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U.S. Senate, “Report of Proceedings, Hearing held before Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities, Testimony of Sidney Gottlieb,” October 17, 1975, Top Secret, 87 pp.

Report of ProcecdingtJ Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities Friday October 17 1975 W'-Shington D C Stenotype Tape and laste turned over to the C011JOittee for destruction YARD PAUL -1111 nRST iTHEr T S E ASIIIXGTOX D C 20003 ' - •i · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 '1fp·•j · - - ···· - - ·_ - ' -- -_ - -- _ r t ·- -q A hlP -'- T f •r - · · ' M·- l T to · · c- - f • i § - i_ j N- SH -_ •i ' - -- 7 - 0 p --S ET - - -·- • ' ·-- ·' ·_ - · · · _ __ _ 2 - -tt fi 1-ft- - -- -- · ' ' - ft- - · - - ·-- g _ _ m - i -- d -4 r · -· -• •·· • _ - - ••• ' 1 · 2 C 0 3 Pi GE TCSTIMOtlY OF · I f 1 1 '• II Sidney Gottlieb --accompanied Terry u n' ' ' reSumed J t 5 · 6 · 2 · • EXHIBITS NUMDER 8 64 Gottlieb Exhibit No 1 9 - -· 10 C' 11 -• J - _ - _ 1 2 4 -· 0 - 1 C 1 _ l r - 1 - · _ I 1 • n 0 0 u c 0 c 5 IJ e 0 Ii 2• II•I ·- 2 · -- -r·- -•-'1-• I' •I L · • Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 _tff If ' · · f f shelburne ash 0 - 1 N 0 N 2 'i V C 0 -· '1 United States Senate ·• ·- _· - 5 Selc t Committee to Study Governmental 6 Operations ith Respect to 7 I I -Vi ----tics - - - ·- ------------c- -·---tit tr- -- - --- --'-c--- - JnJ lLlgcnce ---l cti 1 Washington D c Lt' I I 9 N The Staff met pursuant to notice at 12 15 p c in 10 -- Room S 40G the Capitol 11 c I I J L 1 t c Present 12 Ii L 0 • 11 I 3 Elliot Maxwell Ted Ralston and Frederick flaro 1 r rofessio 1al Staff Members I I 1I l•i r _' •' iIi 1· 10 1 · iii' 11 1 '• I• ' 0 0 0 'I •J J ' u ' i 0 p I I ¥ · - ·ii j- _ _ - __ •I u 0 I ' •• I • ' 1 2 - i1 ·' TOP - - - - - ------- __________ _ _ _· __ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 2 0 0 0 @ TESTIMONY OF SIDHEY GOTTLIEn ' - CC01·lP1 ' ED 0 ' DY TERRY F LE -IZ ER COUN SEI -- rcst icd w C Mr Maxwell We will start the deposition of Dr 0 € And it is my understanding from discussion with II 5 6 Dr Gottlieb's counsel that we will operate under the s3 mc Ii ground rules as we have before and we will stipulate the ' presence of a Senator the oath and the like as vc have before 7 'I J Mr Lcnzncr That is acceptable ' Mr Maxwell Dr Gottlieb you were rc crrin J ycstcr lo 1y r • when we cncled the leposi tion to the dru J interrogation· in C · I • I • is won lcrin J f i • ou hod ilnythin J else to odcl to th 1t intcrrogi tion 1 J • • C Dr Gottlieb tl ought about it 1r1 l I can't rcc 111 dct 1ils other than the ones I ' r M ixwcll ti recounted to yo 1 yesterday Do you rccnll whetl1er tlrnt ir terrogation - J •· wa5 done under the auspices of the rtichor c Cor- ii t tee or separately rom it 1' Dr Gottlieb Mr 1- ax '-'ell I rcc1lly don't rer iembcr that Do you rec 1ll • - •hct cr the Office of Sccu - ity or the CI medical staff plnycd any part in either the ' e • • • '--• consideration of the ptoposal or the authorizacion o the proposal Dr Gottlieb I a n sorry ··-· th it T Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 l have no rccollcctio 1_ nt -- -···-- · g 0 e 11 ' '0 l II • I 11 I I ' Dr Gottlieb I don't recall whether there as Mr Maxwell Perhaps we can I• i l a move on to the next I' s I ' 6 m i t te r I Off the record ' Discussion off the record i 7 i' i3 Mr 1· a well Dack on the record II --- J --FC o ' u ¾l dk-- y o u - -comme-B- --Go t t J i c b I II C 11 Ii ii C - l ' C use of drugs that we have i Dr Gottlieb kt l jL-J J ti- - 1 L on the n e t o c r a ti on a 1 9 · ' · And DY comr icnt on it is I recog- · ' - - J C c· l c i nizc this Daterial as some activity that preccde l a TSS involvcDcnt that came later but I lon't recollect this rnemorandur i 1 ith ony overseas testing that I c i n help _ it - 1 li 1 i - i1I i' 11 l- r M 1x e 11 - hen you say TSS in vol vcrncn t that car e later • hat arc you referring to Dr Gottlieb · ell I am referring to other material c it 1 you had us reoc l this r iorning which refrc hecl my rner ory on 0 1 · • C -j think it was Q IILLTOP w ich was sort of a lr1ter of this activity re ncscntcd here follo- ·-on Bul h it I am try - -·- to say is that I don't relate what I read here with acy overseas tests th3t I or TSS ha l anything to do with -· e ·• Ir ti xwcll We - ·ill follow up the QKIIILLTOP as a scp ir_atc section in order_ to pull that together Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 g @ 0 1 ·- i ' Mr • a cwcll I 1 I am looking i t this a erial in over- se i s tcst - g terms II 0 Gottlieb D l That is fine Dr Gottlieb And I don't sec anythin ere that stimulate my memory oc that I can comment on usefully in that context ' ii G i I Mr 1·' axwell Pcrpaps you could go on to the next I 7 j 9 C 11 iI I '½·p C'· - · ' L l J Dr Gottlieb -- I •J - - - - • • The next file is labele ' • • ' • ••• • • • • • - • • • • • - IJ l file · · • · -- ·· • ·- •J · · · · · · · ·· · · · ·· -' ' _ · · · - · _i '· · - - · · _ · - ·- - J C· - · _ 0 i 1 'L- J ' c· I _ There is ef CC t i ' e nd c1 reference in a later ra cr to t lc incivitlual I thin - tll3l 7hat W S 1- ·3 our co - cl usion too the r cmor i h - th i cal lee to you - attention us a report ·-· _ Dr Gottlieb statement he r ai o there is either in this file -- und I t 1ink it is 1t be useful to J -inq it u now -- or in i - o -icr series o r e ior- 1nd 1 I read on this a exc lange o cables that refer- to my Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 s 0 0 0 ' pres cncc in - - at the time and thu t refer to the poss i- @ 0 s C 0 t i 1 i' 1 1 G Ij 7 8 9 i ii I I I I I' 0--- 10 ' 11 iii J1 bi li ty of using the materials e then called P-1 and A-2 on these three individuals being used I don't recollect those actually ll n l I really can't say they were used in those three cases now whether or not I saw nothing in the material I read that made me rc ember th t they were used The only reference is to the suggestion being made Mr Maxwell Is it your understanding from the materiill 'I that you read that the interrogations were conducted using sot iln i pcntathol and desoxyn or drugs similar to that or with si ilar effects to those J c • e c That wus my undcrst incling from the Dr Gottlieb 0 1 1aterial I re id on th se three intcrrog0 tions - r l ixwell ·1 Off the r co rd Discussion off the record n ick on the record I • _ I I' C 0 0 There is a reference i 1 the C 1ble traffic to a ' Opos il to use P-1 on J 3A- Off the record '· c _ Discussion off the record - r - axwcll U ck on the record There is a reference P-1 the files to a prol osal to use in -- i ° ' - t i' ·' ' 2 · c t ii 01 if -- and here thc c 1ble - uses · ' - ··- ·· _ · - ·• · • - • ·r - • · • -1_· 1 cr- ptony hat we hove agrceJ refers to you and agrees The cable was _sent n July ti - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 6 0 0 0 - - ' 1954 1 The cable continues 0 N Due u u suicide attempt doubt he suitable can- didate either Artichoke or P-1 and requests C 0 € again using the cryptonym referring to you -- an opinion from you The next cable in the series which we were given indicates that you would visit the· to discuss the cases that were under consideration and run them-- 7 - ---- -- --1-1--c-c-_ I a s s c u- m e i t m c ans _the cables -- if you a nd another i od i vi d 1 1 a-J· r II 0 11 II 1 II a r-0 J 1 I• agree It also reflects that you concurred in the decision suggested in the earlier cables not to use either technique on that individual because of the suicide J L I l I C about that or conferring with anyone ilbout the use of P-1 on these individuals 'I 1 1l I 1 r •· Do you recall any of that any of the series of exchanges Dr Gottlieb I was able to get no recollection inc1cpendcn t of v ha t I read in the cables that I read in that file 1 3 a 4 ' _I' ' C 0 0 0 C you are handling except that this hypnotic attempt on it may be that P-1 or -2 was used I just don't remer iber hethc r or not it was used And I didn't see anything in that file that was helpful to me to resolve that question Mr l- axwcll The cable traffic reflects Richard elms who was then Chief of Operations as the releasing officer in - the cable that· refers to the proposal to have you confer with - 1 3 a 4 f' as to the P-1 interrogation If P-1 had been recommended what would have been the aµprova1· ·Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 - 0 1 ' mechanism if any beyond Hr Helms N 0 ii N 2 · C 0 € Dr Gottlieb i J_ Hr Helms' approval would I• have been enough for me i ii now I don't remember the procedures at that time 'I assume that he checked with somebody higher but I really 11 i I don't know J 1 Who he checked with I cannot comment I would I '1 don't want to say that 6 i 7 i Ii I 8 1 I Mr Maxwell leased it 10 I sufficient authority i • - - Let me comment also that my assumpt ion when I read l 1 · I·I J C For me I would have considered that j r ' - that would have been sufficient for you Dr Gottlieb L· nut if you had knowledge that he had re- i J _1 through that material was that the reported success of the 0 l Artichoke interrogations of these people migl1t have made the 1 operational people wh0 were controlling the e cases feel ' ' that the use of P-1 would have been surerfluous '·t But that is just a conjecture on my part r- ' · r 1 ' l'-1 Wil S 1-' axwe 11 For the record I have no evidence that in fact used in these cases Part of our interest here is as you described it yesterday 0 0 C in trying to gain j c from you information about approval mechanisms in the contc t of tllc proposals as • ell as the actual use Dr Gottlieb I want to make it clear that I am not sa' ir q that P-1 was not used or lenying that it was used - · it may well have been I am just saying that I don't ha ' a recollection of it Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 •' ·· 11 ---· - 1l 1 - -- --------- 1 · l I I' Mr Maxwell It appears from this material that this I E 4 8 • •• • - I • - --• _ • case Artichoke and r-1 were seen separately r I C 0 z I Can you recall on the basis of your experience what l determination would have led in particular circumstances to € l I I 'I 5 suggest one or the other methods and if there were differences lj i' i 6 · 'I 11 I I 8 I what were they Dr Gottlieb in I differences because we have been through that differences ' II s r u e P-1 operation to be i of considerations that would have led people to use one or th 1J 1 i J '· ' J · L at what I consider Artichoke to consi er--a Ii 1· 10 C- I You are not speaking about technical I can only comr ient that I imagine a lot other entirely apart from the accessability of one technique ur information about one technique or anothc to the people 1 0 C J who ·ere planning such un operation 1 _ 'i · 4 C· n determination might have been made th i t the use of the kind of i f0r instance · cl medicill-like setting th 1t Artichoke requires was si_m JlY not permissible it would h -ivc 1· frigl1tened somebody and it would have frightened people and 0 would h ive rn ide thcra 0 C I don't quite know how to s i y this -- would have rn -ide it very difficult to c irry off the operation '· sorncbody rnight have been frightenecl of th J t kind of rneuical setting and the unwitting and total lack of aware-· ness on the p irt of so ne ody who was being interrogated · ' that Hay 1 lig 1t have been the key thing ' lesirublc se tin - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 thu that as a 5 £' g - lilPi'e ft--m i-vit - ' T 0 • ------ - ry r f - 'Ob •· · ·-• ai ne «-•n - - C 1 Mr MaX' 'ell l nd what might have been the circumstances ii- which would lead people to perform an Artichoke interrogation 2 - ii 0 rothcr than a P-1 interrogation Dr Gottlieb I ' t ' The kind -- I would co ffient that the kind of sccnorlo where they thought this rather formidable I I 1 medical setting and the kind of hypnotic effect of these different drugs would help-them in what they arc doing i1 6 q In other words they may have suggested that in some people I 1 8 i 11 _ ·L------e --¼----c-t-t l·H Tt t__ k iHn u o f setting_ g__ha c the effect of making them 7 9 1 · • 1 J - speak more question but that these drugs that we use in the two techniques 1 • ' i The one wos a harbi tu 1 te one hich J What I am trying to say is that there is no I were very different bosicolly ut you to sleep and the other was one w ich bas icu lly haci the effect of disorientation and confusion 1 Mr axwell It appears from the cable traffic that C read to you th t at least one factor was thc hc 11tn of-thcJ t - · 1 individunl or th€ erccivcd psychological state of the individu 'll in regu rd particularly t I would include that yes or Gottlieb J l -as lea'-·i - •J t h t on nut c nut that would be in fact one of the determining factors ns to which one would you use _ - e or Gottlieb Lh t ol 'fUOt --· thut Wi S It coul l have been perceived as being sh J- · - tha t that ould have ' een a factor - ·· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 g ··_ 10 0 - ' Mr Ma - ·well 1 Was i t unusual for you to be called in N 0 N 2 to a situation where there was also interest in Artichoke 3 interrogation of an individual C 0 t I- Dr Gottlieb I don't think so 11 I' 5 11 6 r ••• I as potentially Dore severe than an Artichoke interrogation 11 8 Ii and thus postpone P-1 interrogations until after attempts-had -- II e 4 0 C 10 I Dr Gottlieb 11 1- r Maxwell ii · It '1 • 2 l · i 1 i 1 t think so They were seen as different orders of severity Dr Go t t 1 c b severity I don't want to co cnt on the order of That is a term that doesn't mean anything to me I am ju9t trying to answer your question that I don't think they ere perceived in a manner relative to each other that 1· ·' J I 1on' t r• •• •· been made with rtichoke interrogations ·1 s _ • 9 1 J t it be poasible that the Age cy would sec a P-1 interrogation I ' _ In the differentiation you just made would • 3·· l ·' Mr Maxwell '• l _ l · 0 0 N Ir axwcll So it • ouldn' t be necessarily normal to say that if by conventional interrogation techniques we haven' · succeeded the next thing to do would be an Artichoke u ci you just mentioned _· ' f C u ' intc -rogation and the next P-1 that 'n'oulc not be the nor nal r course r' ·-· e - · 2 Dr Gottlieb tJo ' Ii tncss confers wi t -1 counsel -- r • ax ·ell Just to r i ikc sure this is covered for t e 5EI lff ---- --- -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 - 1 i 0 C 0 record do you have any recoilection of why after you were II authorized to ciscuss the cases and approve a P-1 interrogation I I if you thought it fitted -- i II Dr Gottlieb · i Mr Maxwell -- if you and the operation al people I 1 11 6 l I I 8 11 Ii 1 1 I r ____ I• f' ji --- lG c l 1' I 11 h I e r- • i J 1 • Dr Gottlieb that the apparent success of these Artichoke interrogations _m a_Cl _ it su erfluous that is the only comment 13ut that is not ba led on a recollection Nr Maxwell It is based on - ad l-- The file indicates that an Artichoke And the cable that asks for your opinion begins Artichoke team not available near future 1 · j 0 0 0 ' · an individual discuss with -Dr Gottlieb I see I didn't remember that Then my response would be I I n l the impression in rca ing that that the chronola 1 as such that tl _ J threc·· individuals had the J Rti'chore in • '•• · tcrrogation before thc CP- 1 _suggestion car 1e up - and that is iu _ - · r - uggest renlly have no comment on tlrnt point ci can make team wus not avuilable in the near future which was why it was referred to you C I that file l C I mentioned before that I could speculate 0 thought it was fitting -- -1 was not used 'I J L· If I ·and the operational people tj -- --- k - --· ' N1t '- r- ' - _ V the case apparently from what you arc saying r 1-la --well Apparently frorn my reading of the tr Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 I Dr Gottlieb 4 don't think I can help you sort that out 5 Mr Maxwell 6 Perhaps you could go on to the next · ··-· - - - - · ·-·C ·-- ·• operation 7 Discussion off the record --v Mr Maxwell Dack on the record 9 t 'Y Dr Gottlieb· My recollection of he events that TSS 10 - i i __ j was involved in -- and I was not personally involved in this 11 C r I ·- i J 1 i I '· 1 C· lI i H ·i · l lC 1 ii 17 Discussion off the record n nack on the record Dr Gottlieb 0 0 0 N u a c· C It involves an er ployec of 'i' S nar icc l Dr Bortner who •i '· took 1 trir with a consultar t since dcccascc l called w - _· Dr Maitland Ualdwin The technique consisted of a confusion technique in - ·' interrogating prisont rs _-iuc w- 1s esic_ - csl to tlisoricnt without the use of ·any drugs and that -- confers wit - counsei • -TOP SECRET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 13 80 - ' -- which was designed to confuse and disorient the person being 1 interrogated to the point where he would C trol of what he said that might result in his releasing more 0 N lose the kind of con- j_ 0 'I 1 5 i 6 i 1 information than he intended to And my recollection is that there was at least one and I don't know how many more interrogations of this kind and that its results in terms of success or failure were indeterminate tion with drugs t- Dr Gottlieb No it was not 10 r0 - Mr Maxwell ·- _ - J _ - interrogation using this technique 12 Dr Gottlieb ·lhat do you mean by the other interroga- 0 a 1 l Do you recall the setting of the other tio Hr Maxwell You suid you recalled there wus at least _ Dr Gottlieb I J r 'i see here 17 I - 1 ii 0 Dut I don't know how many others nut again what I am saying is that I have no recollection of P-1 or any other TSS administered interrogation technique being used 0 0 'i said there was at least one and I ' ' 2· · ' I am not saying it wasn't done Off the record ' Discussion off the record - · • Dr Gottlieb Dack on the record I would also like to cor u ent 1bout this case n C ' that it reflects what I fairly confused sit- '· ' · J ' - -' ¢i ' -f C t _t • _· -·· ' S'° S ' ••-_• ·-· - r2t g I tf J jf ' t - - 4 - 8 8 a ' I I I ' a C 0 t - _ uation in terms of using the dryptonym J rtichoke in the If Ii jI sense that I saw several cables using the cable indicator Artichoke and also using that cable indicator to cover a whole ii t ii range of techniques not related to what I understood to be the I 5 i Artichoke narcohypnosis technique JI 6 Ii i Mr Maxwell In regard to the last comment Dr Gottlieb it appears that J rtichoke was used not only as the - - - - - - L l e _indicator but also in the text of the tclcgr 1ms -- - -- ---- _ __ __ __ __ - --- - -- 1 t' 1o • '1 themselves I I In the first telegram we have in the series it is used i ' 1 J Ii u calilc indicator of n ci'lble sent out on 21 September 1954 J nut it is 1lso used in the body Hhcn the cable iske l for the J ' n imcs of candidates proposed for handling llndcr J rtichokc pro- I· _ gri'lm c j · J · e · 0 The ci'lhlc is signed with l-lr llelr ls being the rclec ts- ing off iccr • t ' Later on i a nu cr of these i stances in the cable i· 1 • traffic r r llclms ippe 1rs as the relea sin J officer and the authenticating officer is not indicated it is Si'lnitizcd out - 0 0 C There arc scvcr 11 ca les that I would like your co n1 - e t J • - c i r - on if they trigger any recollection s i Dr Gottlieb · jurc 1- r 1-laxwcl 1 Thci -e i _a cahle that goes fro 1-lr Director Gottlieb -' '· Helms as the rclcusing officer which ·is d itcd 11 M y 197S ·or •i· It couldn't be that •N 15 0 0 0 ' ' e May 1955 1 Mr Maxwell 2 Paragraph 2 reads Excuse me 0 N View sensitivity program and considerable number can- C 0 t I '1 II didates proposed 5 I Request you establish priorities according I' I a potential for each case and b ease of disposal i e I I 6 I 7 I any candidates under death sentence I was wondering if you could comment on what that con- I I I r------- - -- - --tt- o -- y'4'0 'U - a-- s'----'C i i a r e S eJ e Ct ion Of Candidate S f Or 8 11 C'-· II these interrogations 9 ·1 II 1 ·-r 1 • It conveys two things to·me Dr Gottlieb One is that it clearly reminds or reinstructs or instructs the 11 1 J ' 1 '0 1 ' 'i station that these cases have to be approved on a case by •i ii •I 'I i ti 1 _ necessary in c ses of pccial interrogations like this and •1 'II C case basis not just as a gooup that 1-lr Helms' approval wa 1 t J 11 that what the handling of the agent would or could be after i It the interrogation was a matter for consideration 1 Ii Mr Maxwell I am not sure what that means l' ' or Gottlieb · ell it means to me that if the 1 relationship between the organization and the 1gent was CJCir _ C 0 C to be severed u ci for instance -- if the agent was going to be terminated or disposed of in the sense of saying our re lat ship is now finished c 1- we may owe you some money here it is but that is all that would be a security consideration 1n - '-- ' hethcr a special techniciue would be used or if i 1 some 0 manner some form of control over the agent could be establ1s 1 • -• r------- - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 8 0 16 I 1 ' in approving 0 N t ' i' l 2 C 0 € Mr Maxwell to the question of 4 ease of disposal and the·possibility that these individuals 5 arc under death sentence 6 Dr Gottlieb I i - I can't really help you on that I You can derive the same conclusion I can 7 from that if in fact they tt- w e re gcin_g__ e -11ndcr death-se-n-t e n c ee-aa-fiE c -Y -P-r n7' 7C't----n r- 1 3 8 4 c o - V 0 11 i 12 'I Ii I I ·f I I I all I c n say is that that would be a factor in whether I to choose them as subjects or not 10 C 1111111 9 I I I But whether it is a fact to say it is good to J Q C i • 1 C- c l J c·- 7 I t ' ing to say your interpretation of that is as good as mine -Ir i 1 Muxwcll I would like your interpretation based on ii your experience that you_had within the Agency i I ·' 1 1 '7 i IS choose them or no i t is not I can't comment on that I ar 1 try Mr Gottlieb I didn't have a lot of experience or realiy any that I can remember involving this kind of situation J 1 t I where somebody was under death sentence to be shot or some ' ' thing like that And although I read it here that that seems i 0 0 0 u ci c H I• 4 • ' G • to be the case i 'C s i - ii ' i-lr Maxwell l 22 i Off the record Discussion off the record 1 -- _ ·1 Mr Maxwell ·' i ' Back on the record It is not clear from the cable that in fact any of the 2 individuals being proposed for these interrogations were under # - ----- · --· I I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 --------0 0 0 I 17 ' ' death sentence 1 0 11 0 11 i 5 6 1' 1 II 11 7 i 11 9 11 10 11 Ii 11 -· ·- · I 12 iJ •• J ··-· death sentence Dr Gottlieb My response to that is I on that question because I have no comment don't feel as though I can give you anything but a s eculative answer It is range of my personal experience Mr Maxwell Hypothetically if an individual were under death sentence then there would be lit tlc or no secur- I ' I ity concern about the individual's later revealing the form 'I I• 0 a 3 I l'ihat importance would it be that an individual was under I J duc ils are under death sentence I ' ·y consideration and essentially asks whether any of the indivi- 11 C of disposal as a I N i _ The cable N ' 1 of the interrogation is that correct 1 Dr Gottlieb ' Mr Lenzner I I feel that is a hypothetical questio th ink I would have to say for the recon that we are getting into an area which we are now basing 1 ' ' hypothetical questions on an area that Dr Gottlieb has al- ready indicated a great deal of sensitivity toward both be- · -i 0 0 cc iuse he hasn't had c iny direct cxp rience with it and be- 0 o u ci cause of his sensitivity toward the news media reports that have linked him to a variety of incidents which have • · _ appeared in the press which stimulated his request to t 1e Comr ittee I 0 already that he be able to testify anonymously And as we know pending that request information was Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 cons dcrable concern regarding protectio of his family and _ · - - - - himscl f So I am going to advise him ot to an wer that question I 5 l 6 11 or any other questions that follow in this kind of pattern because I don't think that they are pertinent to the Committee's 1 i 7 8 i I 11 I• e t·· ·' ' 'i - ' - that we get a ruling from the Chairman of the Committee or the ·--·i · Com ittce 4_ in toto nd I will tell you very frar kly I really don't - -4 'I 0 1 nd I would i 10 line of questioning except perhaps curiosity 9 r• '- inquiry And I see no legislative purposP related to this understand the rurpose of this line of questioning Mr Maxwell C • I think we will hold this line of ques- tio ing i abeyance for now 1 I I do think though that because the line of quesion l · ' i · ing will be held in abeyance I don't think there will be an attempt now to explain the purpose of the uestion 0 Dr Gottlieb Can we go off the record 0 C u Discussion off the record 0 w Whereupon at 2 00 p m the in crview was adjourned ·· • · · • · - · • to rccon vcne at 2 15 p m in Roo 610 cai itol Hill Hotel i t · -t i xwell There· was one oore comment ·that I thi 1k •' G should b on the record in response to -tr Lcnzner' s corrun er t 0 nd concern about leaks in regard to Dr Gottlieb's tes i- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089' 19 e 0N actio 1 in order to determine if at all possible w cther the i mate ial that appeared i the_Hashington Post was given to the C 0 Pest by members of the Committee or the staff t The Co ittee obviously shares the concern about leaks 5 such as this And at this point not having to detennine the source the Committee is not ready to second Mr Lenzner's _as sc_ i -tio_n th t the information was apparently leaked by the 11 t '· _ ii 10 J D L members of the Committee or the staff Ii There arc several other que tions that I woulcl like to raise ibout the - i n t e r r o g a t - i o n s i t h you Dr Gottlicli 1 3H L-- i 9 C 12 d thut is it appears tlwt there w is a propos il to use P-1 in d this particuL1r intcrro9ation as well is possibly t hc tecl111iq1 H 0 3 l C 1 ic you h ive ckscribed po or to this ncl the telegram indicating that there was no CI objl ct- __ 10n -- o f the record ' · 1 Discussion off the record l-lr l·laxwe 11 There is no CIA objection to the use of P-1 if Dr Uortncr concurs 0 0 0 And that telegrilm Wil S relc i sed ' u by the Deputy C icf of TSS with the Acti 1g Chief of TSS D c C 5 - w ' • R search and Dcvclop cnt as the authentica tinrJ off iccr for The signinCJ off by those two individuals in t i3 case lcilvcs the r icprcssion that TSS had a part of the al'proval µrecess in ' '0 -·· reg a nl to P-l Dr Gottlieb It certainly did --- ----- -- -------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · - -· - 20 0 0 0 true over the course Mr • 1 of time in the use of P-1 _-· 2 Dr Gottlieb C 0 5 • · -· - · I think I should put in a word of comment or explanation here • When you speak o -the appr val process there were a I I t 6 7 number of approvals for various reasons Dut one of them II wa5 certainly the TSO approval about any technical aspects ----- lilt 5 - - -P- - - -c1- -u- - - -Y- - - -l- -o-h_i_ - -e-t- --oa_t_d_ - - - - - - -e-r 1_ - - - -h- - - -c- - -a- - 1s - -t- --_- -f ' ' ' t-h c 10 _ I I· ' _ 11 ·j1 I J L e 0 C C 12 1 1 - ' I case an l was never the go-ahec1d So in this case I would only have to say there had to be other cor vnents other cable r iessages because that would never hc1ve been enough for t e O Crution to go c1head i- r M 1xwcll Was TSS ever to the best of your knowlc 'I 1 1 lG L • l ' j ·' · I j 1 t i · 0 0 0 i u c C Dr Gottlieb My answer to that would he abs6lutcly I mean wc1s it actually ever overridden I cc1n't mention case and chapter and verse but I ar i sure that happened There arc often disagreements 0 C interrogc1tion 11 ii ovcrridd n· in rcgar l to a rccor vncndatio it mode about P-1 - r ' l 2 _ -1 i xwcll l d the disagrccr ents would signify that T was maxing a recommendation Dr Gottlieb That TSS was saying from a technical point • of view this scc s like a sound thing to do -lr 1-1 1 xwcll l nd the operational Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 e 1 ' 0 - 2 C 0 ··· -· c uld have said from the importance of this case it is just - · · _ - • ot worth using this Mr Maxwell In reverse was TSS ever in a position to the best of your knowledge of saying on a technical 6 side this wouldn't clo but having that decision reversed 7 by operational officers who indicated that because of for - S __ ' -i_n_ s_t_a n c_e _ __ the i portance of the case that an effort should I 1 - be mnde I t Dr Gottlieb •- · C J l •· That would be very unlikely I don't remember whether it happened or not but I can only say that would be very unlikely a - - I • ' I ' u i 0 on Dr Cottlie - ' to the next opcr ition ' _· · - - ·- C ll nd I have re«d thb ---m-cmo J nd it hrings nothing to my memory I know nothing nbout it Mr - a wcll Do you rec ill any P-1 interrogations th J t w - e - 1' JA1 C · now about this case and can't remember ever having known 0 0 c i Would you 90 _ ·- · - · ' ·_ nnclum Mr H i we 11 were performed Dr Gottlieb · r axwcll I do not Do you recall any P-1 interrogatio s in Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · ' e Dr Gottlieb No I do not 1 Mr Maxwell 0 2 Will you go on to the next case 0 s Dr Gottlieb The next case is l a b c l e I 5 A 3 r f -5 - _ 5 Off the record G Discussion off the record 7 Mr Maxwell Dack on the record or Gottlieb --0 and myself and my remembrance now involved both c L' r Hy general remembrance of this operation that he was there by himself for a while an l I carae in later So I think I was in on only one or two of the three J 0 J l -- interrogations that ere done From my rereading of this that was my remembrance 1 - _ c l I -' r- ··---j- -·-- - - - - - - - - ' J l - i' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 l C 0 13 9 10 lJ J 1 C L • D and left l r- ' •' He completed the interrogations and wrote up reports The re a re o hc I j details in here that I think stand on themselves I remcr 1bcr further that · _ · tall times referring to what Dr Gottlieb · · Let me withdraw that I ar i not 0 0 ' _ 0 u ' C 0 C - J • J 2 L c' ' - · - r lil XWe 11 You sai l that it w is a provcd in tr e 0 · · • - - 'I-- ·- -t i _ - ' i _ _ - ____ pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · · • - _ • ' - • - · · ' ·- ii- t t 8' ' t - ' § II I ' ' 0 - Jtffitt1rt i l tiff t ' 'r ·- •-·1 · I' I' Ii 0 way• 0 - i •a· ·-'·· - N 1 2 - i I C 0 Do you recall what the approval as Dr Gottlieb Not specifically I just recall that there I I a series of approvals 1 nd my remembrance is that there wasj I •I DDP approval Mr Maxwell There arc some questions that I would like to ask you about materials in the file There is a cable which I goes f r o r _ _ o the Director dated 5 Il M 1rcnt'l 1 nd ------- ----- -- i t carries the cable indicator HILLTOP Perhaps you might ex- -- - plain as best you can remember what that signified Dr Gottlieb Again I can only comment that it illus- cJ L i e - ' 0 0 1 l tt·a tes sor 1e confusion To r 1y mind HILLTOP was never a cable ·' 1 'I indicator but rather a cryptonyrn that referred to a group of ' C- J bchaviorable control oriented research activities and not ·1 c a cable indicator 1 - i·lr Max1 cll rcrha s you r iight expand on what IIILLTOP r- - meont just perhaps it will make the record a little clearer here l little bit ·And we will come back to it 0 0 0 · • Dr Gottlieb Well ny cenory wns stinulated not so V ci cC _ '· C much by thnt but by other things you gave ne to read yester y and today _ But as I put it together now QKIIILLTOP 1 ·as a cryp- tonyrn l1ich seemed to supplant Artichoke in the sense that ' - it as given to a coordination activity which includctl a lot of research activities having to do with the behavioral centre 0 r - t also could have been an2 prob bly was the name of --------------------- ------- T-0-P- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · - -· _ _ ·- · _ - - whose u hrella this group of behaviorable activities came 2 Mr Maxwell C The behaviorable activity would consist of t Dr Gottlieb 5 the material you gave me to 6 C oJ 'I 0 C for a precise package of any kind that secraed to come into • - I use ond go out at a certain period to be supplanted byeJ TRJ • ll t I I Ll I also included undcr-·i -f don't remember7TTLCTep-being usefu --'t - 11 10 1 IJ ___ I referring to is narcohypnosis interrogation tcchni ues were jl 9 l'2_ seemed to indicate that at one time what we have been talking about -- what we have been 8 · ad 7 '- Hell P-1 research l -2 research And ·- I 1 ' I or some other l't· r_ I l Ml' ' Maxwell I Do you recall the time when you first became I Zl Jarc of it an l whe 1 to the best of your recollection it 1 C· D •- J - ' ' · r· 0 0 C u 0 c c Dr Gottlieb I would be glad to do that now have a file -- I couldn't ick i t out now -- that I i You think makes a much better focus for us to discuss this nround f i C e l oway · J nd I would be glad to do that1 · -lr Maxwell The c il Jlc that I referred to indicate ' · ·- th 1 t 200 units of P-1 were given to subject number one •r•J · • aml that this precipitated severe classic paranoid rcactio 1 · -· The subject believed that light bulbs were cnitting · 7 - · - i· hot and · ' · _ '- -- cold rays to produce scientific death and told the quard ·t that someone was trying to read his mind and went into - a _ ' _ · --·'· TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 2022 02 01 C00095089 f c i1 l 0 - 00 ' 1 schizophrenic eactio ' t II d tha ccurred in previous P-1 2 experiments to the best of your knowledge or in P-1 research 3 being done within the U S · ' · 1 f t x5 •- · · · i 0 t • C 0 € Dr Gottlieb r It indicates that a doctor was called ' ' ' ·-- •- - ' - i nd unwitting after this reaction set in and the doctor was 6 the doctor diagnosed the subject as mentally ill 7 L'1 -2 C L- C 9 III· subject labeled as it apparently was done in order to have the I 10 I' I i l 0 1 · 1 er 3 0 l l t r in the mentally ill which would allow him to be discredited eyes of the group with which he had been working Has this technique to the best of your knowledge used I in other P-1 interrogations Mr Lenzner i 1 I 'I I Can I interrupt a second recall seeing the language that an examination was done for the record nut I don't recall the additional lan JU l Jt with regard to discrediting · Is the language that you are referring t0 pending fur1_ r· C 0 0 ' 1 ' ther di cussion plan to exploit incidc 1t to divide PD group Mr Maxwell 2· Yes Mr Lenzner What does PD stand or # - 2 ' 0 t-- I 1 C record And this was done to have the incident a matter of J L And 8 11 I L I· J I really don't remember that detail Mr Maxwell 5 D 26 - - Mr Maxwell I think that referred to this grouµ he belonged to r Lcnzner And the question is was that a tcchniqu• •t _ that was used in other cases you know of Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 I don't remember it ' L lj • nd it certainly does 10 not refer to a category but rather to the interro- _ C L 0 13 1 i c 11 gations II under an operational project is what I would read ti Ii I that as I Mr Maxwell There is a report which indicates that I 15 you arrived in 0 lF d-2 -II 1 3 a l4 0 And C17 I lii 1 ' i1 on the 12th of February in 195G you were referred to at that time by Do you recall that at all Dr Gottlieb 0 0 0 ' u i ci c· - i• 51 •• ji J 1' w • • - me I 0 S II1 vi -•· • · i - That does not bring back any memory to Mr Maxwell My understanding from the matcri_als is thc1t you stayed there until the early part of March Dr Gottlieb When docs it say that I arrived Mr Maxwell 12 February Dr Gottlieb I didn't that I was there quite --------- it·-- --- ---· ll Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 8 2a 0 G that long 1 -·- • 0 2 I 0 t of 7 March 1956 that the success f the interrogation subject i one was given a glass of water but appeared to be suspicious 6 7 - · - - - - - -- 8 T ere is also an indication on the report i · 11 5 Mr Maxwell I I t of its contents did however drink it after some hcsi- Ile I I tation nd the note said this was the first instance that any target p 'rson was suspicious of the food or drink Up until then in the intc -ro ation that_you had_bcen in olvcd__i I 9 1 10 l • G C ' ll J I I Ip I or had been told about had there been any breakdowns in ecurity ' Dr Gottlieb 2 ii1i Mr j · Dr Gottlieb 'i l · ' 0 c '• Yes t ot to my remembrance of sor iebody feeling_ '· th i t they r iight be attacked this w_ay 1 1 c-· Maxwell Of this kind Ir Max - •ell -Has this a prime onsidcrotion onithc· - f 11 l j l p ut after -- what was the general' metnod of a lministerin9 1' -1 1 ' 1 · I £ r I l -2 Dr Gottlieb 0 C __ - ' a r •Dy putt-inry' Lff Small amount of liquid solu- tion of it in another's food or drink C ' - - ' 0 r tion or - axwell q1 ike there my problem about health altcra-- _ causing a dccor 1posi tion of the cheml - IR • Dr Gottlieb · -· ·las I don't remember tha t _exactly ·--·acre- wh«t remembrance I have tells me it was rath r stable in that · respect of it - That could be wrong I don't have Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 c' l clear meraory 29 0 0 0 - 11 ' ' 1 I Mr Maxwell In that same report it indicates that the 0 subject was required to stand for a long period of time r t three and a half hours in what was described as a humid stif- C 0 If ling smoke-filled interrogation room S Was it the use pattern to enhance the effect of P-1 or A-2 with physical stress Dr Gottlieb I would say that was not the usual pattern 7 f--------- -----H------LDlllut-it crn1Jd ha-'Le___bcen dcpeocli-_n__g_ upon what the operational I don't remember that as being the use pattern aim was c I • It I• 1 · Ii might have been also for the purpose of givinq the person being interrogated some other reason to attribute some strange J - feelings he might have In other words gi· -ing some -- for security reasons so t J ' c he shot1ldn't attribute it to a drug that was administered l ' • r Ma we 11 Or to the difference in treatment by C difference in operation of aim -- how would you describe the 1 · ' different treatments as they related to different operational aims Dr Gottlieb What I really had reference to is that C • different interrogators of different interrogation times l1k to nocced in di f fc rcn t ways to from reading this t - So as you probubly rcferre like to have a friendly interrogator an unfriendly one And if that was this scenario then this slitJln 1ihysicc1l stress would be brought in as r art of t hei Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 iri- - ' 2 J w _ _ - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 -- ---- - - - -- 0 0 30 0 f is the sort of thinq I meant ' 0 Mr Maxwell ere is a 1 March 1956 r e p o r i • 0 1 1 •I 5 1' j 6 I I I If I Was thot normal practice after -- •I - - - - - - - - Gottlieb Ii I think so We wanted to know in terms -----·--------- Mr Maxwell Would it be usual for the· comments in these J L G reports to be passed along to TSD 0 Dr Gottlieb Oh yes 'I· • ir · 11 1 nd this Wil5 csscnl i 11 ly o fccdbild mcchonisrn so thilt rou could ir iprovc h t yoll were doing Dr L -lclXWC Gottlieb 'cs Mr Maxwell In paragraph 3 it notes that ' If one sswnes thil c t i vi tics should be con-- 0 0 0 - C i ' - ' 10 fJ' • ·- •- v -- du-etc l -i n interroga tions there is _need_ Q •ll Ore gencrc' l l knowlcd9e as to the b nefi ts and problems one can expect _ in• thei r pp 1 _i J ii J To the best of your knowledge did TSD or ot cr arcs n the Geney proceec U On this -ic1vic ' to provide mo -c inEorr i- •' e - t i o r - bout the c ip ibilitic anu the 2roblcr is benefits that could be rc aincd Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · i -i 31 0 0 0 ' 0 Dr Got tl eb l ' ' 0 1 V Could you reread that to me I didn't quite understanc it in the way your question st ems o imply you i· did V C 0 I Mr Maxwell s I will read the whofc section Or I will read it if you would like Dr Gottlieb i· p 6 7 1i I i - J 0 ' C If one ass umes -tha-t a cti vi ties there is u need fo more gcnerul knowledge a s to the benefits and problems one can expect in their application • 1' I I ·' Mr Muxwell mhould be conducted in interrogutions j - me to that could be drawn here is that control conclusion li itcd training o j J s to Lile avuiluhility responsibility C q ilnd nature of the dru _ s might be considered · J De Gottlieb l nd your CJuestion c ' · Mr · i l 1 x· ell 1s -- h'hcther TSO or any other pui t of the gency rcspo_nuccl to this suggestion or ur39cstions such ilS tv as to the availability ' and nature of the drugs C Dr Gottlieb 0 0 I think -- I woulc ln' t be able to ar s c - hcther this p irticul ir su99cstion IS responded to Out during this period - hen we felt c ere JCttinCJ more cxperi c · anu information about the effectivcnc s and other properties of P-1 we certainly did to an increasing extent try to na - · present and future aware o this capability r axwell The report goes on Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 - A specialist in interrogation should be available to 1 0 N 2 j_ I all stations that mount interrogation operations 11 ij 11 ij C 0 t Was there any action along this line 'I Dr Gottlieb I think we would feel that we were in agr e- ment with that Mr Maxwell Were interrogation teams or individuals held 6 1 3 a 4 c out as ready to 7 8 Dr Gottlieb Well you have to understand what they -- 'C------------------·---------------- -- 9 L 11 i l l r · • H i· J ' • They could have meant they are either experienced I interrogators with respect to P-1 or they could have meant the i I psychologists with some experience in P-1 nut I think in ei j i i• a a mean either case that kind of resource was available for P-1 inWhat I am trying to say is this was not a l -- terrogations 1 suggestion that kicked off a new li 1e of c1ctivity Mr Max well nut it encouraged a Dr Gottlieb It sort of was approving what we had done here I think i · 0 0 C ' j ' l · c ' There also is an indication in the re- port that the writer advises that Any iJerson who is to interrogate someone under the influence of the drugs should have · w Mr Maxwell r • r_ -· the experience of taking the drug prior to that occasion Was that true of any of -- of all of the P-1 interro 0tions that you are aware of that the individual who was - involved in it had h 1 l some experience with the drug C ' Dr Gottlieb No If by in vol vecl in - •- ------ ------- ---- ---- ------ -------------- _ • ' - - • -- f '- - - - L · - cz -- - iJ ' - -- - · pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 0 l a or the person 1t tr e - w h o is i I 0 II 2 u 5 t I IIii closest to the operation the a swer to that is no Mr axwell Would the person I t I 'I be closer to the operation-than the person who had ildministered the I 'I 5 1 drug I 1 6 i1 7 J Dr Gottlieb J That is a hard question to answer would certainly be closer to the lie b ickground of I 8 the o era tion - -------- H ---i - ' j w • · l II wouldn't have Ii · Mr • Let me put it another way fould it be expected that the persons who administered• J - · - 2 ·· _ I 1-la wcll '-·• the things which people like _thc_5'SD ___pcopl _· - ' while the interrogation w ' ls going on · D • -lr i·laxwell l· ould it e r iore likely that the persons- _ I G the dru9 would be available ilt illl tir 1cs for co isultation wi l1 Gottlieb Definitely •'who administered the drucj· outd-l e involved in observing i • the re 1ction of the subject and with th Dr Gottlieb Not nccessari ly I think they 1 'ould both have c1n cquill interest i·lr who - i s 1a · - e 11 Out the c1ssumptio 1 was not that the persc 1 doing the administering would b c - f per e it' i i more qu ilificd to be the observc ec1cti ' Dr Cott l icb e 11 I thin iis' iritcrcst e REr-· Approved 'tor Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 ·jf L- ·as -•'in Y 't 1'1J 11 ' ·1 34 0 0 0 - 1 his interest was a little more in what information was comin 2 out and how the interrogation was going 0 N u _ u Mr Maxwell C € In paragrap 12 there is another suggestio that the writer makes which is that the target should be under a 24-hour per day observation I II The writer also indicates that detailed observation reports concerning the target should 6 i be _made I_t _comments_ on the_excellent _ _report that were done in 11 i 9 this interrogation and suggests Was it a requirement of the P-1 interrogations that there' I 1 i i be such reports and thdt there be 24-hour observation of the I t· subjects Gottlieb Dr J ment L '· I '•· '• • · i 1 ' • I don't know -that I would c 111 it a require- It was certainly a recommended procedure Mr Maxwell C Were there instances that you are aware of Jhere that was not followed D Gottlieb I find it hard to answer that because I wasn't present at all of ther 1 nut my Jeneral remembrance is by and large that was followed Mr MO X vell 1 thouqh you wcren' t present then would ii be usu l or likely or you to receive reports of r-1 intcrro·· · · g 1tions if you were not present Jiven your interest and r • expertise - i helpful in the future 1 • that they would be very Dr Gottlieb t r 1' ax ·e l l I would s 1y it was likely yes If yuu 'ere ot present would it be · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 35 0 0 0 - ' likely that the reports would come back to the headquarters 1 0 division to which the station reported and that the reports N 2 C0 € ' would be distributed there as well as to TSO because of TSD's interest in this technical interrogation ·i Dr Gottlieb Well depending upon how sensitive they thought the case was they would either do that or have me or 6 someone else come over and read it 7 the suggestion that both the interrogator and target should be under observation in order that either ··• the P-1 • J t · - administrat0r should be watching both the people who 11-cre • j doing the interrogation and the subject in order that the person essentially in charge of it would h 1ve the best sense l l of how the operation was going in regard to the technical l - L ' aspects In regard to the P-1 interrogations about which you are t·• knowledgeable was it in the interest of TSO or yourself to attempt to kind of watch the interrogation as processed in orJcr M 0 0 to learn about the effects of P-1 or how it miyht be done C bette rather than the particular operational intelligence t at was gained Dr Gottlieb - - - The answer to that is yes It W J S lon J question but if I stuck v ·ith the threatl of 'hat you meant the answer is ye Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 a J ' iJtV r - t - •· ' 36 0 0 0 - ' 1 I how 0 u 'i u C 0 2 I I Mr Maxwell So essentially what you were lea ning is this worked I 't Dr Gottlieb Yes improving the· technique Mr Maxwell If you can recall your perception in mid- j' iilj March of 1956 what was your perception of how effective these 5 II were as interrogations as aids 1 3 a 4 ' 47 i - ·- - 11 I don't have a clear recollection of thatj - Dr 'Gottlieb - I_ 0 I i 8 -- -- nut from what I read in that file I think we are rather pleased Ii 9 I i -0 J that it was an effective helpful thin - 1 - - Mr Maxwell The report notes the same set of symptoms J _ that I described in an earlier 0 a concerned ab0ut scientific death anc l havinc to be carried 1 -- to the interrogation room and the like telegram of an individual J ·- 1 L Do you recall other incidents similar to this in other P-1 interrogations l - ' ·- I 1 · ·i 1 · _ Mr Maxwell M lu 1 3 a 4l lhat No Dr Gottlieb I In paragraph 19 of the report it indicates it would be beneficial if gations conducted in the field which involve the use _t 0 C aids r • ·- 0 This would be in order that would gain the benefit of more expert analysis g1 3 a could analyze interro- c-· •-· ' it ·- - Does the use of the r 1 a t e r i a l - - i n this way and simi- I•' lar - fi --r· way5 trigger -· · _ t Dr Gottlieb It would seem now to mean that it 1s thf• - - - _ ·t - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 -- ·' ' i f 0 0 0 1 G 3 I I _ N I j j-' Jiiifr rt sf ' ' · 37 C 0 N 0 i ii ii 1 1 1 r 6 J JI ii•I - i 7 ---· 8 'i So it would be limited to thut D - Gottlieb It sounds that wuy s you read these things it seemed to me t h e e r c d to be that rather than vh t I men tioncd be fore M - i - - -- t·iaX - ell Maxwell Does this help at all in reconstructinry how you thought IIILLTOP would fill into the operation ---------- -------- - - - - - ------ - - - - -- ---- - - D - Gottlieb It only udds to the confusion that- I -ha e 1 on it ould be my hone$t answer 9 There is one paragraph that is remarkably J' '-· ' clear t r c And I would like your thoughts about it It J C ·· 4 · · · _ D - Gottlieb ' · ' I ar i orry I re illy cun't help you Those a -c two cryptonyms that I don't recognize now And I · could have some spcculutive thoughts but so could you M Ma well Off the record 0 0 Jiscussion off the record V ci • -lo WC 11 - Ot1ck on t ie rccon1 It h is been noted that the report indicates that • s •' e Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 i JS J 1 II According to your recollection would it be likely that I QKIIILLTOP would have analyzed such O erations 1 Ii I Since I am confused about what QKIIILLTOP Dr Gottlieb · i I is I have trouble ans cring that If we can define that as j' ' an generic reference to the fact that they would hope or l I' Il - 6 7 ii recommend that a cognizant unit at headquar -ters involved in thi kind of activity analize it I think it would be likely sur -c Ii --- ------ - _ ------ --- Mr Maxwell This report of 19 April 195G about this same project describes the sym toms of one of the individuals '- The answers weren't cleai c -· lie would shout unintelli- qibly whimper or shake his head or refuse to soy a word Jr 1sr L J e c - J If tho e symptoms h'Crc r 1zrn1 rested a d you be licve l t cr -- -t - -· to huvc· been real what would your rcsi onsi h ' lve been The difficulty I undcr5tnnd in going over these is '· l ' i · trying to recall-what Mr Lenzner -11 s I underst in l you i rc cJsking him if he 1 ·-- 1 his hcar -t and moan observed a person -rcs ndi11g-that way u ic r this drug Or - Gottlieb nd if I thou ht the we c ical I took that to mean that they were not related to the drug huL the _ri1an was huving heurt trouble Mr I enzner I • - As I understand the question how woul you respond if you observed r o t t l i Cb somebody -under the influence of Lt is hurd for r ie to answer sort of --· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 - ' _ - 39 If I was watching that and thought the man was crisply 1 2 really in medical trouble was provided 1 would see that medical help nut if I thought in some way this was a reac- tion that didn't involve his real health but he was imagining 1 t I things in this LSD experience he was having I would wait a 5 I 6 i while I would lean in the directi _ on of having him examined Mr Maxwell The report goes on wit regard to the - - 7 _ -- - - second subject who interrogation of a ttshowed considerable evidence that he was opposed to e II 11 · g the transfer and considered it illegal 1 •• 'l ' ·· - 10 Would it be a correct undcrstandinq of the situation in i 11 ii J - '---·· C 1 3 a i I interroqatiun go forward with i n to whethe1· to determination as subjects such as this by the protests were if there province outside of your would that be I Cl- l -- C 3 l • r_ 1 · or Gottlieb That would be my understanding -· I would muke the which you involved yourself that 1 r Mr Maxwell If you have any information or can ls there J ' ·- make a comment about this it might be helpful 1 '· detemine to your knowledge any requirement 0 0 the legality o f 0 N taken against an is asked for assistance individual if w J - I · Dr Gottlieb I can't answer that I just don't know t certainly was not -- it was an arP th t e assumed was - I I I O I 0 40 0 0 0 ' Je appa·rently in 1 ' Mr Maxwell 2 G C • Dr Gottlieb 0 5 II l t You can't recall raising the question - I can't recall any information that I have that would help answer that question I I' fl 5 11 Mr Lenzner Was the question would the Cil check 6 II Mr Maxwell Whether he has any information as to whether lt i ' I i 'I· -7 Q The legality of the detention of the I Mr Maxwell c 1 ' J - target 1 S a 4 t • li 9 - c Mr Lenzner i V i t was _Cil policy to detei -mine _independently __ 11 ' i i ' · J 1 0 a l ti r 1-1 c l nd my_answer was that I don't know Dr Gottlieb Maxwel 1 Putting aside the question of policy p i1 do you have any information as to the efforts that were made 1i L i _ in that area by either people tdy to an arca or by station 11 lG r ' 1 ij personnel 1 •' Dr Gottlieb I have no information 'I M 0 C' 0 Mr Maxwell 1 · · 0 N v Off the rccord ci_ i- C· _ ·· ' e s - · Mr 2 i M 1 x1velL · · Back on th record -· c a i ' ' repo J r o of i Ji0id 1iA 1' 0 A _·_i - _ · l l '_ _· · · ··· · · - - iil s ' - r ' ·t _l - - - o•· · - ' g · h• · · c ·-· _ 1 '1 ' h_' · ' 7 - f a 5 · ti i e irig ·subj' ei ed t t - -· f -- - f - · - -at· he kE pt - U sking _· · · s Ci C ti f f a c octo _ -- - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 r i · § t · i · i dl th • and finally f · Ci -a _P Ovi d _ t - ------- ------ -- 41 I 0 0 0 'f e 0r r a doctor 1 nd the report notes that na the situations became - ii avoilablc it i-i being whis'percd to the 'prisoners that the i subject is 0 t i l poranoi l or is mentally unbalanced The report goes on i - The reactions on this are mixed but there is not doubt · J that the subject was going to be observed by his fellow prison- ' 6 crs and it is hoped that this campoign to impute mental ii 1nstob1l1ty will bear fruit in the lon run y causing 0 9 dissention among the prisoners L 1 l '-- instances of such a techni JUe being used J t ·_ Is that added information -- do you recall any other Dr Gottlieb No This operation in itself was not enormously 0 ' i long i And yet the flow of reports goes for quite some time Preparations opparently begon in December 1955 and reports _ continued up tl1rough June of 195G Was it usual to have operations of this duration in r-1 interrogations or were ther l ' 1 normolly shorter Dr Cot lieb C 0 I don't think in my mind there was that 0 nu Jer of different ones to make a gener lization like that That would de re ncl on the tho roughnes S e Of the Stat ion the Si -' al_ specific conditions that th Y ere tcying to cope with _ • J i'- rit 0 0 0 42 - 1 ' @ ' 0 i I don't think I can C r 1 t 0 give a general ctnswer to that question Mr -1axwell l Do you recall any_ tcchnial gains that yoc or TSO derived from thls particular interrogation i I• 'I l1 6 j1 Dr Gottlieb I I ·' I -D 1 3 a 4 L- 1 · There was a lot of activity at a time when we hudn't had much field expericn c j 1 c Dut we had to learn something from it that we felt was us ful in later o 1es 1 5 don't recall· any specific gains Mr Ha - well It indicutcs -- the report of 9 J' ly indi- cotes that there were cor ment s by a 1d your se 1 f J L l to the effect thut they considered tcchnic il is2ccts of - 0 C or tha 1 casurccl up to their oriqin il expcctatio s - _ l c - 2 · -Could you rccull at all wh - it your e icctations mi Jht have 1 Jce 1 Dr Gottlieb I think our expcctatior s were probably LI moclcs t and the success of thes c in tcrroga ions exceeded thcrn ' I - Off the record 1 Discussion off the record 0 r u ci c - ' L - In qcneral how do you think your CX ectations changc_ovcr _ __ _s_- - time in regard to the uscfulnes of P-1 o other drugs in w -- - · - · interrog itions Dr Gottlieb - cl if you will let e cover a ·1 iuch· ·i longe - pcrioc c tiw c than his one involves there as a TOP 'Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 - ' ' 0 N z 2 u C 0 43 _ '·_ continuum if I can call it that at one end of which was 1 ' I if not an expectation the possibility of this material being I something you administered to somebody who later when he is II asked questions simply gives answers where he wouldn't before I 1 r • 1 i 11 I 5 That is one end of the spectrum I 6 The other end of the spectrum was that the material had 1 · I no specific effect on interrogation but what it did wac c _s__________ 11 to create a caricature of a •person's normal personality so that 8 '- l 9 Ii a skilled interrogator or 11 I nesses that are now caricature l •i li I' Mr Maxwel 1 1 The report of 9 July indicates that • J ·I one of the reasons they were pleased with the operation at the ii r li• H e C'J - 1 9 8 47 psychologist can exploit the weak- o l° - i S J • c i I is that there were no flaps whatsoever And by that take it there were no breaks in security e 1 Do you recall any instances in your experience with 1 L l ' j drug interrogations or knowledge about them conducted others of substantial problems in security g ----- 0 -· Dr Gottlieb ' I don't think I can recall any I was trying to rake over in my mind the ones I have read here - ' ·1 '-··· the 1953 ones I can't recall any You are talking about an I · r ' - incident that hazarded the security of the operation I '-·· don't think so Mr Maxwell The last in this series that I woul l f - - - - - - - - - - · - C - - - - - - - - - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 44 0 0 0 ' e ' And it s described as l like to go over with you is undated r a narrctive of interogation of simply Subject• 0 « i V And on page 3 it indicates that C 0 Subject's food was delivered to him after the inter view with 300 micrograms of P-1 in his stew a no 200 microg i ams - I • I in his soup Ile drank all of his soup and barely touched the 6 7 stew When the interrogation was resumed it was apparent that I ' S '· the most marked re ction he had had was setting in · 1· I wa s wondering how you would compare the use -- the · i i · ··-' l ' t ·· J L a ' Otcntial use of 500 micrograms of LSD with what you had been describi g as the self-administered dose that you and your collca yucs were using between 60 and 100 micrograms Dr Gottlieb I hink nur ibcr one - t hc period that I Js t al ing about -1ith my colleagues was in 1952-5 l L ' J L · a s i n 1 9 5 6 l nd this I don't remember the specific answci - nut I ' -Ould imagine that • Jc to thnt had information from the people we were Horking - ith on contract c bout what those effects were ' nd we felt that that was a reasonable level to go· u 1 to to acquire more information 'The r 1 t file is labeled l ILL7OP Interrogation c '· Hr - file 1 1956 1-tc1 - ·cll I think I may be able to save us sorac ti -- ' in reyard to that if I can provide some setting for it - The file i cludes a r port on the minutes of the Klll · ·1 · ----- ·---· workin co -Jnit tee meetins c a c l 7 May 1956 ind h s Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 ' Sa 1 J·_ 0 0 0 ' e a routins slip and an office memorandum '0 T e office memor- andum is r o o d a t e d 11 l-tay 1956 1 S a 4 2 0 C-- Can you get more info on this before we take it up 5 1 with Helrr s 7 then we may have to work with just this And it is signed with 1 3 a 4J li C If not initials Apparently there is written in hand to f Td' tlcn whether he had heard any more ab6ilt-t is 13 N a note asking And there· is a-n te'- indicating that it And on the next page-Dr Gottlieb I have lost you on t h e - - - l ' · rc crcnce • ' l 4 nr i·l i Hell - name comes on the office 0 ' Where lacs his name come in •· J mer iora ndur lrnd arrarcntly the sequence is th -it the IIILLTOr 1 3 a 4l c__- intcrroga tion was rerorted to the Office of Security was ·· r ma de available tn the Office of Security And · was rc1isiny the issue of whether the HILLTOP interrog tions as 1 ' they were referred to should not have come through the Arti 0 0 0 choke procedures ' ' · ntl the ci tra nsmitt 1l slip w 1ich is elated May 14 in- t icates that -- correction -- the office mclllOrandum is - h s a C · •I 1pparently 17 May cntly the transmitt 1l slip is 14 Hay and PP' ·- ca lled the IIILL'i'OP minutes to the attention of r- r aan crman who c llcd them to the attention of _- The tr 1 -1smittal slip attached to the minutes says ''f _ _ - - - - - - · - - - - - - - - - ----- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 COOo iis089 0 4G 0 0 _ 0 @ 1 N te area outlined in red 2 Th t can be found on pages 6 and 7 of the minutes 0 5 on JOCS £ 1 It Isn't this an activity which under rtichoke requires 5 ·1 jointSO Security Office medical-DDP approval I' 'I G nc apparently it went to l l r a i s e d it w i t h and I 7 1 8 on I tc1kc it 9 i lC· l jl ----- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 - the area outlined in red which refers to some 11 0 asking for more informatioJ in terro9ctions and su Jgcsts that it will be taken up with nr llelms ilpp nently as to whether this was apparently outside_ 1 of the 1 tichokc mechanism J Arc you asking me to read what is Dr Gottlieb outlined here Ok2y j_ ' ' ·'-•' Apparently from the memorandum at least o c Mr_ -iaX vC 11 · of the ir terrog 1tions that is bein J referred to is the one L 1 · thi1 t Can you recall any other interrogations that were done C under ll i LTOP aus ices prior to this 0 Dr Cottlieb else 2 e No I am assumin it racc1ns somethiny It rr c lns that there was more thc n one interrogation done in this exercise the two interrogation-s althou'gh I knew there are three You arc assuraing that it is two separate operatio s and I am saying it could just as well have been tJo interrogations anrl that one operation ------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - ------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 --------- -------- 47 0 0 0 ' 0 Anyway I could make the answer more equivocal by say- 1 0 N 0 ing that I don't remember another P-1 at th t time Mr Maxwell Off the record Discussion off the record t t Mr Maxwell 'i I Ii li 6 Dack on the record The area outlin2d in the memorandum relates to operationai 1 --- a -------- LJ- --a s ssc-lic-Js t t ial--l' n1 c _00-- -A ad · t ii·j Has reported thil t two field trials using psychochemic ls 1 8 i '1 II ' 10 L'-- l Dr Gottlieb reported th t these ho l been J r was planned to ·con tinuc to g i vc this ''ass i st i ti'i e where indic i tel and possible • I• ' • an o djunct to interrogation had been tried u nd it u S 9 largely successful from the standpoint of being able to t ike 0 J wc1nted to know if the c1tlr 1i ni str 1tion of drugs had been h i -idle by ·· 1- recognized medical men Dr Gottlieb indicaLed thil t this was impossible unt lcr the ci rcurr stances 1-icuical specialists were consulted hut 1-1 D 's did not actively participate i 1 i '• the interrogations e _ rx _ nn stated that ··ve should consider· _h1 0 0 cL nger involve d in not using i1 0'r 1ml that c•Jcn in ccrt 1i1L- 1 C for ign a re i s - · -o ·•s ·cu 1· be ·prov idccl to wor c with these µroj ect and we oust be prcµ ired to 1ccou 1t for unfortunate reactions • lie emphasized strongly that i this should be·takcn into consider t ion nd Dr · G6tt'-l i cb· i idi ca ted that Y-1e-• d i l have this co 1c r 0 and that it h H l becn t ikcn ·into account - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 ' e 1 0 2 2 1 that the re were two separate fie_ld tci _11ls rather than two II interrogutions within -- i t is my understanding that -- ii I I ' ' C I 0 ' 48 Dr Gottlieb There was another one I don't remember which at thut time I 5 ll Mr Muxwell In ar y of the P-1 interrogations which you i G I' I either participuted in or knew about were medical doctors i used I 'I Ii ·· Mr Maxwell Dr Gottlieb setting _ L Things which happened in an operational let's say it I J 0 Or operational testing • I 1 1 Not to my recollection Mr 1 1xwcll It indicates thut you said thut medical specialists were consulted Do you recall what you meant '- ' F ' 'I · · ' by thc1t Dr Gottlieb Well I don't ccrtai ly specially recall what I meant then when I said that nut I could have m-2ant that the people doing the research ar d fror l whom we 0 0 0 r j · are getting the basic information and guidance were medical specialists C -Ir MaX vCll This i - licates that apparently the Offi e of Security believed that J rtichoke and the Artichoke proccc u1·• r that had been agreed upon in a series of racmos that we dis- cussed I luring the first sessions of the de sition govcrne1 the operational use of psychochemicals Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 I take it this was v g - 49 0 ' your understanding and that i t continues not to be your under- l 0 ' C 0 II III I IiI standing i 'I 5 i 6 I Dr Gottlieb nut we certainly did not clear that meeting at that time those P-1 operational activities with this Committee If you 1 I ask me why we didn't I suppose we considered them operation- ' Uy bc-------- -L · ii 8 I don't remember again the specifics of and t - s a prerogative of the operators whQ__yere in_ ____ _ control And i t wasn't up to us to surface them this way 11 I I 1 9 - - ii r- 10 - i i i '-· C · J •• i Mr Maxwell Did you clear it with the Office of Security Dr Gottlieb You mean in the sense of coordinating J • I like an Artichoke setting I C lr t1c1xwe 11 tlot necessarily us part of a formal 1 i I J ' r committee but this was brought to the attention -Dr Gottlieb no unless there was some special aspect of it that we felt concerned the security office ' I L· - lr Maxwell Do you recall that happening 1' - • t' Dr Gottlieb security Well certainly in some of the cases the the field security people had to worry bout the safe house and the attributes of it but I think you are talk- ing about sort of a technical coordination - 1-lr Maxwell A coordination at headquarters Dr Gottlieb I clon't remember that huppcnin9 ' ·Ir Maxwe 11 Did you coordinate them with the eclical staff - level Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 @ l 0 i 0 2 · t I11 Dr Gottlieb Mr Maxwell Perhaps we can move on to the next opera- ji 11 i tio 1 Dr Gottlieb The next one is callc II _ 6 Ii 8 And this one leaves me absolutely mystified as to what it ·was 1 7 no 1 I i rnd whether it came off see my name mentioned here And I a t the ii 1 time And unless you have something else here that might help 'i - 9 i rr e - - you were going to ask me the same thing ij 10 1 1 J1 I 11 The n a m e a n s nothing to me I am trying to I I' J j Lt · e C locutc it in time and trying to remember where I was in - - a n d whether somehow I had been called away from L' to consult on a case like this Just docsn' t ring a bell I Mr 1-i°axwe 11 •· '-· _ --· r·• l • J ' 0 0 0 J • ' _ ·' - - • Dr Gottlieb _ -Ir ·loxwcll ·- r • I really don't Do you -ecall any P-1 interrogation that you C Oi'JOS' t at a round t 1c1 t ti ie Dr Gottlieb Not to_ ny reme 1brancc '·' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 51 ' e l 0 ' 2 C 0 j Mr Max •e 11 to the QKIIILLTOP Do you recall any discussions subsequent meeting at headquarters as to the proper procedure for the authorization or instigation of a P-1 inter- II• 5 6 II rogation in line with questions aise l by the Office of S curit Dr Gottlieb I I' Is this in relation t Because that is what I have got rny mind on now 7 Mr Maxwell t t Security and again evidences their concern - terrogations being performed outside of the Office of Security Dr J l - • Gottlieb about P-1 in- This is a security JCnc rc1 ting memorandum I don't remember that C C· 1- - 1 3 a 4 C Ir Ma - well In response to and i-- - concern ' I L you don't recall any discuss ions at hec' ld- 1 C'JU ' lrters about who would be involved in initiating clearing 1 · c1pproving or controlling interrogations using psychochemicals · i l · 1 - il -- Dr Go t tl i c b Aside from what I remember of the system where the approval chain went up through the DDP as far as t 1t M 0 0 C component was concerned what he did from his level I don't u C c' know 0 c C '· was Gut that is my recollection of what the approval rncchc1n It didn't involve the medical staff an l it didn't involve the Office of Security ✓- ir l- i wcll Do you -ec lll -i iy exchantJe -- Dr Gottlieb C _ Off the record Discussion Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 52 r 0 ' ' N II 0 N 1 1 2 i - jI •j C _ 0 5 11 Mr Maxwell Dack on the record Do you recall any discussions either when you were in 11111a at approximately this time or thut you later learned abo t that took place at headquarters or any initial changes I 'I bct ccn you and headquarters concerning possible P-1 interrog tions while you were in Dr Gottlieb o I do not -- based on reading the why I didn't know it before I don't know -- that during this J period of t1vo years while I was gone there was quite c1 bit of ctivity on what I would call the jurisdiction il side of J thi 1gs like r-1 8 0 •r-• l there were some kinds of ar1uments and so I J 0 1 ntl rcmcr ih er I was gone then t least a yei r or a year an l 1Jith '-· - ' TSD i i n l when I car ie buck for half I didn't have much to do So that is i period th it is a sort of a sli' ht blank a f ir as I am concerned nd this file fits into that blank as fur as I am co 1cerned 0 0 1- r •la Xh'C 11 I am not sure 'hat thut r 1e 1ns u c Dr Gottlieb can a c - 0 · it clearer What There I ' am tryins to say is -- maybe I was a pc -iot of ti1ue of i t leust • • three yc irs i nd r 1 iybc three and a half that I ht1cl very little ' fi rst-hand to do with ' l'SD and -o psychocncnic 11s und or the security -1 ictlic 11 taf DOI' 1ttet l ' ts to coonli 10 tc und so I 'as just not in touch with them Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 1 • 53 0 0 0 e jl 1 2 I C i 0 May I take my break now I N Mr Maxwell Ye l·· C II g_ Recess '1 r 1lj Mr Lenzner Dack on the record 1 JI _ c I In prior discussions with staff member Michael Madigan i 6 he requested Dr Gottlieb informally relating to allegations i concerning the CI Iloward l unt and the 8 '· l nd I just recently talked to Hike Madigan on the phone 9 I ti I' I I writer Jack Anderson And to provide a record for the Corr -nittee that will record Dr I r·- ii 1 · · '- - I 1' 1 Gottlieb's answers to Mr Madigan informally last week we would like to give Dr Gottlieb an opportunity to state now what J _ ' L 0 C he told 'lr Madigan lc1s t week The specific allegation was rerortcd in the ·1ashinr ton Post that an employee of the 0 Cil hac discussed ·w 1 th llowa r l llun t possible cf for ts to ei thcr disorient· hc1rm or injure Jack l nclerso 1 in some way How Dr Gottlieb can you describe what your c1nswer I was when you responded to Hr l-iadi9c1n's inquiry last week Dr Gottlieb I told Mr l• ad i Jan that I knew nothinr obout that i -icident that in fact I h 1d never met f- r llunt 0 0 0 c u nor ever had a conversc1tion with him about this or any other c i i C matter Mr Lenzner l nd did you also tell him that you did not hear 0f nor had you discussed r r l nderson or I-Ir llunt or this_-gcncr 11 story thilt just rclc1tcd and that was related o · in the · ashins on Post Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 Ii ' e ' N 0 Dr Gottlieb I said I kne absolutely nothing about it II 4 1 Off the record ' ii 0 s '- Discussion off the recorc t- r 1 On the reco rd Specifically Dr Gottlie were you ever asked abo t 5 6 Muxwell ii the possibility of providing a chemical which might be placed ii 1 on the steering wheel of a car which would affect the driver f causing um too-ecome-- ±-sor4ented-Or-hann ng __l1tm in any way Ii 7 -----4--- ------ - S 9 j 1 · ------·-- Dr Gottlieb Mr Maxwell I was never asked that question by any- I ' 1 l - body t°'- Were you ever aware of any discussions wi hin· J C· 9 c th • Cii be a fore propos lls such us this Dr Go t t l i c 1 J • ilo I was not - ere you ever aware of any propos i l C within the CI to aud chemiculs to Jack Anderson's food or drinks which would be used to har him or disorient him ' ' ·- Dr Gottlieb What was your question Do I ever remember hcarin J anything 0 C i ny discussions C Dr Gottlieb o I never remember either being involved in or hearing about any such discussions · _ Discussion off the record ' Mr l 1xwe 11 - - _ -• l • __ 9ack on the record - Dr Gottlieb did you have an opportunity to read the i- 'ashin9ton Post article in which the alle·gations were set for --- ----------- - ---- ---- ---- T fP-- • f · t' t tii ft t it l 1 0ii tt 1tf t i11 % i Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 or Gottlieb Yes 1 did TO the best of your knowledge was there Mr Maxwell in any truth whatsoever in the allegations that were set forth ' e N 0 N i th• Washington Post article about th• purported attempt to i Ii t assassinate or harm Jack Anderson 6 or Gottlieb 1 can onlY say that 1 never heard of it any awareness of it 'I 8 off the record ··· L · - - · •·• • ·• • - Back on the record We have inserted this part of the record in order to • c clarifY to th• best of Dr Gottlieb' s ability the situation in l • • ccgard to tSe allegations raised in the washing ton Post J • Hr l• axwcll lC· t'---- ----------- Discussion off the record 9 c-- 55 ' • 0 f 1 ' I1 article A d·we will now return to the principal subject of the deposition which also ir volves the use of drugs - -fJt a f __ l regard to which ere simply whether you were informed I - I J Perhaps we can just finish off the last questions in J at anY time about the possibility that your actions i • in nece•er of 1957 precipitated any discussions at CIA 0 0 headquarters in regard to the operational control of th• use 0 - - _ u ci · C _ C oE p-1 or Gottlieb Has your question was I aware of whether my resencc - 1 3 af 4 precipitated cse discussions at headquarters lhcthcr your activities i n _ •ir iaxwc 11 L - ·- TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 e l ' N Dr Gottlieb Ii 0 ' I was not aware of that •I n 2 1 Mr Maxwell I would like to call to your attention II C 0 ·1 1 '• 5 I that the memorandum that we have been referring to which is to the Chief of the SRS from - n lists as a subject an Artichoke request and refers to the proposal to use II 6 II I P-L Once again I would like to check your reaction to your I ii ii 8 c lC· -' - - ll particularly as it progressed over time · Dr Gottlieb CuSC 11 I can say is that I can casi ly see a where someone like 1 Hors'e''1 'f1 'en who relatively would like to lwve enlarged the scope of the Artichoke type of coorc Iinutio i J L' 'r ' I • 9 0 Ii 1 understanding of the relationship between Artichoke and P-1 'I 1 - could have been contacted by somebody in the Agency who j Know that TSD handled the P-1 side and under- that circu n stuncc· 1 could write· a memorandum like this didn't 4 j • C That is not inconsistent with an understanding of the I l• - • L• • r- 1 7 t situation us it was at that time that I have I have to remember that we are reading a memorandum written by ot $ '§ 1'1 n to one of his superiors 0 0 0 c 1 · 1r axwell Is this the office of Security case officer rather th in It lists th 0 - c 0 2 - c2 cc2se officer that would be Dr Gottlieb be thil t I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 -- __ __ · -- - - -- _ --·· 0 0 0 0 ' ' 0 c 0 € II 1 And neither refers to a secure office person nor a 2 l' person working overseas 3 I Mr Maxwell 11 I 5 II 6 ii Discussion j cc Dr Gottlieb Oh yes I Let me comment here off the record i Discussion off the record 10 11 L e off the record Mr Maxwell Dack on the record 9 l i • Off the record i L Mr Maxwell Dack on the record l O' 0 Dr Gottlieb l 1 - _ _ · I was going to comm nt that from the remarks ·you have mude just now and from other rem it ks you ' hc1ve mude I think that you hove a notion hat is out of ij ' • · proportion with what I rerr crilicr·thc situation to be at that xtent of kno1-rlcdgeability of P-1 its c dstcncc -1 ' time of the -1 where it belonsed jurisdictionally and ilnything else about ·1 · it And my remembrance of it is that that was a fairly tig held matter at that time · not widely diss minated at all Mr Maxwell ' And the information about it wa Off the record Discussion off the record r Maxwell Dack on the record Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · · · o 'Jjft 1l rt l f ' iin'f ' •· - · 0 0 0 · ' · · --· 1 ' 0 ' 8 2 u C 0 Dr Gottlieb I can comment it may well be that all of that is true that was thinking about a P-1 interrogation and about me 6 i I i' 7 Mr Maxwell 11 I 9 a C 1 1 1 ··· L G 0 ' Dr Gottlieb Uot to my remembrance Mr Maxwell The memorandum indicates that there was a· belief on the part of kirs'c •l -cn of the Office of Security J -- that this should have Leen handled throu Jh the tichol-- c pro- ccclu c This would not however Jc your un JersL inclin 1 of _• ---- II 4 C Were you involved in any P-1 1nterrogat1 9n J L while you served as a case officer i n II Ii'I 10 II that all could be true without my knowing it 8 - - No I have no such recollection although l- _ f _ 1 the authorization of P-1 Dr Gottlieb o Out as I said before I could easily imagine l - f writing such a r 1e -no o his boss - - inferring that this was an Artichoke technitjue Mr Maxwell f i also apparently was concerncd thilt 0 0 0 u ci c this a an Artichor e µroccclurc cc that Artichoke procedure should e followed ' I 0 0 and indicated to the case o Why woulO this have taken place Dr Gottlieb I think I undcrstan your question • r • c · Uut I don't know the answer r Maxwell -- - --- la d there been opp_ sition en the part- o ---------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 · -- e 1 - I think the record shows in the 0 'u QKHILLTOP proceedings that there had been concern on the 2 rJiJ - • u C --- I part of the medical staff that medical officers should be 3 C 1 I IIi 5 i 11 I present or take part Dr Gottlieb That could have been his reason You are asking me to clarify the reasons that or· Gu nn 1 3 a 4 6 · raised this point about Artichoke · · · case and I I - - - - - - s tfi--- ---- d _ 0-n---'--t-------k--now-t--h-e--xe-a-son-c----------- --- ----------- 9 ' 10 1 reported in the QKIIILLTOP meetings can you remember Dr I Gunn expressing his concerns at any other time to you about the Mr Maxwell Other than the comment which was i cc l I I l 11 n a 1 3 a 4 ii i 'I i I C ·· 1 ' I 0 0 Dr Gottlich Mr M 1x1- ·e 11 N0 I don' t Perhaps we c in JO on Lo the next one j C proper procedures to be followed in A-2 or P-1 interrogations i Dr Gottlieb The next one is somethinCJ ca 1 lecl Let me read it over a little more _This memo brings no rec llection of was either involved in myself or was aware of lh«t is the specific date of - the ·m·cmo - I ·1 t t ·· ' _ '·_ · · - · - 1 60 g ' @ Dr Gottlieb Where is that in the memo 1 ' N 0 C Mr Haxwel 1 0 __ H C I see • Dr Gottlieb I was i n - And that i s - It is highly improbable 't i There is no evidence whatsoever that you Mr Maxwell participated in this I - - - - - · · •• - -1 3H _ that you might have about P-1 interrogations And the question 10 I is relatively simple l j I - lone ug'ainsf 'd'c'fcctors· within the ti-- 's- -- 11 ii l ' Ii 1 0 · C ·-· 1 •i •I Mr l '· any ·' • · 1 3 a 41- ·0 0 C' r j ci c _o C c _i 2 To the best of my nowledge there were none Mr Maxwell i To the best of your knowledge 'i Dr Gottlieb Let me comment on·the record plucc while I could never have heard about · ·it __·· 1 Mr Maxwell Hhatwould the term _ s pecial · · It is quite possible that a P-1 interrogation of this kind took _ ·· 0- 5 To the oest of your J-- nowled Je • ere there Dr Gottlieb j lr 11 Maxwell i • ·1 L 1 I do not I have no recollection Dr Gottlieb '1 C L 11 co c ---· incident to your general procedures or other recollections I What the question refers to is tccttniquc r fcr to Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 61 0 0 0 e The memorandu is prcpa ed ith an appro- 1 I ' 0 2 val typed in and the initials of GW attached 'I Who would that indicate approved the memorandum C 0 •' 11 1 j The name Frank Wisner comes up Dr Gottlieb is the only na c I can associate I Out that lie was DDP at the time 'I ii I II 6 1 think I want to say that I don't know that for sure Uut yo 1 •' asked me what it might indicate I q Mr Max ·e 11 • 8 j• I 9 _ 10 It indicates the approval was made subject i to he understanding an l proviso that the actual employment i utilization of this technique will not be undertaken without Ii the specific prior approval of the Chief Counter Intelligence - l Ii 0 i J 0 'J stuff Director of Security and l gency medical officer 1 '· who will consider a l '· • 1 iI l' I 1 better· and more desirable than som_ · other· tcchniq'ue - i1 • - the question thilt this technique is 'substance' a sanitization by the Agency and b a weighing 11 l t ·• of the conse 1ucnccs and repercussions in the event of a' violei it I 1 · I· r- l ' Would that to the best of your knowledge characterize •I · u 0 j I the upprov 11 r echanisr i for Artichoke techniques or would it 0 0 0 iuverse re 1ction on the part of t e subject • - r cha rac te r i ze t he approvul mechonism for P-1 tcch iiques Dr Cottlicb There arc several comment based on what Ii 0 you just read me i · Nurnheror c substituting the worJ P-1 for •substance which seems logic l it would seem that they were talking about u narcohypnosis sort of thing ___ _ _ __ - · - - - - - - - - - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 rr- _ I 62 8 0 e 1 ' 2 i N ' C i 0 t i r 1 5 Nur ilier two that mechanism is more charccteris ic of what I now have read based on what you have showed e and other things of the approval mechanism that was being levelope l i '# at that time through the ''Deputy Chief of the Counter In tell • I 1- ·t I I I ' i · gence staff 'i G 1 'I ' So I am trying to say it had to do with a new mechanism 7 iII ii I that had been set up Decause you remember previo sly - - - ------ ---- ---- the ----· CI staff had simply not been involved in these approvals Ii li g _ J 'I Q 10 I i •I --- ll 11 Mr Maxwell In the determination by TSS would the same set of criteri 1 essentially whether this technique was better an l more desirable than the alternatives and the J c- C· l ' wighting of the conseciuencc ' ' and rcpcrcustions in the event of 4 C a violc 1t idvcrse re 1ction be weighed i - l Dr Gottlieb I --· am having to be very speculative We L· i are talking about a period when I wasn't there and had nothincJ ' C 1r i L' to do 1n this area J r 1-laxwell l • t · l 0 0 ' I am only asking about whether the same set of criteria r tight well be opplied in P-1 interrogations as might be applied in Attichoke interrogations 'J Dr Gottlieb 0 You mean about the possibility of a violent C 0 '· ' reaction and the possibility of whether it is better than the other _ e Yes I Mr think so Maxwell 1' nd what sort of information about medical l1istor would be desired on the part of TSS for decisions as to the p ssibility of a violent adverse reaction r -- ---------------- - - - - - - - TOP RET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 63 e Dr Gottlieb ' I really don't remember wha' procedure N 0 N or doctrine in that area we were following during that period c 0 Mr Maxwell So you don't recall what kind of inform ition 1 i 5 I you would want to have before you made a determination Dr Gottlieb Well I am trying to be precise about that I' 6 I r period 7 And my answer is I don't remember Mr Maxwell And in previous period l or later periods do if ------ ' 8 9 i ii you have any recollection Dr Gottlieb I 10 i 1 Other than the general recollection that we would want to have as much medical history on a person as 1 1 n p L JC could get hold of i J ·' Mr Maxwell Were there any questions in particul ir l d C that 'ould be helpful for you in m i ing ·a determination as 1 • to 1 he ther ·a· P-1 in te rroga t io woultl be aµ nopr ia te or des i ra ule ' Dr J i j C · •· Gottlieb I thin any history of mental iilness ould h i ve bothered us any history of serious heurt diseusc · would have bothered us And I think any indication of a -· serious diseilse be it mental or physical would have slowed _ 0 0 0 us up · Mr l-lilX e 11 c The record should indi i tc that -Ir Frcdcrid 3aron of the Seniltc Select Conmittec Staff · has joined the deposition And it should be m i de clear that the same stirulations that have been operatinc in rc Jurd to - Dr _agree ble to counsel through that section of the deposition G0ttlicb's testimony up to now will continue if it is Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 lf il 7 i ii' 2 J ' ' r t f z f t ' 7 - t ·· - ·· · · · - -•· J 64 -- _·· _ - 0 0 0 0 Mr naro 1 1 - Dr Gottlieb before we begin my questioning on the subject of Executive Action I would like to give you 2 i a chance to look over a set u C 1 S a 0 c on a conversation that he says he had with you concerning i t il s of notes t h a t took the subject of Executive Action 11 I n l we will introduce these notes as Exhibit 1 for 6 •1 day's session The document referred to was 8 marked Gottlieb Exhibit No 1 9 '- - for identification 10 C ii u 1 II • · J Lt · C 1 C 1'1 • II - I 'i --• 1 1 1jl l lli - l II ·I i 0 C t • e - - I I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C 0095089 · · ' _ ' ··· • • • a • '•·' · ' 65 0 0 0 ' e 1 r 0 g '- · l Baron Off the record i r C ·- 0 t i 1 Hr Daron Dack on the record ' i JI 1 · 5 Discussion off the record Ii 'I I Dr Gottlieb so that I can be fair to the Minority Counsel who is not present for this examination I would like 11 to ask you to confirm for the recor l the fact that we have not -----0 i c ussed up until this point the question of the date of the 6 j 3 a 4 1 I ' 1 8 9 - conversation referred to in these notes by Dr I co • - L e ' I confirm that Now Hr Daron 1 1 ii11 Gottlieb let me represent to you that the notes that you have in front of you have b en cxi minetl by 1 3 1 1f J and he has testified tha hr took these notes 0 a cl luring or as a result of a conversc1tion th 1t he helcJ with you l 1 - • l • • C · L-' i-·- on the general subject of Executive Action said that Sid c up in the left-hand cor 1er of these notes referred to yourself Do you have i ny independent recollection of the date or the substance of this conversation that the notes refer to 0 Dr Gottlieb My independent recollect ion you mean if 0 0 c u c I never saw these notes would you rccoll ct ci thcr the C substance or the date of that convcrsatio i - --------·L ta gt _ Mr Baron night Dr Gottlieb Hr Oaron 1-ly answer is no l would not llavin9 seen these notes what is your rccol- lcction as to the date of your co v rsations with ------- --- ECRET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 - - on Executive Action ' 0 0 11 fied before the Senate Committee last T-hursduy I'· executive Action is a very confusing one to me I ' I became aware of it almost the first duy thilt I entered the I Agency in the middle of 19Sl I t 5 I I i 6 it was a word that connoted what is now being referred to as • ' l • covert action in general but to include quite a wide spectrum of non-direct collection of intelligence related activities i On the basis of discussions about this we have had i ' I before I rcali2e that this connotation is in connection with assassination rccoll ction of a date here J -- 1 1 c · I In the first place 0 I J L i I l ' And as I remember it it was n il Dccausc a word that was used in several senses 9 the word 7_ 0 l - Dr Gottlieb Let me start out by saying that as I testi- I t ' l ' i ·· So that when you soy what is my best the factor I just mentioned con fuses it very much 1 I lt r- 1' J C 0 1 3 a t4 V c c nd further I briefed in this ge icr l irea scver il sc ni _r officials over a period of years l nd it is very hard for - r to place the specific d itc of any of those really and specifically this one with Mr Daron neforc we examine these notes in detail let's turn to the general stream of conversations that you ' ' - hacl with senior officials of the Agency about Executive ction You mentioned on more han one occasion in your rrrcvious tcsti 1on r· that you had a general co versation witi Richard Bissell with assassination capabilities Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 - e ir - f rtt 1f --- - · trt - - 0 0 0 ' 67 And you placed that conversation in the spring or early 1 r 0 summer of 1960 is that right 2 C Dr Gottlieb 0 t That is right i nut I want to remind youi I i that that was on che basis of ge ting some help from the cables t I and so on that you were sho ing me at the time j Hr Lcnzner 6 1 3 a 4 And the record should indicate that I think that process was -- that Dr Gottlieb had the cables and I eb into the I think that is a fair statement isn't meeting with nussell 9 0- it Dr Gottlieb - Dr Gottlieb Yes C - L C • J r naron In other words you looked at the cable traffic 0 0 - ind saw that you hod gone to - 1 3 8 4 S c 1 J '• 1 i in September of and reulized that your conversation with nissell h i cl ta cn place a number of months before you went t o - • your '· general conversation with Dissell on capabilities _ · 1 Dr Gottlieb That is correct I Nr Daron And that is how you placed that first - C 0 0 ' J conversation with Bissell in the spring or early summer of • 1960 Dr Gottlieb Yes ' Hr Uaron Did you h i ve any other conversations with - _ Uisscll about assassination capabilities other than the ' ·1 S a co 'ersat i 0n - r atcri-a ls tr at we discussed concerning preraring lethal for use 4 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 0 0 0 ' - 68 1 Mr Lenzner 0 I 4 0 2 C 0 j € One my recollection of Dr Gott ieb's testimony prior to this is that he discussed with Hr Eissell generally the I II i ii Let me make w cc rections for the record ca abilities for elimination or i capacitation generally 'I I' I And then I ehink you just used the word lethal materials 5 I' II G I' 7 -I e And I think that is a little bit of an abbreviation of the more accurate more complete testir ony quibble about that li' Dr Gottlieb ii ' II 10 0- Dut we wouldn't Now your question was aside from that conversation did I -- 1 r-• 1 C • e C i wit Dissell about readying materials for use against an 1 ' fr ccJn lecJdcr did you have -- wh2 corwersations did you h ve -· l - Mr Daron Aside from your fa rly specifid· conversation I 12 0 ii ii with nisse l l concerning general assassination capabilities or '• C the subject of Executive Action Dr Gottlieb I don't have a clear recollection of speci- 1 3 a L· 1 •·· · ··- · ·r · fic talked about in connection with t h c - - i n c i d e n t conversations like that aside from the ones that we 0 0 0 u ci I• Mr Daron Do you think that you had any conversation with any Agency official before your conversation with C Uisself about general ca abilitics that you have llaced in the C 3 - '· spring or ecJ rly summer of 1960 where the subject o xccutivc ction capabilities came up in the sense of cap3bilities for an assassination mission •· Or Gottlieb I don't hcJ vc a reme brance of that Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 l - i -- _- _ · --- -1 · 80 69 l ' 8 Mr Daron So far as you can recall the subject of 0 ' I Executive Action in the sense of assassination capabilities I C 0 or assassination missions did not arise until your conversation r 11 with Bissell 5 11 II Dr Gottlieq It I 6 11 I think I testified before that there was a series of briefings of senior officials in an episodic ii i sense Dut I can't hang dates or people on this subject - - - r- ________ ______ _____ _____ --'--'--------8 I which was included in a conversation about the TSO cnpabilities 9 ii or TSO research program j · lG i CJ' r · i J I don't remember Dissell using that term Executive Action in his conversation with him ·I s stancc of what I talked to him abou So my answer to your We were discussing the C l e 4 0 C estion is that I can't hang a date briefings that discuss an executive action capability or group 1 C o 1 · · 0 a name on specific prior to my discussion with Dissell if you will accept the r·• '-· comment since the inference is that that term was used and L ' l r-- ·• I can't remember that that term was used Hr Baron Aside from the use of the term did you 0 0 ' I ever discuss assassination carabilities with anyone at the 0 ci ' gcncy before this conversation with nisscll that you have c· c '· r• already testified about c Dr Gottlieb I would have to say that I did Dut I ' 0 - I 0 '- · 2 can't hang as I say a date or a name because I briefed scver i l senior Agency officials in that general area Mr Uaron Would that have included the DCI · i 0 0 0 70 l ' 0 Dr Gottlieb I don't re ember briefing the DCI 0 ' 2 i1 ii i C 0 iiI' t 61'' I 13 on this subject just said I can't hang a specific name or date 7 Do you remembe briefing any specific person Dr Gottlieb That is what I ii 5 Hr Daron Mr Baron So you are certain that you did brief several senior a_gc cy -of ci al s on ass as sin a tion cap a bi 1i ties with in -crA lal iora ton es 1 11 I 9 l 10 u i 1• J 1 ' - J 0 J · bilitie in connection with a briefing on TSD or a briefing on covert action capabilities Mr LC nzncr They wercn' t all within the CI L1bora to -ics lie testified with regard to J_ I stuff that that was material - - I C • 1 ' l Mr Duron l ' Mr Lanzner Yes l c l Not solely on assassination c Jpa- 11 1 • L Dr Gottlieb · - ' Mr Daron You don't Qean the CI laboratories Did you ever discuss prior to your conver- ' sation with Richard Dissell the subject of a project designec C 0 0 to develop the capability to carry out assassinations if u ci required wLth any scnio agency officials Dr Gottlieb You arc tying that down to a period before - I talked to Dissell the one we talked about nd the answer is not to my recollection e C · · Mr Daron Hhen you had your general discussion of assassination and incapacitation capabilities with nisscll in Appr ed for Release 2022 02 01 0 0 0 - 71 - - -· the spring or early summer of 1960 did you discuss with Dissell 0 N the plan for a project at the CIA that would be specifically de- V -i V C signed to develop assassination capabilities 0 Dr Gottlieb Mr Daron Not to my rememberance Did Dissell give you any hint that he was co - templating assigning an officer in the CIA to set up a project to develop the capability to carry out assassinations if necessary or to spot assets who might be used in assassination attempts Ll Dr Gottlieb You are tying C 9 7 C· 0 Mr Daron that into a tirr e period now · In this first conversation with Disscll J Dr Gottlieb 0 Mr Daron r 3 - 1 '· i _ No not to my recollection Now did nissell make you ware of his intention ·to assign the development of an a sassination capability project to a CIA officer at some subsequent point to r - • w• i · ' l0 1 17 i that initial conversation with him Dr Gottlieb i I really have only a hazy recollection of that I just don't have a clear recollection I have a re- u collection that that might h ive happened But it is just not a c· --4-- clear one I c in' t say yes I remcr ilier his doing it 0 0 0 c C ' C 1 af '''' Mr 13aron Do you h i ve any recollection of llichard Dissel l making you aware that ' ' had been asked to set up V - - - 0 • - · an Executive Action project for the purpose of developing the a2ability to c irry out assassinations · Dr Gottlieb • Could you ask that again please _t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 You ·- · - ·- •· - l • fftJ·-r ' _ · z 0 0 0 asked me whether Dissell made me aware e that he had a s k e d to develop such a capability I I Mr Daron Yes I Dr Gottlieb My answer to that is no ••• recollection thata In fact my first I was involved in anything like this thatI I was that I had a clear recollection came after I read these I notes or after you told me about them -- you meaning after my I I __ I_ I I counsel told me about it Mr Daron Do you have any independent recollection of any conversation with anyone other than Dissell of the CI about developing assassination capabilities after your first _ i 3 a 4'' a 1 _ c_ -- C l • -' •I conversation with Bissell on this subject Dr Gottlieh side from this conver ition w i t h 1 Mr 13a ran Yes ' C· Dr Ciottlieb The answer is no I clo not C Mr Daron 'WI I•· --· · So as far ris you can remember now the only two people that you discussed the subject of assassination capabilities with in the abstract as opposed to in the 0 0 0 l 'I u qcneral context of TSD's full range of capabilities were Richard Dissell an l William Harvey ci Mr Lcnzne r I assume you are talking about in this general period I - _ Mr Lenzner I a 1 confused by that question l d I am not s re the witness can answer that fairly Could ou re hrasc that It seems Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 to me you arc kin I- g 0 ' l ' N 0 N l · ve -sus 2 his recollection on this question on an abstract basis a general basis V C 0 Dr Gottlieb ii ' i Abstract was also a bit confused The 1 I other was more abs tract Can I just confer with him for a second Mr Lenzner Confers with the witness Would you try and rephrase that 10 11 J Mr Daron I think I may have misspoken Mr Lenzner Why don't you rephrase it Mr Dc1ron Did you discuss the subject of the capabilit- 11 ' Jl ii 'i ics of the CIA to c«rry out assassinati 1 s with c1nyone other th tn and nich ird Dis3ell subsequent to your initial conversation wit Richc1rd Uissell on the subject - i' f Dr Gottlieb ' _ 1-lr Baron _ Between then and now you mec1n · Dr Gottlieb i question Yes I would h ive to answer yes to that Fi you arc putting it that generally and I say C 0 0 that because in many briefings or several briefings of senior ·J of icials that _car ie after that that IOuld have to have been talked about Wear t ilking about a long period of time Mr Uaron Do you have a specific recollection as to • particular individuals that you briefed on that subject Dr G_ottlieb Can r ask you a question whether you - ire now making it the general Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 a briefin J in - 1 ·· f f r ' f i- - '- ' _ - - _ - - _ _ - 0 0 0 74 - l 0 assassinations were mentioned or whether as you 2 seem to be asking me whether it was on the subject of an V C assassination group I 11 Mr Daron I want the answers to both questions 1 5 6 I 7 8 •• And I think my answer I to both questions would have to be no if you are asking me to I ha ng them on a d i te and a person specific people with whom you have discussed assassination capa 0 10 bilitics in the context of any briefing 11 • About the only ones that I have a specific Dr Gottlieb I 4 1 - '1 - I 1 • J like ritzGerald and like Kara lCssines and before him llelms '- L remembrance of -- for in tance when people would becomd DDP II C I 'I I·1 L 1 1 I have a recollection of talking with them at the time that it became ny turn to brief them on TSD 1 r- I I Ii Mr Daron Here there any other people at the Agency with whom you discussed assassination capabilities i 1 II 0 Aside from the ones I have testified Dr Gottlieb 0 0 u c ' H 2· • 2 • ll q· even those briefings I mentioned with the DDP arc only the kind of recollection of y briefing of my general capabilities Ur Gottlieb I can't relilcrnbcr specific individuals i nd ·I - to so fur -Ir Daron Yes 2 e I Mr Daron Forgetting a date for the oment arc there 9 C - Dr Gottlieb To both questions -·· and that had to be one of them I • I Mr Dar r1 1 hen_you bri fcd Karamess ines lie lms or j 1 1 TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 I 0 0 0 - ' ' Ii 1 0 2 4 V C f FitzGerald or any other DDP on general TSD capabilities ineluding assassination capabilities did the subject of a 0 75 I Ii the capability to carry particular project designed to develop j out assassinations ever arise 'I 5 ii 1 8 a 4 i Dr Gottlieb Not to y recollection activities in this field Mr Baron Did t --fr ev_cr_ i arise in the course of your dj _scus_sions with Helms 8 11 9 I 1 'I c - l - e ' J J L 0 C J Karamessines or FitzGerald Dr Gottlieb Not to y recollection Mr Uaron Did the phrase Executive Action come into use I ' 14 in your discussions with Karamessines llelms FitzGerald or j 12 anyone else other than Bissell and Harvey 1 -- Dr Gottlieb As I say I am confused about that because 1 in my own mind as I say Executive Action and the general - range of covert action support capabilities that CSD had are L• intermixed and so I can't honestly say whether we talked about l covert action or executive action I have no remembrance of talking about executive action in the narrow sense that you C 0 0 refer to as an assassin tion capability v ci § e' C s 4 Do you h3 ve any independent recollection o Mr Uaron - r • discussing the subject of assassination capabilities with i- - Hi l liam larvey - Indcpen ent of these Or Gottlieb · Mr naron Yes or Gottlieb No I do not Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 notes • ··· 76 e 1 0 Mr Daron Having seen these note do you now have a refreshed recollection of the fact that you did have such a discussion with 1 1111 1116 Yes I do Dr Gottlieb 5 Mr Daron And what can you recall now about the sub- A stance of that discussion w i t h Dr Gottlieb What I recall now and especially stimulated by some of these words like phonemes was that apparently 8 1 3 a 4 4111119 must Q 9 0 have been trying in some way to diffuse his specific 10 1 interest in a lot of other things because I obviously briefed C 11 L _ r- him on a lot of things I was doing in conn ction with ray job as uissell's scientific advisor which are alluded to in 11 L these notes such as ELHlT R D such as phoneme such as 0 j_ automatic truns·lation machines ' l ' And he clearly asked me what arc activit5 es in other areas I here I see the narcotic bureac l •' ' 1 · I' ' i 1-- Mr Daron What would that have signified I ·- Dr Gottlieb I probably talked to him or he asked me about and I talY ed to him a out what our arrangements ith 0 0 0 C the Narcotix aureuu were Is it my understanding that the arrange- - - - f -· · ments were those that you described in your opening statement or the statement that was shown to me Dr - Gottlieb r Yes in a general sense from 9ou that he talked to DC If I am hear in _ about other things than that ·· • •• 0 0 0 77 - I l ll 2 answer i no or conversely yes that is th kind of arrange- Iiii ment I was briefing him on ' 0 i 0 f general area of cooperation with the Narcotics Bureau my 11 'I t 5 j Ii Ii ill1 ' Docs that confuse things I thought you were asking me did we talk to him -- did we talk about the Narcotic Dureau in 6 'I any other context than I wxote in my prepared statement • I 1 ---11--- - --ll_r_ ax_ £ ----- And y are saying yo __di r iot ______ i' a Ii Dr Gottlieb ----r- I did not to rny remembrance ·g C ' - lO j' ' J • Mr Daron Defore we go through he notes line by line L •• l-· I 1 3 8 4 J let me ask you if you recall any more about the general substance or the point of your conversation with Dr Gottlieb ·lel l my own rer iembrancc is that he told C C me that Bissell had asked him to look into some matters i - • nd I am sure he mentioned assassination And he then ·· asked me to tell hir i what l was doing 1 3 a t·• 11 I Mr Daron And what did tlllllt say he had been asked to l • do in rel tion to assassination or assassination capabilities by nisscll 0 Dr Gottlieb Mr n iron Do you have uny recollection at all Dr Gottlieb - I don't have a speci ic r collection of ch Yes I have a general recollection th l he had been nskcd to look into the possibility of an assassin tio c ipubility e • •r 1•lr D i ro 1 nu W ls he any more specific than that io' l - i i-' j l_d_ of_ cc1pc1bi_l_i _y - -- '_us looking into P'I ' %f 0'' ' 0 0 0 e I want to renind you that we are talking about 15 years 0 ' 2 u I 1 4j c5 u C 0 remember Dr • 1 ago 1 Mr Daro Did - indicate how far he was prepared to go or had been assigned to go in the development of an I assassination capability and the selection of particular tar- I 9ets 6 I 7 against whom to use that capability No Dr Gottlieb he did not -- I mean I have - - no rememberancc of him saying that 11 t r Daron 101 G ll J i_ - • been selected for use of assassination capabilities that were II to be developed 12 1 0 l - I 1-· 1 L i From my conversation with him Dr Gottlieb l Mr 13aron c- Were you aware that particular targets had Yes Dr - Gottlieb - Hot to my remembrance Mr Daron And were you aware from any other source aside r from your testimony about t h e - matter were you aware t of the election of any other targets t h a n l '· Dr Gottlieb 0 0 0 had some general awareness u c c t 'la - I testified in the Castro thing that I 1 • of Castro being discussed in those terms but not from this conversation Mr Uaron l nd any other targets than Castro anc 1 - 1 9 that you were aware of •· _ _ __ - •• Dr Gottlieb Go 1• I 2 - i 11 Mr Uaron tJow these notes refer to El Dencfactor I 11 11 11 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 ti y1 · · '• · - 79 0 0 0 e i 9 C2 N 0 N tesified was shorthand for which _ l nd Harvey further said that the note that says examples I of three wrong was probably a cryptic reference to the fact that there were three prime candidates or logical candidates against whom an assassination capability might be used if it wer e developed l nd those would b e _ Castro and - -Do yoff· remember any discussion of developing capabilities for use against - I Dr Gottlieb I do not C - And I have testified as to what I know about the other two Mr Daron • during What did you say to t ·-· this conversation about the assassination capabilities within your knowlc e at the CIA Dr Gottlieb I don't specifically remember that nut C I must have briefed him on the existence of this -· Camp Detrick t t stockpile And I must have also -- well that is about all nut thut i not a specific recollection ' I would huve tolked to him about Mr Oaron reading - I don't know what else Defore we proceed with any more line by line let's try to pin down the matter of the date of this Ii 2 conversation as best we can because we may have to end H 1 soon here today ·- 11 iving your recollection refreshed by these notes do you 25 I have any idea as to the date of this conversation j Ii1 TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 f I tt tt ·• - 80 1 Dr Gottlieb N 2 4 i C 0 I of that · I to 196 3 11 Dut that is a range and pleasrunderstand that I am really suying I· can't remember a date Mr Daron So your recollection is not even firm enough to be able to say that this conversation took place 8 i hin_ a_ mat ter__ of months not to exceed a year after your ini- 9 tial conversation with Dissell about assassination capabili- ties C 11 C· If somebocy pushed me to the wall and asked me that well make·a beginni g and an ending date I would say 1960 6 - really am very vague in my recollection N 5 - I 0 11 i_- - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 12 L Lenzner That assumes that it took place after his meeting with Dissell which he hasn't testified to lj ii C l- r II J · ' Mr naron 1 j C in you -- Let's backtrack to that question then l ·•' _ Mr Lanzner I don't ncan to quibble I 1 ll _ Can you place this conversation with 1 Mr l laron ii 11 after your initial conversation with Bissell g 0 · Dr Gottlieb No I cannot l- r Daron Can you place this convers i tion with c1ny greater specificity than you have already done 2 In other words you have said it f ills somewhere between C ••• I •• 1 1960 and 1963 ·--' I-Ir Lenzncr e e '- If I can interject the witness testified before ·that had you not shown him these notes he wouldn't have 2 - remembered having the conversation at all •' I· I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 - ·• - J '4£ r c O ·• r - _ pproved for Release 2022 02 01 it r0 t 12 i·-- ·· · · 81 0 0 0 1 Now I 0 Ii take i t you arc asking me once he has looked at these notes is his me ory refreshed to the point where not 2 t i 11 only does he remember the conversation but he also remembers 1 H the specific year or month that it took place even though ij 5 1 J before he said that he didn't remember having a conversation il 6 jl 7 I and wouldn't have if you hadn't shown him these notes So with that preface go ahead and answer it say before I read this and before we had conversations about Dissell and 9lllrand 10 Castro and so on had you asked me that qu·cstion I would have 11 said it could have been in a ten-year period from 1955 to 19GS 'I 1 i1 The reason I narrow it from 1960 to 1963 is as a result of be- L ti C C 1 iII ing involved in these things and to the extent that I H but to narrow it down further than that and say I am not I urc it took place before the conversation with Bissell or i __ was going to t J I Dr Gottlieb 1 3 i1 testified I i • I J 1 I• have I don't have a recollection of that 1 · Mr Daron Let me draw your attention to the numbers -I - C 0 1 3 4f n the first line of these notes that sc 1 y 5 1 1· - recor ' -ncn l to you that - u 0 c · ·' nd I will has sc1id that that indi- catcs to him thc 1 t he took these notes on January 25 ltOW' 0 - C in his ini tiul loo at these notes - C was not ubsolutely l nd before I go certuin as to what year that took place on to represent to y o u ultinate testinony about what year it took place I ould like to ask you whether the fact · - •1 that the conversation late in the month of Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095089 e - •· 1 January at all refreshes your recollection as to what year 2 it might have occurred in 0 C 0 3 Dr Gottlieb 4 Whereupon at 5 15 p m the interview was adjourned to 5 It doesn't 10 00 a m Saturday October 18 1975 6 8 0- 9 C 10 l ·· - 1 e r° ' l J • l 0 1 ·· II i 1 I •j·I _ 14 I C 1 1 Ii 1 lG r- 11 I j l ' i C 0 0 J C l 2· · •' - - 2 - - • r ' _ i n ' II j1 I TOP S rl E r c Ac-lions G - 2511 The l 1 gir n llon -- HIS 7 0l co ·cr •· for - I iving c ii1tinn - 111 _r11plcy -- r o t 1r eyes -Ji1n A _nl a TS 1r _ i lc1n Cc•11tr kstincl fro1n U-2 _____ _ - 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