pproved for Release 2022 02 01 _ cooogs _ · r Senate ··-·' Operations With -0 Thursday October 16 1975 WJ Shington D C Stenotype Tape and Waste turned over to the Committee for destruction WARD PAUL - l l FIRST STREET S E ASiil l GTO D C 20003 • Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooa 95086 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 9 60 10 Gottlieb 11 Gottlieb 12 Gottlich Exhibit No 4 75 J - L • 0 80 ·· ·- -·· 13 ·•• · l 14 c_ · -- ---_ - - ___ _ · - ·- · -· --- 15 C 16 17 18 J 0 0 0 19 u ci C 0 20 C i 21 I 22 23 24 - -- 25 _ - - - · ----· JLk ••-· •·•··· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - STA FF I TERVIEW 1 N 0 N 2 I Thursday Oc ober 16 1975 C 0 United States Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities 8 Washington D C 9 C· The Staff met pursunnt to _notice at 12 45 p m in 10 ' ' C '· Hoom S 406 the Capitol 11 J Present L Elliot Maxwell Ted Ralston Frederick Dare and Joseph c liGenova Professional Staff lcmbers 0 1 1 li lC i i l · i 1 1 C 0 ' r 2· ___ - C · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - 2 8 'f rest U7 e he testimony of Dr Mr Maxwell • 1 N 0 N 2 Gottlieb TESTIMOHY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIED _ C 0 resumed ACCOHPl lHED BY TERRY F LEN7 NER COUNSCL Mr Dr Gottlieb again for the record I Max-wel 1 6 would like to remind you that you do retain your Constitutional' 7 rights and the right to remain silent 8 are being accompanied by counsel is an indication that you are c 9 exercising your right to counsel ' 10 l nd I take i t you nd you have a right as has been made clear before to ' have a Senator present during your testi1 1ony 11 t il e l nd I J ' i t that until you so indic itc otherwise t li 1t you agreeable to •0 • tcstifyincJ under oath without the presence of the Senator l That is right nr Gottlieb i·IF stir ulatc to the same advice of cou is•- Ir Lenzner that you gave us yesterday word for word it to save time Dr Gottlieb 0 0 0 19 I and we agree wit' 1 There is one thinrJ I w nt to put on t 1 record «s a result of the stuff you ' -P re ind cnoug l to Ji· • 2 r ie to read this r ionrinq over th it r i i terial as I m that is that I feel tolt you i11for · 1lly uc ore loo i -- · t 1c · - 22 only a sraall fraction of it that I can yive you first-han · inforr iation about 2- - recollection of '- ' · •-r be hc 1rs ly 1 UU t s to the rest if I h ivc an i·n lep'e·r c· · -iart on reaJ in J the r-1cnos i u C t i t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ' · it ould ·c · l· - 3 - 1 telling you I 2 than an interrogee or witness -' • that is what you want I will be glad to be useful that way ' C 0 I Mr J - '0 « think the best out to he best of your recollection those events that you are participating in aside from the question of the relation- 1 ' nd I 6 ij ' appreciate that if thing to do before we begin is to say that you are setting - I Maxwell nd my response is 5 9 '- am in the role of a consultant rather feel I 0 1 r ' l - l _ - I i t was conducted by the Dureau of Narcotics I haven't read anything on that in this Dr Gottlieb series and the remarks I made don't refer to that Mr Maxwell You have though reviewed the material that you have available on the Dureau of 11 ircotics Dr Gottlieb 1 l 1G i Mr Maxwell 1 Mr Lcnzner I l 'i he had Dut may I I think Terry did that I think you did There were so e me oranda on the meeting suggest thot we arc taking more time l 1 doing this th n if we were questio_ning C 0 0 ' u 1 J Why not go ahead with the questioning - I I Mr • M 1xwcll I want the record to show that the matcri that we have available on the Dureau of arcotics has been ' ·•· i• 2 -' r- • - ·• seen by Dr Gottlieb Dr Gottlieb t- r Lc11 1cr I thir k since as th t yesterday It was iftcr th0 session last Thursday ically into the me - or 1 - ••i - -I 1 as I 2 had with other officials in the government I think Mr Giordano and others 0 C 0 5 memorandum prepared at the time of Dr Olsen's death in 5 regard to the availability of LSD to a Mr George White 6 Mr Lenzner ' There is no question but what we saw that J L - •0 ' Mr Maxwell 12 I·1 • involved and we can later flush them out and if there are lti questions about other oprations in which you were not directly 5 involved or about which you might h ive some inform ition we lG I I 0 l'7 I I 1 1 11 19 - -- 0 Dr Gottlieb want to make it clear that I wasn't objecting to this role that I labeled as a consultant if ii 1 n • -- • th it is useful to you that is fine l Mr Hacwell jl 2 1 Dr Gottlieb ·I '-·· It may be Thut can be dctcrmi -icd And would you like to begin with those things that you rcc ill 11 I' I I t 21 will asr those questions later i• i v ci I think i t might be useful if you woul l like to put on the record those incider1ts in which you were I J 0 0 I had actually forgotten that because I wus tired 11 I remember that now Dr Gottlieb 10 Mr Lcnzner 9 c· In other parts of the world or something Dr Gottlieb 8 r The memorandum also included a Mr Maxwell 1 '- recall them that refer to meetingo· that Dr Gottlieb I If we are talking about the material t 1 read this r iorning the ci lsicst w iy for me to do it ' i 1n· S 41 l you have them nQutly Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95086 S t O Su• ' · ' I 5 § - 'f 1 personally invo1ved in this file 2 and so on a_nd in this one I was no 0 1 i C Discussion off the record 0 '1 Mr Maxwell s Dr Gottlieb And that seems to comprise several menoranda mostly in the fifties about policy records Mr Maxwell 10 intend to do then I would prefc to put that off for a mooent ' J II 1 • Dr Gottlieb i ii I was only going to m Y c c1 rer ic1rk about each in terms of y personal involve ent with it lj • 1 _ J 0 I Mr Mc1xwcl 1 I 3 14 do 'I 1 1 lG 0 0 u ci cC port of the discussion is going on Dr Gottlieb -Ir l J Mr i·lcJ xwell Lcnzner Fine I will be glad to do it any way you want I wculd lil e to so through some of tlH' re ainin memoranda in the tine period particularly on J rtichokc anu then irocccu ir to the cpc r 1 t ion al use 5 2 2% 1 There is a racnorandum dated-- Dr Gottlieb i - - 'I · - It muy be iiI C But could we put thcJ t off for u little while H 2C nisunderstootl whut you ould 1 i e o useful for your counsel to review those while the other 0 I I I l · · - Dccause if that is what you those files chronologically 11 - Was it your desire to go through all of 9 ' The first file is drug u e policy 6 8 Hhy don't you go ahead with these files J r 1 I to untlcrst md thcJ t these arc o lcr - tionul se so thcJ t I ca 1ut then r Maxwell That is - - - - - - - ' - - - - - - --------- -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 uside k v t r'2 - - r ·' -· - · · -- -- _·_·__· ----JI- ____ - -· 1 There is a mernora dum dated 15 April 1953 t0 t e Chief I 2 ' of the Security nesearc staff the subject being the l rtichokcj I C 0 3 conference of 19 March 1953 4 memorandum indicates that Dr Gottlieb discussed the chemical seruinim and gave 5 a detailed report of TSS efforts along these lines • 6 l pparently this chemical referred to was LSD 8 Dr Gottlieb 1 9 lJ J - 1 ata lf 0 C When I read that all I could say is that I don't have the slightest recollection of it Mr Muxwell 10 On page 3 at paragraph 14 the There is a mcmorundum -- I don't think thut you have it but I will read it in substance -- dated I May 13 1953 for the Director of Central Intelligence from I I 1 - 'I I' on t'- subject of the bricfinCJ for the • sycholoqical straLegy boarc l The· 1cncy is pcr 'orning rescurch on a druq called l I' I I ·'11 · l t' I 'serunim' lysur Jic acic dic hylumide comr io -ily culled I SO I n ii 1 l Dr Gottlieb I just clicln't retain a r ier iory of i t and I don't remember now that LSD was ever referred to in that 0 0 0 way V ci ' _ I J -' W ll nr Gottlieb Mr taxwell - - -1r r · - I do not Do you rccull 1 n l irch of efforts were bcin J raa e by TSS in Dr Gor tl icb Do you rcc ill the r lCt tin' I hi 1k I wrote in that prepared state- mcnt or real into the record I I - ---···----- what regard to LSD I ----· 19' iJ -- ' -----· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 certuinly L l 7 § - l 1 some contracts let to try to uncover some of the properties 2 of LSD · remember 0 C C g_ A 1 3 a 4 C 7hat same meeting also mentions that you I and stated it was now being tested and would be fully 6 exploited Do you recall whether in fact any of that material was I 9 c· 10 l J I II Dr Gottlieb operationally 11 used operationally Ii J Maxwell discussed the material from Latin l merica ohtained by 8 • But what they were and who they were with I don't Mr 5 - · •' I don't recall any of it being used If what you arc rcfcrriny to is these bot 111icals that were coll ctcd in An effort tu just see whcth · 4 0 • J ii there were other operationally u cful i 1t0 ri 1ls tl i t was in 1 cxpcrimcnt-il effort a · J we arc screcninq r i tr ric1ls I 1 J 1 l ut don't rcr 1ci11uer anything that came out 0f th 1t - hAt w is lj I' · J · useful Mr -lax - cl 1 l ·· t ll c s c r cl n i n CJ requrcl to the Do you rec a 11 wh 1 re scare was clone ·las screening clune on hun 'l n volunteers 1 1 0 0 0 J • -bot 1nicals ut the i1 j• ncy or b'f contracts J ci C J outsic e e O C C Or Gottlieb I wouldn' L thin n · _ 1 II 2 I i - first effort 1 ·oul l be to determine the physicJloyical ictivi · I -· ' on i nimals I JOt nu I really con' t rc ' lc1- c r o hew far they - 0 -•t 11 2 ' Uut I would thbk -- well -- -- ---------- ---- ----- lO-P Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 is S culati ve an Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - 8 8'f ' t don't think it would be helpful to you 1 0 N C 0 Could you restate your question understood I I I question to mean this testing exploitation I j I wonl was 5 l p 6 self which I clear lj I 8 ·g Divided into two forms The testing i - took to mean -- and which I might not have made in re a rel to research either with universities hos- pitals mental hospitals prisons jails institutions for he criminally insane 0perational use I took lo mean an operation for either special interrogation or to change the behavior of 10 I -- think the Did you mean were they tested on human subjects Mr Maxwell I your an individuill i or grouiJS of indivicluillS who the l ge 1CY v a -- e - ' L to feet ' 4 a Dr Gottlieb 1 C reason I in rnisinc the ciuestio 1 -i- · I Jon't have i specific recollection in is that 1 - The research prOlJram of th' SC bot nic ils J ilnd th l t sort of thing the ' could l• 1 ·c 1· hl' nsilocybins 11 i1 1ve hcen tested u 1 1 · j · -' nd if you an talking about o 1cr 1tiona l cxploit atic r think thi cha 1 C C 1 3 8 4 · · C • s th t c e r t i1 i n l y ' - 1 3 a 4 But I don't rcr c - - usc d operation i l· ·· ber it ever bei g tested c · - the Eel lrn that l r-' H ht us back thi 5 to see if it - - axw i 11 -------- -- - nr Got tlieu I think e 1ut some on ourscl• - and that w is chc test oi· · as th i t it for us lnter Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 b 9 - 1 it well could have been 2 Mr Max •e 11 who first came across it 0 C 0 t 4 Would you define for the rec8 d how you II would interpret the term operational use in order that we i might have that made clear I' 11 5 i Dr Gottlieb Hy understanding of the term operational 6 I use would be any use that would be made in conjunction with 7 I supporting an approved operat on of the Central Intelligence Agency 13 axwell 9 And how would you deTine testing Dr Got -ieb 10 l - L I' ·- 1 _ i J 1 Testing would be a case where we were trying to get information on the properties of c'I material by using facilities that had nothing to lo with it t ow the -c is such i thing as oper iti0 1 illy L in I · that is where the t· -10 -tr 1-' a we 11 Dr Cottlieb get comhined l·Jould you clef i -ic th i t Well Eor the record I would define that as a case One is i is being 1 otenti ii l · where two things are happening J _ useful to an ap rovcd operation of the l yc 1cy and the 0 0 0 other is it is providinq whut I would call researc 1 inforn 1- ' u ci tion in a testinq sense -ir 1-iaxwell - r Th -re is mcr oran i• ti1 1t I woulci 11 _ call your tttcntior to cl 1ted 11 ' f 1 3 o - the Chic ec rity ilc carch Sta f rr - orse llcn tichok Con erc 1 e of lG pril 1953 P r h1 r ph one ind ic i Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 the subject bein J t 1c · •· i • - r · · · · i - ·· · _ _----- ·- - C 10 § 'f e ' 0 ' J i ' I -· presenting TSS 1 fj aij Paragraph 2 recalls a report by n the subject of continued Artichoke experimentation and research 0 g i'' i particularly on cri inals passing through the cities psycho- ii pathic clinic II search done for Artichoke in such a setting I Do you recall that report or re- 6 Dr Gottlieb 7 · I C 10 he was with one of the other units that coordinated in the I I l I t a • J I l -- I • 1 i H l don't remember it anJ This _ n e v e r worked for me An l I would only assume can only say I 1 S a J4 C J L I Artichoke program i' r lu - ·wcll Do you remember rcccivin J inforr tion ror i other units in the gency on expcri entation per o cd ut men ta 1 hospi_ tals prisons and penal institutions lj i Dr Gottlieb I rer iember generally receiving such I I l - ' i when the inforr iation was given to me or who perfor ie l the work what unit performect it - And I may riqh now be confus l' 1 II l · ' 0 C ' information but I don't remember where they were or by what I am reading here It is 0 1c of those situations· c r •ir xwell Do you h 1vr a tJener 11 a1-1 1rc ness of csti · ' - th t nt on under TSS or TSO aus ii s It hosvit ils iT e 1t 1l hospitals prisons jails and institutions for the criminal insane Dr Got tl i eh • - ·1 cert 1i 1ly 1vouldn't say yes if OU • mean u 11 o f t o s e • If ycu car TOP - · --Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 the answer is r - 11 9 ' 0 ' Mr Maxwell 1 I 4 i 0 t I 11 -- - experimentation that went on in one or l' Ore of those t 5 i 6 i 7 I so which ones as categories rather than as particular institutions Dr Gottlieb Excuse me I would like to consult with my cou _sel Witness confers with counsel -- I ----- par ent y misundersto_od the - uestion I' I understood your question to mean could I name a specific 10 I institution in which this kind of work 1l I tions 9 '- J r -· L • 0 and if 1 4 - - · Do you have particular recollection of 1 Mr Lenzner 1 ''l 1 l I i I· 14 I' I understood the question to mean do you ' was done or institu- know '1hcther it was done in hospitals institutions for the criminally insane or institutions for criminals or any 1 j '1 l1 I other institutionsl generally I l ti 'i' I ·' I' C l C d Could you restate it and I ill try to a1 s - er as ac cu- ' I V ci regard to categories rather than a particular institution Dr Gottlieb I misun lerstoo it l 0 Mr Maxwell · l t this point it is a generul question in rc1tely 1s I can 2' ' -lr l'la wcll If it mulct be helµful we ca do it i 1 -• • · J # C r u ' - ✓ - - i 2· _ '··· Do you recall anygencral rese irch being lone u 1 lcr - · auspices ut hospitals Dr Gottlieb Yes Mr -' • 1 X 11 1 i th psyc -lochcmic lls •' -- - -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 l J_ t 12 ' § - 'f 1 Dr Gottlieb Yes 2 Mr laxwell C cals on human subjects bein done in prisons under TSS auspices I 0 0 Do you recall experiments with ps r hoche - -- t Dr Gottlieb Well I am having trouble with the terra 5 C-- ''prisons 6 7 --- Dr Gottlieb have trouble ' 1 1 F defining I wouldn't call it a p ison 'I It had people with criminal background in it but they were not confined - - The reason for the confusion here is that there were institutions or institutes that I 9 --- Witness confers with counse I I_ ' as the would be in a prison l nd I woulc l call it more uf 1 L • 0 treatment facility « Mr Ralson 1- Would this be a halfway house Dr Gottlieb SoPething like that yes It was a hospital but it was not a hospital for the criminally insane i It was just one of these definition problems - 1 Mr Maxwell Is it an institution run by the U S 0 Public llcalth Service 0 0 ' u r ottlieb Yes ci - M - -_i ixwell - _ - -- At this point I am not 'JOin J to pursue· the specif cs out that r ay well be considered in the futur Dr ottlieb '- l i will cope with it when i t coi les l ax· e 11 Or Gottlieb excuse rac Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 co unc 1 t on so c t - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ' - I 13 I hope youi nderstand · I 1 I here I i And I •1 ii criminally in5ane 5 I 6 II 0 t 2 C 0 jl mind i ar i just extremely sensitized to this leaY business am extremely sensitized to words like criminals and that reason Mr Maxwell ' - 'I 11 J a • I believe the response is II lC· ' I There w is some confusion on the part of Dr Gottlieb is to whether the institution that he hc1rl in ind Hhcre 1 · psychocher iic ils Herc testec 1 ' lcsci·ibed 1 either a prison or a ho rit d or 1n i 1stitutio11 i 1 for ' i H 0 1 l1u · 1 1n sub j1 t s 1 1 1ccuratcl _ the crir iinally insane or any other institution that it mi Jht well h ive crossed lines in the c lefinilions he wouhl h ' · I I Fine It is my understanding that your response was that in regard -- let me try to n ake clear what 'I I 9 And that is what is oing through my I want to answer the questions very carefully for 7 i -- - c ----c ---- - 8 a -n not trying to be obstructive · set up for those and that in fact it WJS ir institution L 1 it he had in mind when he was res ont ing that it might best b• _ _ calleu a tre itr icnt filcility r - ithcr th in eithc necessarily 1 0 0 hosl-'ital or a prison and that it may b t 1 it the in- l u ci of th i t ti1 ic 2 i in cri1 1inal act or r ii JllL 1 J C bee -1 convi te crir 1inols but it would not be ccurately descriot d as n 2 - detention center '-• --------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - -------- - - - - - § 14 1 institutions generally had also been-- 0 N Mr Maxwell That is right • He has not yet responded to the question as to whether i w C 0 there were to his recollection under 5 auspices cxµeri- rnents on human subjects with psychochernicnls in prisons 6 Dr Gottlieb My answer to that is that to the best of my recollection no Mr Maxwell 8 ·- TSS To the best of your recollection -- a l here I would call attention to a previous erno -- to the best 9 '- l ' of your recollection given the minute uf Lhc l rtichokc 11 C L l J 1 ii 0 TS i ausµicc psychochcmical on llu 11 in su jccts Jt univcrsit i • •J 1 4 « I conference of 19 February 1953 where they were tcstin J under J -· l i l Ii I Dr Gottlieb Could you point to the paraqr 1ph in that that you J rc referring to 1_ I Mr Milxwcl 1 r Dr _Gottlieb Pc1racir iph 8 only tells me that the l r I ·1 i C ' 1 category -- Lhere woulJ seen ta be five but there were various universities an l hospit - ls 1 nJ mine doesn't have J -0 0 Pnrc1c r iph 3 'l c1nythiny 1 ri - nxwell Th it is r orrcct l j u s i s i ng q en0 L · - for the category 2 · Dr Gottlieb I c lon' t think th i t 1 ould have been one I t hcr tu t 1e best of r y rccoll ' ct 0n priso 1S ·oulci nol -1 _ been on0 uf those catesorics C · -Ir - axwcll ow - - - - - - - - - ------------------ - - - - · - - - - - - - - - - - TOP 1 1 r rrincJ to univcrsiLies T o·r · - •· 15 § - I l 1 D Gottlieb 2 P What was your qu tio 17 0 4 • C The question is whether you recall testing on huma subjects involving psychochemicals under TSS auspices 0 € Maxwell ' Iii '1 at universities • 1 'I 5 6 Lcnzncr 11 i II unsanitized version that lists specific institutions Mr Maxwell 7 8 Before you answer that do you have an I do not hllve that with me I have access to it if I desire My nderstanding is that this repro _ ents I ' 9 -· 10 I a fair paraphrase of the specific material II Dr Gottlieb Ii I am h iving trouble with that one be- ii cause sornc of the individuals that we worked with surely h icl 1 l l • J ''-- r university u filiations L But the work with hu ' un sul ject5 • 0 · h' 1S clone in hos11itals So when you say univcr ities it is a•Jain one of ji I I t ' I these confusing terms that I would like tn l c iccuratc abuut • I ilr Len - ncl por l Jr iph C T 1is p r lgraph docs not indica e thot testg were being co 1ductcd on hume1ns -Ir Maxwell off the record Discu sion off the record Mr Lenz n c r • • t·lr axwcll nack on the record We will brea for lunch - hereupon u t 1 30 - • i n a recess was t ikc 1 the c i r in J t0 Je resur E d the sar e s y l Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 thi § - 16 'I' 1 AFTERNOON 0 J C Mr Maxwell Back on the record 3 0 TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GOTTLIEB resumed ·1 ii 5 I' 6 - ' 8 general Dr Gottlieb I think my response to that would be not ' 1 J 1 I J -· 1 1' I 1 0 _ i H 'J ' I ·1 · ti I 'I ·' _ to y recollection with a comment that lhere was some of Ii 1 L may respond under TSS Auspices of psychochemicals at universities in 10 I l I will frame the ucstion and you 7 Mr Maxwell Do you have any recollection of testing on human subjects 9 t -- SESSION I the work involving such testing that went on at hospitals that - 'ere af ili 1ted -ith univcc ities i d r iilJht have us1 J university students as a source of vol11ntr rs i·lr · -lnxwe 11 I would like to c 1ll 1 our attention to paragraph 3 of the same memo of 11 M 1y 1 1 in which ji it notes that I· l i 11 h 1nds agreed that i qre t tle il of work w is necc ss 11·· · -- and this was in reference to thC t rti 10ke work -- anti i 0 0 wc1 s essential to find an 1rc 1 ' u C · -het·e l iu nur iliers of bo ies 1 ·oulJ iJe used - for r2searcl 1nl i •• rir 0 1 10 1 Do j'OU -irec 11 thil discussio 1 o ' you r -ecall other discussions ar 1ony either the rtichoke Co unittce or members - C of the T s t l f 0 1 the need to hc1vc l 1rge numbers of bodies -·· • psychochemicills Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 § 17 'I' - l Dr 4 rer 1e - 1 ber a discussion like that no C 0 f Mr Maxwell In paragraph 7 it indicates that there was r 1 I' I 5 a general discussion concerning the prohlc i of the returning POW's from Korea 6 L · Gottlieb 0 Was any of the work done in TSS directed at research relad- 7 ing to POW'a returning or directed at POW's returning from 8 Korea 9 Dr Gottlieb 10 -·' using those people as subjects or debriefing them 1 Mr Maxwell I J - Is the specific meaning of your question First debriefing them and secondly r L • - 2 •I usin J then s suhjects for other than psychochemicals I 0 « • 1 1 And third using them as subjects for testing by psycho- I' f i 14 chemicals Dr Gottlieb 1 lC My answer would be that I have no II recollection of the latter two categories i I have a faint remembrance that in someway either we got this i And the former j 0 0 kind of information about their debriefing in a roject we 0 ' had that w is interested in fathering intelligence on I • u 0 Oss i ·- ' J •J · - blc br i inwashin J Ant I I do sort of remember th it we h ' ld acc0ss to scr 1e of • the debriefing reports r -1 ' lxwell yo 1 1 as one of the concerns of Artichoke i t •' mcmbcr i 1 eµen lcnt of their r iatcrial I t 1e quest 0 I j Approved for Release - 2022 02 01 C00095086 I 18 § - 'f 1 this concern 0 ' Dr Gottlieb 2 ' C i 0 € Certainly it was one of the concerns of tl J II Agency have to say yes in its general thrust and a ain mostly '1 Whether it was a concern of Artichoke -- I would Ii 5 II reminded by what I read here 6 Ji the minutes a couple of times I' 1 8 •• I 10 l 1 I 1 ' Maxwell Do you recall at all my discussions involv- - ing particular POW's at Valley Forge and proposals to interrogate them Dr Gottlieb Is this a 7SS effort ·1 - 1 9 _ J ' i Mr I think that term car 1e up in Mr t-1 ixwcll This was rn i rtichor c Cor u iitteee effort Ancl it is detailed in a mc no dated 8 June 1953 to 'J J ' 0 l · the Chief Security P eseurch Staff on the subject of the H Artichoke Conference of 2 -lily 1953 If you c lon't have it I will hand it to you Ii Dr Gottlieb l · Mr Maxwell I c1on' t rer 1embcr rcildin i' bout that Here it is llan ling document to Dr C ottlict l · 1 ml I cull your attention to arar1r irih 2 0 0 0 J t C C Dr Gottlieb - i re you i' sti 15 me whether I have an 0 indepcntlc 1 t recollection of th i t Mr 1 iaxwe 11 1 1 '· ·le 11 the r-tc loram um doe i not show you tttr ncla ce it tht1t 1r eeti 19 The qucs tion cor 1cs to mind Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - 19 8 ' '' POW's by the Surgeon General 1 ' 0 2 4 And the question is what possible reasons he meaning I i C the Surgeon General might have had for preventing the use o I 0 I those two chemiculs on returning POW's 11 'i Ii I• · J Dr Gottlieb J 6 I wouldn't begin to know that even huve a speculative answer II Iwouldn't And I certainly wouldn't have I 7 II 8 i1 an absolute onswer I effects of either of those chemicals been raised in the I 9 I I 10 I Artichoke Conferences 11 1 • Dr Gottlieb J 0 C t- r Maxwell l Dr Gottlieb l -- 1 ij about thern 1 I 1 f it 1 ' ' Mr lc1xwell ·' c' Mr -laxwe 11 An l it is of p lrt icular in ortu cc -r u 2 •' '' '--· 1 ussion U' L 1e rtichl C r u u tcc C C 1c Dr Gottlieb Yes - - The question arises beci-iusc those in I' ci C But if you arc asking me whether I S eci f ica 1 l· were drugs that were bciny used in Artichoke _ u · ell 1 c ' n't believe the mcJical or ba l side effects I don't rernerlbcr such discussions i 0 N That is correct remember discussions of negative effects or counter indic ti 1 _ SocH um c 1 mytal iln I 1 c n ta thol effects wccen't brought up It would be impossible tu talk il 0 0 lad any qustions about the medical Mr Muxwell 1' _1 · - the conccrnof the Surgeon Gencr 11 that· these not Le used · -i·11 · n f ict these continued to I Jc u ecl subsequent to this c 1s- o be th 1 t I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 20 - 0 ' l know what was in the Surgeon General's mind when he wrote 2 these out C Ir Lenzner When you say they would continue to be uscJ 0 t you mean used abroad t Dr Gottlieb that was run by the Office of Security 6 abroad by the Artichoke Comr 1ittee 8 - 9 i ' ii C L J I wouldn't limit ray comment to being used Mr Maxwell 7 '· Used abroad by this Artichoke group There were at least prorosals a to Artichoke techniques which by implication may ell huvc included sodium pentathol and socliu n imytal in rec_Jc1rcl to individuals loci ted with in the ll S There i s J u I a 1 1 s • i itlic ti on th it 1 c h ivc 1t this 10 n 1 1t s 1c h r 1c 1lcri 1l used cpin t i r 1crican citizens wit l i t 1c t S There i a mr r orunclur i dated 15 Ju y 19' JJ to the Chier l 1 ccurity He c irch St i in regard to t e Rticho c conferc c _· · r I It sho ·s you in att' itlancc representin J · ' of 16 Ju ic 19 3 Puragraph Sis of interest to us 1 · And it rea l F'ollowinq this llr Gottiicb c uve a very brief repc •rL 0 some of the 1ctivitic-s of the special _- -r - Curr ice on liy 0 0 u c % - • l nny Cher lical Cor is in lines of intcres to Artichoke c r - r ·- '-• 1c· l • 1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 referenced 21 § - ' l N a a 4k •I C 11 i I have no specific remembrance of that Gottlieb Dr II Again in a speculative way if i t is at all helpful to you I l V C 0 I as I remember it II would imagine that the l1 was doing a lot of synthetic organic chemical work on com- q I 5 6 11 11 l1 pounds of biological interest I I I know And they otill do as far as And this must have referred to some compounds they 7 lI i were making that had some I would imagine 8 IiI psychogenic interest And the same would 1rply to the Army I 9 Chemical Corps - axwc 11 Hhcn you use the term Army Cher 1ic il Corps Mr in a cliscussion such as is reflected in this memorandum woul - J •• Lhat rr 'er to any unit sr cifically Hithin the rr 1y Chcn1ic 1 C • J Corps Dr Gottlieb cl l I think it would refer to 1 0r e ithc r u 1c cr contract or in their '' Chc1 u cul Corps wus cloin j a sp- cc if ic q l 0 1 c in' i 1 1 r c i l l Lh t the 11 1 i' in t is cor text rou 1 · r H xv ill 11id no fall t 11c er th qencric terr t C 0 C' 1 0• lc i-' r - ·axHell just J · 1 ut • h it other - inits i i • ir icular Ur Goltlin The ------ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ----- -- ------------ - - - - 'h iq-0-- ' -- - - r' r1 - - · -' - ' · i - 22 l Edgewood than Frederick if I rer iember correctly had a 2 large and active program of testing in various ways on _ humans and otherwise but they had companies synthesize materials 0 i C 0 i € of interest to them from their chemical warfare point of 5 view and they were specifically intere3ted as l deposed 6 earlier in LSD ------------ ---- -'----- -------- --- - ·- ---- -- Mr Maxwell Were you the person who was inv i ed in 7 8 c - Dr Gottlieb I think -- as I 9 '• remember that time I certainly wasn't the principal point of contact but one of the• n pco lc that worked with me or close to me wa J J L e a 4' C '·lr t 1 1 ell iho would th it ue Ur Cut tlieu •I 1 l I don't remember _•1 several Dr Lashbrook or bilitics l I Could be iny one o wou lrl l c two pos sf ju t don't rerncTTlhcr specifically Can I consult with my counsel Witness confers l _ S r M lX 'C'l l Docs the reference in l•J ar 'yraph 16 tu the rc ulc t i t hatl b cn obtained from the botanlicills 0 0 1 S a rcfrc h - your -cc ollcction It ' all' lh • - with counsel ottlicb lot specifically 1 would surmise some tests h Hl been run on these psychO jcnic rnaterials hethcr · just cxtracte the ri s id • I I' · 8 i 9 10 i TI·· ·2-c- • 11 ' Cr J • • ·- l · •- · • specific proposal was I I Li - ii _2 11 i I Mr 1-lilxwell di No I don't rc ernbcr thut Do you re cal 1 the circumstances in which it was raised or·your first reaction to it or the discussion 14 c Dr Gottlieb 1 that followed C l I lG iiI• 17 iiJ ' 13 • 0 0 0 Li 0 c Dr Gottlieb No recollection Mr Lenzner I think the witness testified yesterday that substances were given to people who were overseas or going overseas so that they could become familiar with the effects of certuin drugs 2·_ 0 f Is this the same Dr Gottlieb No I believe t at happened later than w - - this And I don't correlate this project proposal or rnentioni11 of the dcsirauility of that with that activity Mr 1- axwell Doyou recall Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 any way connected --1 I pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ' J t 1 with the experiment ng 2 and other personnel at TSS a · i¥ r if - • _ 1 t 11 - _ fJli h t 3 Dr Gottlieb ·- No -I do ·not · ' ' '· 4 Mr Maxwell ' - • Do you ·recall in the context of this pro- - Ji2· - '- - · · - · A - 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 -± f Q C II 12 paragraph 6 of'a 30 July 1953 memo the Artichoke Conference of 13 15 July it again references Colonel Edwards proposal 14 gives it in slightly more detail It should be noted for the record that you are not 15 L1 t·-- 16 shown in attendance nt this meeting but that Dr Gibbons l was representing TSS • • tj I would like to ask you whether in fnct this helps you 18 '00 0 ' u d c0 20 L i 21 'vi 2 0 Dr Gottlieb No it really doesn't I read this i s recall the proposal made around that time 19 - It J - J - - --- _ J with quite a bit of interest I And if I had an awareness of it I have forgotten all about it And I am even now re- 23 ii I 24 considering in my mind -- they may have been the forerunners of this project Mr Lenzner ncntioned but I can't testify with any assurance as to whether even that was true 25 J ·t - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 · t f t · _' · ' - v 25 Mr' 1axwell - Did __D r _ibbons-'know'·c f the experiment · _i_ - it 1 • i J i f sr -f 1r13 f ' - -that you were conducting on yourself and other TSS staffs •g 3 f Dr · j· · ·· - · '· # _ _ - rd ft• - t · t 1 4 - t i f 1 · was an agreement that this should be referred to the training 6 ' branch as to whether they considered the matter feasible and 7 sound 8 Dr Gottlieb I didn't understand the point that you just 9 -- 11 0 12 a 13 •0 in which you were employed had considered this idea at least worthy of being explored with the training branch and there 3 is no indication in the minutes that the testing which you 14 C C 15 t 16 · i Mr Maxwell That or Gibbons who was chief of the service I t r testified he knew about was brought to the attention of the people proposing the test Dr Gottlieb Yes 17 Mr Ma Well Wl s the testing that you were conducting 18 0 0 0 'u ci C on yourself and other 19 members of the CI 20 2 I really don't remember I think I 21 3 w TSS staffs or other staffs performed by medical staff Dr Gottlieb C s deposed in the prepared statement that some of them had a 22 physician -- researcher in attendance and some didn't ii - i I made 10 C's 0 I tion that Dr Gibbons raised that issue and apparently there 5 I Mr Maxwell • ·The record should show that there is no merl- 4 - - · •··t tt i r t f l'fr ' I nu I really can't remember now w cther those were mcclical staff i i' 25 p eople -rom _t_h_•_ CIA or some of the researchers we wer- e·-wo·-· r b- _ j - ffl RM - _ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 _J_ - - - -· --r'- ' j r -· 7 - ' -' • ' - • W ·_ - - _- - · -_ -· - - '-' - -- - - - is 26 t ·· i th r t'he outsfde ____ · -- # -1 - · Jtf f r -t t- i -- - __ - ' · ' ·-· v-· • - i U § ' - •• 1 - - ' - - --fi • -- Mr · Maxwell -S -wllr_ ecall your attention to g 3 € 3 a 4J · • - - - - 1t i t· J ' 7 - - paragraph 10 which ·notes _that Dr · Gibbons pointed out that working with t - T' ' -i u b i' - -e ple might be very I i t 1 J j 2r _ __ - - 5 advantageous sinci·h ' tatcd that the 6 permitted ccrt tt ffl ' ttt ot permitted _i - - · - overnrnent by ··-- _ 7 I the I I · U S Government i e experiments on anthrax et cete a ----- 1----- s---an- - e--rescarch--donec-by -TSS performed--by-t ·hH'e -- 9 '- · · ' e c researchers outside of the U S 10 Dr Gottlieb Not to my knowledge 11 Do you mean did we have research going on outside the J • 12 borders of the U S nd I 1 contract research Not to my remer lbrancc 14 Mr 1-laxwcll 0 C l understand you 1 iean similar to Your understanding of contract research _ 15 would mean simply where you were farming out a contract or • 16 a particular r6search project -•J I I• 17 I 18 1 19 20 - 0 Dr Gottlieb A piece of work yes we weren't doing it ourselves 1-tr Maxwell l nd obviously there was operational rcse rch in the way we define -- 21 Dr Gottlieb Operational testing 22 Mr Maxwell Oper tional testing going on outside 2·1 Dr Gottlieb Yes 24 Mr rt ixwcll Do you rcc ill any 25 HKULTRA or in tance under either where research was ··· I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 2 be perforr ed 3 4 that Rut the 5 · ' - - · - · -- - - 6 we we had any for ·- ·1 i · 7 this · 8 wou - 9 right any So that • j • i -· I I Ul C 10 Mr 11 There is a r iemorandum da tcd l G July 19 S 3 to Artichoke for the record J • • 0 12 representatives from the Director of Security on the l subject l rtichoke restatement of program 14 proposed by the Director of Security in order that the alle- 15 gation of responsibilities be ma lc clear and that all the 16 participants in the Artichoke program under the aims of the 17 program 18 aims found in paragraph 6 and as best ro 1 can recall tell us 19 whether this accurately suTTU larizes the aims as you knew ther 1 This was l I C C i t' ·- r- And I would like you to look over the restatement of 0 0 0 u ci II it I I These iims included c 2 ' ' the time 21 utili-z in9 existing drugs hypotheses and other elements for th 0 to perfect techniques 11 I t - - 1 ' • extraction of information fron individuals whether willing 22 or not as well as working· in coordination wi t h TSS ancl the 23 - 24 I medicnl staff for research and expcrinentation within TSS 0 25 i and the medical staff for the devclopr ic t of eans for the I - _ ------- I I I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 · 28 indivic uals 2 2 i g in 3 TSS and the 4 ' _ -·· 'k ' _ · - 6 ' 7 ------ of 5 · - · -------·· --- - -- - I i 8 of that l kind of 9 i' i ·• 1 J_ ' bL I a recollec- - - ·- - · ·· -- - _t · - - · -- · _ - · I fits in with my general rcmembruncc of what rtichokc ·wus nll about 10 ·-·· Mr Maxwell 11 ·• · ·•· ' 7hcrc is an undated memorundum to the J • • 12 Director of Central Intelligence from the Director of Security 13 on the subject of experimental project utilizing truining j 14 volunteers ·1 15 and sec if thut refreshes your recollection about the proposal lG that was discussed in the earlier l rtichokc meetings 0 l I was wondering if you would look that over 17 The notes hat the technical §tuff -- in this case the· 18 Technical-Services Staff -- will· pnrticipa c actively in this 19 progrum and would furnish new substunces und advice as to thcif c 20 utilization C 2 I i' 0 0 0 u 0 0 2% ii r- · _ - That doesn't jo9 my r 1emo1·y I Let c cqr u- ient here that I assume when you bring up a 1 ''1 question like you just did what you are asking c is do I 1- 2· i rem ml Jcr anythin J beyond what I I 2 a 1 1 reac ling here Is that it 4 - ' i_ ° it -i - f · '• pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 1 ·J 0 2 C 3 0 f 4 5 6 7 8 • ' - 9 10 C·• - 11 C · Dr Gottlieb J J I have one 19 Novernbcr but I don't have 12 0 13 a J a 16 Novcrabcrone Mr Maxwell The subject is the Artichoke conference of 14 22 October 1953 You will note in paragraph 5 that 1 3 a 4 C 5 stated a draft of the proposal for an experimental project using 16 specially screened trainee volunteers would also be given 17 to the Artichoke conference members at the same time that refers to the training proposal that I just showed you requests all mcrnbcrs to cxa ii ' the draft make any notes corrections additions and be prepared to discuss the proposals at the following Artichoke Conference Do you recall that proposal be circulated in TSS 0 • Dr Gottlieb Not independent 25 --------- --·-- ------ -------------- ----- ----·--- TOP pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 i I believJ 18 And it indicates I I read here I i pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - ---· l•· i_1· - ' • C 0 f 2 to the 3 occurred at the 4 · t Gibbons 5 6 and 7 this as far as Mr 8 or 9 -·· - -- 1 1'f· 1 '5 c · -- · 0 a a memorandum of tho meeting to speculate to other individuals 13 within TSS 14 t •f happened 16 t- 0 ci thought needed to know this one or the other 20 c One of two things probab y would have Either I would have brought the ninutes if they those people that I 19 N · know them to read or I would have probably orally briefed 18 0 0 0 were given to me back for people whom I considered needed to 17 Dr Gottlieb 15 I -• ' • - - -J t_ - -- t that you would do essentially a memorandum of conversation or 12 • -- - -- -- ----- ---- choke Conference or a mec irig_like that would it be likely 11 c tu Y 1ftt Jti Cc' is' correct ·' t -- -- _ ' Mr Maxwell When' you·were _in ·attendance at an Arti- 10 J ' _' f Y-t· ·- - 0 0 t- r Maxwell Do you recall doing that in reganl not r · · C 21 i j 22 i • 0 I I 2 i 24 25 sarily to the Artichoke meeting but to other events like that Dr Gottlieb That is such a general question That was the normal mode of operation Mr Max-well Has that also true with other members of _ n p ECrl l Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 2 Chief of the 3 4 orally to 5 disseminatio 6 - -- - - - - - · j z - - - -- --- · -·1 rcoroner·Drum was there· he probably had a slightly different variation on that theme 8 G' I I Mr Maxwell Do you recall the particular r lO le adopted 9 - - _ j by Colonel Drum or by Dr Gibbons 10 · Dr Gottlieb No I don't 11 0 ·L- t · C -' • 0 a Except I don't remember havinc 12 a feeling that they were withholding information from me 13 that I ought to know 3 Mr Maxwell That same memorandum -- the record should sho CJ· 14 0 15 that Frederick Daron of the Senate Select Committee staff has 16 just come into the hearing room • · On that same memorandum it notes that under 17 0 0 0 19 u ci c 0 Q' consideration was the purchase of 10 kilograms of LSD 18 1' 20 21 11 i - just showed me Mr Maxwell I will just sum up that memorandum and I several succeeding ones 22 23 i I' 0 Are you referring to the memorandum you '1 1 C s Dr Gottlieb 2- 25 ii I Dr Gottlieb Decause I see on other ones - R Na -- ell At the nceting on 22 October a proposal wus discussed to purchase ten kilograms of LSD supposedly held by · TOP SECRET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 •• • • • I I I • O I o 3 • • I 1 3 a ------- • 8 • •• • • • • ·--------· • • • • • I Would i t b t t procedure for purchases like that 9 ·o • 7 • • • 6 • or operations like that to be approved at the level of the 10 L J · '- Director 11 ·c L •0 12 • a 7 1 ' G Dr G Jttlieb I think I can best re pond to your •I II II question by telling you wh 1t I know c1bout th 1t whole ir cident I 1 · l• l 15 I Would that be appropriate 16 I confine my5elf to your question '-··· l 17 -- 0 0 0 u ci lU i ca1 answer your question off the record by saying I I can't answe it because it was such iln unusu 1l situ ition thot it can't be compared to was it the usual practice 19 1·1 I r- r 1- axwe 11 -lhy don' t we do th i t on the rcco rd cC 20 21 • 22 i thing 11 23 a bizarre memory of it i - I I ii IL 2 l Dr Gottlich a Ii I You mean just com nent on the whole Decausc it was a fairly involved incident and I have Mr l- axwe 11 Okay I' r Or would you rather I narrowl·i I Dr Gottlieb - •· ·1 l-iy ncnory of the incident involving an I · - •• · _ - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 L •a I l • One of the sequellae of this whole business was 11 cussion of whether we shouldn't pre-emptively buy it on the 12 b 1sis thilt this raaterial had either posed 13 the U S l or could give the Russians J · Government in LSD it created quite a start pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 1 cost 2 3 And '1 like you 5 6 probably a -7 and no one ' • • ·_ Russian interest in that specific thing • to confirm the - -- - _ r· · ·--- - --··- - ' ' ' • - ' 8 '- ·· • Dut no material as I renember it was ever bought 9 10 in that sense 11 dent was And that is what my remembrance of that inci- J Mr l- ax1 cll l '' I II staff counsr l for he Senate Select Comr iittee is also now in 1· _ 1 14 I at tend --ince There i 5 I lG 17 is an agenda for an Artichoke meeting of 19 November 19SJ with the first heading being a discussion of LSD i - - Iip 1 Let the record show thut Joseph diGenov i ' l • Ii I 2•' I' 2 _ 2·· Can you recall Dr Gottlieb whether that discussion refers to the Dr Gottlieb Excuse e I am a little confused The r ier io I have c lateu 19 i ove iber 1953 c loesn' t see11 to fit the one you are talking about 1 23 I I see It is the one before that i _ t ·• I'-1 ' 1 I L ii - r 1axwell I would like to know Dr Gottlieb if can recall 1 hethcr Iter i lo ·l the discussion of LSD ro referri 'I l11 A6 £tl-W - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 -· pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 1 ·J 0 2 l0 3 € 4 5 6 7 8 9 _ 10 r-· r'-- 11 -i t •0 - i assumed Mr H ixw-cll Underneath it says purchase• question mark' 13 I l Olsen test brought up 1 4 c· Dr Gottlieb That is what I 12 L Dr Gottlieb 15 1 S a 4 6 Mr Haxwell There is a memoran lur for the record based C 0 0 0 19 u clarify that point I I It only discussed the proposed re- statement of program that you sa before an l the experimental I 11 project utilizing training of volunteers c5 c 0 1 8 t 4 3 c ' attention 2l to pa r g raph 2 where representative of the 22 2 ' progr3rn 24 rersonnel - - - 1 _____ _ 2 i i medical office J nd I call your rccor unende l c i s that the testing not be confined merely to male volunteer trainee · - which doesn't on thatrnceting from I believe 17 18 Hine doesn't have that much ponents of but that it be broadened to include all the coD- 1 _ 0 N 2 2 C 3 0 t 4 5 6 8 it 9 ' 10 1 3 a 4l C1 J 12 L that was referred to the entire report from in testiDony yesterday I 4 _ 0 • 13 I would ulso iike tu - c J - c c i ' len t f ro1t1 thu t and J 14 15 16 1 S a 4 7 C n 1s to get Dr Gottlieb' s rcsrionse to that comr ient It concerns the sa e ceting the sa c eseries of rncetinqs that was discussed yes terc1ay in which it was brought out that had stated that he knew of no incidents that had occurred in regard to LSD when later a colleague of indicated that 0 0 0 there hud been at least one u ci incident connected to LSD indicated to that We r iiqht use up to 200 gamma per subject says to • suggested that if therE is no severe psychic change in u nor 1 - individ1Jc1 l with one 1 im · a per kilogra n go to two g inma Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 on you conducted 2 3 either on 4 Dr 5 accept the that the rnngc wa1 comrnen t 6 Mr Maxwell ·· ·fr· i _ _ _ 10 Mr Ralston • May I claiify something _ -· _ · t t Sixty to 100 micrograms per kilogram of bodyweight · - -· - - That would be an enormous dosage Dr Gottlieb No 11 Mr Ralston 8 9 We are talking about micrograms and J not groms 12 • 0 Dr Gottlieb Hicrograras per individual 13 E That is the tolal docs 14 Just to clarify this the reference that you just read 15 to me of o c microgr m per kilogram for th vera9 human 16 would be about 70 micrograms 17 1e I 1' 19 11 0 0 0 N u ci c 0 w we are talking about 'I Mr Ha - Well 1 2C So that is the range that What would you set as the arameter the kind of safe range in regard to LSD as you ca recall it 1 11 2 i ·I 2 l1'I at that tir ic Dr Gottlieb That is a little hard for oc I can only 1 remember at you were using h as 25 i i vcl y sa c ran jC _l nc I r coµlc bei 1y g1 vc 1 five ·le felt the range I racntione CJUt SS we h 1d inforMation about six seven tir ics t 1at rnch with TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 t - f 3 a 4 'O 5 6 8 9 at the time 10 I could only co ent thut you are talk- Dr Gottlieb 11 J L a - 12 ing about a period of ti e when work was beginning in this 1 ' field and there were all_ sorts of conflicting reports and 1· it wouldn't be unusual to read of discussions such as this I 4 - ' 0 0 0 N i 15 where one person said this and the other said this and he 16 said that is probably due to the fact that•it was decomposed 17 and he wasn't really g tting thatmuch lr Maxwell 15 I Your recollection is that i t was probably 19 between sixty or seventy micrograms that was being used in 20 experiments done on his staff or o yourself u c i c 0 C 2 ' I I 1-lr Ma w'ell I 22 2 S • think the understanding is that this part of the deposition will be ter inatcd and Mr Ii Ii 0 Dr Gottlieb Yes Daron and Mr diGenova will continue questions ·in regard to other I -r - - subj ectcs -- -Whetr---t -h-e-y---tra-v-e--corapict-cc ·t r i-cques t ionincj -wc ·· 1 reconve no to con tin Ta he Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 testing wTl r---1----- I at page 10 -1 i I 4 5 I 6 i 7 I 8 effect on other dcpres· ted p ti nts -that observation was made • - ---- i t r f -· · '· by another doctor in h ·same eport 9 -r Mr Maxwell 10 't 1 Discussion off the record 11 - J Mr Daron Dack on the record 12 Dr Gottlieb wh ' t I intend to do for the next hour or • 0 13 1 0 Off the record is go over a ·series of excerpts from the Inspector General's 14 re2ort of 19G7 which mention various schemes for action against ·15 Fidel Castro thut involve devices or materials developed 16 17 - -- cases your name was mentioned as one of the people who was 18 In some of these in CIA laboratory is by CI scientists interviewed by the Inspector General's office and who did have 0 0 19 0 N u c i i a recollection bout the events 2C 0 i In other coses you are not nentionc l but bec i usc of your position in the CI at the time 21 1 22 we were interested in what light you might be able to shed on 23 these developments ' - i And I think the record should reflect that your counsel has had a chunce to read these documents over at length and - - - - - - - - - - -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 2 3 4 5 6 · · · - - ·- · - f ·1 -¥ r H§ · - - - ·• - ·-·· Mr Baron Also one·moie··1tem for the record 7 •You are willing pre you not to continue to testify 8 under oath in the absence of a Senator 9 Mr Lenzncr Yes we have been throuqh all that earlier 10 on the record this morning WE assume we arc following the 11 J s t1 r e g u id e 1 i n e s 1 L •0 -Ir Daron 13 It 3 Hr Lcnzner Mr U 1ron So you are still willin9 Yes The first excerpt I would like to turn to 15 is from page 10 of the IG report of 1967 16 AncH t is headed l erosol attack on radio station 17 l nd then there is an attachr icnt fror i pa9c 11 heuded 18 Ii 1 I 0 0 I Contarninate l Cigars 11 An l I 19 I' 0 N u 0 think we will deal with those two first hcforc we 2 I 21 move on Hr Lenzner l nd the question is what is his recollec- 2 I • I 2 tion of thi5 incident ___ Mr oa__r _o_n_ __ cn r _a - c - question -ould be do you- recall ---- ------- - · - - --- ---------- anything about those specific incidents or bout the preparation TOP RET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95086 __ is that 2 I 3 aerosol 4 to it 5 as Gottlieb 6 -- -eport 8 9 referred to was Gottlieb Exhibit No 1 10 for icentification 11 J 12 ii L i •0 13 J l - I 15 lG I ' 17 1 I I 113 h 0 0 0 N u c c 0 · 22 ' iI I 23 I' 1 C - ---25 - ----- --- --------- -------- --- 0 2 ' i I' ET · I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 N 0 N 2 recolleca suggestion tion 5 6 - · ·- · · _ %i rt-- · · - · - -- - _ - _- -· - • - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - · - - 7 - _ i i 2 i t -J • • ·_· · _ • ·- _ -• aerosol spray be used·against 1 Castro in a radio station that 8 you remember 9 · · I P 1 ft 1 · Dr Gottlieb 10 Reading this 11 J U thut brings 1 ii ---- Hr Daron · And there would be· a discussion that an No I don't remember him as a target i I I have one of these h zy recollections that comes ur r lio studio ind aerosol but thut is about ii _ 1 •' II 1'1 j lG i 11 Mr Baron sprays being use l to disorient or incapacitate or II kill any foreign leuder i I Dr Gottlieb 17 Acing used Hr Daron Or developed or use against a foreign leader I l i And do you have any knowledge of aerosol Dr Gottlieb 0 0 I Jon't -c c cr any discussion of 0 N u ii planning or use ot aerosol s 1 - 1· ·s i 1 this connection 2t• - j Mr Daron And was there any liscussion of or planning foi ' l i use of LSD against foreign leaders as a means of incapacita- 1 1 ' · _ - ' I • tion or disorientation - - Dr Gottlie l I certainly do i 't rene bcr anything i --11----· - ________ _ ___________ ---- --- ---- ------------------- __ ________ - --- 25 i terms of a s 1ecific foreign leac er 1 - The generic subject has ·I i i I I - ----Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086° • ' •• I AQJWWWWW kd W U IUA W%% t - 1- T TO p ' Fii ti J ii ' I 1 been talked about·certainly 2 use LSD But I don't re c cr either the specific discussions 3 or when they took place anc I do 1 1 t·rcmcmber tho discussion 4 being in terms of ·any specific leader - - _ · 0 · 7 C 0 f · ·tt0 t · -1- - f _l _ · -1 _'- · - S Hr Daron ' ' 1 _1 Who·was porty to those discussions 5 6 -- O -- l _ •- c o t t· - - k - t · _ - J'-c-·• - f a' n _ •- t _ ch e l cc-J- ' ·· ·•_ _ • ·_· · u i 1 l -··_J· J· _ 'i ' •- • • •• • I ' • •• - Ti h oo ss eeC-c_ wr Ee I -1 ----'1 J S -- c-c · - 1 • 7 cussions in co nec ion·· ith just discussions of this intelli- 8 gencc tool that was bcin talked anout - - · - - _ - · - - - - '- t t - _ 1 Mr Lenzner 9 10 between the prior interrosation and this interrogation 11 we have just gone over in great depth defensive and offensive 12 use of L D both how it can be used again the U S leaders L' and how it can be used for interrogation purposes 14 will continue to do that at great length nd so there is that 15 I 16 I l ' 16 0 J II h il I apprcci te that And ask you to bear gation I-loving on to the section on contaminated cigars on I page ll of the IG report pages 11 an l 12 the question is I 1' I 21 '· 22 ii •j whether you remer ilier anything about the treatment of a box of cigars which was stored in Jake Esterline's safe to be used I 2· --·--- And we with me because I haven't been privy to that entire interro- 'i Mr Daron ii And overlap l ii 20 C There is a certain overlap here obviously against __Cus tro t _____2• -- _____ _ ii· ri- G i- ti 1i 11 Dr Gott l L -l _• ___ Mav _I _ finish r_Qci i lq -this --------Mr naron · T Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 '-· 0 2 i l • € 2 And had you not sho cci 3 able to recall this n - 4 my memory business 5 Mr Daron on 6 to that - - I '--·' I probnbly wouldn't have been - m settling on the clarity of You c i g to the first full paragraph a e 12 which bes i plot involving ci r3 8 i J r iy Dr Gottlieb Yc3 9 s ' J Sidney Gottlic c · · · _ i iins to remember distinctly a 7 -- · • I •'--· N remembrance is that I was not personally involvcl i · n t was just made aware of it IJyi U a 4f c 11 somebody who might t · c _ who might h ive been J • 12 aware of what wos go r •j C 13 Mr Daron h'ho J D J IG report but is no i - ·e is the rcrson that you recall 15 approaching you with - 1 · ·- o t rca t cigu rs Dr Gottlieb 'ri i i · ·1 I lB 1 9 'I 20 ·I II u c i 0 2 j 22 i said I w is lighting on that particular sentence 17 0 l i officer who is mentioned in the 14 lG 0 0 1 1 I Ii 11 Can I go off the · - · i f H· a r iinutc here Mr n-iron Su -- Discus ion o f c · c - - · l Mr Oa ron Rack o·· t e 1· co nJ low Dr Gottlic i f 1ir to say that 1·our recollec- V tion of the officer i ·t c cd you with il scher e to tre t cig_ us _co__E _s_r i t __ go _tcy - i · · is pri - tcJ here in the IG report ro¢RET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 45 § e 7 Dr Gottlieb I think that is f ir to say 0 h 1-lr r Daron Can you add a 1ythin9 to the note in the IG report that refr rs to the filct thot you rcmcmhcr the plcrn h 'i1 f concerned with killing Dr _ not merely with influenciny bchovior ' Gottlieb IJell the only thinq I Cil n add i - based G on knowledge thilt rcmembrilnces that were stimul J tcd by whot 7 I have heard about this recently E h ive been confusing other events with this namely botulism toxin £ · I I now Rec that could c1nd that sort of thing with this pilrticular cpi soclc which could hove involved LSD Let rH isk you quesLio11 ibout that i oct Jr f 0 thi the i t' G 1 iuut 11 · yc 1L·s iJ•Ju iJnu 'it is ri fcrri ·1q to inciucnls Hhic 1 'oulu h v- been little bit loser in tir c then when you were l ei nCJ intcrvicwc l th J 1 they iJrc now· Dr Got tl i ch r fro 11 your 1i iGc 1ov i h c y are e i J ht · e i rs o 1 d Yes Just so we L1 sti n 1y ju L i sccn 1 unci r t i n 1 ltJ J ire you s iy - tlt 1cn you Luld i - • ore 1 q n • 8 · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086' _ - · ·1· _ - ci¼ r - _ - · ·· '- -t - j -- · ' --- - · · - _ - f'- ' 7 _ ___ • · - ··- 1 • · · · -·' i _ 'f-P' Y - TOP · Rey·--- - -Hi g 0 I' 11 for your benefit what you mean when you-said what you l 1 said 1 ii Dr Gottlieb I think I C 0 € just could best do this by your re- stating the ucstion I want to know if you ciln add anything Mr 13aron I to the note in the IG report that refers to you as saying th 1L ii these cigar schemes were concerned with killing not merely G ii 7 i 'I --'1i Wlia-------- -· - 4 tl --------------- with influencing behavior In other words do you have any recollection al Jout cii cussions of ur trc«tinCJ cigars as a mc in r illinCJ a fnreiq 1 leader 0 r C - ' i t 1 Cs Uc t ottl i dJ I simpl· · rne 1n to s 1y L 1 1t th it were - ll ' in r h 1d hcc rel 1hou t •i • t ' 1c I JH th Ct Ins C l l co1t1 1 ha· abouL C istro th t 1 either· - ' involved _Jt1in J n i 11d I i sec I can't tab it - ny ft -t er t h u1 t 11 · r cliC cnov 1 ' 1a L you rnc 1 1 a ' _ - • l Inspector l c icri l Or Gottlicl J Yes • Li ' - ----- --------- - ---- ---------------- -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95086 5 · ·• i·' - ' i6 -• · • 7 8 - _ ·_ 9 -P 10 11 1 a 4 - W can help·· t f me - -r t - - · - · I · I am going to quotc frora'it rhnd you have a copy in ' - - _ - pS ·· _ -·- front of you as· an c - hibit i lt snys · · ·-· -f 1 i - J • ··I would jus like·±o· go •_into' that · for ·a second And you 12 13 Sidney Gottlieb of TSD- lnins to remc ber distinctly a plot involving ci nrs To·enphasizc the clarify of ·his J 0 i i 'L 14 -J l 15 - 16 -' 17 I-· u 19 talked about frequently but not widely and as being con- c0 20 c C i i · e • which deals with who thi person was i t goes on Gottlieb remer iliers the scheme as being one that was 0 An l then skinning over the middle section of that 18 00 • · memory he namecl the of·f·if f hcn assignecl t w h o _ _ -- -- - approachecl him with the scheme 21 22 23 24 25 cernecl with killins not nercly i th influencing behavior Now this cliscussion in the Inspector General's report appears in that part of that report dealing with the attempts and the plans related to Castro When it says in here that you -- when it quotes you -- i t doesn't quote you it attribute scherac as being on to you the statement that you ' •'• Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95086 48 I I I 1 I _ · • t - - I call what·you may hilve meant when you said that about were tho '1e N 0 2 I _ - · • C discussions within TSJ were those discussions outside of 3 0 TSD what you·wr re re errinq to when you g ve this informv tior t1 to the Inspector General or ony inform ition which might 5 · help explain what this sentence means on page 12 of the In- 6 _ 7 - It talked about frequently but not widely 8 That has the implication of bei g very tightly held but nonetheless bei g i 9 O ' specter General's report _ · 1---- 10 ' 11 talked about repe 1 tec1ly within a very limi tcc1 framework of · ·- - individuals I I J • 12 a Dr Gott 1 i c 1 • I 1 i r i II cigars that ·s0mehow might be related to killing Castro -- and I don't remember now w ether it was using one substance or just using this another suhr ta nce or several substilnces but 11 -- _-ere freciuently vehicle as a me ins of gcttinq at Custro II11 but not widely tu lr ect about i nd hen you 1s ic wi ' i 1 - · i 1 _-oul l hi' l ve to say 0 0 ' l ' ··• • · no I - • C - C 0 That _ ' S • I • r itors the next question I was going Ii to ask you 2' r I I V - hc t rr n r brrtr c is that it h id solcl ' to Jo with the Co Lro ituatio11 an that schemes or talks a o 15 lG ' y 2· First of all woul l this have ccn to caybe help you or i clearly get in your - i 1d who if rnyone r ic_ ht h 1vc been t' lc I 1 pcrso 1 who -ould h we c roachcd you ubou -- h ideas _______ _ i -------- i 1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 elease 2022 02 01 C00095086 JIJ 1i _c_ - - L ffef j-_ G rcmcmb0 r wos the-first time anyone 1 0 if you an't r c bcr who thc1t person was 2 2 even C 3 you with informatio 1 co 1cc - 1inr a sc ic i 0 l ever appro i chcc I plot a plan look- 1 inc for an operatio 1 capacity conc ' t'ninq C i stro and his possible assassinc1t u 1 5 6 8 ' I ··• Dr Gottlieb Ct -t 1inly t · 1 1 ccific ye i r doesn't 11 c Do the dates mentioned here in this part docs that ring a bell with you that ycur 10 I Hr diGenova of the report which - ·ould huvc been sometime in 1960 -- 9 0 I can't assign a date to that I am sorry 7 ' Dr Gottlieb J L • About all I con 12 0 · in my ' stiy i rcs 10r - - -i 1 ic- thr1t there is noLhi • rcrncrnhruncc 1 s iy i LL 1 1a vi · no other remcr i- J brance to add to it 14 about such a scheme 16 I 17 I 0 0 0 Dr Gottlieb Uo The only thing I recall with S IC ii 11 Oo you recall who first approached you Mr Daron 15 lz3 I It specificity is that the iuea of cigars first came up in this discussion wit 1 ' u-entl· ' i 1 - cntificd officer V c i 1 2' r r l nar cs which rauy assist yo 1 ' l - ··• · · • cvcral - r diGc1 o' · - • · · ·· I• 7ry to Mr diGenova l an goiny to give you names which I kno S ' th in JS whic h· sound like - i ' ' Or Gottlieb i ' L 0 are directly related o cert Jin thin Js and if in fact l sound like Ober so be it -- i Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 they -' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ' -__ · - · '_ _ · • i · - - c- 'j - · _ • · - 1 2 i i • •01--•t' ' ' o r - _ 'i7 • ' _l ' o j ' ' •' • - ' CC ' ' 1' f t if tt' - t r 2L' ·• ' --r c ------'-·-· _· · f' '' tci'i f ·s _ _- _ ·'·· · - - • · r - •- fy • • -' ' • •• # '- -'1 r · • - • ' '• · · '- · '• '· · • c· • ·•·7 · ' · Did you ever heai of anythino called the oranch Task · Force within the Hes tern Hemisphere - 2 · ·or Gottlieb - 1 am sorry - not by that tci r 1 C I I ask rorc9 0 E was a term associated with this whole Castro period t _ i 5 Do you remember J C King Mr diGenova I or Gottlieb Yes · 6 Hho was Chief of the Western llemisphere Mr diGenova -·1t1a in concerJ1 W_c _S Latin mericc' l c1nd South 1 r i -· Ar erica 9 Dr Gottlieb Yes 10 ii nr diGcnova 11 ·1 Ii I • '1 to you c1hout the r ccd to elirninc1te Fidel C 1 t ·o •I J - 12 'I 1 0 1 Dr Gottlieb l i•lr ciiGenov i l •i Do you ever rer iernber 1 C J inCJ spec' lking I have no rc1 c 1 r nc c or Lila t now Mr KinrJ hro 1c 1cc tht1t ubjcct a i t r ecting of th Br inch •l TasY Force on r i1rch 19 19 1 hich 1 i I the first recorded piece of i 1 0 · it1tion •1hic 1 we have on lG i assassint1tion conferences which have been rn itcri ilized I 1 · in the form of letters or some docu e ts le Do you ever remember t iscussing M 0 0 t 1c concept of ass is i i - 1 0 r tion vith V c cllow 1ata- cl r corse - ci·' arius llr Gottlieb cJ I - r diCcnova i•lr -tc - anus • v is for iny yeilr 1n In ncrlin he c ie ack and be came a spec r u1·ope i i cover • - e to i- r iel is for Cu t1 i3ay of Pigs and th• post-i3ay of i'igs c i ic c1ni he was wi 11 • · ----- - - _ -- ----- g 0 e 1 ' i I 2 7 0 ------- i 0 Do yov ever reme tber discussing i t -with him Dr Gottlieb No and did much of the work in that areu r -lr liGcnova I do not I am trying this to help you re c bcr hy 11 6 i siving you some nar es I know ire directly related to i and jl whose names appear during _the perioJ of_ time when the Inspec- 11 ·1 7 8 l • · 11 Do you remember ever tal in9 about i ·ith Tracy D irncs 1 Dr Gottlieb ii'I I tor General's report is talking about 11 I can't say when or here out l thin - me iory of t 1 it a '✓ g'Jc my uns1 er L o that woulcl be I have 1 11 • ' ' '·· • -· J 1-•·· r cliGcnov l Dr Cott l i c b a C ' -ir cl iGc o ·a - 1' Dr Cottlicb ' i 1-·ith this gencr il ubjcct • - c iCenuva co i - r n r c o L t 1 i eh r o 1- r diGe1 ov - e f • c o t t l i C • Ye Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 I Pot •··-•• - r ·•-• t · • 11 • ·1 1 - 4 _ # 1 - • ' - -1 _ I I I 111° loo ·- l - - • • - -- r-- --i • ' t• • · •• • 'f - - -• _ - •••• iF - i i - 4 - l f ·t ' - fi7 -tt i i 1t f tt'ir i ' i f f _ _ --- 11 1 - ri 'r f W -I ··· •' · - · ·• •1·•• 0 0 •• - - - --- '1 • @ 52 I 0 ' 57 l i'· 1-ir c iGe - ova You ere not in - 1 rolicy-rnati -- s positio - 0 2 t 3 8 c - s ·' C 0 r - ts and individuals w o wanted inforr ia ion conccrr ing s m ething u ·• J -- · I i t • - 1 i r lj f - · s 1 ould ho ve to initc1tc the genera tins of inforrn 1tion _ it 1 you · -ould they not i 1 Dr Gottlieb d Yes i 6 ·1 Ii they might have h id such an initial convcr si1 tion with I subordinc1te of r iine who was a speciiilist in this field The only exception I m ike to that is c1 Th 1l 1' J J - If i 1 iigl1 t ha 'IC fol lowed ur Ii t r· _ CJ lie r ight have co ie back to De and c 1id • he is to lkin J r · ' l I 'I ibout this r 1 iybc he had better go a 1d t U ' ii 1 • _ · c iCcnO'-' 'l -· r 1 frorn this side fro n lhc ilctuil l co -i t 1ct 1·1i th 1 J @ C - 1 i c thc1 yo ir r ie iory 1- 011lc ic ro1•1 •r ctice 1 1d r ro · l -ir ll r ic - 01 1ld hi1ve co - 1 i to yo 1 to t 11 1bout so 1ct 1in J l i e t J • • l t c t t i- - J 1 c iCcnt1va '01 • oulc oL - 1- •c jon to hi n 0 0 ll is it c i 10 y li t li ti 1 ' ' · V ci l ' JC' • I i1 lt 0 1 7Vt O C con c r - cc 1- i t l -- c c ' ur 1 · to i 3 • - i l ' '0 - - - - - · - -- -- ----- ·--- - - -s Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 rccc ·· ·· 'i ·7 ·f 'i· · -· ' - ' - ·· 1·· -· 1 • · 1 j S ° ' - #o-- _- ·r' o- • p _ Jt r· _ • --T ' - · - _ • • L _ ·· I • - - -- - __ • • • • • • • _ ·-- _ 1 · _ ··- · £ ---- -- _ - • •• • J • - ' - - ' _ _ _ · - - · _r· ET '· ···· · ·· - • ·· -- - _ --· - • ••• - •• • - •' - • - • -- -- · • 53 g 0 ii ' @ - I ·I 1 N i 1 _ d Gc c· a · hen you say 9c erc1l to ic - ha do you me lii I • i 1 0 •i 2 Gottl cb 11 li I n you i 5 rncc1n Dr i 6 I mean the problc of-9ctting r d of Castro - Mr liGcncva An l when you say gettin J rid of wh t do I' I Got tl ch don't know becc1u c I c1m c1 li tlc I i confused now as to hen they were talkincJ 1Jout incap citation j and 1vhcn they we c tc' lking about killing ilntl that sort of Ii 7 i o thinq Jut it could h i vc included either or both of those - -'-'- -'c-'-'-'- - - _ ' C - - - -- --- ' 2 __' - - s CJ i' r liGenov J ii On July 21 19G0 Let me 1 elp you then the headquartcr 5 sent to i• ii c iblc w ich was J pprovcd hy Mr ll 1rnc --1n l -ir Kine ·I 11 1 j 1·· i J G t111d - r lisscll 1 ich scid in its firs r 1 · 1 1r 1ph i'os' ibtc rcmov 1l to three leader C C 1i d icir •j 'jivc 1 • · C · J sc L·ious c onsic1cr 1tion it hcauqu irtcrs O v ' ll 1t is a ti1 1e fr me nc that ' uotc 1 5 I -0 1 n gency c lc cnt to t lc f_o I 1 ' 1 3 a 4 · - ·• C 0 C r 1 ·hcr h y ·ere tal kinq bout rcmovc1l 1 1d th c ble later 1 · · · - · - -· · ·Approved for Release 2022 02 01- C00095086 t 1 It might help to bdicate th 1t Dr 2 C 0 • ' testified ir front of the Cor u iil tee last week I ec you t ··· Mr Lc zncr l J I clidn' t thc -c 5 Mr diGenov 1 6 Mr Le zner You probably are not amiliar with all of I was not there lie testified that he had conversations i-·ith i-lr his testimony 9 inc 1pucitation of foreign le 1d·ers 9enerally 1ntl h it cc1p ibilitics I 10 l Gottlieb think SD h 1 d I 1 J • - l _ 0 11 11 Dr Gottlieb l nd th it would he in th JL 'j' ncr 11 - r diC nO ' J tir 1c '1 ' I' I fu ct that ould fit in et·fcct ly ith •I the initi 11 l 11· discussion in ·larch · i·ir 1 1- i Lcr ncr nd 1lso I c ucss cirectly prr c l inCJ t he July telegra you just spoke about - 11 ' l r c iGcnov 1 This us a few onths before there j · i1 1 w0 s a lot joirHJ on in the speci 11 CJ rou s i Dr o tlich LJ 0 0 · my rcr 1c ihr 1 1cc urnr 1c r I thin - I tcs ti icl tha-t to -t·he l cst of this first bric inc o i ell' th Jt h 1c u ci c· or l 1tc spri q wa n't it o 1560 1' u ' ·' 1 - r liGenovu r- · i· r --- -------·· Yes i1 1ron '-•-· •' - - - - · ere you resent Dr Co t i • b ------- --------- ·-- It is on the rcc r ------·-------- •Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095Q86' - i11 rjc c · 311J n 1 TuiJf·ig fx J NJrr rri s11 f f ' i 111 1 h V l_ - I am tryi to do this for a reason whic - is o clp you 11 J-- i '1 C 0 i ii 11 ii I about this topic of assassination Dr Gottlieb r ' r- ··-· ' • but I J I' 11 ' 1 Ii I' 1 ·- I I j '- II 1· ' 1 · J l ci with hit i l-lr ciGenova n l the rcuson I asked that i not bec iusc hi5 nnne D ' e rs 1 n the report Ii v remember any specific conversation i pc r so 1 be i g p r c s e n t i t but bcci'luse hi n 1 1c ari 1ie 1 - s the - i r ch 9 l 9 il me c t i 1 J 1- h i c 1 I 1lluticcl to rcsentl ' here J C J incJ in 1c Jrc inCJ t 1eir l irc_ c 1 0 0 C' can't say th t I ·I 0 I do associ ite 9 1 I urn confused about th it Ja c Esterline in my mi 1d with that pcriocl ar d with Cuha lJ the removal incapacitation 8 10 t O J C t Do ycu remember any conversations with Jake Esterline I 6 VI 2 Now this may seem like a silly que tion i 5 I C on' too far as ray from the srecifics of the rcror I t i r d if at all oossiblc to focus rn I t 1sk force ·hich was concerned within the 1 ency uith cover oric - itio 15 1q 1in t Cuba • as tol l ill about the pos iblc plilnS whic they were JOing to begin to develop and t 1at 7c clir iin ition CJUOte u 1Cjuotc in a pt1ck ige dc«l of the three inf u 1ous Cu an leaders 1-1c15 50 1et 1in j 1- 1ich iud to be gi· ·er L• Ii • st ccccd -- serious c o iclcr ition if a y 5Ort of covert pro ra 1 v ns to lj r' i i · 2 1 1d hi t is 1 ' 1 · I is ec it bcc u c ht - is t c -e C' 0 0 ' @ l n l this is to pinroint for you po-ssibl -· unythinCJ 1 0 - c0 that may 2 ssist you in remembering from so i - i ng th tt hus huppcncd 15 16 or 17 years ago Mr Jaron would you like to go throu9 sor 1e of those Ii arcus more specifically jl 5 1' 6 I i i' 7 would li - e to ask the doctor I Mr Jaron II va II 1· report Returning to the sar ie pa sas on pogc 12 it continues from the point i ierc ·lr oz ----· - diGcnova quoting to say s fi1r- i' S Gottlieb - no1-·s 11 I 'I I •• J this i c - - c· - r ' Ot l cyo -id the J J 2 ii 9 the I G i 10 1 thinr i would be fuircr ii r but I to the Doctor to osk them later 8 9 I have a courlc of other thin9s that ' 0 J ci jac just in ca c b lt Gottlieb 1s cer- ' - 1 i h di no I 1 t H rn is - ould h i vc hec -i c one if the O r tio h c r o - c th t J · f i1 r t Ca 1 you 1 · i convc -sil tion bct1· cen you -self i' td Rich J -ci- Jissc-1-1 1-· 1crc the 1 0 C t -ci' tmc -it of cigars or use tg 1inst ' '·' ·- __ r I C 1 ' -0 · 1s c isc isscr D Go t t ·' 1 i c b - · I' tell us inything 1bout the su s a -ice of ny Lh it Ii uissc 11 co cerning c ig Hs i·-' r 2 a r dn -•1 C1 l5C -- - --------·--------- - Ir t 1is iss •JC tr «t - ' · c just rcod • - · 2·'· t----' - i r· i• - - i- - - --- _ i' _ c ·--' - · ' -· - - 7 -0 r¾r @ t r' c ' - ° '''''· 0 0 0 '-' ' 1 -- - - fe_ ' _ _ 1Y - gc _r_s _trea ted -i- to _yot - knowlcdse for use as i i ns t N 0 ' Cast o C 0 Dr t Gottlieb I can't tel l now 1vhether I l- now this 1' bcc - i use of l hi ngs I have he ircl about in l he l ist fc1 weeks 5 through what you gave us to read 6 read 7 Dut I do l- now now th it cigars were prep irec l 8 1n independent recollection I think if I hadn't th 1 t my inswer to that probubly wo11 ld have been Mr Duron 9 Dut no Dut that is not 11 iving refreshc your recollection in the L 1st few weel- s by discussions with our ' t 1 f and with your lij ii iJ - 1 counsel I Jasecl on his reuding of these doc 11 11 nts do you 1 ivc i 1y further recollection of tz lks 1 •ith inyonc the je c · J L a _ - -- ibout rc ting ci J J rs l or ·cottlicl I c on' t hc1vc a -ecol lcction of tuU s r uch is I hilve a rccollr ction oE the GS cvc ts h ivi - CJ h ii c ic th t cisors 11crc prepared i·ir B iron 1d it was clear that thcs cisurs were 0 0 0 r · Ur Gottlieb u C Ur Gottlieb - ' CJO - r ro 1 2 - I can't tcsti y µrcci5cly s ii 1 I ar 1 h l ins trot blc pic - inq p rt what l h·h 1 t I i c1v be fore l rcoc those t 1in s 8 1 · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 -is to that no · ow a t g 0 0 ' thi lt s• ojcct do you not that would be h-clpful 1 0 ' 2 Mr Daron Yes Mr Lcnzncr I don't want to push it too fast 4 0 € j ' 11 t r- r Daron Defore we continue with the subject of trcatin0 1· I ·-····------···---···--···- 1 5 I'I the cigars which is picked I report a G up ···-·-····- I in a later section of the I C let's considered the p iragraph on il Je 13 of the I G report that you h ivc in front of you hciltlecl Dcpil l tory 7 Dr Gottlieb 5 I th nk this thir 9 WilS tafred c1bout I I I really just i pecific connectio with Castro -- 1- c h id t 11 - ccl about i t in 1 J' l q c n c - il 1 w i th i n Ts D 0 - -- J something and I don't re c er it in 1 i ·-- - ilS J • L 4 0 1 on g the pc or 1 c th n t 'j e t i nvo l vc d in i• • j •I I l •·' When you say talkc a cut it you ilrc Dr Go t t l i r b 7hc use of th0liur 1 salts c1s cc il tot i cs · 1-1 1 it i 1 Dr t'· thr context o use igc1inst o -e n lc idct·s Got t 1 icb C 0 'r coritc - t it - culd hove bcc i jt1 t ls i c c - il cc 1r1iquc u ci In other wrc s h h 1t I · '· 1 - • try ins - s- iy is th i t I h i• e ' • of iL licir c dcr tooJ to c 1vaililblc t• - - - I' TOP - · itj J' t i J iJ f•rsif 5' ' i i f j lfil'iE ii Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 Wfi ' iy i- ' f ' i - ·_ W51 - '-_· -r c'- · ' -· -- _ _ -_· t -'-'--' --l· 0 0 0 ' ' · e 1 0 II 2 s C mcmorand m of preparations for the use of this tcchni uc i 1 ag iinst C 1stro lI Dr Gottlieb I Mr Duron 6 11 Dr Gottlieb l· r Daron i t1 'i I 10 J - ·e •' 12 I· too rauch produces pur ily is 1 oulJ thuliu - 1 sults ever hc1vc been vicwecl as a means of I it ll r Ho I do not The right dosage causes dcpilation I 9 h Or against any other foreign leader s i ys 8 I do not 1 7 Do you have a memory indc cndcnt of this Daron II N 2 -1 - i Ii H 1 inc J i'lcitation oi l illi 1g of w person w s u1 posecl to l ein J 1 ii a • - ·i l·'i i 1I D - Gottlie_b i ot to 1 y l no1-1lcj Je i Ii'I J I i 1 ii 17 I 'i I 1 ' l 0 Dr ·I CotLlicb I 11 i just rcr 1e1 1L ct·in j now for ·hat- ever it is 'Ot'th eithcc thali1 - 1 oi - C Jlli 1m beinl ir ntio 1ecl i re 0 C C l - u C r - 1'h 1t co c t o ind -u it c oc r 't h 1vr 1nyt int J to do ·iith ' • 4 - _ C - · a 1s· cr to you - ' ucstion is clearly no I don't 2 - C 'Cr rc ci' bcr th 1liu bci 1 considered o an incc i uci ati j ' ent o c - than its us is a depilatory Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 p t pff C' 60 i- ' 0 0 0 'i ' e ' - itncss confers· with coun e_- · I 0 Ii 2 · l have been the beginning of thatkind of consideration of I this kin l of capability 'I 5 1 t I 6 I 8 hap cned with respect to Castro 1 r 10 I or Gottlieb No ·bccause the t o incidents I can't re- I l lte in time to c i ch other ll II J L ' · e ·- I-Ir Duron l ' L •I Let's turn to i po -tion th it -e •till mar Gottlieb E hihit no 0 that rn1 CJ 1 c-- ·-- --------· Mr ' 9 This hcts nothiny to do with Castro a ain DiGenova • · Do you remember th t 7 l · i nc 1 that could have gotten us first to look into thalium t - Hy counsel brought up the point that it may well have been that a discussion of this KCD operation may · C 0 Dr Gottlieb 2 o the I G report pa es 20 to 2G 1 · C The locu ent referred to w s i ii l •i J marked Gottlieb Exhibit No 1 1 i i H I· 1G ·I I for identification '7 1 I 1 1 l - 0 -i 'J 0 0 - I' ' w r - C 11 •• I 1 -- I' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 2 - Mr Daron 1- hy don't you vic• r those Dr Gottlieb ' 0 I ' ii C is il • - hole before we sturt discussin_g them l C 0 i i Dr Gottlieb i Mr diGenova Roselli II ll ii Discussion off the record I Whil t is the name on line 2 IJ 5 6 j I 1- r Daron Dack on the record · i II I 8 Dr Gottlieb be helpful to you in general is to consider as I 1 11 9 - have just been doing where I was in this time period You 1 1 rer ic 1ber I 1 ii had nothing originally to do with TSD 1 l i I-Ir DcJron 'i'his is curing the full ind e irly winter o J - t ' 1960 you ure saying l • 0 l _ • Dr Gottlieb l l t -- 0 th 1t time science advisor to Gottlieb Yes i nd I would have nothing wha tso- cvet· to clo with wh 1tevcr th c 1 ii 1 of co i -iland in TSO was 1 3 a 4 J · - C nd you were at Uc Ii a n l iii s s c 11 Dr Baron Yes · - hich · -1oulc have been fror 1 tho2 Chief of TSD to I'• inc 1hout the Chemicul Division 0 0 to if you are t ill who was 1t t hc Cher 1icc1l Divisio 1 to l - y TrcichlP t who worr e1 in th t Division f ' r ' •1 -· •· t r B 1ron i n l the Chief of the Oivision Lt t 1at ioi - 1-10ulc have bcc 1 Cornel it oosevelt App o ed for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 e N 0 N 2 0 period of tir ic · Dr Got tl i ch · · · Hhc1t co yo r ican by direct co 1tact I certainly had contact with them in connection with 5 6 the work I was doing llr Baron So thc1t if you receiv cl «n assignment from Richc1rcl Dissell to consider t c r ieanr of c 7 I i I I covert action against a foreign leader li e Castro means 1 Ii including the use of certc1in technical devices you r iight then - I 9 ••I 1 4 onsu l t - r l 8 i I 11 ' with Roo evel t or Gunn dr b Or Gott 1·1e h r iy point Tilt 1s 1 r i tryin J to piece J L e 12 in my mind during that period what y role was if any in l ' · connection 1vith this -· 0 c DiJ Disc ell in fc1ct say Gottlieb now here is I ·I •' I want you to flush it out go sec the ri ht people and so on 1 r I don't rcr C r ibcr thc1t ever hap2cninc I J ' J 0 N problem 1 ·I 1 i think what happcnet 1 17 11I is it wus I 0 0 c1 my briefing Disscll tile tir ic thut I r 1entioncd rnd i perhaps other time$ but this 1c1rticular tirne J i procccdcc is I remember it not th -ough r e ncl then he to cont i ct 1 •- ' Roosevelt i 2 _ other pco le tC' c ct this Con• '· r n 1 ron j c l 'Hl i_t When you refer to your hricfin of Bissell • 'rou arc cfcrr1n9 tot I1c genera l b r1cL 1 1g t ut you gave to Ji scll 1t his behest in he spring or s 7cr of 1960 concc - 1inc e Dr Gottli8 J i- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 1f ff f r' ttf· g · l e N X- r nar n 2 4 C t - I _ _ I certainly waulc l-have in the cour le of such a briefing ncntioned tec niques Jike that nut certainly part of that briefing and provably in response t to questions or discussion the topic would have come up l how do you gc this 5tuff to the in liviclu 11 I 1 1 1 12 · i- r J i ron 4 · hen you 5 1 y techniques li e that you me 1 1 that you would h vc discus cd with nisscll various technic l 0 • l 1 i ieans of inc ipc' lcitating or killing a forei p1 leader i i ' I Dr Gottlieb Ii -i I Yes although I an vying ag iin s cci fically rer 1er 1ber cigurs coming up lr d iGcnova ' i I tlon' t They r iay hove Do you remember anything cor ing up Do you rcrnc1 lbcr uny specific neons thilt were discusscri ·- · · · • I don't remember the cigar5 I J • • I don't rcr ienbcr t lking about cigars Dr Gottlieb I C • orientation o a foreign leader 9 I' ' i I__- cigars with r 2tcrials that could either produce dc ith or di5- I 6 I tIi I 5 C would you h ve discussed with hie techniques like conlaminating' J 0 - - ' 0 V -- - · · _- ' nd when you gave nissell th t bricfinq target l N 1- ' 0 - 0 0 N 1i u ci -· nr Gottlieb 1- y rc crel n ·ance - ho cvcr it hilpj C H cl -- and I c i ' t re - ·· ber ho it h irpcnec 1 -- is that I c_ ut soneho• -1 to be uwarc sr cc · ·- 1 3 a - C han l either by a convers tion with Ol or Roosevelt even although I don't re ic bcr s ecific illy w 10 · it I s ibout theil ' otulisn oxin b i 1g cpared Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 · ·c R fr If f ' 1 ' tt f _ · - '_Jt - ---- -- ·- -- 0 0 0 -- --- · _64 ·- ' 1 I u cting specifically in u stuff can't • • N 0 ' 2 C l I Bissell think I 11o1 su id 5 Ii that is going to follow th -- crtainly didn't have 11 e ij 1_1_' i ll il J • 0 in this c ir 1c either durinCJ these last fc• 1 eci s hen I Dy the cor ittee i Or Gottlieb 1 3 a 4 j1 1 · · l ' lJ Yes -- hut it i s s involvcr ent c -i it I Jr 1 1 · h 1ve occn r 1cc p i· y to some of this cliscussio 1 Duron of Gunn's being involved Dr Gottlieb '· ' 1 and -- -Mr -Bu ron '· ni rt 'i l that 1 cre involved in treating cig irs with botulinum toxin lC look Gottlieb I Wu nt to derend uron you as the fello1 · mission 1 9 ' whole t thing bec iuse I would remer ber that thin' il ½- ---c · _ - 1- e 1 I 13 4 • Jl w2 sn 1 • know I cu pacity fo Dissell I I I rc c ib r Jc i n s a w r c o f tlr n iron nd 1 ·hat do you rc1 cr 1t e 11Jout involvement i this schcr e D i • 0 0 0 Gottlieb to s y 1r -iy Jc ci J- i rs u Only th 1t botuli iu i -- nd I was gol n j were invol·Jed but cert inl - botulinw ci c C 2i i I e · ··-· Ir J 1ron i ncJ you rcr 1cr ber it is J in- i schc c c ilcuL itc J to Jcoducc t e ue ith of 1- hoe' 'cr sr oked tr osc cig ir Dr Gottlieb Ye Or cv n n t thos isars 1 n his outh - Approved-for Release 2022 02 01 C0-0095086 1 7 '1 · 5 - 1 M - 3 -on · Ji l 0 1' nd were you a· are at that time that these - -- · _· - - · - - ·• · · · --- - - - • were beinc -epo red for use against Castro _ ·- -__-- _ - - 0 f · - l ould the order to trc 1 t cigars in this · · ·•·· fro1n Richard Bissell manner have come to Gunn 6r 1J Baron I don't renlly know that D - • Got tl i c b ------- - - ------ -·-··•--------- -- ' I 8 i 10 - Daron think it 1v0uld help us I Dccause I iiol 1 you would qualify in this situntion as an expert in Ii tile C 1i1 ln O 1 I If ' e don't thinY- it woi ld helr you if I speculated on it 1 ould it i' I 9 l nd I of cor 11and 1 thil t terms o time ' ll ri ht Ge t 1 i c b i'Ot t thinl- 1-1ill Libel this clc irly speculatio 1 and not 1y I · - -· l ' I · _•t l i s ieci ic knowledge I 1 oulct thin the H - y the r iuttcr 1 oulc 1-1or ·I at lc ist in the initial instuncc validated Ois cll' s request to 1 3 aj 4 _ · · Hoose• elt · · ould hove im that laviny e cJo 1e r ic ht huvc 1 od ed ciirec ly a -ou ci the t ·o o ' t 1cr 1 1nd cical Hith the t i force rco ilc if th it is 1 ·hc it ti1ey · ere cJiled then ' 0 C C i· r 1 · 1 i -on The t isk or c - ere i1eorlc who 1- c -c ru 1n _ 0 Dr Go tlicb Ye Jut it least in the first instance -- 101-1 this is spec 11 LH i ve e · sure bccnuse I Wi S not in TSO at the t i - ic and I i r not but I cu 1' t believe it 1- ould h 1vc 12 ri -ic 1cc iny oth- r - --- - - - - - - · - - · -- -i_ti_ ' - - -·11 i t -Roos·evC l t Wo 11-d -h 5vC -bCCn Con t c·t·c·cr·-b y' I31 sscl 1 ---·--- ·- 2 - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 r- t7 ttt I 66 that ' @ I C 0 I f in tercs ted in · c ind I · --· · -· · · I-ii rco _ lc arc I l · · I I I 6 7 Mr Daron ·• • - · ·- ying ·a ay from spccul ion now to your - Dr Gottlieb 1-lr Daron 9 - p 1r 1tion of th sc cig 1rs or the procur cr c 1t of the cigurs Ii ll or opcr tion l pur poses l - J l Cott l i cl I c in ccrt inly 1 d rinitcly r ot I i i · ii ha v c to i t 1 J t l 1 t i t hl h cc n t hi lo r 1i fy 1 CJ o Ju t I h iv c ·I C 1 c - c1j _ ol11 cly 1 r r10 r- r 1cr br 1 1cc ll i 0 n 0 n r l j C th 1t of 2J O f 'It ull t h C I c r ' 0 r t t hC V iH i O l t· r ecoll 2ction of f ch in - ho - oul i he She ficld Et 1• u rc s j 1 r ere you involved in ' l ty way in the pre- 'I J' I II I 0 I do not 1n J ii l - - ' llc d of the O icc of cct rit y at th it oi it 1nc P ooscvclt I i 1 d u i i s c 11 1 r c t is cu d 0 0 0 '-' C C 0 h' re pc cu l i ti v_i 1 r x t i J o ou t i c t hr ou j1l l ooscvel t ' ' OU ci ii - o co rH 1t th 1t ti1 1c you s id '1 1 ordc s for l 11 -101- _ c ri ' • i -· to the l b tcc n icic1 1s i Do you h 1vc 2 ny r101 lcd9c of hc iclc f 1' - a -c s' '- in opc -utions 1' - ··-- I I cigc1rs I c own mer or y -do you· havc u ny_ owlcdgc_of t c source of th0 · i 8 this c ning to prepare this aterial ·• le- this is what _ tcll 1 J you th i t you hc 1 ·- - r y authority_ thr-oucJh Bissell to ·00 ahc id t _th 1' 5 I '1 1r 1 - _ JQK - --- - -- --·c · r - Got -l'i cb HOA C tt -- ll l_ _____ _ · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086- i 1vol· 1 - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - 2 0 f · _·· · -· ·- - - - - - - - _ · - think· I In fact I read th °f - i - the nc ·spapi rs so - icti1 1c • ·· ·- -· I ago 5 And I _' ' J tir remember being surp ised that E wards was in- vol vcd 6 Mr D i ron Turning 1ovr •a•• • _t_o the la Jt pwragrwph on page - ---- -- - _ - · 7 I 2 J the -cport refers to noosc Yc C- s 7TI mcrr- ry tlrat fou- r 8 - _ L' i 9 C · e C I l _ _ ' 0 1 'I 1 1- ___ l u - iber one sor icthin J highly toxic sue cis shellfish poison 11 nd I nuGLler t1 o bacteri 11 m 1terial in licp it l form I Ii -- -- _ _ - - - - _ -' ·-- --·· considered - 10 1I I j l ' - possible approaches for killing Custro by tcc nical means were lj I C l 1 i nd nu 1ber three bacteri i_J treat nent uf il cir i rcttc cH· I cig 1r 1 Q 'L -- Iij 1c nu ber four l t 1' I i nd then nooscvelt ·cnt on to rcr icmbc - us best he could a ha kcrchic trcc 1tcd with bactcri 1 I•I t 1 · ii li ' ' tlicit the decision as to use bacteriu in lir ui l the fi ict thut forr i dc spite as h'C sec i i the rest oE the cct1ort pills t·tcr0 ·• J subscquc 1tly the s s ancc that Do you hc1ve iny process h' LS 1 ctuall clcvclopcd recollection obout this dcr ision-1 1 1l-- i i the ci9hing of these iltcrnc iti vc e tns of 1ovin J aqainst C 1stro · D - Gottlieb i1L solutcly none ' - ic1ron e you p 1 -ty to 1r y t iscussior s --- -- - th s' t ---nc 1° 'fs of- ct-in I Ji' l-in-s t '-' - - Cus tro Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086' oE 1 rl ' ' to in a briefing riu2 lify it by SJ yi is 2 C 0 the o ic I described to i been entio -ied but never in _ter is of a srccific turgct '• Mr 5 me give you a moment to review 6 0l SC lSSl On· 8 Ii 9 0 Mr C 10 ' c- 11 - Dc1c% on the record mc t or poiso -1 rills for 0 1 I 1 ch 1nce to rcvic'r report do you hc1vr any recollecti i i ic c Je iclent of this section of the I G --· - ·-· 1 1•I Duron 0 this section of the I G li j J those p iges which refer to the Dr Gottlieb now th0t you hove ha l G let development of raison rills 7 I Turning now to puge3 four through 2G D 1ron SC re ort of the develop- iJ CJi linst c str o I ' c 11 ·I C I D i • Go t t l i eh These detil ils t 1 i t c1re 1cntio ed here h id nothing to do with c1nd don't have an inderen lcnt rl' col- ·ii C _ i lcctio 1 of i 1· 1 L 1 --- put r lC nd I note here ever in one i lc1ce th i t in touch -1ith - e -1c1 rds 2nd I - u sec it sc1ys r er c nd I 1 1 - ' 1 11 ive no recollectio 1 o bei -ig involved 1cre 2 nc I h we no l °' ' reollcction now 0 0 0 u ci c C 2· ' I tir l 1ron 1 sic ie f ror 1 the cr t 1ils t - 1' arc rnc -itio c- l hc e clo you h ivo c1ny kno lcd JC of - 1 i ills the c1c·1clofJC Cnt of poiso 1 l l £ • I for use c11_jc1inst Ct1str o nr Go t t l i c b - o I do iot ' e '- ' ' -' r 3 lJ Oi · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - - -- -· _ • -- • - - __ '----- pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ---- 69 @ Dr - • 0 2 tlr Daron 0 - say raison pills I v i usinq a rathc - 9ross ordinary rhrasC fo t -Y pill ' Dr Gottlieb 6 lr 7 Mr 3aro Lcnzncr Sure absolutely l·lhat was that l ist ciuc stion I just 1 ·antcd to r ar e urc that ' 'hen I 1-rnuld' I I I o cover 1 ny more technical description for a pill that would 9 I cc 1 1 c- c rotcntinlly lcthv l or incnpacit 1tinq •f ll C i He diGcnovv ciucstion on page 2G Dr Gottlieb II J e thut 1-rould be riotcnti - i lly_ lcthv 17 5 8 r · l - - ' _ I do not · · l _'' 1 n i sort of n tool up on what we 1 Gunn' s notes record th it his lilst action on the opcr - C l 15 I t· 16 1' tiun c ir ie on 10 February 1961 hen he put Gottlie in touch I Ii I i t h l· c h- n rd s Gottlieb hns no recollection of bcinq involvcci I J · - an im n cssion th i t is surported by Dizsell Hho states that J Gottlicb's assi Jnr ic its h'ct·c of different n iturc ' ·i 1c n it recite th it yo r c1ssisn e s 1 •crc of i ' I• I 1rcv i ously - 1Z1 · tu re - J r th it our co 1cc 1 w -c o iore _Jenc -al r o t 1 i c i 1 r ins out r3 1i 1 - ---- --- ----- I o · v 35 t tion 1-'ot1lcl b tl it he • op0r itior c n only issunc - -- --_ '----- - --------- -- ·--·---- -- ---- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 -· - - - - -- - - - - - ___-- _ _ t _ ___ _-- · - - pprove_d for Release 022 02 01_ C000 5086 0 · 2 Dr 0 Gottlie i He Si id that · r 5 D i ron l·lcre you ever pt t i -i touch with Sheffield rncans for action against a foreign leader 7 Dr Gottlieb tlr ' 9 co 11'· c- ·' J l··'' G J Daron Never Do you have any idea v hu t P 'f' c·unn 's notes 1-·ould have been referring to when they recorded the fact that c i nn i ut you in touch with Shicfficld Edward '· c Dr Gottlieb • i c 1-- •ith 0 C · didn't 2 d I cun only Edwards to discuss or plan the use or dcvelor cnt of tcchnicul 6 -· I conjecture I 2 c - l C __ - I c J n on l y s c cu l a t e t Ii i t h c i s con f u s i r s iioevcr it was in TSO th- i he 1-- ·us Uccc1usc by the tir c this in pection rerort h ipt c - eJ I wc1s already Chief of TSO anJ had been Deputy Chief for four years J nc I can sec here he would 1ssociatc y name with TSD l --- ·Ir U 1ro 1 l • - section of the I G report in reference to the testi g of these l-·· 0 c- ' J The let iils that arc discussed in t -iis I poison pills on CJUincil piCJS nnd 1 on eys arc rc1ther vivid de- •• tails th -it I f you hvcl any involvement with it - · think mic ht brinCJ t1bo t a recollection -· Iic1ving rend thi t ocu cnt do you -invc uny refres 1cd n oi- - - lection about the tcstinCJ or dcvclo e -it of such pills •· l - - Dr Gottlic6 r·was sinply ct aware of thv ·Ir lla ron Do you h ivc uny k 10• 1 ledge of in Giancun ' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - ··--·· --- - •• pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009508 of an opinion of Sam Giancana about the a lvisability r of a _ ccrtuin technique of getting rid of a foreign leader to the CIA or to CI lab technicians 6 7 Gottlieb Mr naron 8 i I i C' do not ap Jurently told somebody at the CI that he didn't think i c--- ' 11 fireurms wus u good 1 j i pills idcai and he recommcn lc l the use of 'I c--· c __ i J ' l - e Dr Gottlieb r- Duron I hove no such recollection II '- l · Uc i 11 tu kc a brca l ec c s C · L 11 - r 'L• Dr Daron JacJ on t 1c rcco -d Dr Gottlieb while I 1 that you thought ihchan 1 Bissell i 1 referring to the fact i ·- we ere o f the rcco-ctl 1ou r 1cntio 1eJ 1· that this cigar scheme would ·l· zivc heen-outsi le the pu ru r 1etcrs •i oE your 1ssi Jnr 1cnts at t wt tir c 0 might h 1ve been refcrrin 0 0 u ci to sor ctlling other th u-1 your assisnrncnt aCJu inst Lumu 1ba Yes Dr Gottlieb Ii i ncl th t v1ould have to l1 0 th 1t 1- as u later thought I had • ith u 1- hole series of assignr 1ents - rather major ones that I had ha ing nothing to lo with this ·r area and my role as his scientific advisor •t r diGenova i m1 indeed huving nothiny to tlo h'ith tlw • · · ··· ···16 REt················ Approved for Release -i622 02 01 C0009508 frequency power of Radio-Free Europe which would be a non- C 0 personal type of technological development 5 Dr Gottlieb 6 Mr Daron I 9 -· I • - - -' - To finish with this exhibit we have been ·connection with the Castro opercJ tion l eing run out of the I a- Cii 1 - • ••• I G report the name of Santos Trafficante hns come up in 8 Do you huve uny knowledge of any connection lictv1ccn Silnlc I • dealing with without even reference to specific parts of the 7 0 night · l1 J Trafficantc and the CIA l s a r zitte1 of act Dr Col t 1 i e b 0 right now is the Cit ' Cl CJ tir c I have he 1rJ of that nar 1c •lr L i 17 1 you that Trafficante was criminal syndicate in l r ericcJ and to huvc gur bling interests in lnvana does that bring· bud any -r emory of his involvc icnt 1 in an operation against Fidel Castro Dr Gottlich _ ' · ' G 2 t' r D iron I I w r 1i l n ment of a I 2 0 d 'i - the involveDo you hi Ve any knm l cdye o I rer cmbcr reading his name in an c1 ccount in either Ti1 1e or c1-1swcck in the last scvcrnl r 1onth rnd that is the only tir 1e I ha· c ever seen it 0 To me nor e hat soever Castro na icd Varonct in any operation a Ja in t or Gottlieb • u ullcgecl to be connected ·ith the ' u c If I refreshed your recollection by tclliny IIi H' 0 1aro 1 ---- pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 g 0 ' ' C 0 € 73 Mr Daron 1 Do you have any knowledge of the involve- 2 ment of Tony Varona in a CIA connected matter against · Castro -· 11 -· · · - Dr Gottlieb I ---· ·---- have no recollection of that ________ · · ·· --' -'-· · • ••· '__ - ·_ • ___ _ · __ __ · · - · · 5 ·· - - ····Mr - Daron- · -- Did you ever talk with Hobert Maheu or 6 John Roselli in connection with an operation ugainst Castro ·· - ---- - - 7 - - - -· -· I Dr Gottlieb I never did 13 I Mr Daron Here you aw 1re that Maheu w 1 i involved with g the Agency in the early sixties in an operation against Castro I 10 I 'I Dr Gottlieb will ho ve to rephra c th 1t question I i _ ' ·• l1 J C· • a 1 Ii ·I _ M - Baro i aware in the early sixties Yes Dr Gottlieb 1 - 1 - am hearing was I 1 1 i ✓-· because I 1 11 i until I I wasn't aware then and I wasn't aware re 1cl his name in the public r 1ediu that he was connected I - ·1 1 'iI• with this operation 1I C l I LI I 1 r ·- -'- I 1· i·ir 11 I ll Or Gottlieb 0 0 C Mr Duron Die you hove any nowlcdCJe in the curly i - - 1 tics of John Roselli's involvement in a CIA nlot a9ainst Cas- i w ci Yes I i 1 Buron l ncl that ould have b'ecn recently tro • C ' '- J ii w ' G1 1 Dr Gottl icb 1-lr I3aron I did not Do you know Jim O'Connell who was a CIA I - · 2· ••-- ' I officer in the Office of Security of the CIA nt this period o ' time n' •I Dr Gottlieb r '--' There is u con us10 1 there bccuuse it T Trt f t '' 1 - ' ' g 0 just so happens that A J Jim O'Conne1i·-- and it could have 1 ' ' been the same fellow 2 2 - - · ' When you say I knew - -·· ·- · Jim O'Connell I knew Jim O Connell very-well - - - · ·- Mr diGenova - I don't think- they were the same 6 1 Dr Gottlieb No he never would have been named I 8 iI 9 nig Jim Ile wasn't that kind I remember him ha ving a big wife who ran him ragged 1011 Mr diGenova That is not the Jim O'Connell to which you I Dr Gottlieb It must have been two different people i J ii ' L ·- C - I was later an security officer of TSO 5 0 -- or not it was the one that you say 4 C--· _ _v • And I would have to check as to whether after this period C 0 € ' -· · - -- 0 N refer i 1 'a C Were you aware in the early sixties of any C connection between a CIA officer named Jim O'Connell C'' and a plot to assassinate Castro Dr Gottlieb -lr Da ran M 0 0 Absolutely not Do you have any knowledge relating to the development of a pencil designed as a concealment device for 0 u 0 c lelivcrinq riills to Cuba i 2J Dr Gottlieb I do not Mr Baron Let's move then to a portion o the I G w vi report th it c will call Gottlieb Exhibit •1 which is headed - Schemes i 1 Early 1963 anc 1 r begins on pa Je 75 o the I G • r t report and continues to page 77 of the I C report -- --r----- - ··---- -- ------ ------ -- ----------· ------------- --·--------· Ii T ET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 8 _l we will 1 i 0 N turn to the 2 G The document referred to was C 0 t marked Gottlieb Exhibit No 3 't - - •· • • -• ·1 · ·-- ' for identification· 5 · • 6 7 E3 'J r c- 10 - ' C_ • I I l I I I J ii 12 ·I' I i 0 ' 1 q 1 C ii C• -- 1 l f lC __ i1 _ 17 lu j· II ii 11 I it I' ti ' 'C 0 0 10 u 0 2 iq i I 2 j 1 ' ' _ 1 ii i e r · _ L · ---- ------·-------- -- - --- - - - - ·- - - - - - -·-· - I· Ii 'I I• TOP iEcRET that theri Mr Lenzner Can 1 • · - _ N 0 - N · -· I ' • · • - •• • - - ·_ _ _ _ _ _ ·- · · · ·- •· • 2 Mr Daron Yes 3 Discussion off the record 'i Mr Daron ·_ - V C 0 I G report that deal with a plan to trec1t a skindiving suit 5 6 I11 with a fungus that would produce a disabling and chronic skin 7 i disease called Mcdra and to contaminate the breathing appara- 11 tus of the skindiving suit with tuberculc hacilli 8 i Ii I - 9 Ci 1 c· I 1 J 1 ·- • r· J • 0 1 cco nlint to S id 1ey Gottl icb this scheme prog resscd 1 q 'i And then this continues later on 11 j Gottl icb docs not reme bc what ca ic of th' schc ie or C ' i i·s C wlla t j i I 10 t1 to the point of u ctually buying a diving suit ind readying it for deliver '- 1 'J c· The I G report says II I Ii 1 J • You have just read pages 75 arid 76 of the h 1f ' 1cncd to the scub i suit C in you c 1c l l anything to the record about the kinds of '1 n 17 Ii prepc 1ratio 1s that were made to deliver this diving suit to l ' Fidel Cc 1stro 0 r Gott 1 i e b 0 ' « l If I hadn't read this and hca d a little 'J ci bit about it from r iy counsel before -- there is this funny r C ·1 c- kind of a block in memory -- I would have said that I didn't r 1 _ 2 - know an thing about it _ remembrance of it -• Ii• I i And I certainly now have no other lr ciiGenova Do you rt met be telling the Insi cctor General this in 1967 ----- i -------·--- - ---------·---------- ------ ------------- 1 I Dr Gottlieb _Yes I do nciw I · _ - '_ · •· do ncl I rer ic - bc r • @ 0 having a discussion wi 1 hir about it ·· id I ar 1 sure at tr at --- · · · - - time I t ld him cveryt ing I knew abou it i lt the time 2 __ •' 0 ··-•· · And the only thing that has huppencd sinco then is an erosion of even thi l t r 1er ory s l 7 6 I 7 II 8 II - · ·· Dr Gottlieb h G report Specifically no I could o 1ly srccula e' tb4 L-th Ls_h' ls_p_r_ob_ab_Lv di__s___cussed with r ic by people who orkcd l 'C So can youbring back uny part of the basis for those s ta temen ts in -----9J C'-· Mr Daron ·· · ·- -- - -- - • - · ·· ··_ ·_ - · in TS D and that fros hat they said thccc as a ct ua lly a -- - a• I' 0 I l J l e '--·· ' - t Ii ' 1 D - IIi 1-i 1 ' 1 0 j L 1 J And l Jy rc idyin J it for delivery I lo ' t ether th it mc i ns it w s i ctually clustcd 11th u fungus o ot I just couldn't testify as to th it Mr Did you discuss this sc icmc - ith Dcsr iond Duron • · J 1 q fit - Gcrulc l - 11 1 · · I I De Gottlieb I don't have a srccific memory now o discussing it with Fit Geralcl 0 C _ · - •' ' c' ' - i·lr t• _ r iish t huVC Du t I don I t h 1vc 13 1ron Diel you liscuss it wit S 1m Ital ern Dr Gottlieb I don't rer 1cmber that Mr J a 4r I th it mer iory now I c e c·1cn i now no - 'I ii a uit brot ht U iron 1 nd do you h i vc uny r icrnory of discussing t 1i schcr ic - i th Dr ottlicb 10 I h i vc no r 1c1 1ory 0f th it I t may L · 1 3fa 4 be th tt sor ' chody th it - wrked for me l i k e _ die - - · · I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 0 0 0 1 0 2 Mr 0 f- Daro i Do_you remember discus ' lin J this scher 1 wi h I anyone in pa - ticul ar u t 1 Go tlicb -Dr 5 I didn't myself 7 I h 1d work on _-- - · I c 1 c- i 9 · -' 3taJ 4• i C 16 Mr I I l t that time I guess I 1vus - s se- -- - c--c Duron t·lould you ussur ic that your l- nowled9c of this Dr Gottlieb I scher ie curne fror i 1 c iI y - t i _''t _ cmb ce is that I just surcrvisory c 1 1acity il CI o i o nd oint is thut ____ ____ -- -- - a r p-ut-y Ghic-r---ocf -rs-n- 1 I the · -- · - -· · •· That wo11ld be in nssumptio i I h ivc no J 1 3£ eci ic n c mory 1 ii C r 1 ' I 1 I j I I l C i i 1 3 a 4h r i C i 1 · 1 11 lj i S i 1 U i V J i ro i i i1 j S ll i Dut th it - oulc be 1 c ood ssu i tio 1 l·lho 1 1s specificully ussisnet to c ' velor Dr Gottlieb I a uguin issur iiny I co i' t reDer iber s cific illy but it might ell have bee Mr Unron Would tubercule bucilli be lethal or potenti il y '' leth il if 1c Jministered to i breathinq il parc1tus Dr- 1 ' ' Gottlieb I-Jell they woulu be lethal only in u ci 'l ··· the sense 0r potentL1lly leth l I I · OU lcl thbl- the person ccntracted TB and died fror 1 it ' 1 i 1tibiotics tuberculosis is not ofte 1 you catch it e ir l ✓ ' 0 - 4 • 1• if ' ·ihat I mc« 111 i ' it is in ir 1 on nt poi nt bec 1use i i these days of effective i I t 0 0 C l Hr Buron i i very bc1c diseuse if lr 10s t everybody gc ts curee Would the treatment of a s in diving suit - ----ii------------------i f i's• -t · - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 f ff11fiif_ t j ff11iP' trr --- - J i · -fi • ' _ - • t --- - · -_ - - - - - - - t ' - c- · -_· · -·-· · ·-_ in ½1 in this r ianncr 0 2 capaci tat ion hav2 a f t- - -d_ _t c _ - inction C · cei C o as- a O ii ha blC ci u·i _ - - -- s • in divi ig scit Dr Gottlieb 7 · · ··•·• · •· · I of n- -·c·' hi S us i S C - In this case for whatever i t is worth -· I would call this 2 incapacitation effort _ - - ·_ - · - l-lr Daron n2 her than an assassination effort I G 7 i ® 0 Dccause you would be that anybody 1 ould cie from ilnything like thut except us in the case of Mc off chance something iJ e a misdiil9nosis of 1-1h it he h ict Daron i o you hove iny recollection is to w y the I I 2 2 a - 9 J J · so terribly unsure -- to me it would only be an r -' 8 11 -·- Dr Gottlieb Yes definitely 10 I c-·· _ 1 ' 11 i - · 1 · 0 15 I I skin diving plot di •t ove forwilrd Dr Gottlie one e cc pt ha t I read he re I hi v e no in lepen ent recollc ion Mr Daron Let's t1 rn then to page 77 of the rei ort I ' G j I 1 · Ii1 L 1 -- 0 0 0 II' 15 I· j · · u ci c· 0 z e 0 - cc __cccc_c c__c__ - - - - 1 1 'I for the use of il knowledge of rliscu sions of or planning il boc Jy-tr i pe l seashell c' l _Juj-nst Castro Dr Gottlieb i·lr n 1 ron Abstolutely none 1-ie -c you awilre thu t Desr ion l it zGc ra ld ever contemplated such a scheme lj 2 1 Dr Gottlieb I was not You mean before n01 · I ---- keep cld ling thut - 2 1 5 -_- - -· Do you have I u I thut refers to i boc y-tr l I ed sec1shell I O' C lj· i·lr D iron hibit t o •1 Let's introduce then as Gottlic Ex- And it stc1rts on p ge 91 of the Inspector ------ll-----------Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 I I- - _- _- -• t ---- -- -- --- - -- -_ -- - pproved for Release __2022 02 01 C00095086 1 I 0 0 0 iG I l I ii 0 I c 0 2 I 1 I L 5 6 I 7 c · -ti---- -- - ------- i 9 C-· 18 C I 11 C1 J L · G • 0 C · 0 - _ li r-- 0 0 0 V c 0 C 0 2 2 H - -- ---- I ii Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 Dr Gottlieb I have read this Mr Daron Dr Gottlieb do you have any independent V 0 recollection of the developr ent of a poison pen that t pen equip ed with a hypoderr ic syringe for the injection of i poison for use against Fidel Castro C Dr Gottlieb 7 I do not I might cor unen t on some thing I r _c ac l i n-hc-re- -- -he·re--±· ---- 1 fercnce to un org i nizational unit Culled FID and there u mention of a workshop C·· was And I want to make it very cleur you rrobubly know it alrcady that wc1s a comrtctely different O' c 1' organiz i ticnal entity with a different mission than TSO it J C - J · 1 1- 1s not subordinated to TSD und it had nothing to • ith TS l Ci C it thi ti - c incl ll o htic no for ic il tic to 'iui f D is tll 1t 'I · 1 • Dr ottlieb Yes l ' ' · r ' sOI ieone in i i ron TSD So L1r as tlrnt roint joes I woulc r rcsL c 1-1ould h 1 ·e equ 11 c iccr - to the St 1ff D 1- od s - 0 g ' J Dr CC ttlic i -lot ciuotc Dr Cun 1 hc ici u rretty close routine 1- ·or ing rclationshi 1 1 3 a 4 -- 8 · T App oved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 0 0 0 '- G 0 0 t C LY 0 r-c_-- y '1 l J ' _ J L ·1 0 C c_ • I Mr t1 · -- - 1-lhat icl-stand for Mr uiGcnov i - u -iron Mr diGenov i 1 I just wanted to hear r r Gottlieb s iy it Dr Gottlich You 3rc absolutely right I wuntcd so so ' i I h l forc ottcn Out you ore i solutcly icJht poncnt of the foreign Intelligence st i Ef hou in ind ju i rters i com i rt ented ' · I' iln l put thc C for It was an o r ition inalysis very '· J 2 It v1 is a cor i- und for th it reason it was 'I on u staff that would • ' norr iully never h ve illlything li c th ' t t 'I · -· nr iJ Hon i crc you J • are o o evclo incnt of 0 · ·- -- n inscctici c c llcd nl i cklc i f 40 it the CIA for use against Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 pproved for REijease 2022 02 01 C00095086 2 quc1int ince with hc1s ore to do with my gordcn thon the CIA 0 f I is c1 commercial product I' problems with leaf hoppc s s have usec 1 it i If you ever ha l gardens you would have used i - So it is not an intclliCJence product · 6 Mr And we c you awc1re thnt it w is ever contc - naron plated for use against a hum in tar9et at the CIA 8 o· lr 10 1 ' - 'I C· lJ I e Dr- '_ 14 Gottlieb - ell I thinr there h is lJecn tei tir 1ony and I rcr ier iber something ibout it but not Ii C _ at the CI or use a9air st a hu an t irget l '' ' 1 i 1 l C Herc you aware that an instrument like o n iron poise pen equipred with a hypodcrr iic syrin9e as ever devcl 11 not • - a I ­ L · I Dr Gottlieb 9 i Jreut de i l illo not the one th i t as shown in these tele- it i f irt gun 1 a a 4r i being developed it vised he irings Q 5 ar ip Dietrich L-lG 1 Out thut beurs no relationship to what I reud here either o 7 1 I I Hi ' I this opcrution or this IJCn or a ythin J lir c that C 0 0 l ' ' i i'TI not sure that I' size oE a pc 1 • about the u ci i nct I ' ' '-- Ir l nro s I 1 - 'i s LJ pc nu t i t us u th i 1 • rer 1er 1 Je r Let's split the problem in t 'o then _ First were you aware of the development or use of u 1 - ' en e cqui9 1cd - ith ' hy odcrr iic syringe for iny pur JOSC it or Gottlieb --· - rr ET The ans ·c r TOP · - _ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 to h ivc to be rt - e r - N 0 i 1 r ientioncd which 2 Daron And now turni g to_ the dart gun that you _ · ' · - -- ·- · · ·- · · • · _i•- •• ' think ay have_bcen_ shaped like a pen I what was the_ purpose for which that was developed 0 t Dr Gottlieb That w2 s e -r a prc Jsurc or elcctricull I operated flcschctte projector - y _ - 5 I it would f - ·- u little -- the best wuy to In other words 6 df scribc it j_s is a little lrill fine sh rc l a micro lrill with a certain to be able to penetrate the sl- in And the case I r- ' J l - I l 9 thu t wc1s used r ios tly w is for deg s in our cu e l•J cap icitutins material to the doq ll 'rlllc tiler it 11 is camou f Ligcd c lS a pen but it w 1s ibout th it size to jCt so ic in- C - c J L' 0 _ l i c 1 it little 1 l ' far- ifielcl ·or i i ·h it you 1 -c tc1U ing c1bout Jut it is ·· enough -- in I 1 this co me on the record because I lG ten the mc1 tcrout -- and that has 17 clispl iycd pro inently on television in the press on the 1 · o cc il S i On Of t h C '_· rclution to the retention of these toxins I 1 ould like to cor cnt - and this m i t 1 - e ' I 0 J ncJ I don't even rer 1c1 ibe r u re c1 ecl h ive been loor in J for un orrortunity to ru thin it _ ill str iigll- to lo Hith i gun thc1t w is j' _ 0 0 0 C n J t C p b 1 i C h C J r in JS O f th i CO IT J i t t 5 CC in u a f· r - l _ J w It wasn't u very effective gun as it 1-lr ctiGenova 2 i I Got t1 ieb The cor ' ll1cn ' th 1 t felt very bad _· us I viewed th it I 1 zin t to r 1 l- e is th i t und j ur iculnrly Jadin ' th c n c x t ' C -J d i y s i s I s i11-1 h c 1 u b 1 i c i r i ' c t i t h J d no ec use 1 - _ ody 1ev nt it to c but it as such a Euntc lstic ml t c r iisrc1 rcscnt 1tion wus th it this I I JI - 3 -· • Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 -- - '- -_ -·•- 2-- t c fji i'- ·· -' - f' c· 1 c - s✓ f ' ii -i fi 1 ½' _ _ _- -- 0 r was a CI develo d 6r stiraul t6d- capon when in act it 2 Wi S 3 clearly so testified but_ that testimony got lost somehow and · ' - ' · _ c ·- _ i _ J tf Zif _'5 f ·i·• - · · stundard militu ry·weupon und Mr Senseney I · ------ 6 I Ii • covert wcopon which it wusn't I ---------- - Ii shellfish toxins II wu sn' t the cu SC J t ull 1 C J 0 l -- -- - - - sinisterly tied in with his And I want _to put on the record that that This was J military weapon developed for militziry objc_ctives thut they shared with us 1 1 1 ·c h 1ve ·I 1 o s i I I C - 1 I' f 1 I' 1'1 l he rc 1 • i s u ht i y s l rob 1 c n 1 n con 11 e c t i on 1 i t i overseas to set dogs out of the wuy 11 ·1 lG s be c i u s c radio opcra t ions ind other surreptitious neecl th t we hod L· they said it and 1- •e in f ict u cd it to test these dzirts on I _ l r- -- for hum in ossassinution pc - And so nehow specific lly poses l thinl- with most of the pc Jlic ports of it 1 us that the CI hud hod Comp Detrich develop his - ·i C c- _ - · ·3_- iff- · · · -- · - _ · · - 2 £ r - - - - 5 9 t· rcmer - r that 'oS exroscd to those telecusts or reucJing the press re- G - - -· - -- the impressio 1 thu t w is left I I I 7 - LJ - · r _- -- - J t i - - -J • _ · I - - --- •-• • · - 1 I l - - -··· --·- - --- u- 5 • c G CR ET·-- --- - --l · - · · --- · - ITO - ' 1 1 8JiZ flli ·s7r ' c ff J · •· •-·-- 'T ' ' r- - ·-- -•- - - - ·- So I ii I' I to sur v iorizc I just w lnt to put on the record t - l think it wos quite a r iisreprescntu tion to cast that weopon i 11 a CI 1 euron I' 12 ii M 0 0 u 0 i J_ l In he first place it is so uncovert i nd so weird J ct so stranc e loo ing it coul l never be uch a weu On 2 · 2 u ' Mr ii c2 I I appreciate your rutt in J th Jt on the reccrc To your knowlec lc_ e were uny kinds of dart gun ii ii 11 Dr Got licb ot to my owlcdc_ c I' 2 ever use a ainst humu n tar Jets by CI opcrativ s 2 -- ' _ ' n iro -i There l d c i l o f ct i s cu s s i o 1 o th u t during t 1 e Vie t nan war in spe i i- Il ti - H I L TOP rET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 I - ·- -- • -- - · --1 · · r - - 1· - •• • -- _ - - - _ • • ··· - · ·- - - _ - · -2 1 J -· c -·r · - - - - -- --- - - - •---- s - -·t- t --1 • - - _ - - -7 - -- -- B - '_ f I 0 0 '1 resrcct to l- nocl i 1g out ' r ot· killinc 1 but incanacitating - - - -·· - '- t Y f · s- S· -- -· · - ·- l C couriers who_were carrying what we had reason to believe were 2 - - - -r 2 -_ _ -- -- - - - t - • - · - Vie tCOng essages and the problem was to be able to knock the ·_ - - -- - _·- · i nd there out cnoush to capture them b not kill them r '· - as a 5 ··· -- f % - t ·'· _ · there was no·effective knockout capabil- i t was never used and G - _ ity developed 7 · -- - - --- da -t gun _which was the ·one depicted desc r ihed as a 1 1il i ta ry • ' ' _ - · -· Diiron Mr V _ · •t·f J ' rc-- ·f· discussion of this c s a vehicle · -- Dut to ny reraembrance _ I er 1n l·latio il 1-iac_ azincs subscque 1t to our hca ring or t his i ' '- smc ller fleschctte rojector t hc1 t you descti hec l ever di sc lssed Ii L - · l -_ iI 1 D - Go t t l i e Ne v e - to - - - y n 01-1 l c c l c c 1 11 i jl jector l G I Dr Gottlicl J I t i nk it v 'cJ S in the r2 se of ' i 0 I •I ya r d II 1-- · 1 ' or iethinc lil-' e reinembe r of the very be t o -ies th i t I that trou lc 'as t-h it the' · coul ln' t be - iccur itc Their biCJ t c h 11li tic o this little d -ill • - s so lic 1t nrl tho c 0 0 -1ere the ind of rrohle - - s ith it i r d I r i ·t be -1ro i J c1bout _ 'i 2 - the ' JO y ncs l· r Thi lt sounds like a long wa y d i Ge no v - i I - il s j us t go i n 'J to a s probler 1 • - ith some of those the fact thc1t it you -1asn' t the w i s very difficult to mainti lin a trnjectory an t 1at they ould actually spi n 0 '-- 2 ofE TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 _ - ___ · '-·· - - - -- --- pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ff ' - - i i J 'Ifr • •' A i g - - f - ·- - ET® J- 'tr- -- _ - • o'' ·i ' 1 --- - t lf i fi1 ' i ' 7 · • l 1 b Ex_ c_ t l Y i _ ·- 1 Gott i c 2 diGenova So that thcy wcre actually very useless - - - - --- t_ ·- ·· '· · -- · w u ons for c1nything over a very_ short distance j c • -_ H'O•· · · · Or I' Gottlieb Ex cpt·· r -a- c and this hus nothir J ' ' ' ' - ½ t to do with the Cil that there was a dcvelopment by the 5 · -- - 7 - ·- - · · ·- · t- fs f comp i ny D l s soc ia tes G -· · for· mi li ta ry purposes - not for the · •· - ' · 7 CIA of what they called flesch t e weupons thc' 'ic little projectiles fleschettcs V they were callinq l nd 1-1he ther it w is ever used or not -- I 1-1as given to understund th it they had c- 1 use incl cc ipubility over distc inces ibout like I SO '- •· - ·' y 1rd to send i1 sulvo of these thin JS mentioned and to get over t c J i iccuracy hy @ to llit you il huc shot effect wh rc one of thei '1 1 oul'd ll i· ·e lut - 1 1y ic I shoulc n' t lluvc put th 1t on the rcco C · lt 11 id 1 Jsolutclf nothing to do with CI 1 it wus i 1nilitary G I l r_ i Ir I i 11 iJ 1ro 1 1etur 1ing nOI· to this rortion of the I G l report th 1t dc ils with the devclopr icnt of a poison pen use HJ ii - st C i tro c id you ever discuss such · C ' ii 'ri l S u Jr Gottlieb I r ·• i ll ' I never c icJ fluro 1 Uid you ever discuss with i Dr Goctlie I never did I 11 I• •' · · - ' tcci1nicul supj Ort for o 1 r ltions aguinst Castro · 2 •' i project 1-1it 1 but I never discussed this with hir i ic 1 for - n IVr Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 r jf' 7 f fL' r f ' - T r - - - - ··- · ·· ·- · ' · · ' • - - _ 1 •· c · '- - · -• l·· ' ''' · o-£ ' · ' • v' - • '' ' _ r· -· l ' ' t- · ¼ ' _' 'j' • • · S ' • l fr • S f -'- jJ ' ' -c_--· ··-· ·· ' · _ ' _ ·_ - _· s f f - t 1 - ·_ _ · · C 0 11 hove D dG b o c I r Ii 5 I G I I 7 II rout in C tee h n i C 1 s u o 0 I-Ir Daron %itf c i ' tff2r Ji § i' 0 t o t Did •ou cv - --h°it ·' uch c liscussions with - h · - ri - -- - ercnt period of tirr c · · · · - f ij· -f°f i j '· _c - a CI case officer for a high-·ranking Cub in military officer i I I 7 4 7t-----8 1 -a w Y COf''7 - JS5 - --t'·nm-o ---iITT m Y·- t · ·- rr _ - r· --i - • -t - i'c'l' - -rc -- --- -L - ___ __ - ' · 0 t - i ·sr tr· -· 9 C r - - 010 7J L C• ·Ir 11 Daron J lt1 @ a unt i l ' _ -1 · Dr Gottlieb -- 6 t ' to 1 1 'r·cco 11 cc t ion 1 th c r 1 i I don't even ·_ _ here you aware that 1n the early sixties d - s i t i e s t h c C I i h a d u -i o pc r a t i o n a 1 co tuct i lh -•·-' Dr Gottlieb 1 C C ir 15 l J 1 C c i l not vho w 1s a high-rankin Cub in rnilitury Dc1ro 1 officer - ith access to C istro r Dr Gottlieb 17 Mr 1e 13 iron I die not ·iJ AS II 1 Yes n Dr Gottlieb Ho 0 0 0 l ' u 0 i• r G l I I 0 1 I just have a·cou lc of more ge -icral qucs- igainst Castro tec 1 iic il support for o eriltio -is io 1 s l i cl you e v c r h iv e d i s c u s s i o n s 1 i t tecl 1ic 1l r 1c 1ns t 1 1 ii Jh be used to ass issi 1 itc or incap ici l l te C stro C Or Gottlieb ot ibout C1stro Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 I'ff SF'c' ' ½t • · I 0 1 0 0 1 0 N 0 · N 1ra a 4 · I C- I 11 5 1 I I G I 1 3 a 4 ··_F · - ·· · --- __8 r '- I i 9 o· 10 1· l 0 L 'I 'I l ii J technicul devices ncJ m terial th i · -le have discussed toc J iy did you ha c -- ciict I you no1-1 o any o - er tcchnicul means th it 1 ere co 1si c -ecJ for use nsainst C stro to iss issinute o - incapacitate hi Dr • -tcJ S r iore I Gottiieb th i i I I do not In fc ct this rich vuriety thc 9ht 1-1as talked ibout le i'ir Baro I i'i - ciC enovu lr Baron Dr Go t lie b I have no further uestions ut this point 17 i' I H ' 1 0 0 0 N l u 0 c· ' 1 '- I ii '1 1 further questions will o off the record I 1-1ant to put on t e record ucfore we ch se ti1at I u ' -cciutc your lcttinCJ 1 1e t c u l Jrcc1 r It I ·1 2 1i u _ 2 '- _ ' huve no •' 20 0 ' I I· 0 hside from the vnrious •I l½ A __ i Duron ·- _ ii _ II · - · I J e Jlr I - t ngets Ir lJ don't have a specific recollection of talking about the _- - c ' •· qj 73 -f - ' as 1 1 · Liut I Discussion off the record Ir l· 1 - 1s·ell T 1e reco -c s rnlc reflect thut - r D icl- on the l lc iron -l 1ve co i 'lcted their part of 2 record ciGenov 1 ur d - Ir the c epo ition 11Hl h ive no· -· '· I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 Mux• 1ell The fner iorc inc um indi t that u CIA b en p ioacfied about CIA activities related to •• • • 7' 9 • •• And the officer when requested to respond c is C to CI zictivity by Do • fficiils lC· c· - to I evude l the ucstion t i c ' 'J e n c y u n c1 s us J c s t c d then t h u t i t m i sh t b c u s e f u 1 J c ' e 12 to set 11p on inf i il cor r iittee thzit could incluc e rejlresenta- J 7 tivc of the vur ous Cil comronents 1n o c c - L h i the e coulc 0 0 c J -- I ·1 l ' he 1 consistent pclicy of disclosure nJ so th it ol hcr inciivi u 11 1n t -ic roup could l- no· whut 1 is going 0 1 in this 1 J • 'J rti cuL r 1rc i of research interest I The r er to c ilso inclicutcs that c1n informal grouµ 'us I' 1n I · 0 0 0 the rocess o bcin J set up clo is nc • 1'1ilt I would li e you to if you co n ny qrou 1s such 1s the to tr 1 to rcc 111 u n t·tici10 e Ji·ouiJ t c1t '-''c1 continued or reconstituted c1t a -ot r d th 1L ti ic in 1955 i • Dr Gottlieb - - · I think the only thing I c in say there 1 2 0 r • -1 r1 t 1w·Jld be hcl lful • as I can't h 1ve a srccific r e iory of o nythint li e th lt hut t 1 it it 1-·oulc Jc so icthin 3 that ' Jc t lc ist i 7 the lJD and the TS J 1- •oulc i hc1vc tried very hc1rd tc TOP I I C security 1- 'Cu r ncss ·of __ l group ike that · · _ _ _ -_ · '_ 0 f ••• - l nd that would be including c hcr Geney r·y $j _t--· -· s components · · - • Dr Gottlieb No 6 I think i t '1bout 7 I E3 C'' 9 10 f7 11 '· - I 1 J - 0 '- I r iissed the whole thrust of it Mr l-L 1 - 1 cll It was done by our requcs t fro i DoD to ' I i CI officer Dut the Cih officer was concernc about consi tent scncy policy and suggested that there be a Co uni t tee wi t iin the 1 gcncy Dr Got lic I ar 1 ju st confused even by t c way this is l r· l ·' ·· Th 1t is 1- 1hc1t I r 1cant I C I I I ' the DoD ycu were talking 1 ii r J I 1 Jcncy Jrou 1 I a -i just confused by 1 -iat th H r 1can s I 1 l- • 1'' r 1'-l J Xh'C 11 In regard to the project t c operational I 17 11 0 0 0 f use of urUCJS thut you were involveu in and you di ffercntio -J earlier bct ccn P-1 and rtic okc Or Gottlieb Yes i v 0 · r - 1- r ia - 1 ell ·li' s there such '1 Co i tcc for those iroic · either in t --ic '1µproval process or in discussions of the ir c c -' of research that might take place to sur lcmcnt it or the _ tind of operational uses which r 1ight be m dc oE such rrodGc s Dr Go t t1 i e b Gide fro the r icho e Jroup Ir - a --wcll ' hut is correct Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ·· _ _ _ - - -4 --· -i - - wT- ' - - x __ -_ ·tP _ jf - i - - - t1·c -i · --- · · ' j 0 0 0 I 1 43Y tll i vtt ttjI S 2 · • ·• 92 0 _ -- n t - _ i - - _ -i ' - - Mr M 1 Hell - so_that_in Li ct in regard II 2 Dr Gottl eb Not to r y rer er ilirance I 1 - 'f s tf - ' · tf r -- t I With one-· · exception I a i just rcr ier 1ber ·-·• w We had in effect a research and levclo ent board 1 of this octivity and adc suggestions · · _ C were cJ' 'cJrc o course lJ ii 1 l 2 ii Ir c • e 11 ·I 0 - - o - - · · t 1ey hacl nothing to do with iny orcration Jl cJrplic itio 1s J people th Jt i d iir Jl _Deflores pulled to' ethcr 10 I ' ·t · - II II 9 r ___ Dr Gottlieb - I 8 0 author i c th I 6 i r • ' no grou outside of thc group that would have been required to II Ci Wc S - rf - ' t ·r - t the use of i r-1 by TSS-TSD to the·best'of your recollcctio - there 3 0 l • I - ' 1 - -t· '- '-' · • _ • - _ •' 1' I - • • I @ er t r1- i f t ·1_· - 1 Dr Gottlieb II I I ·This ts orou 1 l -i 1t time crio l I thin the rcsr n h o irc 1 it 1 • s ca 11 c d s t 1 r t e d i n 1 9 'j 2 o r 1 9 'j J 1 n ct co 1 t i n u cc o r th c 1 c - t ___ si or seven yeor ' 1 l 1 r ti3 - cll · hen did 1 t f' lirol OcFlorcs lcuvc the A Jcncy r i I• l ' ' if you rec J 11 1 or Gottlieb 1-' I rc illy h i ven't cle racr ior iy o t -iat Sonconc lir r Corny Roosevelt v ould r no· li it 1 · · i s th c r c a 1 y or J 1 1 i z 1 ti r - ·Ii th i t - c • 13enc- · o - affili0ted with the 1 Ge 1cy that succ ccdcd t -ic tc- • '- - • sc rch uo i n Dr Gottlieb Not s 'ccific 1lly l Jut 1 rcr icr ibr r any r• ' iscu sio 1s of the pros anc1 cor s of such 3o rJ J 0' ' 1 ----------··_u 1lv talking about in respect to 7SD's cJCtivitics _ ' I I' i Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 I 2 - - i ' · · -·-- tr 1 111 f i 1 li i t t1mf t s thGt the @ N 0 2 - I i1 und c l boa -d our cx ic -ie ce 'J 1 'I t that unli e the -tichoke t h e on c th i1 t 1 e h i v e be e n cJ i s cu s s i n J u s i n J rcco st i t• 1tcc i rt icho - e Cor u iittce c1s r ientinnccl i n the 1 iii t I j 1 s t sh01 ed you -- Dr Cottl·ieb I don't rcod this r icr io that - iy Out so ihcac l ii lG then 1 C· u derstand the mi -iul cs of the Committee or whut rp 1re11tl 1 wos a I r ic - o t o r- it 1- ·as - jj 1 ·- · --··- Is it fair to say l 1 jI 1 r il -- - -- - - -I - · _ · - - Co nrn i t t c e c i th c r ·1 J ulso a political gesture '' -_It mc1y mcir e some people hc1r ip 1 11 i I I your tcs ti - ony '- l i i i t so c 1- •oy of si i 1ly 8 l C• '-' OU 7 I Our exf er1cnc1 J ••• -- t - ·-·-1 ' ' - _ -- - - - I 9 C • · - ·uld f igurc but it doesn't do a r t ·' f · · - · · - t · · --_ ' · --- Mr ' c1xwell I just _wc1nt to mc1kc sur c that I · - · _- - - - _ _ -_ ·--- -· 6 · gesture as far as we were concerned baJcd on I s I'i _ 7 mo -c attcntion'an l hclo from ·such II e 1· s 5 · • · - - 1 - - t - - · - - t i- i _ f _l i - · • ·· · was finally that un 0 t ond the Board had a board or boor s Mr i a - 1 cll 1 ii There wo s no sir 1ilc1r Cor lmittcc th it cJis- j' cussed or - participuted in the 0 1r roval of tile use of LSD or 1 Ii 'ler -ctrc1n le C 0 C i j hy TSO r Go t t l i e b cept -- your - stater icnt is cor r -cct u ave rsc 1 c 1nd I - ucl forqottc - c· thc c 1 is such I Dept1ty r · _ · · - ·· ' 1 s Chief of the CI stuff I 1 qroup constituted under just r cc1d th 1 t today i n t e r - es t c cl 1 t h 1 t Jc c tl us e i t h a e n c c wh i l e I if it c - S tcd by the t ir c I JO t b ' ' - I · l runcc of it ---·----··· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 1 s don' t hu 'C ------- - I Jon c l rc e - - - - - - - · - - ---- - - - • 2 whic included a staff memorandum prepar at the operations i 1 3 8 4 1 s I rcsc ch office of the of cc crt use of psychochemicals and other c1gents to influence natio 1al policy - _·· ··_ _ G l-ihc1t I would like· to call your attention to is paragrc1 h 7 5 of the staff paper which says that 8 'lore definite data will be available shortly as the I ' _ _ 1 Corps arc chemical warfare laboratories of tne nclllica institu t tin9 tests of so e of these aqents in men Osins tn test them in Air Force ersonncl CJ c- on the subject 10 They arc pro- 1 u J C · using J 1 iI I 0 J r- l ' I tai e it this refers to r s -chochc ic ls s dcscrii Jcd i I • I' J I Or l r 1 z - 1- axwcll - - Gottlieb Shall I read the hole thing I don't thin you need to ·1 L• r·· - I I I C c rou -- simulc1tio 1 equipment Dr Gottli b Now this ould Le a militar 1c 1-l JX ell 1 military tcstin9 Dr Cottlicb 1 I 0 0 0 1 ' 0 ci I ar 1 tu1l ins uhout this c rou 1 the orc - 1- I' _ I j I ' in t c s 1c scn c that the Rane Cori orution or - s for the - Air force m 1nct not a CIA rclc1tcd activity I correct I c lon' t h 1vc any evidence c1bo it that r- _ c in' t spca fur that I clan' t I t -iin in this context that is rn j i t' - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ·O 8 l N 0 •• j · · · ·- ·· · •• knowledge o E such u re 1 a tionshi -_- · · ·· · 1 --- · - j· - - --·-'' · 5 6 -·--- -- - - c ' 7 I i- a -- well Ir I 1-lhat I am interested 1n is hether you c 1 --· _ · _ ' · ·_ - rec u 11 learning about th tcsts that arc rcfer ed to in the mcinoranJur t conducted usin J Air Force personnel or any tests B lj torics Dr Gottlieb 10 11 I' ------• 1 I - I rcudin J nc1 sr ir crs 1n the la st fe1-1 months i' J l ii l _- I C -Ir i-l i • -1cll De Gottlieb lib th J t t r ' · 1 a CS t 5 0 that lbc militai -y 1 ere doin J llut rclating it ·to this I huvc 1i - -t 1 • - c 11 I Inder endcnt of th2 t things inforr 1 ition 10 no you recall learning in 1955 of aili ary i 5 i Dr Gottlieb i-' r C u ve 11 no I cJon' t recall that There is o ly one rno c- ocu cnt that ' 1 ould like to go 01 ·cr 1 - ith you before 1-·c -roccccl to discuss o crational itci -ial -- there re two rao c J ' --· q· One is un c ccrpt f -om J cicntific intcllir_Jcncc ' icr 1or ir du i 1 ·hich is dated 5 l U JUSt 195 11 c1nd e it it le d ro c i ' ' · c1- • jcnt 1 S a J C··· · This was ntt iched tc for Unconvc itional ·li1rfo rc ' ' ' -- J - - t 0 - pproved for Release 2022102101 cooo 5 oa6 2 s 0 on 4 11 - Hittf l SPt · 5 l n l this reference to LSD as reference l at the 6 And I would like to u sk whether you c21 1 rcc 1ll seeing - ttis mcmorc1ndum or learnin J of it 7 lcarninu about that st 1tc- ---- - 9 - -· e C I I 11 I 12 to it Ii L 0 L' 1 I sto tcr ent wc1s or r 1thcr what the data was Dr 10 J __ I ·•· tllinJ I Gottlieb for that I don't remember reuuin this report would have had I rcc1d it c1t th 1t uo scd on 1-1hc1t He thought • -e knc· it ti 0 havc objected the tir e II ji I li i l r -icJ h'C 11 o·- Gottlieb 1- hich 1- •c1s th it there 1-10 s no in ic 1tion 1- hich w 1s -- that you could get true and uccuru tc statements rclia ly under _ r _ - So r 1y 1ns1-1er is I c o -i't remcnucr re H ing this lG d the c rug 1 l · ol I certainly don't know 'hat data they 1- crc tuli i is ' bout ·-' tJ ' • lG v i 1 -l i 1 31a 4 ''-· rC l ' G u eva ll itcd inform ition which 1 a s cistributcJ as p Ht of the er intelligence 9 1thering rrocess on ind also on the suhject o the Soviet nloc the subject Jcin J r -e e21rch it u u to 5hoH you is 1 T 1c lust itcr - I 1 oulci like j• 0 0 0 1j ii on LSD t S21ndoz and the u ppore 1t loc of LSD worl in the l' 2 £ •• 25 Soviet Hoc i nd I c 111 your o tte -itio 1 to p ir ic_ ra h '1 1-1hich stat cs th t 1- hi le r 1 1 1y o the s nclo pCOiJ le h i ·e in the p ist i taken LS J iost ire now of t -ic O inio 1 th t c pcrir icnt 1tion on l Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 -·· --- - h F Wtt ·- --- --- r •-• ·• • • • • • - 0 0 0 G l 0 N 2 € r countries wondering whether you cc in recall seeing this report and if 6 you could us you did previously indic tc your response what your res onse would have been at the time in iegard to the 8 t 'O conc usions M - e 0 11 Gottlic h Lc n211c - ril utioll list i didn't 1 · th it is the memo - nc un · ·hich 1-·as cnti tlcd ''rotcntic il lc1-1 gent Unconvcntion il ·lurfurc i 1 l-lu 1 cll l C j 1 17 nc Dr- Gottlicu's n 1r 1c - not o the clis- ' _ l he 1n f ict i seen C 0 I i' r'• 0 distribution list on it · - -' J cll '· I i '-' '- i1 I C· L · While he is reading tha would you note on the record tl1ut the prior memor21ndum th it you sho1vc l Dr J a Lenzner 10 ' L 1 - ' 7 9 C Wc S 5 • • 7 · 3 _ t' ' I reud it which is Hhy I us cd if he had in fact i Cc 1 r o inference is r ie nt to be c1ra1m t 1ilt Gottlieb I con' t s ccificall· r i cr iue - rearJing u c nl l this · I L' i do ' t o• iy cor sn nt Oulu he iL is a Ul C 'i1luc1tcu report c1bout 1 r- r - ' s e Cr ts l l i t t i ' • - and it is really just tall in•J ti vcling U S ph ir - icolo9ist H' orting - hat he lle r ror 1 sor ie _ _ scientist i t I Ould tend to discount the sic - iific-' ce of S indo ayinCJ the arc not aw i rc of rcsc i rch 1wrk uci g do ic on LS in the Soviet I i •I I' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 s 7 To be done routinely I don't -· kn w I 13 I 10 11 C· f nd if rou incly means to take as ee with that statement r so ice a wee on your own just to get a high 1 think I I don't thin I ever felt that L' u 1 11 ulJ ngrec with them 12 ' I ' - L i c ony C ug doc sn' t have its ha o CCs Mtl the re needs to l e 1 I 1 i C lS 111 C· • ··· _· - -- •• ee - to be askinCJ rac whether I felt at that time would I 9 -0· You a purpose for using it or taking it I Jrn a little co fused about wh it this r Len7 ner 1-i -iat is thi cJocur 1cr t c ocunent is sui_1pose l to represent 1 11 - 1 · The c1ocu - er t i s solely introduced as ' I o sscr- 1 ' pa a piece of datuo that was availahle at CIA without any th the art o intelligence on re rescnts finished it to that tio 1 that came bacl 2' ' itcllisence '· 1 one piece of f S it is CJe 1cy There is i c 1 1 the f gencY is in regard to the question o LSD- 0 0 0 ·J w 2 --i· _ vccy little infornation retained in the Agency records that the cr cY has been oble to locate for us about esperincnts ·· ' 0 And i t in L D 1 s de s i CJ n 2 cJ i n th i s con t e t to c 1 i c i t r I 8 whether it wo s circulated · _· It docsn' t identify the source 9 of the inforr 1 i tion specifically alth ugh it docs so y it is un- • ' - _ --t 51- · ev i luo ted infomation 10 nu I 11 am just wondering wh it probo tivc v iluc if any J C ' c- • l c- r· 12 ' 1 · st i ff f i l c • -1 l1 i ch is en tit 1 e d ii l' i 1G nr j 1 It c i r ie out o a security rc ezirc' 1 ii '-' ii c C 1 ho t file did it come out of it h 1s I • 1 s E j '-· Len nec l ll I can s i y is th t Dr Gottlieb's testi- mony is thzit ie h s no recollection of ever s ein J it i There is no indication on the mer 1orandum that it was ever c J°I l7 -- 0 0 v ci c 0 ' ' I 1 ' ' _ I w 2'J - '4 circul i tcd f · i t • · c1 s a CI It doesn't even indicate that memorandum docs it i l Dr Gottlieb 20 C i 18 1 1 0 0 I c1 Tho t nu • bcr would inJicat thc1t it w i s r iemor ndur 1 that c 1r 1c from debriefin J cl U S scientist that travelled abroad Somebody has cut off all the norm il Agency iu ntifiers I t hin' - I o i re i lly tired now l nd I a not sug0esting ut I would like to comr 1en t 0 1 the rcco rd th i t I e••• Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 j 4 J 1 - ¼ r t § ·rc 'PrJ · -- --E 1 w -b -- -- - ' · c · o·i h ' if'f fj$fil ff V 1 f • r f Y ff- j r- _ _- · ··· -· - - · •r t ' i • -s · t -1 '' - ' f· - f f- _ -' C2c ·_ -1 -i - - - f ' ·_ lJ - --· L ¢ J ' t_ J 1 1 Ii i' 0 find 2 memo li_ e_ t - • - - -S - o _i_n° at it I have no Ll -· - ·- - _ • -• ' ' •-_ - - · ·· · -· · knowledge it doesn't in l e c·o - thinss that I was involved · -_ ' _ - ·- i- _ - - -- · - • thi lk r iy· really_ best ·reaction a iy r 1ore than s iy- -Ji th and I C C · - - - - - · - ·- · ing I hadn't scen_it 'w oulcl be that I have no cor - ent on the thinr s in i 'tl1li tiJ C Mr Maxwell · r have no objection to your taking that _ · ·· - · _ · - - ··· -· · ·•• _·-- --- 6 position 7 The qucstio- _·_r -- olely···t atter 1rt os best we cun -- _ - ··- · _ -- t · · -· · _ -- - -_ -_ · to the tes tin J 1 --- -- - - 1- lO _ I I C J L 0 0 · i1 i 1 cl i n Jc -ous hoh'eve it 1s defined but solel 1 is 1 your iemory if · J t all possible l t hu t i n 1 il c t i t w i s h'ZlY of jorJgir J eCJ rc1 to 1 hi t coplc ''ere saying at that ti e C · rcJ 1 s the con c 1 u s i on · o· f th C -_- - i t t c e ' a question of imrortance to l ncl it is obviously - · ·- _ _ ·_1 1 7 f -·- - · ·- - _ ·· you and to the Committee ·_ ·that the esting of LSD continued -· --·-· · - · _ -· -- -- • • · ·- for so ne time· - d'r'tcrthu t - - l 7d 'th i t r iemorandum is not put for- of LSD 9 - r cl t h c y had g re J t d i f f i c-_ 1 t y i n t r i' i n y to r c co n s t r u c t i · what as being sai l throughout the Agency b c i use of the i b ence of records in regard to LSD tc ti c 0 0 0 u c tr Lcn ner · suyrJcstion - Clulcl be t at the Co 1 - - ittce cC r C 21 c r I w 2 t e· That mayo - ny not be true inforr t1tion in o - -11 itevcr rcrort it r 1 1r e consider h t probative vc1luc source is unidentified flu t r 1y ev lu i ti11tJ ll t i - h s to serious1· - rne o andu has here the i d there is no i 1dication of i h'hether the sou -ces arc cx9c -t 1 1 this re i or ot i nrl · F there is no w iy to cross-cxc1r ii -ie him - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ' ntl he is rest ti i• ·- - JO J - -_ pproved for Release 2022 02 01 00095086 C 0 j E - th il t 5 r- CJ - 0 ' t ne s s Maxw - ti ft r - · · _ Discussion off the _reco d · - ' - · · f · - f - ·- - - I- Mr 7 1-1 i -- - 1 - ·C - - -f ' -- · - - rtr I G i t w a s n ' t c i r cu l a t c d t·o t i s i' r Mux1-1el 1 ··D k' -- ·u · ecord - · fl ·i r f_ -· -- think the distinction should he mu de between circula- 8 I 9 i tion lists for memoranda and t e opportunity that individuals J G II 1 hud to read m mo i a· · · A- a' hr r is no inference being drawn ll '' tI th 1 t l 2 ' ·- - · --- · r- rj f --- 4 - · · _ ·- ·--- · - _· -f -- _ - - · i n d i v i du a 1 s have re id p a t i cu 1 a r p i c c e o f i n f o r n a t i on no· - t _-_ tl i n a v iilc1 Jle to the Corr ittee C i -1 Ch C i L C U f l J t 1 n C C '' i t- I' 1' L' I nesses arc going to be given t c or ortunity to say whether -'- they h - ve or huve not read mate i l or hcthcr they c in re- n __ __ 1 r l ' J L i i cull th2 t 11 think Jrob ibly the r io t t sc ul thing 1- ould be i you I 16 I I 0 1· 1 · I would like to rroceed through this utcrial on opera tio ial ·' J 0 0 0 USC Di cu sion off the reco _- __ l · u C • it I ' ' '- -1 ' i' Dr Gott 1 i e l J -ir • ' • ' ' ' J roc cd 1 ch rono lac icc11 on cr through the files 2 8 1- uxh·cl 1 1· hy don't re they so a rrungcd They arc putting • 1 i S1 C e the drug Olicy rnc 1 coccc ures Dr Gott 1 i c -- - r - I ur i starting with the file la led ' -Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 C 0 2 ' Jout £ - '- Do you want to talk further about it 1-ir M i well If _you kno'-' '_ r c hing about it I have no de_ - ' 6 sire to ask you questions auout it _· _ ·- · · · ' I No chance Dr Gottlieb 7 --- -i---· _ • r - • · -- -_ - _y It seems to be sort of an ex- - ------ e I 1 1 n t W J 1 3 a f ' • p cip itc l in th interrogation of an indivi luc1l I 1- s 0 J •• c - 3 a f 1 ' r·- LV-1 c _ I ' ot in the ency c1t thi1t timt I don't kno• c1nythin9 iJ Jou that l _ 1 une 19 ' i 2 is t l C Thell teara visited 19' il_is the next one between the period 11 J inuary and 2 Jonuary 1951 onc 1 r irti- t l ' 0 hat is only from my rei1din9 I hi1ve no to s i y t ha t nd it is i1 c 1se called Let r ic c loncc throuq i it i r inute to sc whether I can 12 0 0 0 c i-_ u It seer is to ci c r v C r ic to he a case having no ir volvcr icnt by or liy TSS usinCJ baroitu itcs a -id hy nosis to induce 1 hypnotic tr ncc followed by interrogation w l nd I don't know any more ' u 2 ' out it than th 1t u 0 Is thi useful - · ' 1 n I 9athcr you 1· ill isk ittcstions i you i h to l 'Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C000956°86 'i i 1 9 S 2 2 G 7 doesn't seem to 13 I - I C lQ_ C 11 Februilry 1953 And it comprises really only two agenda or whut arc J I ec· cC1lled progress reports here of the Articho c grour J 12 0 1 · I I You can s rle ent thut with one riece o - · 1 i 1 0 1 1 ion _ lich is t 1 1t in the ninutcs it sho1 •s thc1t you II C l ' 11 c 15 1 lG i - J '- uttcnJeJ this·p rticulur Deeting of the Articho e Coffil ittee n d on p u r c1 g r i p h 1 S i t st i t cs th 2 t ii c1nnounced that the cc1se of t h 1 3 8 4 c 11 presently in H ishington who treat cnt was cuncellcd l ' -1 1e I 'I I 0 0 0 J C II to be given Artichoke upon instruction fro very hish offi C1ls in the i v i s i o n ulthouc ih all operations rcoi' le agreed 21 1 1 S a 4 w is that t iis w is u cuse in ' hich i rticho' • c treat r ent 1-wult h i vc I heen ve1·y vc1lu il Jle 2 I I w is wondering whether you c in recoil anything about cit 1i r t ie ror os i l or the c i icell i tion C 25 Dr Gottlieb I reully cun't I just don't have 1 I• i -------4 - ------- -- ----'--- ----- r-G-P Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 1----- · t ·J i ' - - t - if -'j Ifiie2 f liP c - t tt f - 1 - f · -Y · --- -1G P- 1 i v · 1 · l ® - - i ' ' · - 3-R- T- tji - 2 - - -r - - _ ' -- -•- f t 1 any recollection of anythi g you aro describing it that 2 was · · · c · t fff i· i - -c f t •t - i - '' · · · · -· s7¢1 zttti TT t · J - c - -_ ·· I hil'✓ C no information· on· that ' -2 - ·s l i 't cc f·' to- - -gc·t· ·t he - - · u c ·iok·e tr'e ii' tme rit- -il rid celled 1-1 as can - · _· ' -' •- s-' · --n 1-• fffi -- ff r -- i · t · ·· t These IL Mu e 11 '· Th ' ·1· -f tio · ther - i J vc ry spotty 1 3 a 4 C then · ct i - i- f _ if fi ' I G hnd what I would like to·ao·is to··try to·rccull your own tn1 vclsl 7 during that year · - - - - - ·- -- z · 1 · ·-- · -·· - -• There-is an indication in a memorandum for · - _· i · t · ·- ·_ ' i • 8 1 3 a 4 c_ 9 10 19 SJ l I J 1-3 a 4 2 1' i iJovcr iber 19G2 for the record that there Herc three setsI i ij 1 · inclu li HJ one o E interrog J tion3 - -· 11 I -- C· ' ' 1 1 _ C 1 I I 1G in 19' iJ · hat I _-ould like you to attc1 1 t to recollect is w ethc -c I lei i I' J - 2r - _ · · ' Or C ottlicb Shall I rei d this first I V c il DCL'fi intcrrogution and if so were you involvc l 1n 1 - i 0 0 0 i Discussion off the record 1' 1i I' C _ •1 C ·1 Mr l·la - tell Dr I Gottlieb 2 ' _ ' ·- __ 0 It in that year 17 A- I ' j in p J rticular to 1n fact you did truvcl I @ there is also an indicution in a memorandum 11· _ c d J tccl ml ' v- _ you can Dr Gottlieb cack on the record pcrh 1ps you _ ould tell t e story lS best l za 1 J1r rrro _ _ _ _ _ -·-- p erove9 for Release 2022 02 01 900095086 1 a 4 C C ·-· c ·· - t - · ' · ' - -· ·_ ' 'i i - • - - 1 the best of Dy recollection I was 2 e f - _ f --• ' 0 ' c ' by an individual from the headquartcrs _desk involved that 0 ·· - _ -- -f _ ·2 --- - -- - the approval of such a·trip and such a series of tcchnici llly · · _ -- - - - -- · ·' -f- - · - - ·- --- ·- 5 assisted intcrrog 1tions' _ d 6 using LSD I II I r e ir ·-- ··--- · -- - - 4 l -_ _ _ consisted of approval by_'the Br rich Chief I by _ -h- i ' lly _assisted the Di vision Chief nn l ic Ff jf1t f t S-' I discussed with the 1D tur c of the ussistance thi lt LSD could rrovit1c i tcrrogLttion - I in this And there was some Ci lbles exchilnged I •· Jclicve ilthouqh I czin't remc bcr thz1t in dctc1il now C - 1CJ 1in J J setting approval from headquarters to do it · C 2 I f 1_ • C 1-3 a 1 ib C r· i 1 r c I 1 -r - r sc - 1cnt c in' t n c c r the s cc i ic - 1cthc - I h'LJS loo inq throl j l it th -ouqh a - i ·o 'I 1 - or an _ thi J li c th it I r r 01-1 th it I sa• -1 t e intcrrorJ ticns I _ ' u C I ju t c on't re - cmbC'r 0 C' C 0 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086' - · _· - · - · _ - - - ·· · · I they had any wonder don' t kno · Do you have any recollection of how the the ency I o u l c ju st J UC S l I Gottlieb Dr S - · · ·• ' - --- - ·• eo lly h2 ve no sriecific recollec ion th2 t it p obzibly ha lrencc th t Ii J · _ either 'ouild out d · 1 3 a 4 - 1 - Ii it oEE cc · c_ oi 11 3 O lt I L - I Dr l · 1 · - • l 1 - - e it i r l 'J ' J 11 Colt l i c OU io i rezi lly can't I 1 nd do you rccc1ll the dosasc t izit 1 J s i 1 olvcd 0 0 0 0 Dr Gott l c es I do recall t J t b causc I kno ' ' 1 nc l it ro ngc of GO t0 100 • in tc t· ro J zit io 1 -' r '-' a 1- e l l i·ic c the indivic u ils unc cr - r · · u · Cott l i c b I -eJ lly Jon' t rcr c - l ic r - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - · - - - - - - - - - --c---cccc-c- --- j TOP SECRET t 1 J t I rc - e ibc ' ------------ ------ ------' 'C' J'i ' ' - 'i ' CC· • 1 f ¥iiJ i% W - - c 's '' ' 107 ·7 e - ¾ -i1 ' r rni F hou 2 31 1 ' · jtt1f ri f jJ 1t il W-P f ilt iiiit f h t 1JSZ il i i 1 t iJ t' ·- • · · ttr ¾' J t og ' ' J t l ___• ·_ -- __ _ J ' __ e '' a o· - f L • ruif i d hc clL _yr r t ther there were t the d n - mgqical- personnel ·i 'tiVOl vcd ·in the _in tcrroga t ion t ·· - ·_ ___ - J· it- -- l _- f ° ··· ·· Dr Gottlieb ·_- flcY -_' er_ a i lY wc en' t involved in the •· ·· ' ' ·-5 - J · · f tr t' S· -' - 5 in t e r r · as I remember -r _There ·were medical facilities 1 · ' -· - --t 'i' ' - 2-- 6 _involved in case anybody neerlcd'---t1 at kinc 1 of help · • · · _ _ •_ - · - 7 Mr Ma • C 11 0 f f the re CO r a B DiscussiO - 9 N _ 1- r 10 c '--' J - w C· • '-- '-- C -ihc I l L-- J l Vi 15 lG I r --- 17 1 J n I 0 0 l' 1 0 h u 0 20 c 0 C C 21 22 - 2j 1 - - 25 0 rcu on at S 10 p r 1 the Interview was a ljo ncd Octobc r 10 J0 a n Friday C C d ·l r • 1ill brczi until ·• ··· tomorrow - 10 30 11 - -- · ' _ · ·On· the reco r l · 24 J 7 19 7 5 l ·· tS a W IIIIIIIIIIJI c 0 t' c -t I ii' ' ·- 1-_· ·· C'- l I 1· L 1 J· • 1 c t' · c · l 1 · - • r-- _ I 0 L -· - r • i c 1u iC c i or I j· I c 1 1 i L 1 ai l I C --1 _ 1- ir ··· r_ I I 10 - i • · L· L Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 r I F docs not rc e ibcr h · 1 t bcy c J -- c into his intcrvi cv ith t tc lin ·-· c itic cd t -e l i l leor ctl · i pl 1 - 11 - i I I j ' i I I' J l ·-· v- · i Col tllc u n eu VO the 1 0 lsncJ in ·· · · · · • - _ - · •···· Intl 1· • ·o d --ti'o· n '- ct in __ _ I Dt i Lun 11or cl rnyt i1inc to c o it · N t-• ii - · ·_ - ---- • C 1i · r · ·io- I ' GoU lico iI C I l l i e a fl uc lt i n 3 l 1i 1 l'lou · _ • c ot Jcyo 1u G t c c p - ju t in c i c ulll Cottlicl i ccrt iin t h it r c did nut- 0 ct t 1 l 1 - r t e DD ' 1-Ud ir l Dl_ ll pcr on tl 09prov to r lc i e the i us vould Li bve been tio ie 11 the o_ r 1tton l od Gone th it for k c rc un ible to 00 c• · · ·t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ep - c · - s i·· -' 'c ' 'ic c - ' '· - cS -c t e c c s s sse p J_ ' ' ¢i ·C 'i%' _s ' fs' ' S' S lc ------- ---- -r llllL t · _¾'- _f J ' - _ · f r 1'1 i ·1 i%td Jc_'i• - t f Y ·· -so • ' c•¼-o • 'i • - -c - A°' · - ' - cc - · ' ·' · - oc X - ·· c--' II IIIJl _- _ - '_ ·-'7 j c-••··- · · · -·· · -- -· f itec c - ··-· ·· · · 'Wf ttc y' t8I li f · - • _-7-- '1 -- ·· - __ __ i y i - - · · ' f O S J 'J i ' - C- t 1h9JJ £ w - · ··-· - 1 ·--· ·- --•- - s --¥ $'i ' 7 D- r L' l irJ _ · ·• · · -· · - -f t i- ' fuf J§i 't - ' _- --·--· _ _ - - · · - -00 - r ' - --- '··· l - • f 5t _fr - _ f - - · _ _ - -cc 11 i h- ie in• olvi i 0 ' 1 1LlL1 i Lt - · · - -- · • -- - J t 1 1 Yt c i 4 Af t - -· 1 3 a 4 i c - t itc il u ecl by • c icn o u cl' piL it o -J--the Lhot • ht b ln to tJc tro r C c ' ro' - · · · · ··· · - _ 7-- _p • - - -··2 - - ·t - ' j · L i 'fne c c · · is· T 1 De i rl b c ·Js t i U c · c r-tl o f i l l uu t _ · -i - -- · · ' i - · crccl cil - r ur- ii i y ur i Jy lJ ot7tio i 0 ·•· · -· ·· ·_ _ - _ - · · · - _ ' - -- _ · · U r J n ·' -' De ri ' lt do gc C J U CS l pLL l' lc LOO r U l --- -• - ' · · - · oJecc s F' n 1i 1 s L cc l LCc i c orl C 1 tctl 1 o Lh 01 2 h ' iliillillif l ic c • · _ --· • •• _ · • • 1 3 a 4 C G L'I e 0 C f 3 a 4 t r C c ic thu- S he vir- ' to c o vL th l ou t or 1oc 1 · -1- foc itl n c - b · ith vl c l be c 11 0 on t' Ji plot e - l3 - t O o -ic cl ·-- ·· I -· I · - - - • t 1 'J in t -ic o c - i ti a 1 · ll l c for I I t 1' l' tc 1 · - q c - c oC c·r nt i no clc r bul it L·· • _ la m ur r of t-hod vcrc con id rcc l Prcf r it Lu11 at l I ___ It oulc l be n l c l lr 1t TSD c iiat iin a oc I I 1 jtcnt u 1 l cst crici ls for opcr itio - al u e I 'I •J t l t 1 -·· r - ' I - J - ---- ·• I f ' I C· cr· lc c h s • ' · ' ·· no tlon t r tt on lG ° uGu t 1961 r c 1-cc lv c i bo c oL' Ii• u l r too•l tl c J 1 S 1cf F c ·-·anl L · r·- 1 3 a 4 C c ot tLon that EJ· r 1rd doe not rccoll the incit e 1 e c o 1 i c t c d ot' 'i'SD on f 1119111 rc c ·oe - e -Q· rL' lentln C -_'1 l i i u S jl c b - 19· 0 vi th orr e cii ir i ri L' n trco ti G a full bo - I - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 o i i tLll h is lt · r--- C· _ l 1 3 a 4 _e c G1L 1 1 t l e C u 1 -ecific l tbc noel kcp t c c in hi rer o 1 ' ll lfc C y Ccc -_- c n I of T n it L - 1 3 a O hc - i rec all th cii -3r chc e but only n ir tL 0 1 t O'C inr e l tr c c i e 0 1'1 c r rcqll e 'i'o C11 1 ur l - · 1 - i it 1 C Jvd c 1 o · i IH t dl C f _ tJ •J I · I c l - I ·r- _ - e - - - ' ·- -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 ---- ···- --- --- ff1'8111r2t ' •· - ' - · •- '• - - - • · t S ' N · i t Jf f f f ' - - - - -- stti ' · 'i U -t i-itY 2 ff I' ti tf ·· · s ·• --· --·-- · - --··· _ ·- - · ·· · - _ _ J- J• - 1 rJ ' c i lJ - Oj l - nc h L n00 e·r l - i - i l L 1 1d 1lr - dy • _ - •· '_ · • fj - - - - o ' 7 to Tloo e•1clt u t ubj- ct Hvu - ·c t• c 1ll -- L 1 l 0 - - - _ - ·i - ·- - - ·-· ir L 1fi r SL 11 di cusse l it-vlth eel·- - - ·•·· · · J _ ·- i i - -- · - · · 1 l ll rl- ie n it - c ill pccLCL c onvcr io -i ·1 ii h citucr of Lh i o Li1c lcc0_ 1c il - ·t ·t- t' tb c _ ct or t e problciJ he cll l t k 1· clo cc l the l op by t il · d th to lt £ h ard nr d P oo c• el ' • • - -- -t · · • i • di J Ot nar e t 1- t ir t o floosevelt 8 4 'j C v 1 C i tro it Tl Josc• e lt belic· c thut l c vo11lu h 1· c JJ111 r J - 1 - J in 8· 1--'1' ' I · ' · - • then c 1ic1' or T J' C - - ilc it fJL· - ton -• - ·- 1 z o r- collc t o ot' such · ork it t ut Lir c tc- i v t11 2 but H0osc- L 1 r I bu Eoo e vc l d ld s iy t 1 rt · ir he tu - d 1 t o· cr- to coulu li i vc css - d it to l c thln ni hJ r tox c uc i a h llf h pvi o to c uJ Lnistercu 1 - · c i0 1 1 i1- b Oi i c - - i l· · t ·-- i r- _•rl in - J - Approved for Rel e 2022 02 01 1 3 8 •- _J -···· · · ·· lb Co -_ or - ill pill a Jout th Gl7 c of - icc 1 i l 1 l J l c t c • • I d 11 - t' L · r J IL -c cn • 'li1c cpcclflcntlcn ·-- re U it l 11 poi un t c r- - 0 unil - iL t i fii lj' p -ctlict il Jle end rc uU • e l oU or tho c n qui -c cnt intl it c 1y l c pu 11p In t i s r G ' c 1 3 t r- li uitl or- oli d f o r - - totes Uul U· c plll 4 uose 1 1 01 i as Lx c iu e o C c i P c d 'lfc ty vC r t tl 11 c G Cor - nt 'I u iz tcr coy r ivc c l tl c c iut'lu- 1cc on t - c oic or i c uos of o Js irution O'Cor r 11 y - L t ln hi vcr· 1 curly tlt c 1 on lt i tl c lr c 0r r urr r - l cl · 1 3 a L r _ u i n ·J b t h L it et r c rcq1ii r en fo - solu i i y o t it x l it _· ir tc'1 i uro ic tr it Lhc pill e -uly l th ll J a - ·· •-·· - u _r • l l - l - t • t J JI I • l O 1 1 J ' • 8 · - - - - - - - i • ··- ·· - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 He 0 1 l Jc tile t L- c re lc i c Donov 1n i 1 J i 1UO J ' c G c · Tr tcc m qL--c ln· olvcd uu in r e in 1 cc of r c s1 i - 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- _ · - --- · ···· - i · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 - - - - -· ----- · - · - --o I - - i r·- I · ' I L e 0 0 C 1 Il G -------- ··•----- ' • _ - ·7_·· ¥ - ¥ · - · - · - • ' '· · · pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 e tl l 1 0 oi' tlo o· iy 1 --i th 1 3 a 4 ll nccd - - • J 1 c t --- 01 c tcc -_ ic ' • 1 or tlot ii t 1 i 111 l li 1l ic 1 in 1 - - - - pp -o icr e l D - C11 - n' 1°0r 3 _ 4i1 ' l t i 1cc 1· it ·c u le of r cJicl - c _ I l 1 lie · · 1 ' r c t hc t ·y ·L 7 c Jui tc u -c th t· - 1 coultl c· e 1 1j• be infc - -ctl t ' ' l they· -c -c xekin 3 l cc ir a · i 1s lc 1 io 1 · '' o · u ort th 1 Cl ' cl i r 1lo 1t rc 1 0 --lbly have l cc 1 c - ectct l to l J ivc ·r 1s 31 ic - Li i 1' 110 a I co o 1 d I 1bo11 1 Q otln- ul_1 ' ' i tc I I • - - · 1 · · _ · 1 '· ··- · · - 1 _1 'i I • - '--_tt _- j '-l - • _ _ - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 '- -- -- - - - - - -- ___ I - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095086 I 11 - · · - -- ·-- · · ' ' _ - ' · · Even 1 Jll · 'tcr even or clc llt f iti · h• - 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