t gave a brief summary of the trip a7 in June hy an A RTIC IOKE team which I have some Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas 5 to the Nnvy 6 7 And 8 was the 9 ·-_ - - - - - · - ft f S i i · ' from the other ARTICHOKE trips _ ·' ' - J · _ __ 7 · - ✓ 5 - - _ · -• · • Dr Gottlie i · - The only_way· I can help you is just to I m 10 I Cl'-· • I l '1 - l C i 11 J confirm what you have said that ·I have a vague recollection L •a of ti1c Navy doing Some work in this specific field of narcohypn sis in respect to interrogation nut I have no more CJ details of that 0 Mr Ralston Lll t-- Dr Gottlieb do you recall if there was Navy intelligence involved in this worY or C ottlieh 0 I really don't My recollection now that we nre talking about -- so now that it is mentioned here in 0 0 u c i paragraph 12 that it was a university contract that the Navy c· 0 0- 5 i was working through Mr Maxwell Do And that was my recollection just then you recall what the research was about just in general Dr Gottlieb That it was in this narcohypnosis possibly use of barbituates or closely to ARTICHOKE I -----· - -· I I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C000950 hum an ubjects being conducted by 3 4 the 5 Chief of 6 1953 on the subject 7 8 It indicates of • in paragraph •• -· • r r · · ' - I was wondering if you - · --··-· 11 recall that case and whether in general you could speak to th 12 question of how this form of research operation as well as tr 13 form of research that you were conducting and later other 14 operating was done in conjunction with J - -- L 0 a · 15 0 LFi 1 8 4 ' ' t-- l X' I _ ' ' l i l C 16 17 18 ings no bell with me whatso- Dr Gottlieb ever Mr Maxwell If you would like to wait until you have M 0 0 0 N 19 been oble to go over mateiial on • • • • • • • _ riut I need to 23 read so e more ahout it Mr Maxwe 11 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 an nrea that the - · 4 f 5 -- area than what J fiAt i c fC you are now ask in · • 7 _ _ µ - - _ - '· Is that the·substance of the question - - f 9 4 C r · n' · C'-· _· · ••• • · · - - 1 · i¼ ' - 9 - · - - -'j · -·sr2 - f t i _ · V '1- - · - Hr Maxwell· '- The sub tance of the question is how in onn 10 tion would be made available or whether information would he 11 made avl'lilable C· J L 7 •0 12 Dr Gottlieb 13 not specifically I was preparing to cor iment very generally 3 C 14 Hr Lenzner 0 15 Mr Haxwe 11 - ' - ' L' 16 G r-- I have no problem with that 'II _ •• - • • • • - That is fine ' • • 17 • I _t a 4 · C I 'Ii u 19 Mr Lenzner I 201 _ f 21 i 22 Dr Gottlieb 11 as I This point you brinq up would be handled remember differently now that I have left the Agency than when I started in i nd if it was a drugs or audio or C00095085 1 N 0 N 2 g 3 t t a1 • ·• ' C s ' · - 6' 7 the help would 9 10 11 audio or non-technical things or what have you J 12 C 13 And that would be true whether it was drugs or What I am trying to say is it would come in as a request •0 from I ts·· f 4 approprici t ess in teIT 1s of helpinCJ or complying would he ' c decided by basically the DD or whoever he designated - 15 0 Mr Maxwell 16 lll 18 19 J c i co 20 o- 1 · v I 1 or I would think the DDP hlmself would probahly Gottlieb want to do it I Hould it be likely that the gency would I 2 l i - Mr Maxwell r -4 12 -_0 11 ir · - differential of -- I I' 0 0 0 N Decause of the sensitivity of this kind of technique and this kine of operation would there be a 17 · _ · · • '- then go out 2 1 capabilities in regard to materials such as this or Of course it is Gottlieb Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009508 1 2 C 3 0 € 4 •• - i - i 8 '4 w 1 --·C -· - r - · - J re - 1· 6 7 ' ' - - _-- - · i · ·--- I 1 - - - • ·· i I 9 t lo - 01 10 'r lc- L L 1- i - --0 I I meet- I That same memorandum the recor ehould show that there is 11 J L 0 r 12 13 3 '·b 1 --- ' · ·- • no indication that Dr Gottlieb was in attendance at the ing on 22 January It indicates on pa c 13 in paragraph lJ that the AR1IC OKE orgnnization had been studying the use of i 14 of certain facilities in the I bs as testing grounds for new 15 D ideas experiment et cetera particularly U3ing criminals l LJ 16 and the criminally insane t--- Do you recall ARTICHOKE operations 17 either in prisons mental hpspitals or other facilities that 18 might hold either crominals or the criminally insane 0 0 0 u ci c· 19 or Gottlieb s ' $ i w ' I don't remember anything like that 20 0 - I I Witness confers with counsel 21 Dr Gottlieb He are ready to proceed 22 Mr Maxwell There is a memorandum of another ARTIC OKE 23 conference of 19 February 1953 again by Morse Allen You are 24 listed as attengin representing OTS at this conference 25 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 it 19 Februll ry 2 C 1953 3 0 -- I ee it is followc Dr 4 by 5 indicates thll t 6 • think fro either Mexicc - l 3 a 4J 7 C N and the material you for 9 10 p '· C-· remember his gathering 11 J 0 • •0 It psychogenic botanical area 13 J Mr Maxwell 14 0 12 0 15 u-1 16 r--- Dr Gottlieb But I don't remember what he brought hack thi5 time or what we did with it 18 0 0 0 N 19 cJ Such as psillocybin or rne5CAline -- I don'' remember mnriju 'l na coming up -- but t 1at kind of m 'l terill l 17 And t at would be r i teri 'l 1 s Jch as -- l Mr Maxweil In paragraph 2 f l _ then discussed it notes thi t - conversations with you relative to 07S I · II 21 1 i 22 8 0 I I 23 I I' 24 activities in the field N And later on in the aper it indicates that you spoke about the activitie3 of OTS stating tha OTS from time to time reported on psycho-chemicals and announced that in his opinion several of the materials that t 11 were now using were safe enought for fiold testing 25 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 ODS will 5 3 9 t • I 0 10 I 0- I -· I 'f e C ··i 11 J 12 L • C 13 At that point testinc according to you goiDg on at various·universities and·hospital5 rather than pinpointinCJ the exact ones The CI has indicated that the list of five places where chemicals were being tested for 14 I 15 0 I Ln 16 t'- 17 I l · ·· ·· • ·· Hr Maxwell 0 0 18 19 0 N u ci c' 20 ARTICHOKE in hospitals and universities It is my understanding at that point that you were still as of 19 February 1953 in the Research and Development part of TSS or Gottlieb Hr Haxwell That is correct In trying_ to recalJ the kinds of experiments that were going on conducte by TSS or contracted out by TSS I would like to focus on experiments that were being conducted' 0 C 5 21 w 22 i vi - ' - - 0 2 in either hospitnls or if they were contracting ou to hospitals for the criminally insa e mental hospitals or prisons to try to recall what research was going on in flicilities such as that and then more particularly the kinds of experiments and the kinds Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas trols that were used in 11 Hr Haxwell They would however be in the research J i i i 0 L 12 design if in fact there wa a contract it would be let with It 13 the approval of TSS7 a J Dr Gottlieb 14 a U r-- I ' j 17 monitored them what·experiment were done or what tho 18 wa 19 I can only ay that the experiment involved both the u ci c 0 - 1 21 'vi 22 23 - clinical testing on humans 20 I s Hr Maxwell 'I or Gottlieb I I Dy clinical testing you mean what I mean the administering them to human beings to see what their clinical effect was 24 I 25 I And my remembrance of this period was that a lot of people began to I I I I design pharmacology of LSD and similar materials and probably some 0 0 Hy problem is I M 0 I that I can't remember·now·either exactly where they were who lG im gino there would be some consultation with whoever wzis monitoring the project 15ure 15 0 I I of LSD be interested in Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas 4 5 6 7 8 Hr Haxwell ·Would 'the project monitors· all bo from the • _ - T· - - - - • research part •especially· tho··research part of TSD 9 LO' I 0 10 I C- · l 11 Dr Gottlieb 12 Mr Maxwe 11 I would·think so J I r - a 3 C chemistry branch -- or would they be project monitor5 as-well 13 C They wouldn't be f ram the biology branch Dr Gottlieb 14 He arc getting into a semantics problem 0 0 15 L 16 here be monitored by TSS personnel from the Chemical Dranch were the people I am calling project monitors 18 1 I Mr Maxwell 19 j Dr Gottlieb u ci c· 0 'C 5 i 1 20 1 j' ·1 2 1I 0 I I II 24 'I 25 My r iemory is that I was Ch ief of the Chemistry -- either branch or division I forget whilt it was called -Mr Haxwell 22 2 S ·Were you il t that time in the Chemistry Brll nch I 1 I' 0 Those ii 17 Ii11 0 0 ·The things you mentioned are the same to me they would Hould it be likely that that would mean that you would be a project onitor -Dr Gottlieb myself there were two or three other people either myself Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 individual5 that - assigning a within the project or the -- ----- -- J t 1 9 - _ o· j · 0-· - L --Il' J - • Dr ' ·the most·sensitivo·ones ·and omeone el o·the less sensitive 11 ones thnt·sort·of thing ··I don't rcmel' bcr that kihd of I 12 l consideration· · ·· ·· · - - · · · · · · - • 1 '•' _ 7· - · f' - _i- ' Y· _ _ Mr Maxwell · Within•the branch ·itself·was there fairly 13 I 14 I 3 C· ' t D easy co1-1vcrsation about the· specifics ·of the particular I D I L'i •· · r i f -- -j_ ti - · _·-· · 10 Jl 0 I tend to or · Gottlieb -- r·thin -so· · i t is a ST tall branch as I 15 remember it not much compartmentation between the branch I a a 4 16 i I1 17 llit Mr · Maxwell So you would generally know what was doing 12 0 0 0 u ci C Dr Gottlieb 1- i 2C 0 Hr Maxwell As Head of the Dranch I certainly would And he would have knowledge of what you were 0' C C doing 2 I j t 1 0 22 ji 23 1 • Dr Gottlieb Hr Ralston I think so Do you remember on the contracting out wheth this was a covert contracting with a cutout for CIA or Gottlieb I think so 5 TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 they were all handled ULTM in a time aen 5e at this the papers you hav I just don't remern that the paper on 9 10 MKULTM 11 Do you recall in a general sense in regard to human 12 experimentation·at· that·timc·whethcr·therc wa5·a policy on J G· L 0 part of TSS in regard·to the forms of consent obtained or tl 13 a 1 not f - cation to those peoplc·who nre· involved in projects t 14 C 0 15 u' 16 r--- have been contracted out experiments that have been contra out or Gottlieb 17 To the best of my remembrance I think w counted on the investigator and the 5ystem they were using 18 0 0 0 the institution or installation to han le that 19 N u ci c II O' C 21 22 Ii i ' - ' He felt that was their respon 5ibility i1 0 C have nny 20 1 We didn't 2 Mr Maxwell Would· that normally be involved in a res design that was brought to your attention or to the attent I 1 of TSS I 2 25 or Gottlieb I don't think so My best recollection that is that we assumed that thcso plnce 5 we were dealing Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogsoas - · · _ - ' · the que tion before abou1 Dr Gottlieb --__ ·Hhen you asked me 11 J i 12 l RTICI OKE on l criminals and the criminally in ane I was 13 · · -- · defining it narrowly to what wo hud talked about was the 14 ARTIC OKF activities 0 15 psychochemical l 11 lG 17 - L 0 I 0 Hr Lenzner I hadn't relllized you might mean Ile asked the question specifically with regard·to ARTICHOKE Hr Haxwell That is_ correct I asked in regard to the MTICHOKE conference of February whether in fnct there had bE 0 0 0 ' u' use of either patients in hospitals for the criminally insanE ci C 0 and prisoners in prisons either hte cri inally insane or 21 crimonals 22 ii 23 Dr Gottlieb• didn't remember P e went on -- thi is no attempt to trick you -- if in fact research was done 1 either with the criminally insane or cri inals using psycho- 0 I 25 chemicals or hospital patients using psychochemicals not I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 2 3 5 6 I -- r- I _ ji' -0 - i 9 all in regard to these subject populations 10 Witness confers with counsel · · 11 Dr Gottlieb • The point wear talking about here wa 12 that the institutions where this kind of work was going on had 13 a syste for doing this · - · _- q ·--- · _ ' · · - - -- · J - L 4 • -- i '· o · -- -L• · • · - ' -_ _ 1 · · 0 Dl 14 Off the record discu sion 15 Hr Maxwell 16 17 0 0 0 u ci c 18 To make a last comment clearer the question you are referring to i between you and counsel at that point Dr Gottlieb to where we are Right I am a little lost myself now as Can we go off the recor_d for _a r iorr ent 19 Off the record discussion 20 Mr Maxwell 21 Do you have any specific or general recollection of members Back on the record 0 i vi 22 of your staff or yourself inquiring of the institution for 23 which you were working and in particular institutions such as 24 hospitals institutions which housed the criminally insane 25 and non-criminally insane V VI e - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095085 the 1 N 0 N 2 1 I t 3 · - 4 I 5 I 6 - -- 7 ------------- --- ----- ·- - · ·· · - _ · t '7- ·- · · · I had is that I - 0 9 t'- there 'l'las -consent 10 procedures but I don't remember specifically talking about them r - yself or my subordinate 5 looking into them I just have 11 no rer iembrance of going into an area now C· ' -ha-a a- ge-nerar awareness tl'fa t He may have or we J • 0 e C c - 12 13 II'I ma y not have 1· I I mentioned before these were not unwitting test 5 I I 14 I think that is on the record as I remember them 0 1-5 supposedly witting tests l n 16 tions were all towards the end of determining information about 17 these materials un ler witting conditions _· c- I They were all The tests we did at these institui 18 Mr Maxwell Was there any attempt that you can recall 0 0 0 u ci c0 19 20 ' 21 e which was provided to subjects to Make ther i witting ll Dr Gottlieb ii Mr Maxwell I can't remember that 11 22 Ii V ' made by you or your staff to determine the level of knowledge 11 I I 23 1 24 So in general the distinction you ll re drawing between witting and unwitting has to do with a broad differcn- Ii i1 tiation j• 25 'i 1- - i Dr Gottlieb nd not the information they were ·· 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C'· Mr Len-zner · · - • I hope that the Committee doesn't take Dr 11 Gottlieb in thi8 Bcn e or any sense -- when ho eay3 he does 12 not remember 13 Committee to mean that that didn't happen 14 sense that you aro r iaking an ass ption in your follow-up D 15 questions when he says no 1 have no recollection o that Lr 1 C that in act if uch a convoradtion or investigation toox 17 place when indeed it may hnve J - L •a e r 3 C that should not be inferrerl by the staff or the And I have some C Hr Maxwoll 18 lu 19 c 20 c i ly ch 1 don't thinx thot iB a logical inforenco to draw Mr Lenxner Good I Ml glad to hear that 0 end - •J Wh er au po n at 6 1 2 O p m• th• i n tor v i o t wa I adj our ne d l 21 22 23 0 4 _ - ''Approved f r Rel as 2022 02 01 C00095085