Disclcsure Subject to Criminal Sanctions Report of Procccdinge Hearing held lx forc - - ----- --- ------ 0 ------- - --·- - - ------- -··--·- - ---------------- ---- Senate Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities 0 C -C Saturday October 18 1975 W'-Shin wn D C S utype Tnpe and aste turr ed over • ho Cor r-i tee for destruction - -_ i t r --- -· - - VARD PAUL -HO FJJ '-T STJ EET s - lll GTO I C 2000 1 _ f fi -i i - - · y ·-- ' 1 ' f - - - - - - - - - - - · - ------------------- - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ·nash A 0 I 0 -· 0 1 '1 CONTE i_ _ 1 ' TEST I -10NY 0 i I' 'I Sidney Gottlieb --accomponied by-Terry F Lcnzncr Counsel 1 I I ' l I ·I 'I 0 1 r' f' -· J ' e 1 0 I l l cL''• '· 0 C r 2 ' shelburne nash 0 0 0 l ST ' F INTERVIEH 0 Saturday October 18 1975 United States Senate i' Ii i Select Cor lI littee to Study Governmental ' Operations with Respect to 1i 'I j· -- - -- - -------- -------------- -- ---------- In td ligencc -1 ct Tv1 f1cs· H 'i '·' The Staff Det pursuant to notice at 10 2P a F '-_ e in Roor i GOS Ca i ol ill llotcl J 'L • ' Washington D C ii J 'I C J l'rc cnt I- lli ot 1-lax cll ind Frederic Daron i'rofession il 0 1 ' _____ C 0 C 0 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 Iii 0 0 2 11'I 0 1 TE S' 'I ' mlY OF SIDNEY GOTT LI ED ACCO I ED 0 J TE Y C 0 D2r on f F LEt Z E R COU ·lSEL -- resc - cd On the record Dr Gottlieb we are resuming now a scssio that we left I ji C 6 ' 1 Ii off in the iddlc yesterday concerning executive action l nd before e pick up with the substance of this session I would lil c to go through the sar 1c formalities with you -- ·o cou - se ·o- '1 _- 1· i Dr Gottlieb Yes 1 0 l r-- '1 r Le 1 z n er Yesterday we stipulated to each and every i right ad· ice of counsel warning and alert regarding Senators being prcsc t that we have had on the record the last five times we have been here - · ·le stipulate ind agree to the s irnc dirccc ions and advice thilt I we have received on each occasion Mr Daro -i r _ And it seems ade uate for Elliot Then you arc satisfied that you have re- ceivcd a satisfactory advisory as to rights and you arc willing to testify ithout a Senator present Mr Lcnzner Yes Hr Uaron To pick up 1 3 8 4 C then where we left off yesterd y we ere trying to plt1ce a date on your conversation with _ i b u t Executive ction as best we could based on your recollection and any refreshing of your recollection that we can achieve by reviewing these notes and relaying testimony to you We were at the point where I was asking Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I ·er- ' ---·· - -- _ - _ _•- · - l-- ' - ·- · · s_i ' - - ·J - • ·· ' ttt' t t 1 ·•' ' 0 0 0 0 1 3 a f4 _ _ _ -• • -- · · '-pr -7' ' 'f --· - - • 3 you whether the fact t h a h a s testified that the phrase 0 ' 25 1 on his notes indicates to him that this consideration C took place on the 25th of January of a certain year 0 Is that any help to you in placing the conversation in time 5 Dr Gottlieb 6 lot really Assuming that is true and I guess it is it could have been January or any number '7 t_ 9 C '·· t ·-✓ 1 3 a 4 J ' 'I· Mr Daron J nd the final bit of information I wanted subject is the fact that w h e - examined thc c J notes the final time he sai l that he w is •almost cci -tain 0 that the conversation took place on January 25 1961 J Docs that in any way help you place the conversation ir · i' - · -· time Dr Gottlieb Mr Lcnzncr No Did he express any factors that helprid - · - · · ½ - • him decide th i t it was that year rather than a prior or'- - - -- t C subsequent year that might help Sid C C' 1 3 a q ·1 Hr Daron - r - e to give you to see if we could refresh your recollection on this - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171- - ' · 0 0 0 4 ·' ' f9 slater established under the cryptonum ZRRIFLE l 0 1 t a 4 0 t C • ½QQ said that i t was most li ely bused on his -ecol lection of his activities on Staff D and hi shift over to th Cuba task force that the conversation woulu have taken place 5 j in early 1961 11 G ii Dr Gottlieb I just thought of one other thing The i i s mention in these notes of the U-2 It is of little help t Twas trying to rccol lect when Lr 9 II ' D I first became aware of the U-2 project And clearly this •i - -ould have to be after that if he and I tulked about sor lethi r· about the U-2 J '' Dut my goodness that just puts it in any · n ber of years after a date that I can't remember e Mr i Lenzner I suppose one of the problems C ·- is thc1 D - Gottlieb has already testified that he had a conversation 1 '3 a 4f ith Dissell about something close too irectly to this subject if not So it IOuld not have come on it early 19GO it would not be a singular or aberrational conversation for Dr Gottlieb to have had this with 0 at least one if not more Ile obviously had conversations of a similar nature prior to this _c_ and sec if this brings nyt_hing back • · If _I · -· remind_ yc u_' of ·-- 1 - -- _ _ _ - _ _--_ tt - - th fact th t there was ·a·· hanc e of administration'on• jan iary 21 e 19G 1 when John Kcn iedy took o f ice ·_ _ould that · hc P _y_ou rec - - - _ ' -hcther your conversation with Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C000951 71 _took place - bc_forc or · 't t ' 1 ·- ·• -- -• _ - ' '- 5 @c Gottlieb That brings up only one association in my Dr I ' r iind a 1d that has not_hing to do with this snowy night of his inauguration s ladder at all And that was the Dut I can't hang this on that I just don't associate this meeting with that JI G 'ii event Mr Daron j l f 'i 0 ' C 'i 1 3 a 4J fhc ina guiafion Dr Gottlieb ·lr Daron Let's turn to these cryptic phrases on the No notes of and sec if you can f i l J in for the record the mec1ran9 of c1ny of 1 _ · surrounded these notations J these phrases or the rli scussion th it C r -6 So it doesn't help you either way placed on - the tor o f - notes it says Exec ctions l t l Do you h ve a clear recollection of using the phrase 1 3 9 4 'fCxecutivc I L • l ction when you discussed assassination capability t I •' l · ' · Dr Gottlieb lo I do not I-Ir D iron D i d inform you tha he was estab- I 'lishinCJ i project to develop C' Dr Gottlieb I really don't rcmer ibcr that C c ·-·· In those terms I ret ler ilicr the conversation being a sort of a wondcrin J - one e assassination capabilities It as clear to me that he wanted to know what I under- stood the capil ility of thc cl ndestinc sc vicc in this gcner l re 1 to be _ _ _J _ - #•• 'Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 6 0 - I ' I' l ' Dut my recollection is that he wondered all over the lot 11 0 1 I 'I 0 C 0 ii ' asking what I was doing and talking about things having nothing to do with assassination Once more for the record I would like to Mr Daron ask you ·what recollection do you have of anything that you and 1 3 a 4 C 6 said dealing with assassinations or assassination capabilities 7 I don't have any specific recollection Dr Gott li e b I lG C· - 1 J I 1 J really don't C capability we had that was relevant J - So you assume that you would h we explained Mr Daron Z • the n a tu re o f the 1 e th al or po t c n ti a 11 y 1 c th a l or incupac i ta ting ma tcr ials that the CIJ processed or had 1 can only make an assumption that I went over the materials at Camp Detrick because that was the only to · I 1· - - access to C · Dr Gottlieb Out even that is an assumption l Mr Daron - said that although he didn't have a co pletely firm recollection on this point he thought that 0 0 C ' u c J ' this conversation • as held at your request upon your taking a new job And I will read you his tcstinony on this subject 'f ii i_ tJ- 1 -ttf J1 ' ··J to sec if this at all refreshes your recollection as took the in i tiat i te' for · · · · the conversation or when it tt1 iit ·to·who' f t't t 1'-l · · · - · ·· '· 1 _ · page 5 in one of his curly transcripts - recall --- --- - - - - - · · - - - ---- t % t c- nvcrsation this was a - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ·sort __ _ ______ _ · ·- - - - - - - - - -------------- · ifl •s - - --- - - proved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 7 0 0 0 0 e 1 0 i o a exchange of ideas in briefing session probably held at i 'I r ' i V t I t e -equest of Sid Gottlieb in my office shortly after he ·1 ·I either took over a new job in TSD or took over as actual I Chief of TSD which was the 7echnical Services Division of 1 G I' 'I 1 3 a 4 - ·· - - c ' · • that Dr Gottlieb had already been cut in on these L discussions and that he should talk ith Dr Gottlieb about this ' 4 C Mr Daron I think that that is an accurate rendition o L testimony and the report that ' J ' 1 3 a 4 L I - given to the' Inspector General Is office in their preparation ·' _ 1 - of the report in 1967 - - 'l nut d spite that act he maintains that this particul r l 1 must huve I - • • • • I ' J testified at least on one occasion that C C indicate that Fred my notes from my prior briefing I 1 Ii • Mr Lenzner Action capability and that Dissell told i ' _ c-- · ii I ii e ' • he received instructions from Dissell to create an Executive - C · ·- the Clandestine Services j 9 '• · j conversation was held at the initiative of Dr Gottlieb and 0 0 0 as occasioned by a switch of jobs 0 Dr Gottlieb J ll I can say is that you are aware _ _ - - - - 1 i 1I t· 1 · h · b use h 1· 1 ' • f th t f t l l am sure o c ac ua au in 1s nieroory_ Ji e__c fi '•-- become Chief of TSO until at least six ye· rf -t t - '' t -l11ri4 • -' c · Mr Baron • - • C _ t f f c-' i lie simply said 'that you to 1 - ovcr as n c · 1 C 1icf at TSO or actually took over at to T D __ _ _____________ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I I II 0 0 0 @ - i Dr Gottlieb _ ' I ficc _ - I moved back fro TSO from Di sell's I would have said it would have been after this date i 0 i n my me ory i t would have been several months after this ·I cate I would have to check that ' Ii 1 Mr Daron When you say this date -- 'I I 6 1-25-61 is the one that we are hanging Dr Gottlieb '1 ·i 7 11 e 1 'J C J ·· ' I - - ' · J 0 Would you have been taking on any new job C I' I at about this time January 25 19Gl Ii ' l ' · Mr Daron · c-- on Dr Gottlieb The bcst·I can say to that question that iight be helpful if you look at the notes which we haven't one through a good many of them refer to work I was doing the time in my job as scientific advisor to Dissell So I clearly had that job ··-· Decause several of the hin s mentioned here were not TSO projects L• • Mr Dilron r So this review of the notes then docs I • • help you hracket the time frame of this meeting with greater - ' 0 C specificity th n you were able to do yesterday in that you know that this conversation r iust have occurred before you l fL J your rosition as science advisor to Richard Disscll Dr Gottlieb I am just deducing that from _these noL1 -low - · - -· - - --- -· -· -- _ s ·- - -· it is possible you know that we wer'c talking'about - · ' __ --- · _ ' 'I _ - ·-- - 1 ' - t £1 - - t -1 t r - 1 l' '1- ¥'7 » -•- son' ething th ' t hoppencd bcfo'rc Du l think -t hc _·most ' likcly • · ' - thin _J is c h lt I was probobly in that job by these notes as ing me wha·t my job was c - - - - - - -------- -------·-- · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -· ···· • t • ' - _ ·· ·- - Decausc r· ce hi pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 · ·• 0 0 I i G 9 M - Daro 1 Once again during what period of ti c were I 0 you science advisor to Bissell v v - ' l Dr Gottlieb i To the best of my memory I OUld say that would be in the period of late 1959 or early 1960 to about the middle of 1961 ii 1 6 I 7 i Mr Buron So would it be your assumption now that your convcrsiltion with Harvey that is memorialized in these notes I rlod of time I 9 0 ii 1 II Dr Gottlieb That would be an assumption 11 'I l c ' 1 r·•C Returning to the notes then what does the l ' phrc1se magic button• refer to J · ' - Mr Daron Dr I knoH of no project capzibility or Gottlieb 1 · C 1 1 C techniC uc that we referred to by that name And it doesn't mec1n unything to me tlr 0 Jron C L·· 1 I We have discussed the narcotics bureau Do you know what for a living would refer to -- Dr Gottlieb I am sorry 1 3 a 4J g r C _-J i r 1 nd Q ·-· ---· c_ The next note says naron •Rrs 201 cover has testified that that referred to the Russian Intelligence Service - Mr Do you hive any recollection of-a discussion of the - - ·' Russian Intelligence Service in the context of · pl inning r • ' • - -1 - · - _ · • • I - - - · - • Dr Gottlieb No assassination • · · Dut I do •t know whether you have an testimony on the 201 at all But that means to ea 201 fil r •· ' ·• t · ' ·•· - ----- ---- ·------· - - - ·- 80 - ' N 0 N 1 j Ii is the basic biographical file en an individual that is •I associated with the Agency Iq 11 ' 1 3 a 4 ·· • C s 1· 1 i Mr Daron One of the things that - rnentioned in discussing the Russian Intelligence Service is thP possibility that an assassination attempt by the U S Government might 11 i bring retribution from another government and thus might not be a wise tactic I b 1 3 a 4 •I C - _ l lj i• • IJ J c- Do you recall any such conversations Dr Gottlieb Did No have anything to say about the narcotics bureau or the l- agic Dutton might help me r-lr e i i --· I Ii G I' -- Daron That help you I don't believe that he did 4 0 Dr Gottlieb C I would say here he might be talk inrJ c J t3 aJ 4 C t - L obout possible coversations from both of those references Mr Daron uses the word bankruptcy Hhen· in the next line on the notes he has testified he is referring ' I believe to the bankruptcy of operational planning or pursuit that would lend to trying an assassination 0 C l nc1 it in- dicatetl to him that he was not in favor of assassinu ion planning at that point C •· · -- · ' i Do you recall any discussion like o JllfJ b Mr' tt ·na rq'rl r ' No • f lie has characterized you as a general philosophic discussion of assassination - 1 _ And he didn't mc tion the ' fa -· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 coa 095171 - -- pproved for Release 2022 02 0 1COOQ95171 · · 11 e discussion of specific technical devices although he would 1 11 I ' Ii I C 0 t ii 1' allow for that possibility • Do you recall any general philosophic discussion 1J Dr Gottlieb Ii 1 5 6 e 9 l C II 1 But I want to remind you that when you said what did we talk about that related to assassination I said I didn't have any specific knowledge ij I made an assumption that I would talk about the capabilities Ii I i i 'I I want to re-emphasize that I have no specific remeznbranca of talking about assassination capabilities I would only ' i say that reading his notes it certainly was a conversation·th 1 I - C Yes l1 • J • i · 0 was not specific on assassination just by the nature of the notes because there are things in here Lhat clearly go way z _ beyond that J c r c -· 1 · And when you ask me was it a philoso hical conversation • •j '· I would h lve to say that I don't remember that L•• Mr Daron l · - Will you take a look at the drawings on ' · J •• 0 0 0 u 1 · • the notes next to the words narcotics bureau And then· again in the middle of the page there is a doodle or a drawing that is pointing to the word examples of 3 'wror19' - - r - __ -- ci c C i u - • discussing with - - - - --------- ---- ' · 't---- ifaj _ _ - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 c 00095171 0 0 0 8 Dr Gottlieb No When I first saw these they were just N 0 doodles as far as I was concernec and I don't remember any 'i drawings or us looking at sketches or anything like that 0 Mr Daron •i Where the notes say Not a TSO problem i ' i does that bring anything back to you I· I H I l ' i ' i 1 ______ ' · r -- Dr Gottlieb J e - · - 0 1 3 4 J' C L' I would only make the assumption that in that area that if we were talking about assassination he would be saying that this is not TSD's problem in terms of this group thut he is talking about Out that is not based on a spec if i c rcmcmbr a nee ' C No Mr Daron Moving to the phrase apply brakes has indicated that that phrase probably refers to the operationJl requirement th it you be able to stop an assassination opera- 1 c_ j tion at so e point in mid-stream if necessary l Do you recall di cussing that requiremcnt· ·with Dr Gottlieb '' •· • y · - tlo ·1· · -Mr Daron 1 8 4teyond ·The next phrase on the notcs is last resort lc1st resort and a confession of weakness · 0 0 C - has te_stified that that referred to his attitude 0 towar l ussassination Approved for Release 2022 02 01 c 00095171 ----------- ------- --lJ 0 0 0 - l- r Baron Ke have discussed the next phrase already 0 a iout ''El Denefacto - So let's move down to the phrase ' t 1 C framework of Sid's job I And then it refers to the name Ledford Does that or the phrases below it about Elint J h G R 0 memo bring anything back to you 7 i Dr Gottlieb Well it doesn't bring anything specific j - -- t back to c Dut here is where we get into this point that we were talY in9 about the job I had at the time he was tulr ing l to me And F lint R D was as I remember it an area that was r- _ not hilndlccl by TSO at all at that time or illlY tir c up to the - J L e tirr e I l ing i -ito A -i d it was one of the areas that I s loo left CL -id I forset now which component of CIA di it ilt '- thilt time 1 -i the context of the job thilt l did for nissell _ as his science advisor -·· You ure aware of what Elint means and so on Anu that is what it r icans to me reading it now l• r J 0 flu ron So it would have nothing to do with a discussiori oE assassination capubilities Dr Gottlieb _ _ ' • Mr Daron I don't think so •- ' ' · he ext note ' refers to translating machin And it goes on with sor ie other crypti_c references Would those notes refer to 1n any w 1y to the liscussion of ussassination capabilities Dr Go tlieb I doubt that very r iuch · 'Approved-for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I think it ef - -· r - _ 0 -- -- - -f · ·J q ·· - I R-ETf1-'% · - · · - - · - - -· · ' _- -' ·· - - · ffp ·f -- ·F t r · · _ - 0 14 0 0 0 moee to the mattes I r just mentioned of the work I was doio - t 1• p as Disscll's science advisor 1 3 a 4 Mr Daro 1 Let me represent to you that looked I C 5 at the letters CD and said that referred to a man who was i known as Country Doy at that time 1 G ii Does that help you out I 7 i Ii Dr Gottlieb ch L Mr I · J I'-- Gear I was trying to get something about the I-t-really doe 1 't - Daron Then there is a note that says Comment Does that refer in any way to the discussion of ussossination cupabilities _ • J - l Or Gottlieb mentioned Elint R D or translating machines ' something I was '· looking into in connection with the job I had at that time C hovin9 absolutely nothing to do L- That would be in the same context as we 0 as I remember it with ossassinution - 1- r Daron 0 C there is the word Anasthesi - misspelled 1 $ta t4 And finally '· Docs that refresh your recollection in any way as to _ v the discus' ion you h ltl with Dr Gottlieb _ Mr l laron No it does not refresh my raemory Do you have any knowledge of the source -' 0 - of auth6iity for discussing assassination capabiliti s or cstc 1blishiny a project to develop assassin ition capabilitic5 at the CIA Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I •r f _ t ffeli rt il t f 1h ' - - - - - -- - --•--- ' ' ' - · - '_ _ _ - f- _' · -- _- t ---• - Jr_ _i r - --- -_ · ' ' ' _ ' f -- ' _- ° ''·ftC '·C ·s· '· • c • _ -j - • f_ _ _t_ - _ ' ·i I _t_ _ _· _ · - 0 0 0 I lf · • -· e ' 0 1 II of an independent recollection of anything I have heard from ' II i my counsel's being briefed or what I have read or heard 4 c - • •' -_ 0 f - r·•· · · •i i - '• •• 5 - '·· if ·· ·· t -- ·• ·· - ' today independent of that Mr Daron First let me ask you thnt II Dr Gottlieb 7 li i Mr Daron C L· e B -i j 'I J I' ' no I have no recollection of that Now on the basis of your refreshed recol- the briefings you have received and ection based on materials you have seen what can you tell us about the source l1 •I of authority for discussing assassination capabilities r _ _ · -· ii 1 ' C establishing an assassionation capability proj ct 1 s an4 · u I _ ' -· _ or have qard -- but my impression now is that Bissell asked -r · 0 0 ing such a capability - · j Y f - · Dut that is ba ed on everything I have heard since you briefed rny counsel and since been talking about it Mr Daron to create such a capability or discussed with'hig crcat- ·· C e · Dr Gottlieb My impression now -- and I can't base this 7 on a specific conversation or a specific word that I read I _ - - - the 4 - · •• · · • '1 1 -·· • r G • · 'I You are asking mo on the basis are you I ··· ·- · 1 - Dr Gottlieb I _ _- · - 15 - t- - h c --- Ji · r Docs anything that you h«ve hcarcl·h i u · ·· _ • · · from J lan -· - ·· · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 16 0 0 0 - ' ' or this project 1 ' 0 ' c Dr Gottlieb I have no knowledge of that at all t 0 either from my independent recollection or from anything I 1 3 a 4 t1 have heard since I C Mr Daron testified that he took a 6 set of notes at some point probably in 1961 after he had held some discussions with Richard Bissell on the subject of 8 •I developing_an ----- ° f 1 - --- - i Executi ve Action capabil±ty J nd tnese notes contained a phrase that indicated to that Dissell had that the White louse had twice urged him to set told up an Executive action capability 1 8 C · 1 3 a 4 ' l ' ' C ' J '' L I 1 ' D i d - r 1cntion anytt ing in that connection to you when· you had your discussion with llllllt of Exe cu ti ve l ction capubilities Dr Gottlieb Mc Duron Do you have any knowledge from any source Lt J ' JI• C 0 0 1 ' · •·· 0 - - ' Executive ction project Dr Gottlieb I do not ' ·- - • ' • u c o -lhitc House urgings for the dcvelopmcnt_of an r Daron I don '_t have anything - or you 0 0 0 ' G 1 0 I The only specific na es that you could bring back were Bissell 1 a n d i C Ii C 0 r based on this refreshing of your recollection and then three EEP's Karamessines Helms and Desmond FitzGerald ii Dr Gottlieb And I mentioned that those three were 11 c· J 6 -··• 8 9 l 'i r- associated with TSO and the assumption that I talked about i these things with th II I' 1' Ii assassintttion capabilities would be used ever discussed with rJ either of those three men nr Gottlieb Not to my remembrance 1 J - I' 1 'I L 1 J I __ L based on a remembrance of briefing them on general capability i •I J II L • Mr Uaron Was there any onc else c i t the CIJ with i 0 i - whom you discussed the development of an assassin -ition c ip - - bility l · - - _ ' l ' L I r·- ' ' Mr Lcnzncr Other than what he has testified to already 1 3 a 4l Mr Daron Other than the general briefings that you t p-vc c1lready testified to 0 0 Mr Lenzncr c Mr Baron ·Yes 0 And t h e n d Castro matters v -' 1 3 a 4 ✓ t me 0 ---- - - in ---·--------------·------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 18 0 0 0 1 n ' r I ' e '0 ' Did you ever discuss the development of 3ssassination n 'I capabilities with either of those men or make an assignment to H 11 them to inquire into assassination capabilities 0 t Dr Gottlieb J re you talking ·now about specific targets i' s I need to understand the question better becuusc these are I· 6 j Camp Detrick J materic1ls there I i H two people that worked with me and were associated with •· I am not talking about any specific conver- sations I can recollect but just in the course of a working relation hir1 Mr lJnron First did you ever discuss the development of materials that could be used in an assassination attempt C· against a specific individual with C Dr Gottlieb c- l 1 • -'rd membr ince Mr naron l •· I• 1 3 a 4 My answer to thilt is not to my And without mentioning the na c of a specific individual did you ever have discussions with - C' C or - for your own purpose of developing mnterials · j that could be supply to an operator for an assassination Dr Gottlieb • to have done that - but i the course of i plemcnting the • - - - would have to h c · done that I i g 0 ' 19 9 1 ' I Ii 0 r c C 0 iI i G But in the context -- Dr Gottlieb Hr Daron IiI' If you are talking about in the context of the Executive Action Group if that is the question -Mr Baron No I am saying in the context of calling upon CI technicians or laboratories or materials at i Fort Detrick for se in any kind of assassination operation Ii or preparation for an assassination operation 1 - 7 I Dr Gottlieb I have al read¥-t-estifred my remembrance 1 3 a 41 i - - - c c - - _ µ 7Ji to that as to 0 C 0 l i c-- r-- II • ar d Castro You mean beside what I have testified - · - - ' ' - · - - - - J Mr Daron Right Dr Gottlieb - J e - And y answer is not to my remembrance d a l · 1 j 3 a l To your knowledge lid either or 1 •· · · J nee ci' for - - r 1 rr · ·1 1 in the Clandc' tinc Services about the materials or devices that could be considered assassination capabili ti - l- il t - • Lt J · 1 -· i if _ - - have indcren lent discussions with CIA officials· 0 1 ' Da ran c_ 1· r Dr Gottlieb To my speci fie knowledge th ngs tha t l tf _ _ _ i ttt - - -- knew about that they and not me talked about not to my C 0 0 j-· remembrance c lr f •t · 0 this before · as I unders na •·1 hcre··J ff ·· ·- - - tllilli - J1 ti the Fu t· Dctrict rnaten als · - - li Those arc be1 · r ff c- In all fairness for the· 'rccord Sid yqu Lcnzncr m ty have s tid distortion of studied not solely for offensive uses isn'i that correct - -· - _ · ' t · · -· iii J ' -- ' 4- Dr Gottlieb - Mx Lenzner Yes ' · You ought to amplify that perhaps oved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 o J · L _ · - • • J 7 _ _ _ · • · - -6Jr o - c ' Approved fS r Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 ' @ 20 I I II bit Because it sounds now in this conversation like they Ii 0 were solely for that i l I• '1 And I think you ought to make it clear I what they were there for Dr Gottlieb Let me comment that the work with Camp Ii l 1 6 both an offensive connotation in the sense of preparing for ' a contingency either in a hot war or some special operation 9 potential of U S individuals or inst llations being covertly ' attacked by BW aterials abroad 0- ' J i' Dct icK and the material which they kept on our behalf had ' Mr Daron C J r ·· e You keep referring in our discussion of Exe- cu ivc actinn to an Executive ction Group 0 What do you have 1n mind when you use that phrase ' l Dr Gottlieb C I thought I was playing_ ack a phrase -1 C G - '' that I heard fron you that had reference tci ·this specific mis i in I that Disscll was asking of 1 3 a 4 r ' ' _ ·-- -' · · • a 0 ' I have been using it in thut context · Mr Daron 0 0 q · Let me distinguish two thi· -g°L --'7 rr_ - WilS asked to set up an Executivc_ ction project _ • IC testimony priraarily co 'i'fi d o'f one· asset 0 • 3 a 4 - - v ' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 · 21 0 0 -· 0 - 1 •' used the term Executive Action Group 0 Dr Gottlieb 2 _ f Not at all news to me in my remembrance That committee came as nd some of the notes that you showed e indicated that the genesis was in the period that I was overseas 5 6 Hr Maxwell That is speculation on our part 7 Mr Lenzner It is not speculation that it came as• 9 • Mr Maxwell •i Jr ·1 c Ct And I am just making th t comr ient de- Dr Gottlieb _ · _ 1 rived from materials that you gave me to read and the dates on ' ' them ' 4 l · ·' Anyway in answer to your question I to that group when I - 1 3_ a 4 _ Li _ _ 3 · · was I ' J¼ i referring to this activity that we 1rc··centcred on in today's testi ony that involved i i - • I was not referring talked about Exec tivc ction C ' • - J V Dut the origins of the committee No - 1 ' I-Ir Daron f documents las any of your testimony and review of · on the subject of Executive ction refreshed your ··i ··t 1- 3 a 4 recollection so that you could ad l som ore detail tothe i record about this - 1 iJ i 1 h s ' tt jJI lt ' %' o' iifP J t iilt Irr - 00 -·• J f e - -1 f r reco l ' ' · Dis usi ion off th record ' ' ton c - iifl t- · - ' rec- t _ j f t iII next file rc rescnt1ng · -'· # --- r _ - -- - --- --- --·----- ' -- ----- ---_ - --- · ii4i ft - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 _ _ 'if ·· ·' · • • 0 0 22 0 ' - 1 ' N 0 r1 r I i material we have on the operational use of drugs I 2 3 4 The file that I am now looking at is Dr Gottlieb 1' entitled G i interrogation in 1958 file II Off the record Discussion off the record Mr Gottlieb Back on the record 6 7 The reading of the material in this file doesn't stimu- 1 'I a c my memory a ·a i I 9 o any i nvo vemen o rn1 ne nor anyt 1 ng - · heard about in this operation I r 1 ·· · N ·' I would note also that it was in the period that I was ·I l i'-- in Europe J C Mr Maxwell That is correct I 0 0 The Deputy Chief of the Eastern European Division in- 1 Jicc1tcs that there was a ruling from the Chief of Operc1tions - of the DDP that drugs were not to be administered in this particular case The interest that we have in this because it was not administered but rather proposed and 1 - considered by the CI or lower levels of the CIA was in the J decision-making process in regard to drugs and what light you M 0 0 i ci might be able to shed on that I think the record indicates 1 a 4 · _ - discussed the administration of drugs with a number of other individuals that had then _ proposed to the Deputy Chief of the CI staff that the CI staff give ppro1 riate consideration to a proposc1l to administer r the drug to the subject _ ------- -s- - - - - - - - - · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 e ti 1 ' 11 i 3 a 4 C 23 I' if familiar 1' ii C ii C E ii ' q '•' i The proposal to administer drugs was to assist ' 1 I 1 3 a 4 5 fl I• 1 6 r I 1 in with the proposed treatment and in agreement with such - -- verifying certain facts considered essential to the case The group apparently called together to consider the Ii s ii proposal wa$ the same group that had considered the 14 Tnrch 9 1958 memo fror t Mr Helms in regard to the formution of - I '- ' r--- 1 Ir policies and procedures for the use of druss in aid of the J oor mission -· r And the principal question is whether although you ' - • ere out of the country it was discusst2d with you or cor u11uni- C •' r' __ l ' -- were out of the country when you returned whether while you $ 1 c ited to you tlwt this Comr iittee w is in the future to be the L•· conITTittee that considered proposuls for the operationul use 1 of drugs or whether there were other bodies to which these proposuls should be referred Dr Gottlieb I don't have enough of 0 re ncmbrance of that to usefully comment on it Mr Maxwell Given the dcscrir tion as a psychotic with strong par inoid trends - c cscription th it from ct oE the individu2 L und given the medical stondpoint he should be co 1- fined to nn institution would you agree with a proposal - 1 3 a 4 C to administer drugs Approved for Release 202 24 0 0 0 - ' Dr Gottlieb 1 I have trouble with questions like that N 0 N You are asking me to hypothesize if I were there WO ld I agree That is a bit tricky for me answer I have to take myself back to that time and that sort C 0 I find it hard to ii i 5 of thing I would rather not comment on that since it is hypothetical and I wasn't there G Pardon me for a minute 7 My counsel advises me that it is appropriate here to comment that I don't have a specific remembrance but I know J these cases happened because you asked me yesterday I think J C J 0 cases where TSO for me decided we shouldn't go ahead with it on grounds such as these because of the health l 1 of the individual the mental health and physical health • C •• 'I l ' - · L were there And I think I testified then yes I can't remember 1 I the specifics but there certainly were some And in that I 1 J context going through the hypothetical situation you are asking me on now I think I would have agreed in this case that we shouldn't have administered drug or anything else to u C this chup for the simple reason that the possibility of breakinq through his illness and so on and damaging him -- I mean there was a chance of hurting him an l there was also a minimum - possibility of getting any useful information So I think my answer would be yes I would have agreed -· with that decision 0 0 0 ' e Mr Lenzner • I I l I have seen one file by the way I II 0 1 j 5 I i 0 t 11 I don't know whether that is i t or not that indicates that a decision was made on these grounds not to go forward with the 'I 1 '• 5 tr administration of drugs Dr Gottlieb And we agreed with it ii 6 i Mr Lenzner Is that the file I thought I saw one i' 7 1 There is one example that I remember I pointed out to Sid 'I Maxwell J 3 aJ 4 L U G 1954 regard to Ii 1 J ' _ There is a reference in the file in where the and particularly to Dr Gottlieb indicates that because of il previous suicide -' ' •• attempt headquarters did not recommend the use of P-1 and • the succeeding cable from Dr Gottlieb 1 3 aJ ' concurs in th 1t judgment the administration of f'-1 to th 1t individu il Mr Lenzncr At this point all the files begin to mer e l as all the days are Mr Maxwell There is one reference to a memo from the De g 0 0 - J puty Chief of the CI staff to the Chief of Oper 1tioris of the DDP who later ruled that drugs should not be administered nd that reference is th it for your further information the · Office of Security is prepared to arrange for his permanent - confinement to a mental institution upon the request of the Office o Operations To the best of your recollection while you were at chc Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 'f Agency did the Agency make use of any relationships that it l N 0 f 3 a 41 · C r I 6 Ii ij I have no Dr Gottlieb remembrance of that at all And that is interpreting your question as hroadly as I know I y O U---S-O i d I b a Ve --- -- --- ------- -it- -- --- - ----- ________ ----------- 8 -------_ JI- 1rro _ w- ---- cr--tt1verr bey On d 'ha t - l ran Ce O f ------ any facilities that I knew anything about that were used for •j 11 i- I any purpose like that • li - -· 11 n O r c ie rn b i-lr IHll you just move on to the next file ' a - • cll i J nr Gottlieb That file is labeled No Detter lnterro- c ition l'JSS C no ice reading the first file here that it rc ers to another cose · ••• But you want me to stick to ·no better 1 Lcnz ner M - it too There is a cover memorandum that references There is overlap in all of these files That is correct ith the cover operating bccc1use they ere continuin9 from the operating divisions 0 C' C The r e - t file is in chronologic 'll sequence r Jr Gottlich No LI e t t t r c c1 s e nut you don't ant t1e to discuss the ---- _' - - w- 7- - - _ f -· -' -- t • •__ ✓ r- t- fa -f · · • · nythin • i i · · ' Cf · --j -- - i t - ' f - ' Out the 8 • -c· · shoul hotci that it was at a time when Dr Gottlieb was oct -------·--·-- the country -·· · -ET _____ ---·- -- -- ·- ----- - ·Approved for Release 2022102101·coo·ogs171 rcco·rd -- •' ol 27 0 0 0 '-' l In the i terest of time becacse I do Dr Gottlieb 0 ' i ' S ccifically remember · reading this yesterday I have no in- I I i dependent recollection of this I I don't remember it being •I ·1 5 1' I 'I j mentioned to me when I got back or later than that I think there was one dispatch about getting the materials back and thE 11 G That still would have been a period bottles being empty 11 I 7 i that I wouldn't have anything to do with I thilt I have no I '---' C 9 - i- I 1I i l ' i'- l '-· I would like to take a two-minute break here 1cces s Mr Maxwell On the record J ' G J The fo Detter file includes a mernor iric lum for the Chief 1 - C of Opcr i tions from the Deputy Chief of the Co int cr Intel li jencc staff inc lic J ting that an d lloc Committee cor i o ed of J _ c ' and the Deputy Chief of Counter Intelligence had consic lered -$ t ir dmit h tE s t' bi s1o - to· -clmin is-t -r 1 M d£viduaL The decision by this Ad lloc Committee apparently was o -i _ chain in the i provnl mechanism for administering P-1 as of Jul C of 1958 - When you returned from overseas were you told about the existence pf a co nittce such as this to approye _ • - - I• c ruy op 1 rations · I · ·-·· Dr Gottlieb of that I don't have a specific remcm ranc nut I want to remind you that the period from the ------------------- ---- r o s· SE eREl - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 _ - ·1 · ·- - '- • z z -r _ - - i t - --· ·- · •• ' - '•'- ' i_ -' _ T · · -- - i _ - ----1----- ---- --- - • -'- · - -- '- i f 0 G l ii ·--t - % 2 t- _ -• · S - ' - - _ · CREr cn -_ -·· _ ··--- _ _ · 1 7 -1_ - - • c S - - · ------ - i f tff l r -· i 0 0 l ---- • 28 tir ie I returned from urO C - _ ct·o r of 1959 tht'ough someti - e 0 ii 7 1961 when I sot back to sort o a line job in TSO wus l1 Ii II s criod that I was not concerned with in this area primarily lj I Hasn't I I I I I had no line responsibility I Mr Mil Well 6 understand it 7 advisor to the DDP7 9 11 10 r--- • Mr Mc1xwel 1 l nd during thilt time my understanding I' 0- C Jlowever you were at thilt time scientific Dr Gottlieb Yes 8 c- There was no li e responsibility as I Ii 0 is that you prepared a repo t entitled Scientific and Tcchnicul Problems in Covert Actions Operations which in- 1 J I ' l • · i eluded us un appendix a section entitled The Applicc1bility of Special Chemicals and 11iologicals to Clunt estinc Operotions 1 - In prcrc1ring C _ L 1 · '·-- I• that report o yo recc1ll whether you had learned of a w oup within the Agency which ap rovcd -if off --· •a µ l ic at ions of chemicals or biologicals in support of clandestine opcrc1tions Or Gottlieb the report I really don't eme er that I rcmer 1L c r I remember in fc1ct reuding about it in some material you gave tis on the Inspector General's r port 1 don't rei71cmber hearing about such a grou -- I Out am not suyir I didn't but we are talking about spcci ic remembrc1nces ✓ - or thilt upproval mechanism being an item of specic1l attention enough for me to looi into it in that articular report Mr Mc1xwe 11 The mcmbershi of the 1 d lice Car uni ttce Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 · · · 29 0 0 0 - @ 1 at least in egard to this operat on included a number of 1 indivi uals associated with TSO is that correct i1 0 i 0 I Dr Gottlieb Say that again ii Mr Maxwell 'I s The membership of the J d l oc Committee Ii 1 which considered this operation Ii I G 7 Dr Gottlieb • ·1 11 I CJ ---aacJ I Dr Gottlieb From what I read there yes Mr Max1 ell From the material that you have read and '-· from nny recollection that you might have independent of that J I e la We H •I l r 11 - L• being on it ii -' would have to read it again but I remember Gibbons an G C I would it be likely that TSO was in so e w y involved in the 0 1 c onsideration of future requests fo the opccationill U e of 1- drugs ' 'I L ' I' I ' · Dr Gottlieb far ·• • On the basis of wh«t I have read so my answer would be yes •· that is very likely The memo also indicates that P-1 would __ - be used first and if that were not successful Merctran oul l 0 0 be used C Although you were not involved in this operation V 0 ·_ havin had 9omc knowledge of the application C C in the past do you have an opinion as might be used 0 Dr Cottlieb I ave no opinion t iat that is the reverse of what was r ow maybe Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I like the o es t ey had But as I ead this file that oper ition never cume off So they wouldn't have had any experience facto derived from that operation Mr Moxwell G I • Would the met bership of this committee represent the same membership as the QKl ILLTOP Committee Dr Gottlieb 'I I I would have to read again who was on 1-J 1 ---- - rJii T M r- -M a x_w_c_l_l_ --i r- -- - G-i b-b o-n-s o r • -i G u n ••··········-·-·-· •-··-·-•- - ·- CJ r·' 1 3 a 4 r--- G 1 1 - Hr Karamessincs and the Deputy Chief of the Cq_un l C f tcr Intelligence staff J L 0 Dr Gottlieb I 0 1 -· the rtichokc Co mittce 1 fror the DDP C CJ 0 1 There was much more representation this committee th rn there w i on the i rticho c Committee or the l illtop lJ I Mr '' r-· I am going on my remcmbr 1nce of who was on Max lell Committee · -- Are you using those two interchangeably Or Gottlieb Yes bec 1use I underst in l the Hilltop gain we h 1ve talked al out-- group w is a follow-on of Artichoke this is a confused areu but what l am trying to say here is this comr iittcc sounds to me -- and I am just giving you sort of because I don't have _ _ - - 4 -'i --·- i c 1t 'i- c specific rcrr crnbr 1ncc of_ __it · - --_- __ ' i __ ·- - - i tt r it sounds to me lik e -it is rnuch inorc of --1 i'ODP • •Committc·c··1- •i•t • A - • • • •' • a couple of f - • ' • J - • • - ---· _J - '•· · i· In other words' '_'it· ' - -#- - _ ls something · - i ' J i · - ·------ ----- •• • · intcrn il to his organiza i_on _···--- --- --- ----- -- - -_ · i 12 i kt t · ' - I t¾t i h -t J t'i other pcoole - tac ·cd on · - 9'_ • • · •x- _ ' '-· ' · · •'t • · - •• • --- - - i - -- - _- _e-9 - - - -- r 1 · --- --· pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - -- ------------ I Jl 0 0 0 Lanzi1e - •' I What is this Co ittee called I Dr Gottlieb It has no na e yet It is an ad hoc com- I I I mittee C i r Maxwell 5 Mr Lenzner G of P-1 and l -2 7 Mr Daron Mr D iron In regard to this committee yes Dr Gottlieb rtichoke ancl Hilltop -- and I am talkin J-- c- - There is no name attached to it l nd they were reviewing the specifications Yes L l • 11 about l illtop in connection with a coordinating group and not J - a project J 0 1 · representative of the whole l gency I-Ir _ - - l _ Daron The mcmorilndum that was prep Hed by this ilcl hoc co wnittee then went to the Chief of Opearations of the DDP I· -- those t rtichoke and Jlilltop Cor unittee were more for r-1r elm There is no indication 0f further approv il the administration of P-1 Has i t your recollection of the administration of P-1 or l -2 in which you were involved that the authorization hy the Chief of Operations that ODr would be uch or was there a re uir nent th it the 001' himself si Jn l off on these - Dr - Gottlieb -I think on the basis of what l have read and what help that gives me in jogging my own recollection that l h i d the im ression it was the DDP T nd I think we h ivc c 'l Jles on other O er itio 1s where the ODP ap roved Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 32 0 0 0 @ Dut I a not sure l I r ' 0 - - ' - Da -on I I the co ittee considered the Ad Hoc Cor ' mittee conside -ed the opera ional use of drugs how would that t be reflected in at all in TSS £iles TSO files - Dr Gottlieb I don't think it would have any reflection J on TSO files Mr Daron 7 So a meeting tho t was at tended by Dr Gibuons and would not be refer_Q oced at all - en - TSD files j ' J •• i'J i '- Dr Gottlieb I And the reason I say this is just 1 i a general recollection I have that we tried very hard not to l keep operational files like this in our hands they ere in J C J 0 4 0 J the l1ands of the operational division or in this case whoever • C ' C as runnin9 this co ittee c 'Ir Lcnzncr _-- I don't want to intcr olatc here uut it ·- docs sec like from these files that operational use as in I ' several instances approved by cable to t h e _ or to these outlying areas C Ts thatnot right There do sec to ue cables tll 1t reflect that Dr Gottlieb This is in terms of what kind of record w - i s kept e ' hat I a n saying is I don't rc icniber a record being ke t-in TSD of the operational side of this assumed this was a sensitive area -1 0 We that the operational eople ere runninq hese operations which 1 ·e 'ere S f portin J c-c ------------- - Apprnved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 •• • • • - - - - - · - · ·· _ 33 0 0 0 were in control of whatever files · ·-- _ 0 Mr Maxwell The authorization in response to counsel's C comment was often contained in cables 0 i Dut that wouldn't necessarily obviate the requirement that there be other • ·-· - papers reflecting the authorization or reflecting meeting in 6 which authorization was sought or received Hhat we would like tote able to try to do is understand what records •i 8 mi9ht exis nd wbcrc-A he-y-might be-l oc ated ------- - -1 - • · ·· 9 ii t' £ ·- 1 1 Dr Gottlieb will you go on to the next operation The next op ration is called J ' j - Dr Gottlieb • -i 0 l - i - 1 i z r Maxwell Off the record Discussion off the record Dr Gottlieb I have read this file C It brings back no _ - i 1 Ji 11 II recollection to me of anything I was involved in personally ' ·' 1 - 1 l • nor do I have any recollection of it t · l Mr Haxwell 1 i - and beincJ shown this only for the purpose of jogging his r ' ' was not in the country at the time this proposal was made -· M 0 0 0 - The record should show 'that Dr Gotti icb I ' _ - i t u c i recollection c' to whether this interrogation inv i · f- - ·- · - _ Dr Gottlieb ofr _th rec or l · Mr z ixwell Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ----- _ _____ -- g 0 - 0 1 0 V - '' 'i 0 t 6 7 0 l i III 11 t' 1 10 Ii 'J -- I r-- c l2 I think rr y c nunent on that would have - to be based on what I have read but not to an independent •I recollection of mine I ' I• 1 C Is that correct Dr Gottlieb 11 of your recollection • There was a procedure coming in I L·' 1 'I ii · 1 - J7 5 Ir 3 f 5 • ' time where the DDP hnd a committee on which security was 're rcsentcd this ad hoc committee we referred to in cases luted before this one that commented on cases of P-1 intcrrogatio s 1' 1 ·-· C at·Utis _ _ c -· r·· 0 C ·interrogations to the best 'I e understand your testimony differentiate it from earlier P 1-1 I J The file does indicate that the propos3l i was approved by the Office of Security whJch would if I 'I fact it took place ·'ii 9 L-- - L· Ii1' · I' _ - circumstances the interrogation was proposed or whether in ' 1 i ntl' on that basis I wou _say_ ' 7 s er ucstion yes that is correct Mr Maxwell The earlier P-1 interrogations in hich 11 1 ''- · - _Y ·ti -1 f· you had been invo tved particularl •· ·-- - had g u c 0 c not to the best of your knowledge involved - - ' ---security approval J c f 0 5 I 2 - •' · • ·• Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 JS 0 0 0 e l P-1 was familiar with its use and had worked with the tech 2 nique in Europe 0 Do you have any recollection of who th t might refer 0 Dr Go tlieb t For instance -- and I am basing this c I' 5 what I 6 considered part of I I1' have read and trying to help you -- i s f pe and Dortner went over t with the possibility of using P-1 -- as I remember in this 8 i '° j I'C j • I fit him II II ing 9 11 as I was used 11 '• As far as I am concerned I have trouble remembe - told you in those 1954 cases whether or not P-1 I don't remember it being used nut if it as I• J l i used r 0 L I Ould be another who would fit this description Lashbrook also could have ' although I don't rcme bcr ' any spccif c ca es here he was involved in P-1 use I or but he could have been '1 ' ' C · ' 1- r M JX ell l r ' L · l a s - ever involved 1n P-1 j r·1• 1 _ · '- - 0 0 0 ' • ' use o p'ei-¥ Dr Gottlieb I would have to say not to my specific remembrance that Mr r ·_ · e ·- I really can't cornmcnt·accurately on Ma ' e 11 Docs it refresh your recollection at J that the approval for this would be needed in the field by p · · ---- -- -1 Febr-uary 19 9 __ - · · · • _-_ ► _ Dr Gottlieb t o that doesn't refresh my memory •· I was the person they were talking about abou_t l February in my tirnc there I didn't leave Europe u SECRET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 there is not ing pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I · •¼_ - ' f · · · ---- - - 80 35 l ' 2 t tions 11 relevant considera- I really can't help on that · Ii t H confirmed this with the Office of Security -- this referred 0 0 t 1 3 a 4JS C September of I i 0 G Mr Maxwell Iii Apparently and I have not independently li to the best of 1 I your recollection were there any other instances 7 the files which you C Dr Gottlieb C'- _ aside from have seen where P-1 was used tlone that I can specifically re nernber r 10 ----- I an understanding your question to mean another on the C l L· C J j basis of my independent recollection or on the basis of any- l _ thing 1 a a 4 _ _ r- read whether there are cases of th uses of P-1 '· I J _ ' ' _ l l 1 c 1 · 1-lr ·l ixwell tlot involving things thut you have reacJ I ii I' to your independent recollection were there other cases I other than the ones that you haver cad j 1 I 1 -· Dr Gottlieb Not to my independent recollection ind I might add nor based on anything that I have read 0 You arc talking aoout Europe now · 0 ' Cl ci t3 s 4 5 ' j · C ' f -1 3fa 4 -· - __ C • •1 -1r Maxwell Dr Gottlieb - t o I am talking about I don't know how you woulc define the file which comes later And based on what I have read that was used tr -taxwe l l I am differentiating that from ·--- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 when there had bc-c ff0 · · · -_· - ·- • 0 0 0 37 ' e 1 knowledge of 0 2 Dr Gottlieb C 0 That is a confusing question And my • ' answer is the same whether-you make that qualification or not · but it is confusing 5 6 7 nut anyway my answer is I don't remember any other -· ·c Mr Maxwell 9 f F· I'-- l c- L· Ii were there any uses of P-1 that you can recall I Dr Gottlieb I 0 1 -- l _ C µ _ · He showed me t h i l nut -tr Lenzner With reference to Dr Gottlieb He is not tidking about · · - 1 '· iI I _ p - - ' l-ii ' Decausc if you are talk· -' ab ut t h i ' · ' I lr use of P-1 in cJ - 'r- ·- - l'i · ·•- i - Mr Lenzncr C 0 c- th J t ' C l - - i not relevant J ' _ •- • - 7 • J C In order to make the record clear - - ' - That is confusing V c Mr Muxwe 11 now ' · · fii¼i ' Dr Gc -ttlicb The ansv er is not to my remcmbrance j --t i - t- · 'ff 1i·- tJtF -Ir -1 lxwell J nd in particular a ny use·_to the best of • yn • _ __ - -- -- ---_ -- ------'---- · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -- - --- - f - - -· -- ' '- · - -··•·· • - - _ t _ J ' _r -·-1·' _ -·· ·1 ·• · f · • ✓- •• _ -_ - - • ti -' - _· _- ·_·- _ --- ---· t· r g 38 ' 1 ' 0 1 2 ii 3 Dr Gottlieb Not to my remembrance 11 1 You asked roe a general question yesterday about using II Ii II 5 i P-1 on I think you said foreign individuals in the G S 6 jl l nd I 13 q• said no And I assume that would include this category I Mr Maxwell j would you like to go on to the effects file •I Dr Gottlieb The next file is labeled I I wante l to focus on this particular one l 3 W J C w u II Can you · J 2 J cable •I 0 1 • Jo C ' ' 'jF' do better than I reading this almost impossi l II Mr Maxwell uttached an l refers in fact to the Dr Go'ttlieb '-· · 1 i I believe that this cable was mistakenly ·1 I see On the basis of that this brings nothing to my oc ory __ as far as I am concerned l And at this point I have no recollc - tion of whatever operations planned or exec ted that this rcfcis 0 0 to -- I shouldn't say executed carried out 0 _ C - Mr Maxwell Would it be your impression fro what you have saicLand __ fro any J ndepcndcnt rccollectio'n- y'oi 'mighttt ' ··t- __ 'Jflff Jt r t_ ·ti1 tr - - •Ii - · -- y t ·t r - f t'3fA - • • have· of the 'procedures fol lowed within the gcncy that_ hc __ - _ lff i i- - - --' • i --·· tF ·f -_ - _ • 1 itYMf1- •- iJ · J ·tf 4· · phrase in the memo aatcd 23' · pril ·19s9 to th Deputy Direc-j' ' · -- '- e tor of Sccud t' 'f' which is as follows · _·· · is_ r ad hc'' i 1 cEJi vc · - -- - r ··• -- · _ _ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -- - ' 0 - 0 0 G l it and the let all comrnittec mc bers kno ir tmcdiately refers to the committee formed hile you were 'l 'ay which 0 a considered operational use of drugs in the previous instance t Dr Gottlieb ·i 3H Mr G Dr Gottlieb The •next file is labeled Septer ibex Q 1959 7 l • r -· • '- ' Would you go on with the next file Hr Maxwell - Max ·ell Discussion off the record c __ It sounds that way to me s C 39 Dr J L Gottlieb I have read the file inctcr cnc lcnt recollection of 1hc1t operation C C Dack on the record Lh t refers to nor wc1s I briefed later when I cc1 c buc% 1 - 0nd I have no just hc1ve l - r otlling to add at thi roint J i l · i Ir Lcnzncr Th t is ugain 1959 j I 1 15 September 1959 • · 1 Dr Got t li e b I r I-la xwe l l I wc1s not bc1ck then The memorandum to the Chief sr dated 15 Scptc oer 1959 on the subject of possible use of drugs iid hypnosis ri-•opcr ition 1l ireils rr fers to c iscuss -- bctwce the D put Chief of tile Cour tcr Intelligence staf • riter 'ho was the Deputy Chief of SRS of TSS c nd rcprcsf ntntiitcs It indicates that TSS hc1d a r rcntly opposed the 1ttcr 11 t to u c hypnosis To the best of your rccollcctio 1 as TSS ia othe - instances involved in the conside -ation o ' TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - 1 I 2 i II I can't hang it on a specific case We had an interest in hypnosis by the Agency N 0 N _ C 0 € I I 'I •' ·' I think my answer to that would be yes Dr Gottlieb hypnosis We had done some research on it My interpretation p I 5 I of that Perno upon reading it is a little different than you 6 I 11 ·t Reading the interest in security in it I assume i t has something to do with narcohypnosis rather than hypnosis unaided 'I I 8 rugs 11 I I Mr Maxwell 9 lad TSS ever been involved previously I 10 I in any narcohypnosis II 1 C Ho Dr Gottlieb i J __ l · ' J L ·- 0 1 - ·· 0 Mr Maxwell ' llac 1 they been involved in consideration o of proposals to use narcohypnosis operationally t I assU1i1C they would have in the sense Dr Gottlieb 1 j• c 1 S al 41 L• C 1 I 1 ' ·' 1 · · I 0 0 ci The underlying memorandum dated 21 Mr Maxwell and another CIA officer l ugust 1959 indicates that and that the writer of the memo J ' would talk with J • ould also talk with _''· lso inform his chain of command since use of hypnosis arid 0 u - that TSS was reco vnended on the l rtichoke Cammi ttec It notes that the writer will 1 _ · _ _ ·- ·· t · ·' ' •1' ' · e - - - -···· ••• J drugs on fhi case called for a - i --· -ultimate decision by tlr • -llelms _ u5 WC This would apparently reflect a similar approval mcchanis s · · -- l avc even in the last files -ith the Chief of O crati '- _ Or Gottlieb I would agree with that ------- - Tjp __ OIERET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 -· cooo 95171 41 0 0 0 - e ' 0 - i n • C -Office -- being involved as well as the of Security of the Counter Intelligence staff ' Mr Hax- ell Dr Gottlieb The J d lloc Committee Mr Maxwell J nd TSS or TSD at that time ' 1 Dr Gottlieb Yes Mr Maxwell Dr Gottlieb Would you go on to the next file The next file is labcle _ --- Defore going on with that file Mr Maxwell ii ' ·- 1· i - Dr Gottlieb can you to the best of your recollection indcpcn- i l r dent of what you have seen in these files put a naoe on that J c_·• e C· car unit tee l l Dr Gottlieb Independent of what I have seen on these files you are talking about the Cor 1mittce that seems to have been headed by the Deputy Chief of the· CI sta f°r a -d _ referred to in the mer ios I have -seen as tl Hoc Coi unittce I i' tf ' - - --·- really can't - Mr Maxwell • - • ' - I - - r • h e have talked in the past al out the aut 10 ' · --• • r- _t--• orization process for the use of P-1 prior to the formation c Lt • of t is group If there was u com mi t t c or group of Dr Gottlieb I· r ·lax1 ·e 11 Dr Gottlieb During this period Prior to th - n l of ·icl l we both people - - - - - ----- - T - - · - - _ pproved for Release 202210210 1 c 00095171 ------ -- • 0 0 0 42 ' 0 icd I 'I 0 -- that • ·as a very confusing a -ea hat committees ol there wcre and what names they had I I t II rt ichokc Com 1i t tee and QKllILLTOP Car unit tee 5 i if e can call it that had something to do with the approv ll --with the dis- i cuss ion of research programs ond the opprovol and discussioi1 o · 5 ' I p ii 6 certain operations · ii 7 And to me the names ij To my remcr tbrance prior to the formation of the Co ittee that you were referring lo we so far had beer i' 8 called the i d lloc Committee the P-1 opcrc itions were not tcJkcn 9 ' up by a co ittee but were approved by the DDP 1 _ I ·t -' · r l-luxwell Hay we go on to that file r--- first cor iment un this file is thut J I L' My Dr Gottlieb _ 0 I •I don't t -iinr I would hi'lv remembered thei1· operuti n witliou rcadiny it l3ut h ivin J rc id it J I do have' nmc r icr iory of t he J i it okay thilt we refer to that _ C individual that way-- being involved in it And the rest of t i·L my knowledge of the specifies cor ics r- fro 1 reading these t - 'O files Mr Maxwell 0 0 Do you want to sum ur whot your is of those two iles7 · - -···· • V Or Gottlich - e ' - · - - _______ J i W JEt 1-- •_· imi1rc sion is l y - - -' - · ·-'··-r -· - t 1l 1 1t it 1t ift 1 ¥j l _ - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 __ - 0 0 0 ' 'f Mr Max we 11 1 '0c 2 process C Dr Gottlieb 0 f Personally that on 1 3 a 4 C _ There is a reference here -- I will have to reread it -- the case was mentioned or discussed with me and I really would 1 r v I 'I pcorle involved or suggested to 7 -- j have to reread it but I either discussed with the operationnl ' 1 3 a 4 c -' ' into · ·_ 1 r Maxwell Oid you recall any othP r information about I your role in thut independent of the -- J J Dr C said I Cottlicb before r ad No the Independent of it file I I would have ' couldn't remember uny role t o· J • -1ith the file CiJn you re ie1 1 Jer c1 1y- thing other than -Dr Cot tlieb '-ir -1a 1s·ell • - hat I have said _ tlo · I 6 July 1%0 0 C There is a menorandum in the tile dated The rncm8riJr dur 1 is for the DDS by the De iuty Director o Security ' ·-1 and is signN It notes that ill inter- I • I roqation tcch iques including the polygraph had failed in · · · this particulc1r instc1ncc it was therefore rroposcd t h 1 1• w a certc1i 1 dru J he used on this subject and this office -- li ilrc 1tly referring to _ a -- 1 - cl c1 meet inn of the Office of Security -- approved ii' • 1 _ the drug comr ittce on l July 1960 ·I r ior to reading this die you h we any -ccollccti o - f · r - · • i - I I 0 0 0 0 N 0 44 I ' N 2 I I a body called the drug committee or a group called the drug committee within the CIA 11 Dr Gottlieb j· 0 i t ·i No I made the assumption that it was this same l d lloc Committee '· J · I' 3k C Hr Maxwell nut you have no independent recollection of •' 'i Or Gottlieb 8 Mr Naxwell Dr Gottlieb No Will you go on to the next one This file is labele to -- and I have looked it over beforc 'h i n 1 '-· • • r r want to reread it J t ' r • Haxwcll I r think it would be u eful if you can ------ look a the part referencing your involvement which should • i be marked by a blue slip Dr Gottlieb 11 right C• ti Discussion off the r cord r-- Br Maxwell Dack on the record Dr Gottlieb - C 0 0 I am stopping here in my rereading of _ this file because you wanted sor ic discussion of this cable ·_ j f th it mentions my pnrt icipation in the plunnin J for this_ 9pcr - - ·· ·-' •·• · -L t 1t tion 1 ncl as I said before I wouldn't havc rememberc·u · - t ·i - Jf f if TS I without reading this coble I wouldn't huvc _rcmcrnberetl f l ' I ' p 1rticipation - nut now that 1 rei d the cable I can pniYZ 1- · · · -· ·_ - ' - ·' ' that i 1pparently did discuss this operation wit t ° ·· · ' i•- _ -- • • - -- - ·- - ·· ' ' - · •c -¼ r ind then L1tcr w i t h _ _ Lack in --- ------- --- ----- -·------- -- ----- - --- h 1-d 1u ' r --- ------- - _ r - - · · ti i' PrRET - c·' · 0 0 0 - 45 I I 1 ' '0 l I Mr Maxwell Do you recall whether or not you agreed that ii I o 1 'I 1 0 € the case warranted the use of A 2 and possibly -1 Dr Gottlieb '• · I II Hot independent of this cable but reud- ' ing the cable that is exactly what I did Mr Haxwcll Oo you have any recollection of the grounds - - - - - - - - - - - - f1 upon which __ jQ_1LJRc de that ·ud ment - --c- -------Lc -- ---' -------------_ _ ____ Dr Gottlieb I 1 3 a c_ ts - 0 - 1 r--- Ho I don't specifically recall that r can only say based on a generul relt emhrance of how these cases were discussed that here as u psychology 111111 11 fft with some experience in these materials in terms of the • fact that he was familiar ith them and familiar with ocher J I• e cperations in which they were used nd C • 1 ould have dis __ '- _ - · - ·_ ' he cussed with me from his psychological poin o ' view · I th 1 o - trN' ' · 1 - ' •c _ l u ' operationc1l benefits to be dcriv cl l ncl hc rinr1 that - probably ugrcc l with him I -·· 1 llow w 1s he familiar • 1i th this Mr Haxwe 11 Dr Gottlieb i l • • • •• · 1 • • I g hi rn I • • • I I ·1 1- r · Mil - wcl 1 Where 'ould the m lte ial Le · atcri l be availahlc to hici at TSO - ------- l i1 And it wasn't unusual for r p Pl T Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 p 'C 4 1 -M Jf •• pproved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95171 r - 1 I 0 0 0 1 1 a all to have access to these files they were frequently G 46 0 ' t --f cons lted in terr is of drug assisted interrogations In a few cases they happened to be but much more in i discussions of indirect assessment problems I ' They spent when they were at headquarters more time with the area divisions than they did in TSO because of the nature of their work G 7 And they were always looking at operational files 1 -I 1r 1 i --1 11r c _J ·11i i 2$X WC£e 1Ul __JB u t t o t h e b _e s_ t _' o f y o u 1 _ r r c c o l l e c t i o ' -- ----- there wouldn't be files on TSD's role let's say in Small 0 ii J · I r Grou -id Dry Cleaning in Dr '·- I ct J C i 1 I c H1 do - ' Mr -- interrupt for I o ninute and talk to my counsel it later if you wi h 1-lax'w'cll Gack on the record Dr Go t t 1 i e b J I· 1 · -- Ho there would not Recess 1 - L Gottlieb TSO I think I h ive made the gencrc1l comments on this and I nm ready to respond Mr l- c1xwcll l There is a 2' M iy cable fron the Director •ith the_ releasing officer and the authentic iti J to officer hl rnl- ed out which indic tes that spccif ic per iission · ·· crom heaclqu 1 te rs must· _be ··- obtained i r or ' _ f techniques U_S of any unor ho- - - · -· · · r _ _· • -r • - if · • - - • J - __ · l· I J -f ·loul l unorthodox techniques apply only to r-1 or wo11l_ - • they 1pp l y to rtichcikc _ t' 'PC techni 1ues · as well L r Gott icb f· I assume-tJ 1at they would µ Jly to ·'- ' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95171 __· ---· ---11- 0 0 0 i 11 47 A ichoke type techniques as well i l•lr Maxwell And this special perr iission from head- 1 • quarters requirement is consonant with your recollection of the procedures utilized Dr Gottlieb Yes it is Mr Maxwell J J 3A5 t 5 7 r 1n If A-2 or P-1 was brou ht to in tc rpre ta tion or if it we re taken - e Physic 1lly how would the individual who was conducting 1' ·ac tu_ally provi cd the r ia terial the interrogation have gotten it '· - Dr Gottlieb '' Ile probahly 'would h-'lVC _ · so ici JrJCj' tr- - in the chcr 1ic il brunch of TSO Ma --w0 ll -- gotten it fror J · hat kinds of logs were there kept uy the Chcr icul Lli unch of TSD c Dr Gottlieb r '·· l ' - r aX 'Cll ' · o - A-2 be De j ·- I I don't really rencr c - th 1t l ould every inst rnce of rclc ise of r- lo Jgcc _ i th in the brunch Gott lie J hat records were kept 1· lt it 1 M 1 rcully don't ha• 0 if ilny I i rcmcr ilirc1 nce of just o 't %now rying to iy is th it I didn't keep those r0 c ·-·r1 p0rson illy ind I rcally·don't re ember if records ibo t a rautter like the one you are isking ubout wcce kept - - r 1 luX Jell Chcr i cc1 l l t one point lid y- u serve the Chief o · H r 1nch of 'i'SD Dr Cott l i ch Yes at some JQ t I die II 0 0 0 - 48 11 1 l ' - - Mr Maxwell • What were the dates of that service if I 0 r - i you can recull 1 C 0 •' t ii Dr Gottlieb I would say the dates were 1951 to 1957 • I· Mr Maxwell During that period of time you were involvJJ l in at least one r-1 interrogation and according to your G recollection at least two j You were both persons who might well have had the material and also were responsible as Dranch ' '1 c·• 9 · - the procedures thc1t ere followed in relensing the material Dr ' 1 L - '· ·' Chief for providing it Gottlieb My problem is that I don't remember the procedures and that I probably was not the person personally J handling the LSD · r ' 1 3 a 4 I l • ho 1-Jould th it have been Dr GottlielJ C '- -ta c cll am sayin J I Possibly Dr Lashbrook or just don't remember That is one of those 20-ycar t hinCJs nr Max· ell The question is rc1iscd in the co -itext no t on 1 y o f the s c in t e r r o g a t ions and the re le u c o - 2 i 1ci i'-1 but it mi ht h broadened to include the roceuu -0 ' j utilized in TSO for the release of products of the -Li -l O • I The -e is inforr i ition that wv s - adc 'u L pro r i n is ell i out the passage of trc ite l d irts from SOD to CIA Do you recc1ll the records that were kept • • e o o the rcc• i •· 1 iteri ils from t 1c 1-l l O - I 11rogr Jra from SOD Dr Gottlieb I don't recall th it As I sa -' C8£t - - - ·--------- -- T Approved for Release 2022102101 C00095171 0 0 49 0 1 0 ' V i II personally involved in it nd I don't recall whether there were procedures or what those procedures were l ·' V C 0 Mr Maxwell £ Do you recall any logs being kept indicat- ing either receipt or disbursal Dr Gottlieb r I recall there were logs on docu- i 6 m nts that we got That was a standard procedure 7 i don't remember what the analogous thing with materials was I hr Maxwel 1 Dut I hen yo were head of the chemical branch or deputy chicfof TSD or Chief of TSO do you recall at any time seeing an inventory of the materials prcparc l at SOD fol CI which had been transported to CIA and 'were presently J bcin J held 0 Dr Got l 1 i e lJ I don't rcrn mbcr seein J such an invcr - tory • i·lr Lenzncr it was t_ha t t ic or woody r icn tioncd re were trips m ' lclc I can't remembc r who to ilnd from Fort Detrick obtilin materials from t cir inventory -- I thought maybe it w 1s you Elliot thc1t mentioned that to me for the g purpose or not ct tine_ u 1 Detrick · 0uld 1' t know c x 1ctly when the CIA 'was «bout to use 1 st 1nc anl schedule so that tort_ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I 0 I i 0 - 1 ' • 1 0 · 1 a I' I 0 f he on a nu88er of ocaasions levied re uirements on fort d - 50 I 0 1 reguirements was not necessarily connected with an actual I I 3 _ 'I 6 7 opcriltion l Jut was done in order that Fort Detrick would never I •' 1 Ii be able to pinpoint an actuill operational requirement has testified as to the presence of logs hnd 1· •' d 1n regard to classified documents but has provided no inferi' ation on other record-keeping and other ways of logging in th i • materials from Fort-Detrick Ii t_' l'-1 i r--- ·- • I think the first part of that is whi t you arc refcrriny to 1 J 'Ir I C Lenzner If the gcncy WilS goin to such cffo ts to keep Detrick from l nowing •' when unci wh 1t they ere c loin' I suppo e they ay not have kept records lying around of -lj -1r Mux -1ell The question is not of •thether they kept '-- I • records lying around the uestion is whether given the nature of the materials and the instruments available a log would not be kept so that the Geney itself wculd have record of hilt r 1c1ter-iols they had on h ind ilnd how the 1n itcria Ls •ere V C controlled ind when they 1rrived ond wl1cn they were testcl · f · -·· re rct urncc 1 t o onJ when they were disbursed or when they' '· We _ _ _ __ • 1 fort Detrick - •• T ·• ·- -- - ·- You don't recall any such record _ · · •I • t -· •• 0 Dr Gottlieb I don't recall that If· it is lclpful • will co -J 1ent th ' t the discussio 'l th t just tool- plilcc bct ·c - - - - - - - - - - - - --- ------- --- ----_ - - - - - - - --- - - -- ---- - ------ ---- -------- - -- Approved f r R lease 2022 02 01 C00095171 pproveg for Release 2022 02 01 CO0095171 s -·- · r I 0 g ' i'I my counsel and yours proba ly pointed to 0 i 1 I @ ' i jt H I my hazy recollection of this namely the reason for o th 1t there were no su re cords because of the sens iv i ty of the i rea and the de to keep any possible use of materials like that recordless ·Ir t i ii Do you recall what kind of medical infc motion Wus transmitted fror i the field to hcadqu irters Dr cc r t Ma - --wel 1 J Go t tl i cb in l y v e z -y u s e f u l J rc we back on in p u t cl s to w h -1 in I don' t u r c o f th rn 1 t c r i 1 l - ffli rn - c he lf u 1 ·• - Due to the f ic t '--· - i cH th« t-·· h 1ci tJccn i z -ounu quite a 1- ·hilc ancl h id been given thr poly9r 1 h ' nd so cc r 1plctc r icdic il cxur l C There were very qood medicul ' · • und crs tantling tha i · 'this -d ic n' t anytt i ·fg i tt '·cJo with Jut --- -- ·----- cor ie unclcr f1nyi_ti_ n51 rthi ·t11 it· 1 situ iti on th lt is being hcl C 0 0 C 'Ir n x cll p ri o r to th i s t h i t If I c1m noL 1 iist 1 en your t he r c 1 s no t 1 d i f ' c r c n t - ipprov il r 1cch 11 is i for -2 v0 -st i'-1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 tcstir H n i 1 is that · s i o 1 i n t h e correct pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 - 52 ' ' ' l I i I am not able to differentiate to say yes or no except that 11 0 2 - I 1 'I I can only say that as the years went by l -2 was looked on as 11 0 I I an extremely benign substance a benezedrine thing as to which no one hud overhead untoward reactions to it was considered a very benigh substance 'I I G 1 i Mr Maxwell 7 Dr Gottlieb P-1 i And this was in contrast to -- Mr__ _HcLxw c-llr Perha-psyou would go on to the next folder b ----- -- ---- i 1 3 8 4 c -- I· 1 L0 Dr Gottlieb file 2 There isn't anything that I ' i __ C· J ates my r 1emory ' a read in this file th --1t simul- I have no J nowlcdge independent of what I read or have reading this of the activities whatever they l · l ' ·-- j • ure that are referred to by this material 1 r Ma we 11 Would you go to the next file then Dr Gottlieb I · The next folder is culled· The next file is 1 3 a 4 ' C file 2 My reading of this file doesn't bring up any r 1cmory in lepcndent of whiJt I 0 C called i- r - c1 - · cll huve read even after I h ive rcucl it l c rarently the proposal for the admi -iis- tration of an illnes -inducing agent was made to the acting Chief of the Counter Intelligence staff l·lould this be conso 1ant with the proposal and a r roval r v c ha n i s r i s t 11 1 t 1 o u h av e s c e n 1 n po s t recall bein uscc b 1 the J gcncy Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 f i 1 e s o - th a t ' o u n i g h t I SJ Dr Gottlieb I I am estimating because I don't know 0 whether you int me to go by my independent recollection which ii l C 0 I have said a couple of times I ·1 ' have read today and frof' l our discussion yes like this is something that the r edical stoff seems to have G brought up with them since they ere approached sec any role by TSO in that · oo Mr l-laxwell i L I_ • · n gccfu € '-epe-£--ut-i-Ona Lpu - --------- pos es other t tr nz ---this- tl Dr '··· you re cal ind_el q B y other f Ii r-- t· it would seem i I don't '- have none hut from what I ·' L I don't remember specif c instances Go t t1 i e b J J but I rer iembcr 1s far is JC were concerned in TSO not reg irding·· ''•--·- 4 0 that we did have whatever the medical staff's cap-1cility was that 1s or e of our requirements and ther ere some r iutcrial 1 ·-· C · l · we hi't l which could simulate illnesses nr l i wcl 1 l r l-lh 1t r i 3teriols 'ere lhey if you recall Dr Gottlieb I don't remember what they specifically I I remember that hoc the pccul ior property of producin 1 I 1 n TSD remember this w 1s is for is we - ere conc0rn0c 1 v 1lid rr ciuircment 1n l we dir sor 1c research hild some ct1r ibili y i ml we - I ' l rcmcmhcr the weal-producing agc 1t '' it fh• ''· Out I don't - - • · ' · r cr ib0r others Lenz - r 0 1 ls this rel 'ltcG to 1 - · -· ·• ---- -- -- - - £ - - e - - · pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009517 pp fj f -_ _- - · _ _ · - - _ - - 3· - - i - ·-I n - t f - - -· D · ··• ·-----·· --TOP g 0 e l h 0 ' i C 0 II I ·1 6 tion I Ii• Dr Gottlieb • 11 On this one Mr Maxwell Either in this one or any other illne inducing operation 9 II ij ii 8 '' 7 Lo involved in any discussions about the approva 1 of the apJ I Do you recall while you were at TSO Mr Maxwell 1 i I didn't read it us such Dr Gottlieb I I '' not 11 fee 1 s i tti n-cj here -tha t ·tr some because I have just the gcner l impression tr sort-of - -- - s •- 0 r Gott libb I were j c • I• J I' J • there Jere one or two other cnses 1 --·-but I don't remember - they were and I don't remcraber being involvc l i the apr 0 · mccht1nism j -- Mr Lcnzner They weren't illness-producing mcchan i L I l ·1 know what you call that ' Mr l• axwcll Dr Gottlieb · - · • - Apparently fro __ this memo -- I don't know what w s beinq use -· --· - · '- - - -- - - _ _ Dr Gottlieb They were dcfi c l illness If the · ' - of a red weal on your skin is not an abnormality I do ·-· were-they 1-- ci g _ l' -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - - - litl ·· · - · 0 0 0 ' G J I 0 · h Mr Lcnzner • But it indicates that the person has 'I I - asked for something of this nature 1 C Mr Maxwell •' 0 t I 5 ii Dr Gottlieb i' ' i 6 li was not limited to covert application of such agents but any application of an illness-inducing agent whether equested or not Dr c isc·s tha-E '2- That is correct And the question I asked Gottlieb r Clearly this area would include in the ___ can think of the cooperation of the agent in- volved and his knowledge of lt Lr· Nr Maxwell i' Dr Gottlieb '-· i · l C Will you go on to the next file This file is entitled J •C As l testified last when this na e as first Mentioned 1 t7 v L i- I got no con icc tion with it at all w -' ' mentioned here nu me but from - _ t ' •• Now I have just a vague rcmcmbrancc '-··and not from thc ' c of an orcration that was nt the tir ie My racrnory is very vague about it e _ C Mi - -ln well Do you have v ny recollection b e y o n d - C -- -- - ' clear i 6ollcction of th t ·- · - i _ i ti t · first ·mentionctl tht•'' 1 1· _ 56 to us 8efore ou - session as well as the other inforo ation Gottlieb said that he had no Dr that is on fellow the file - - -· axwcll recollection of this I understand that Given the opportunity to sec the aterial if any do you have any indevendent recollection vague recollection of an operation involving this Do you have any recollection o any cor versations that you bcca c a are of a to the choice of biolosical i jCnt Jr Got lie t· • I co r ct - •cl l of t hc - 1 c i il that you r i•1c seen of i hody kno _ n as the i ce lt lte - i io - Co - - r iittec Dr Gottlieb 1 do ot • r Lc ner Dr Gottlieb le h - ve been over that i cou le of tir e For wh itever it is worth I a r rcadin J the licolth ltcrc ition Co - 7 ttee as being a srou 1 nar c that · a l ' fact t is i hosed - ln have 0 1 c oc Comnittcc '- e have ecn t 1e succcssio 1 of things that reac - r - ax· c 11 do -'ou J'l v c any rcco l lcct io -i of that - • 0 - l co not I l C 1 G 57 I 0 0 I 11 Mr Max •ell i recollection of who migh l You said that you don't have a clear 0 - I I C f _ -_ •' • '- - ' 5klf · _ ·· · - ' · · -' ' ' Is your recollection sufficient for you to atte pt to c_ G Ii identify an individual 1 Dr Gottlieb - -- r - No -- ulL ner Do you want to describe what file you are 1 i I V 'I looking at now 1 I r i · I r r--- J ' 1 3A1 C ' • 0 I ct me repeat th it - • J • I ··- ' Ll• I h 1v0 read thL file recollection of it After I Defore I had it I have read it I have no have a vague re- mcmlir 1ncc of in incident somcthirHJ like this and somebody asked me about it There is a reference in here that someone r· mentioned it to c and I suid I didn't know anything about the ilit 1ry use Discus ion off the record i·l r M 1 -we l L Dr Gottlieb - This -------C 1 -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 Ii Ii Ii 0 0 58 0 e 1 j Mr Maxwell The cable to the Director f r o - n - II 0 I 11 q r 11 c • I I ·1 i and it goes on and points to this sensitivity as explaining i ii The lack of cooperation on the local level and again pointing 0 i lj I 6 eluded in the file and dated va-ftuaf-y t2- 962 indicates that 9 1 i J i I i'-· Ii Ii ACSI Ii Ii tclligcncc in regard to the CSI Ii Dr Gottlieb That would be my reading of it Ii '1 i Hould your reading or·· the cable be thut Mr Maxwell Ii 'i J • 0 '· J · J i 1 - ' t --- Ii the CIA learned through a source within the rnilitary thut th De Ecnsc Department was c pcr imcn ting with u tas te css oclor le - Ii •- l '-'•· lG 1 ' l be used in interrogation Ii r Dr Gottlieb I II Ii yes sir C J · 1 That would be my interpretation of it Hr axwell Is it your interpretation of cublcs 7 1-1 1' _ _ 1c tcd the Ii later Ii t ha the d5 9_ under JUest_ion _wa LSD Ii ·- · _ _ · ttt -i' ' · · r '·•-· ' - - · _ •f k j f fg_· J-j i t t ·· J t J fijt 1Ji ·J '· I cu 11 y c -- -- _ t _ _- ·· • -·' l - ____ e- a'-ccn 1on o-all cat J c z_ • •- · · i ·• • •·'i '- t -- • - · 1 Dr 7 Gottlieb · - whv don·• ou let ·me ·read· • · - · t f iij --·---#- fft- ·fI-- · - ·· -f ni - i •· i I - - lX •s ' t '' - J dv' ' s- 'f l ' t - • ' • · · · l '' - t ' ✓ r ' r C ' ' ·1· - ·1··a- d· ·••-l • 'i-t '· 1 ·· -s· f f•i' l 11 · H • · r y V 'I li Yes _ I ··wou raw _ nat · 9 1 ' us ion · · _· -_ - 0 __ _ • ' -- •• 1 Y lo - · - __ _ _ · · - -- - · - - - - - · r ' · ·-· - - nr- f w lL · I - f y _ i rt 's ir 10ny 0 _- that kno l edJi 'tC time of tr trhs t iOq i Eu rot ' ' - - ot licb - ----I did not - f ave · - - _- I you• iaci - o ' ·_·'Ii 0- A' l rny knowledge of it Ii • ' I Ii Ii i colorless chemical normally administered in alcoh l hich i oulc I C 0 Ii Would this refer to the assistant Chief of Staff for In- 1 Ii to the high sensitivity of the drug program it indicates that U 11 c Ii this program the DoD program in Europe was quite sensitive ----r --1 -H ----may------p-r-ecl-ude cooperat-ion at any-level short of - Ii l Ii - --J ·e -J 1 er _ _ __ c_ '---- - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 59 0 0 0 e i h '0 ' 0 C f I 1 '• I Hr Maxwel Subsequent to the discovery tha it was in fact LSD did you have occasion to discuss with DoD I' ii11 represent tives the testing program 'I J Dr Gottlieb really don't remember that I 1- ber reading this fil before and thinking now was there 6 II some coordinatio l later 7 j I Mr Maxwell I I b 0 Dr Gottlieb Ii Mr Maxwell t· 1 '' • - - And I just don't remember Do you recall any coordination between I do not Do you recall learning at any time of test- j ii 1 C J • V 0 1 a ing •I i ·' i I •J Discu5sio off the record Dr Gottlieb nack on the record ' Repeat your question Apparently I am not making C· I L•i · it as inclusive as I should I Mr M xwcll We will do it in series t Do you recall coordination with Edgewood Arsenal in regard to experiments with LSD C • Dr Gottlieb I wouldn't call it coordination · l s I V ri deposed in a prepared statement the origin of our LSD 1 i • - - - program came out of infor ation made available to us in con- · - - ··r· - - - --· 1· vcrsations with people at Edgewood Arsenal The subsequent activities which they engage in in respect to LSD -- I con't r_cmcmbcr whether or not t herc w 1s a close coordination or •1 - i ' DoD and CIA in regard to earlier tests of LSD 1 -C rcmem- 5 0 I i whether we had an awareness of them -- I mean I would assunc Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 II Ii I I I I '' 0 0 0 e 60 Ii ii we iid but I a speaking now about what my specific rccollec- l N l1 ij i I C 0 Ii tio s ure i 5 6 7 I I ·1 Ii Ii Mr Maxwell Do you recall going over a document in an J f Ii Ii Dr Gottlieb Yes I do remember that Ii Ii Edg-c-- 1 experiments utilizing human subjects on L5D conducted at II ·j wood Arscnil l -I Dr Gottlieb '- Ii I don't have a specific recollection of l There WilS al ays somebody in TSO thnt had a liaison th t ' Ii J fu ction in the chemical branch with 0 1 ' ·- Edgcwoocl in a dicion to i the liaison we had with Detrick Ii l -Ir Max' lell Ii Who would th it have been Ii ·-· Dr Gottlieb t- · 1 just don't remember one of the people to horn I h icl referred It -ould be Ii Ii In time it would i ·- •· 0 series of people it would Lashbroo Oortner T -eichler and Gorcon Ii nd it Houlcl have been one of those 'jIi th it I don't rcrncmGcr and possibly some other ' 0 Ii '- Mr Sla - wcll 1 3 8 4 l • ' - have been one - thoi Ii Dr Gottlieb lie r ou lcJ i 1dividuals ni Jy h c a role have t1ctunlly been ii of Ii a consul 11i full time employee for il w 1ilc 1i but - - - ·-·-·- - ·--- Ii I was involved with research on LSD using Air Force personnel f l ·1 -r · t- lil X W_ e l l D o y o u r _ e__ c _a l l - 1_e_a_r n i n g _ i n __ 1 9 5 5 o f D o D j •· j earlier deposition which indicated that the Army Chemical Corps I 2 i e Ii jl 0 N I Ii I 11 Ii I don't think so Dut anyway yes he definitely a have been one of the individuals Ii ------·- Ii Ii Ii 'Approved for Reie - ase 2022102101 C00095171 I Ii Ii Ii i ·Approved for Re_lease 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 1 e 61 ' l N i ' • M - Mt1xwcll Do you recall lcarni s of a prosram con- ' ' II ch c cd by the U S y Chcr iical Corps volunteer program 1 whi i u dcrtook experir cnts and supervi ed by the U S rrny intelligence center i ii 1 using human subjects ind LSD I ii ti This would have been at approximately 1958 to 1960 Dr Gottlieb 6 It is very hard for me to testify about my independent recollection of that because I read a great deal of newspaper material on that field since then had I - I think not seen that my answer would not specifically I don't have a specific remembrance of that 0 r- - C - 1 Mr Maxwell Do you rec 11 while you ere with TSO J J·'' ' cliscussing with any individual at CIA or any OoD representative I • a series of tests that were conducted utilizing LSD and involv- '' i11CJ a sir iulated social reception during which drugs could be lj administered surreptitiously to subjects c- - Dr Gottlieb · - · L· J l I If I cun rP hrase the Guestion so that can answer it as precisely as I know how in the following ay wa I aw 1re of any unwi t tin expcri1 1ents _ i th LSD by the C 0 e militilry y ans ver is I hilve no present recollection of _ C thcr i C ' 0 Dr Cottlicb i-tr -1 i - ·e 11 Could you I an Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 0 n Cha nee it is denomina te l Derby at This was undertaken II Ii fro ugust to November of 1962 Do you recall learning of 1 i that test £ Jr llat i Got tlicb Well I can say when you mention Derby dim bulb lights up with no aura around it the n 1mc And had you not gone any further I would have associated that with t 1e Vietnam 1-lar instead of FE Dut that is all I · l Ii -C· Ii before of any details about that Ii ' c '--' e Dr J i Gottlieb Ii No I do not Ii - r M i wc 11 Ii Do you have any recollection of u Ii _ Ii project called Third Chance Ii I r Got t liclJ That Ii name recalls nothing for me Mr Maxwell c 1· L l • r· Apparently this w i European tests which were conducted fror i Hay to August of 196 i Hould it be fair to summarize your testimony as saying you h ivc no recollection of lcarninry of unwitting testing o hi the boo reference to '' Ii Ii Ii Ii the p 1 t of DoO with LSD on hurnan - C subjects · Ii Ii ' J Dr C ottlicb C If you would enlarge that gucstion o i Ii ·' LSD activity in the Do if vou want to enl rgc it-thnt av i ·-- ·- - · -·· - - - - ' · - ·Ji r can i dd one thing _ cl that_ during thc Vietnam Ha-s i t i at _is_ - ·_c- i tl 0i£ tfi7r · · z t · I rer ierr hcr the niilitury co siclcri 1g the use ·of LSD - · - J 0 1 u ··· i - Ii fairly iarqc scale -- nd by fairly larqc scale I arn talki abou ih n interrogation sense interrogating a num cr o -- _J Ii Ii - - for R - · ··- - e ease· 2022102101 - - - ___ ·· coo 095171 I Ii Ii Ii Ii Ii Ii 62 0 0 _ 0 e l l II Cha nee it is denomina te l Derby Ila t This was undertaken ii frora Ausust to November of 1962 Do you recall learning of that est £ Or Gottlieb I can say when you mention Derby Hell lat a dim bulb lights up with no aura around it the name And had you not gone any further I would have associated that with t 1e Vietnam lfar instead of FE nut that is all --·-- i•- aside from the awareness that you had heard of that sometime -C· before of any details about that f' _ c Dr '-' Gottlieb tlo I do not J i - r 1-l 1 we 11 ' e 1 I project called Third Chance I • ' _ Do you have any recollection of a C lr GottlielJ That Hr Maxwell name recalls nothing for me Apparently this wa the DoD reference tot European tests which were conducted fro May to August of 1961 l ' c· ·lould it be fair to summarize your testimony as saying you have no recollection of learnin J of unwitting testing on I•· ' ' the part of OoO with LSD on huraan Dr Gottlieb subjects If you would enlarge that question o LSO activity in the Don if you want to enl rge it-that way --- · · ---- --cj- · - _ · - -- can add one thing _and hat is that_dur1ng 1 the Vietnam Has -· ·c ft t r tt - _ '_·- · _·· _t -- ·' I e rer icrr c r the military copsidcri 1g the use e f LSD fairly iarqc scale -- and by fairly large scale I - i ·J t · · 0 1 a arn talkin about i n int rro ation sense interrogating a number of Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -- 0 0 0 63 9 I 1 prisoners 2 forget and that we were asked to come on that l'tnd I 0 C nut I 0 what the occasion was and I forget who was there remember being there at least once with Mr FitzGerald · Ii •i il 6 1 • i ii when he was DDP And we recommended very much again that based on our experience And my remembrance is that it was killed nothing went forward Mr Maxwel 1 1hat were the reasons for recommendinCJ 1 E3 j I against interrogation i 9 - • J n · Dr Gottlieb Well by that time-- and I have trouble putting a dote on it -- I forget when M r FitzGerald died 0 r---- ' actually but thot would put a certain limit on when this happened -- but our experience with LSD as your now from the • •#' 0 C L 0 • · paucity of informiltion ofter 1960 or so w i th it in fact it wos an uncertain -- the results of the P-1 interrogation were c the ilitary getting into some standardized use of it 1 • which we felt wos on those grounds that they wouldn't be able to discriminate being uch a large organization and 0 r C - We had I·for6et what the statistics were as many failures as successes And we were very concerned about 0 c uncertain · 0 u handling possibly a large nur bcr of prisoner that • - c • · -r -q- ' i - -- 9- _ ___ -· --- ---- - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 8 64 I 0 J 0 r II Mr Maxwell You indicated in your testimony that you ' I felt the reactions were mixed in regard to the experience tha t 0 f -1 ·1I the Agency h d had i t -Ir Lenzner The results Mr Maxwell The results were mixed as many failures I j J ji 1 j 7 I 1 13 • and successes I think I · •- · - -- ---- Dr Gottlieb That is my reaction to it saying how we i 9 0 J is no indication of an operation being labeled as a failure a use of the material as a you huvc any recollection of inotanccs where LSD was u ied and considel ed to have failed i r--J L · · _ - · · Mr Maxwell In the material that you have gone over there L • e 0 failure And I was wondering i l Or Gottlieb 'J no s ccific recollection of P-1 operations that failed -· _ ·-- - 1 - - · • I had t ' ' 1 · l My reaction to that would have een I ha I would have brought the up when you said were there any others You as cd me a general question that I could remember Out I thin you have to take the cvulur1tion of like u c ible or a dispatch f r o m a t you h t c _s cn grain of salt -- not that the ' -- th i t they were o how much the national interest that they got fro n their interrogation -- -· hat they couldn't make but th it Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009517f - t j - t· 0 0 e And I J remember many discussions of thatkind that led 0 t us to believe that really what looked like a big success · locally didn't really seem that way that there wasn't so much 1 I 'I significance -- that doesn't mean that we didn't have some 5 successes when we total it all up 6 1 7 ii i Mr- Maxwell I I Dut the report -you are re f l _X- ting' ' to said tha •-·· · to _ ear ru n9 a-eiM B# t tJf ' technica1 S of ·-Lsp--·thrin-··the d ·thotigiit 'that7 ' l1 ' s had 0 r- gained J • l Or Gottlieb was trying to say • I think that is comp itible with what -C- -' ____ _ What I was trying to s iy is that the experience by the middle sixties or th end of the sixties which is a period I am trying to refer to in this Vietnam -· t '·· 1 •• - c 1se tol tl us that in terms of value to the J gency or L r - l - C v 1lue to the national interest in terr is of int_elligcncc re-•·· quired the value of 9r-l intcrrogatio·ns while not nil when you struck a balance didn't seem to warrant ·it ·· •· 0 G ci 0 f i i ··· i ·- believe that P-1 irite tfcftJ 7iom 1 - i ilti r - _ effort Dr Gottlieb It would - ··- Mr Maxwell Can you recall when you first bcg' n to i C e I l ha_d been -a -q rea ter -rew i- tt- t'rega·ra I N 4 -· I 65 0 Out let's - · Mr Maxwell l don't like to try _- io· ·· · but the midJlc sixtifo panin Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 l -I 0 0 0 66 ' e ' Dr Go tlieb r Mr Mv xwell 1964 1965 N 0 N 4 C 0 ·j 1 I that I I 'I '• I' Do you recall any events that triggered Dr Gottlieb No specific events ju•st a sort of a back ' ward look and summation of the whole program Again I don't 5 1 I G want ogive the impression that anybody felt that the pro- gram was a failure that there was no use to P-1 interroga'titns·j B j I I thv t there might not be some special ci-rcums t ances in which I • But the results of everything told us this would be useful -c • that the money expended the effort ex ended the security I '-- l - l -- i· risk involved when you add everything up it probably was J _ r • J •• not -- I am searching for the right expression here-- 0 it w is probt1bly not a hish pay-off program l Hr M 1xw ll - Docs this include -- w is this limited to i •_ · P-1 interroght ions or did it include operationill C' l USC of LSD to disorient a speaker or to possibly use it as a dist1blin9 a • agent p Dr Gottlieb I think so I think it would have in- 0 And I think that had a lot to do with 0 eluded the whole thing 0 l l ter events at lea it as fc' r us I was concerned 0 v ·- - -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 'I 0 0 I 67 0 speaking of r 0 ' Dr Gottlieb C 0 I am talking about the whole series of projects that started in 1952 and continued through the t n I middle sixties q ' I• I G 1 r Maxwell from those things funded through HKULTM or I ii ' Dr Gottlieb The remarks I made happen to include both 11 15 I 1 C i1· 9 CJ 1r '· Mr Maxwe 11 nd your testimony is there is no specific occurrence which led you to do that but simply an j Ii l __ ' i t ' e attempt to evaluate 1 J l Dr Gottlieb n attempt to look liuc und evalu ite • 0 the r 1oncy spcn t 1 the r ople involved the cf fort and the _ ' l ' operationnl trials you know the cost effectiveness l · C 1 It I t wasn't that preci e and it wasn't labeled that I 1ut it was Lh 1t r sort of a review Mr Mc1xwell One last uestion in rc c1rd to the DoD testing nd that is newspaper reports have described the 0 de ith of a cntlernan named Mr Olauer at the l ew • Yor Psychi- atric Institute apparently resulting from the ingestion of C mescaline as part of a program of research on psychochernic Jl • • • re you differentL iting the M KNJ OHI· 'se'r-ics conducted under the auspices of the Department of Defense Did you become JWare at any time prior to the news aptir articles il Jout the fact of 1- r Ulauer' s death or the circu - 1st rnc s of Mr lllaucr's death Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -- • · · •' '--- - 68 0 0 0 e Dr o Gottlieb I I have no remembrance of having any 0 Ii prior knowledge of that '· Mr Maxwell Let us go on to the n0 xt file Dr Gottlieb I I haven't finished looking at everything in this one yet 6 Off the record d' Discussion off the record • 7 · M Dr Gottlieb 0 Reading this file which is entitled cbefore_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 71 - rc itl this file I J c l r th rc Wi S think h id you asked me-do I 1n intcr -og ition• t h_er th 1n the twu J ' _____ J ' 'e have t ilkcd 1bout I '°·oulcl h ive s iid 0vj rer icmlJer t liere _Du t ccr tai ly _i ·oul_c il _t t Ii 1 I - ' C __ ___ ab u't h 1ve h id u ·lot of specifi forma j_on J ' - ' remcmbc-r - wlv fh' _r t · rr g i ted ex ict_ Y '°·ho wos there ·- - --- who was·· inter- - and who the SD off iccr pres er t l '°'as I • llut rec1ding t is J ·· I ' 1 3 a 4l f ictivitics took place that I wasn't there that this one WilS I now remember that such i series o thi'lt 1 1 the TSD person tlll t· I wasn't involved in this one and 1c t1in considcrct 1 in the conte t of our las convcrs ition is i something sugc3csted I sort of want to keep this one out to refer to our i l 111 I tal' -s aoout it - - - --- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 g 69 0 - ' There is an interesting emorandum in this file ' ' 0 dated 1 April 1963 to the Chief of FE Division from the Chief 0 of the International Communism group on the CI staff 0 And the memo seems to comr icnt on the value that was gotten from an agency point of view from this interrogation It doesn't ii i i mention the fact that it was a special interrogation Dut I bring it up here to give the difference between a staff 7 p's -sobc r- evaluation of the value of the in errogc1 ions 1 3 a 4 rx - C J I' _ ' 1 and the i evaluc1tion which was far more modest And it wc1s this kind of a thing even on a broader scale that m ide us sc 1le down some of the enthusi 1sm later when 1 e J 1- e r e re v i c i n g a l 1 o f th i s a s con t r a s t e d Lu the first-hand a 1 think it is worth mentioning you referred to the '' - possible rl lative value of the discrecliti iq disabling 1spect of P-1 as contrasted to the interrogative value 1 nc the L J ' point 1vc1s icle a couple of times that indiviciuals under P-1 c1cted in a mc1nner that could lJc used to discredit ther 1 i i 0 0 1 C '• 0 the eyes of individuals 1 3 a 4 5 tho t 1 think one of the previous u s pZ1rt of two points to be it that jo Jyiny my memory h t cl One is thc1t that wuy to use P-1 is r - C relatively easy and surefire I meun you ire almost suce to Jet sor ic peculiar beha· ioc on the purt of c1n individual to the extent that that was useful in Agency operations Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 it L - ' 0 70 1 2 u s an effective use of P-1 Ii But our experience was based on the meager number of 11 I 1 1 requests for that kind of thing that it didn't seem to be an 1 operationally useful Agency goal I 6 iii ' i nd this is an example for instance of what looked like If you read the local record you remember they ausccess I I ' ii were quite enthusiastic about what happened i nd in fact that l kind of a use of P-1 was never picked up in any broad sense p J ' ··· 1 3 a 4 • ' - · Maxwell i s far as you know Mr the mention in this I' Ii 1 ' particular file in regard in 1962 those the and in regard to the - J ' l • '··· only two uses of LSD to discredit individualn 0 j Dr Gottlieb I have thought about that There 1 · r-· ___ certainly was talk of others others j there certainly was talk of specifically of fairly senior officials overseas that they wanted to discredit And I don't re ncmher srecific llly · 1 '' whether or not any of them were used I do re ember the constant negative factor was the uncontrollability i ftcr 111 you tnke u senior offici 11 someof this to 'iscrcdit him or what he r iight s iy miyht sny something th it is wron J fror the point of view of m - remember it was all the ne Jative side Dut not to c 1void the S ecific question you asked - -- ---- - ---- -- - lie from the point of view of the specifics of the re- interest action I - ir you hnve no woy of r nowin J wh H the specific disorientntion is · incl you C ivc ------ - -- -- - - _______ _ - - - - - TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 -cooo 95171 I hav • 11 1 • 1 1 • •• • • I I I I I I• · - - · ' · · j 0 0 0 - ' 71 ' - 1 C 0 7 8 - Ii I' i Ii were discussed as possible targets of a P-1 discrediting II operation Mr Maxwell Do you recall the specific individuals who Let me talk to my counse 10 Confers with counsel 11 Mr Lcnzner J 0 C 1 ·--• ' H l I I '·· 1 t is a q-ues- ··1 The problem is that he has some recollection I 'i IiIi of an individual but he is not absolutely sure that it relates ii 'I to this specific area are going to put something on the record thatmay not be fair to i I · I And I am a little bit worried that we · II c l jl l l · I · I the reoplc involved or that may be embarrassing to -Dr Gottlieb i nd further that it may link my name asain I 'I ·- l ' I tion about how far we feel I ought to speculate on it J ' r- ·1 Dr Gottlieb I I don't remember a big flap ever 9 I And I think it was probably used several times But I don't remember the specifics of the times it was used I 6 P-1 · 5 • a rememb ance of several discussions of this kind of use of 2 l '· ' ·1 0 € ' ' I i 1 to something that may come out when I am not sure it really I happened · ' ' Mr Maxwell Discussion off the record i ' Mr Lenzncr On the record 2 Let me say two things 'i ' _' irst I want to correct what I think is a mispercep- ' Off the record · ·I · I I My rending of the cables suggests that there was cuµ or1 '· · tion r • ' in one of these files over the disorientation of an interrc ' I I 1 - -- -- · -- ·ti ' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 c 00095171 · ·1 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 ' - II 1 ' d I' I 0 N as a byproduct of interrogation but it didn't indicate ' II 2 u 4 I I i C 0 t i 'I necessarily that P-1 was administered for the specific purpose of disorientation And I think both the witness and this interrogator have mnde that assumption And I don't think 'I 1 fj I 11 that is accurate I 6 I Mr Maxwell • Spenking for myself I have made the have that the discrediting of the individual was the prime motive · r • nut I also have not made the assumption that there '· weren't operations using LSD where that was in fact the c I' - motive Mr Lenzner The cable certainly does11't reflect the latter _ 1 '-··' Dr Gottlieb I J • ' that I lC · it being used - I ' ' My statement remember discussions just to be careful was I have no specific remembrance Mr Maxwell I think the record is clear on that Lenzner The witness at this point can recall ir of C 0 ' discussions relating to the possibility of use against a a 4k f f '-- 2 • - - - - ----- --- terms of the actual attempt to disorient 1 3 a 4J C __ _ ___ And he is quite certain that none of those discussions as far as he knows ever bore fruit of this material - Mr Maxwell possibi 1 i ty Was there more than one discussion of this to the best of your recollection ------ r ---Go-tt lich --- - -To the best of r y rcco 11 ec t ion - · - · - ______ ·· -·--- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 I ' 0 73 i I l 2 II I sequcntly q 11 _- 0 Mr Len ner With regard to this one figure or sug- I Mr Mc1xwell 5 With regard to this one figure 1 t I Dr Gottlieb I To the best of my recollection there is I 5 only one discussion th3t I recollect 6 Ir Muxwell Who are the other participants in the dis q cussion · 11 0 9 II 10 I' I ' i' • l l L e I just remc ucr the level of the rcrson Ii off the record Ii Discussion off the record 0 · l _ _ _ ·1 3A-cf '· I don't rememuer the country involved 1 1 ' Ir J J nd furthermore Dr Gottlieb I really don't remember Ir 1·li xwell Oack on the record •' ' I J -· C hcF'wils d1 scussc l in this con- the particul 1r text ' Mr Lcnzner Dr Gottlieb No C '-' Mr 0 i'lil we 11 To the best of your rccol lcction · id · 'J c you discuss subsequent--t hi s_ conversat i m' whether nf t in ' -·· came of it or did you 1 ca rn _t 3l 1Y l i- X- -i - M i 11 ' I sf -'1 'J 6 - - ·' ' l n conjunction with such -an opc1 1 tio a _ _ i_ga i nst Ur Gottlieb •• ·1 lo Th i t would be another· disci Jss ion rcl 1ting to tile situation ET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -- _-- g 74 0 'f - 1 ' was only one discussion about the possible use of L Dagainst ' 0 ' a particular individual i C Dr Gottlieb '• 5 6 Mr Maxwell Ii' Yes that I can remember That you can recall 1 I Were there other discussions about the possible use jll Ii of LSD to disorient individuals or discredit them without 7 ii - - - - - - - _ 11_f_o_c_u_s__s_i_n_g _o_n_a_ _r_a_r_t_1 _·_c_u_l_a_r__ i_n_d_i_v_1 _·d_u_a_l _____________________ _ 8 4 iI Dr Gottlieb Yes there were I CJ t 10 £ C - Mr Maxwell And were there many such discussions lJ Dr Gottlieb That is not a precise term to me What docs many mean to you J Mr Maxwell Were there more than five i • C 1 Dr Gottlieb L Were there more than ten Probably Were there less than 50 Yes I don't know c 1 ' L l •· I· J · · Mr Maxwel 1 nut this was I take it from your question and answer not an extraorc linary conversation Dr Gottlieb Well if you don't consider ten or so conver- sations over a 23-year period -- that is what it was g r ' ·'' a sort uf level C ·1r Lenzner i s I recall the memorandum on the case to the Agency other people in the Agency had explored the - - possibility disorient Castro • for example of putting LSD in an aerosol can to So I take it that this was not a sub- ject th 1t h i d been discussed sor • c· herc else lr -- M-1 - we 11 I am making no representations about con- -- -------- - - - - - - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 75 0 e 1 I 'I 0 2 11 C I I 0 f versatio s er discussions in which valved Gottlieb was not in- I a focussing solely on Dr Gottlicb's recollection of such conversation in order to determine whether in fact the 1 Ii conversation that you hnvc sorne recollection of was unusu Jl a 5 i 6 II the reasons why you might recall it now Mr Lcnzncr testimony L J V • r I CJ II I' I I say only in the context of the prior I wouldn't think a discussion of this nature would · be terribly unusual Dr Gottlieb ··- ·- -- - -- nd I am thinking now if I testify-- T'- 10 I off the record 1'- 1 11 Discussion off the record J C • 1 e i Mr Eaxwcll 0 Jck on the record ·I C 0 ' L l - I l r Or Gottlieb my mc11tionin' 21 I want to be sure th t you unctersu1nr t number l ir c ten such discu sic 1s is the c ' L sofist kind of recollection bec Jusc this subject could he ii L i brought up ' seem to have a morbid fascination about it and I am sure it j • J i any briefing or anything li c that The pea · coultl have come up more tir 1es than that as J general su Jjcct discussion Discussio off t record - r 1-laxwell On the record - One J _a_ - on r Gottlieb n yo u rc ol lcctio - - e d L __·-l· 0 Do -ou- havc ilny rec_q_llcct ion oft thc dat¢ r t i th9 com·c ··------ - - ---- -- - ---- -- - - -- - C Approved for Release 2022102101 C00095171 S f · - - ' ' -c' 1 f't ' tg s 76 1 i o n 0 i Go' ' ieb Dr I I I have none whatsoever I C 0 € I Mr Max· ·ell II 1 I the fifties I ii s Can you place it in the sixties versus 1 II I• Dr Gottlieb I I' I am afraid if I answer that it will just G Ii put me in the same position that I was when I first brought it ' 'I up And I thin my answer to that is no Dy that I mean if s · you said would it be rather the fifties or the sixties I waul 'I 9 10 - 3· 3 ' Dut with the added statement that I am not Mr 1• 1x· ·ell Dr Gottlieb in req irc J to t-t1e'i'd 9 6-2' • - • t o-in tc - -oga t ion dated lay 15 1'1 uses the tcr n tcchnic il interrogation• Is that the term thut would have been used in regard to 1 • • • vf 1 'J 1 the use 1n 1nte -roqat1on o f A- 2 r·- ' I sure I ' say the sixties I 1 I J L I I L 1 · I'·- l ' 1 C 0 0 J _ nut I think it could Dr Gottlieb It could have been Artichoke interrogation have also been used to refer to un • ' y dcrstantli -•• J -· - P- 1 «iliilf' •• tcchnica 1 ·aids le t e us ' - - •• 'c c r- i ' Mr Milxwcll •'rherc- is a ca t $ R ¼ Z S t_ r a• I t · rs- U 1t -- m' - i r Cou 1d you ·u rt d ica te - '·hat· IKDELTA tiii¥fiito - - __ • Ur Gottlic J • ·t ----- ------- - _____ ------------- - - ---- -_---- - ----- __----c I ·-· ----------- • 6 that you have there -- 11'· ___ • 7o do this accurately I would have to refer to thnt cnorundum the CSI - ------ • - ---- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 Ar ci pproved for Release 2022 02 01 cooogs 1 g 77 0 'f - Ii l I' j N 0 u i 2 0 Mr Maxwell i r u C the date of this was 19G2 or 1963 was it · Dr Gottlieb i t The date of that was 1962 I believe I think the most accurate way of respond- i I ing to that is just to read this · And HKDELT1' materials arc certain chemical and biolo- i1 gical materials capable of producing human behaviorial or physio- I 'I I logical changes · r Maxwell _ Why would this be used as a cable indicator I'•· Dr Gottlieb Well I mentioned several times that i' '- it wasn't uncoTT 17 on at all for people to put the wrong things J • I ii l 1 in it an to r 1isstate a dcsi Jnator thc t wasn't meant s - 0 1 -· cable incJicc1tor 1 instead of a cable im icator • us made but covered some aspect of the operation That was a constant error that not only with these indicators you arc talkin _J al iou ' And when you say why was it used 1 · · body made a mistake Mr I so e- think Maxwell There is a cable to the Director C 0 l J S a 4 ' iould li DELTi r aterials be available outside of heuu- - quarters for instance Dr Gottlieb W ll I can't racollcct but I 1 a 4 ------C 'Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009517 1 think a 0 0 0 - 78 ' An l in that context I would N 0 think it quite possible that a supply of at least P-1 and l -2 C 0 would be kept there and possibly other materials ' Mr Maxwell 1 3 a 4 ' ' ' f 'I i' C I ·I 6 ' The description of the interrogation is included in the 25 June 1962 cable to the D i r e c t o r And I was wondering if you could comment as to whether this 7 i 1I les _ri pJ ino w a 1 1 l c L r £ ---------r 11 8 9 - --- - 1 I 1 and P-1 interrogations third day senior person intensely feared by subject talked t1 o hours with sujject P-1 ingested 30 minutes following inter- view and JO minutes prior evening meal On i J It read as follows Duildup included two sleepless night due l -2 I I' ' l '1 i1 I tl1e pt ocedt1re used 1n l - - J -- spite obvious nervous ess te heartily in Immec lic1tel· followin J r 1cal h icl violent clry heaves und first claimed fooci poisoning '' nd then in panic began to claim senior interrogator had poisoned L · - 1 · 1 1 3 a 4 c _ him This followed by clearcut paranoid panic reaction similar to subject 2 episode observed by The cable then goes on C C After rcpec1 ted requests for rncclic C 1f a 4f ' c_ - doctor culled to listen p itiently to su j c complaints Dr Gottlieb 1- y c inswer to that • oull be no not be a typical or routine thing - that 1-1ould Eac case was judged on its own merits und thut is the purticular se 7uencc of events in this one But I wouldn't say that is the standurd sequence of events ------- - TOP rc R T - - ' · -· - - ·• - 8 79 0 - ' 1 Mr Maxwell '0 ' 2 i II 11 C 0 I € ' 1 interrogations to attempt to build in this way some form of strees through lack of sleep or physical stress I t c rlould it be normal in the l -2 or P-1 Dr Gottlieb That was characteristic of some of them i nut others 6 completely supportive approach 7 in my testimony that LSD seems to behave in_a_ manner tha t- in--- - 13 somc way produces a caricature of a person's personality traits 9 and trends And how you exploit it in this sense would be a lG I think they found that they got more from a I tried to say before earlier function of that C • r--- c l Mr Maxwell Do you recall any other interrogations J ' 1 which were denominated MKDELTA interrogations aside from this C - file hich refers to thcr i Dr Cottlieh You arc referring to the callle indicator • jl d L_· l now o some other material used here Mr Maxwell Well there are references throughout_this file to this lleing MKDELTA i ·- -0 0 Dr Gottlieb Could you restate the question ' 1·lr t- aX · C 11 Aside from this interrogation and the o hcr intcrrog Jtions 1-1hich you h i ve seen papers on during the deposition do you recall any other interrogations that were deno - iina tcd HKDELT1 interrogations - -· '-• Dr Go t t 1 i c b not to my remembrance My ans ·er to your ciucstio 1 is no lut I assume that question includes or infers werc there any other interrogations that I can Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 ' e 1 ' remember using drugs 0 N 2 C 0 € l I jl Dr Gottlieb I 7 Mr Maxwell In line with the earlier discussion that a dispatch C 10 f' ' -· · •' Ii i I 1 q ' - l - 1 - regard to this series of interrogutions It indicutcs i in paragraph 11 of the dispatch 11 11 1 J i The other completed M1'DELTi operation can be considered a succes in that it induced a parunoi l reaction in the presence of an unwitting psychiatrist who described this ·' I and then there is phenomen i in writing for subject one i C · l' l il11•1 blank which we cun assume hus to do with some re iort that l went out about subject one I-- I l' ' On the basis of this evidence have S-1 committed to an institution at will thereby den • _ J f-3Ca 1 r t j i MKDELTi operation id not_cause he paranoid reaction I ' 51 2· ' % · ' 1 3 a 1 Please note that the to t h e _forever a loyal follower i• c e No I do not we had I would like to read into the record an excerpt from e MKULTRA or MKDELTJ materials not restricted to LSD or I Mere tr an Ii 6 a referred to as I Any materials that were I 1 l ' Mr Maxwell I r y f LIt · 5· _ _ ii · ' fi - t i i Ty ·0 ssurface P toms c e the - ' • the b rsoi urngihl ta ·rt ht __e· -v t h · · · · -_· _•- i_ - _ '_ · l· · - · · -- __• _ _ _ -- - · ·_ _ _• · _ · · · • __ · _·_ ·' ···• ·· _ ' _ · _· · _ · · _ · · ··· - ···· · · ___ · ··_·___ · _' · - ·· · · ·• ·-· ··· · _ ·''-' ' -· ·_ · · 1 This would be r'ea f o_ 'l J e it _· we deducccl before with 0 0 · - ' seeing a E10ssiblc opcr 1L ·• 11 ' f' ' - ' · ' _ jt fr_ '' c ' benefit which you •might ·tcnc i' totdi·s unt in judginc_ the ·us • ' · P 'r r r_ e 'a L-- -- -' ' ' · · yer I t i • · Jf n •'c• r r -- ' - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ' - 81 1 I' I of drugs over the long term or the desirability of continuing research in drugs over a long period of time is that correct I 1 3 a 4 ' C Dr Gottlieb 1 1 If you arc saying that that a great advantage I judged think as it was evaluated in head- quarters it would be downgraded S Mr Maxwell When you looked back at the end of the 1960's over the period of time in which there had been drug experimentation did you call together the files that con9 co 10 r tained information on the use of drugs over time in order to I out 1 1 J L·· I 0 review them to make the determination that it would be phased _ i Dr Gottlieb I think that I had already done that in tha i J · '· ' report in 1963 that you referred to or 'GO or 'Gl You re- __ ··member you referred to a report I wrote on evaluation or c J j something of psychochemicals and there had been so little j 1 L' 1r activities in the interim I don't think I would have done l · that - -Ir Maxwell In line with that 0 C ' let me read a portion o - the CIA Inspector General's report that describes that u report and how the Inspector General interpreted it The author opens discussion with the question of what the 2 - - operational returns had been from an eight-year program involving a large investment - services CS had encouraged TSD on various occasions to r l e observed that the c L indes tin develop and maintain the operational capability in special Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 82 ' ' e and chemicals Dut that TSO had received little 0 l or o guidance in directing the work and that the clandestine • ¢ · ' 0 t i ·i i I mc -ty I Ile indica tcd hat there had been operations over the eight years employing harassment I lj 6 '11 7 ·the end product operationally 1 5 ' sc r· · ices had ur to that time shown little inclination to use i materials not controlled under tht 1'-tKDELTl rr gulations only 'few' operations employing disabling drugs and in D · two- I · -' use of I 1 - - l i · local substances was reported f the record O Discussion off the record J • • D ci ck on t h c re co rd • Mr l-1 il X e 11 Dr Cottlieb can you recall any Oj Cr 1tion using 0 __ t ·· 1 1 r j ' disabliny drugs us you described them in your report unc er t · · M ' Df T series Dr Gottlieb I cannot Mr Muxwell Can you describe again using your report ir ' ym r rcollections of your report as the focus any other tir llFI T c interro' ation thu 1 the ones th 1t we have gone over Or Gottlieb No I-le have gone over three of them hasn't it been Mr Maxwell - the difficulty in determining whether t ···· three ere done under the MKOEL'i'i series is that in only 0 1 them is the tcna used Dr Gottlieb 1 would be inclined not to worry l 1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 co 0095171 0 0 0 83 ' ' 1 fl that because of the confusion of t e e terms I' assume I would 0 2 Iii1 0 t 3Ac' ii ii j s 1 J G C that the ter SDELTJ interrogatio0 r ieant j P-l l -2 interrogation ·1 jfl J hearing this Mr of them Maxwell The other difficulty in that at least one - - ' ' 1 report i E l Well it is hard to tell whether they talked about the • 1· 9 c-_· 10 the circur istunces of your prc rnration of th i t rcpor-t usin J _ • L 1 C i as i 1 _ Dr 'I '·· way of recallin J other- operations or intcrrog i tions - i Gottlieb No 1-lr Ma well Do you hove i ny idea usinCJ the prepar 1tic1r1 of that re1Jort cff ho the disabling druCJS might h JVC - _us_e ti' 1 I in operations other ·th 1n··thc pos ibility of using jl 1 · Or- · i J J c · i_ - '·• Jiscfodi't - -1''j i'°'qriclividu ll l Dr Gottlieb r ot in any specific sense I tried to i c- C 0 0 J' • c i 11 that when I w i s testifying in front of 'tile Senators c1nc ti'lcntionec scver i l J inds of tllincJS _ e had th 1t we would have consitlered h 1rassing agents But I coul ln' t tic thcr 1 in the - 2 - and I can't tic them in -lr i i wc 11 now to specific opcr 1tions l· ould it h 1ve been iJOSsilJle for you· to Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ' 0 0 0 ' - - · • j 1 ' ·' 0 Dr Gottlieb I guess to yes ' i Mr l-Iaxwcll ii Mr Lcnzner That predated this report I' 0 ii · C 0 f ii i Mr l· ilxwcll i 5 x' ' Do you recall Do you recall re eiving any information in the contact of preparing the report of G I do not your report J _ C e Dr Gottlieb · - Mr 1 Lcnzncr I might have tiow that we arc rcferrin J specifically to Dr Gottli •s prior testimony involving I - l Dr Gottlieb I would like to expand that answer i' I might have but I don't have a specific recollection of it Mr l-lo xwell In going over the materials that you have C 0 0 · ' C bcc i sho n throughout the period of time that you have testifi -d before the scpar 1tc Select Cor unittce ca11 you think of any -- · - • trft f - other opcriltions 1ich predated that report ·which might h ive- - · s · ' fit the category as you describe it of oper i f•t•hti ifi t ublirnJ drugs in the rer ort you pre arcd as the scientific 1dvi•- sor to the DD ' ' Dr Gottlieb Hy answer to that is -·---· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - ·-- -·--- _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - A p p r o v e d for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ·- - - -- r 4 J --- 0 0 85 0 e ' 0 1 2 s C 0 t 5 6 now I I use of a diarrhea-inducing material I think it was i I' phenolphthalein a being a diarrhea-inducing material I I' 11 7 E3 My counsel reminds me of some prior testimony about the II ii 11 I remember it being used but I And couldn't recall then and I can't recall now it being a specific operation That might have been one of those included Mr Maxwell Would this be considered in your definition 1' -- --------- L__ t-cr-d tsatning drug II - 10 CC 11 Ii I lJ I I i • 2 s a 4f Dr Gottlieb Mr Maxwell Oh yes One last question in regurd to the 1962 J · ___ -· C C I· i -- i' I The description indicates that the LSD did not caus the reaction but merely brought out ' syr irtoms that l - l Ii 1ve re present prior to the interrogation nased on the work that you knew about on LSD and the experiments tha I ·1 lG you were involveJ in woulJ that be an accurate description of ' L • what miyht occur should LSD be given to an individual who has I · 1 · latent symptoms uch as is claimed about the subject of the L• interrogation Dr Gottlieb Mr la xwe 11 I think so If you had known about such symptoms or - were in a situation whereyou knew about such symptoms would you have proceeded with such an interrogation 0 t · r Cot tl i e b I find it a difficult question to answer because in the first place it is hypothetical and there were SECRET - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 86 ' - ' 1 II so many factors involved as to what you would do in a specific case 11 who were related to the case about the possibility of this C Ii 0 s I i i 11•I happening Surely we would have alerted the operators He would have been concerned about it I think 5 1 this was at least one case where you remember we recommended 6 II against using any special technique because somebody was meant- 7 ·I ally disturbed I' I ' r· ·lr because I I jGst can't think of a standard reaction Lanzner l c-rrrnr take i t -- and I We f i II d tho SC Cj Uest-io1Tjjr -5 - - drHi--1f fr--r'f'- -t tcc- -_____ __ _ am not an expert in this -- that there arc so many variables in that kind of medical judgment that it would be hard to standardize a determination _ L - lr a - wcll Let's go on to This file is Dr Gottlieb - ··- Reading this file docs recall for me the use of what t ' I am almost sure was a two in one or two cases with this asset ' 1 · of the cl indcstine services in an attempt to elicit more infor- mation 0 than the person dealing with the Agent was able to elicit Mr these laxwell Did you participate in the authorization of or the analysis that suggested these I really can't rcmenber Dr Gottlieb ' - 1 araJ 4f have a r crricrnbrance specific 1lly _ i I sort of being involved in this Anc1 it • as not a case as I remember of his Join down to wh t vc1· this was and observing it but r itlicr 0 0 0 ' ' 8 1 counseling the case officer involved 0 N 4 2 u Mr Maxwell Do you recall whether anyone at TSD pnrtici- u C •J pated in the actual interrogation Dr Gottlieb I don't recall that Mr Maxwell Doyou recall possible discussions in TSD about tt and the fact that it did occur Dr Gottlieb I think so What I am alsmot sure of is that it didn't involve P-1 L 9 C' '· - Mr Maxwell I 10 I I r _ r 11 I results of the interrogation or reports coming back to TSO i ll i l1 J about the results of the interrogation Dr a • l ·· 1 Do you have any recqllection of the i been Gottlieb I have a general recollection of it hilving deemed successful -- of having been deemed helpful in at least one case · '-· ' I r Mr M ixwcll nd it involved to the best of your recol- L lcction more than one interrogation of the individual r- - -- _ ·ii i _ - · -_ · · --_ - · - · -t ·· • · · _- · • - · i --·- - -· - - 't J • - --- - Dr Gottlieb rcally·don'tircmcinb i - The file ft % - r tt - 7- j l l c _ - -ta nc _was · -r 7 s ' ' ' about Ti c' y_rccollection Whether •l t w is one pp d for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 used and th 1 t is pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095 0 0 0 88 - ' 1 Mr Maxwell On set times the kind of reaction 2 Dr Gottlieb 0 ' i We would try to get those kinds of re- C 0 sults yes ii 5 G i i Mr Maxwell Even if there weren't files kept about operational use there would be reports that would come through ' TSO l1 7 i fl Dr Gottlieb I don't know in what form they would be They might be oral ones where you would debrief the person 'I 9 C ' '- involved 10 I'II CD I Ii l C Mr Maxwell Would that attempt be centered in the chemistry branch J j I i There was some attempt made to get that obviously ii 1 G' ii l _ 'i Dr Gottlieb Ho i t would probubly be centered in this 1 '1 behaviorul activities branch 1 I _j _ 1 r Mr Maxwell From the time of the l ir inches on set w is it the branch principally responsible for this kind of icti- c l · ' vity Dr Gottlieb Mr Mc1xwcll I think so Do you have uny recollection as to C 0 0 1 · who c1uthorized the use of a two against this i ssct C Dr Gottlieb I don't remember specifically but it would have had to have been the DDP - - Mr Maxwell You say it would have been to have been the DDP Ur Gottlieb - 2 procedure used Yes Because that is my rcmrrnbrance of the it wouldn't have been issued or approved or Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 89 'f - 1 anything like that 0 ' 2 1 I Mr Maxwell C 0 € Focussing your attention on this individual 1 11 1I• perhaps you could take me through what would have had to have lj happened for the material to have been released to the I' individual performing the interrogation 1j 6 ll Dr Gottlieb If you will let me do this in a manner Ii I 7 9 c c r · in this instance what I would envision happening was that the 11 cognizant operational unit involved be that a branch chief II or a division chief or even an individual who was seized witt1 1 i this problem would have come to TSO to di cuss this an l dr - 1 f I• that accommodates the fact that I don't specifically remember 1 J J _ I · -- tcrmined thot there was some feasibility to the proposal 0 0 And then the area operational people involved would have l 1 either in writin0 or orally gone to the nor and explained th r 1 ii '- s•ituation yotten his approvol and then in sor 1c manner in- C '· dicated to us in a manner that satisfied us that it was '-'· aprroved that they had gotten it approved and then we could go ihead of it C 0 0 f·ir M 1x1 cll Do yo1J have any recollection at th 1t timr f 'J C there being an annloguc of either the health iltcrati on ' cor unittcc or the drug committee or t le Id lloc Comr 1i ttcc as ' result - • Dr Gottlieb I don't think therewas a 1y such 8 4 c · Mr Lc nz 1er 1 You l lCi n in ' 97• when this on Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -'ov 15 yo1 • - 0 0 0 - 90 ' 1 ' Dr Gottlieb Yes II 0 ' t 2 0 C ii Mr Maxwell What would be the appropriate method of I ii Ii indicating to you that the DDP had in fact approved the program 'I I H '1 11 5 I 1 1 I II ti Either a piece of paper with his signatur Dr Gottlieb ' I or a personal phone call from somebody or a visit to him 1 I Do you recall any of that in connection Mr Maxwell ii 8 9 11 • Not specifically l1 10 Iii I' I f · '-· Dr Gottlieb 11 Mr Maxwell Do you recall that in connection with any li I 'I of the other interrogations that we have discussed 0- l_ ' i Dr Gottlieb Oh yes I saw i t in the cable traffic a couple of times J 0 Q 1 Mr Maxwell Off the record • Discussion off the record 3 I 1 Mr Maxwell On the record I # ' 1 l ' _ 1_ l I Ask the question Dr Gottlieb ' I Hr Maxwell Do you recall any of that happening in any 1 · ofthe interrogations or operations that we have discussed I I Mr Gottlieb I remember having read approved by the Chief of Operations J nd I woulrl have assumed that he I WilS I speaking for the DDP I i 1r 1 axwcll Dut you have no recollection of the DDP I indicating to you specifically or other individual indicatinc - I to you that the DDP had personally upprovcd Dr C · Gottlieb I I have no specific recollection of tl a I I no ·- -- -· I --- ------·- T I I - 0 0 0 I @ 1 l c 0 1 C •I 1 0 i 91 Mr Max c l Two last questions in resard to eratio i II II l' S 11 Discussi n off the record i 1 I 1 II I 6 Dack on the recorJ 1-lr Mc1xwe l Dr Gottlieb -· - 1- r ' ' -' - t · -1 · c- · -·· - J 7--· ' · - - ·r - • _ _ _ 1 - I 7 3 d G _' 9 To the best of your knowledge C'- did you ever sec this memorandum r-- 11 Dr Gott l e ' I hc1ve never seen the 111er 1orancurn nor e · 1 do I know anyt i -i J about it until G ju Jt toda • --- --- J - _ i •· tsoevcr ·th 9 µ hilVE 1·fcction wha -•n reco 0 L- Dr Gottlieb 1- r i·lc1x· 1ell r CVe n SC •_ - r i ou' s fy• ai's·cu S SCLJ 3 I never remember uny discussion of r·' 1 · it Dr Gottljleb I '-''Ould ilso lir e to show yo or1e other mcr 1ori 1dum -hich ogair1 docs not inclict1tc th it it u ci was either c ddrcsscd to ycu · ' 2 - written by you or show 1 to you listin J rn itcrials tha t ha cl been held is p irt of the i rtichor pco J ram 1 n the Off ice of Sccur i ty and which vcre being t r n r e fcrrcd to Dr Gunn for cisposition as he sow fit I would li i th 'thc -your reaction as to whether any of the a Jents • 0 - 0 0 - 0 - 92 1 or pentathol sodium or chloral hydrate or desoxyn were ever 0 V ' i V C 0 used in interrogations or in operations to disable or is- r r - I' t orient Dr Gottlieb I would first depose that the date of r· 0 1 6 this memorandum covers a period of time that I was not in i headquarters I il And secondly I would say that my answer to your question 1 is- rtb -1 9 0- l i r-- Mr Maxwell I • •· '--·' • l J ave no awareness of the use of any of those materials Dr Gottlieb I would like to turn to another subject which is the relationship between the CIA and the Bureau of Narcotics The copy of the opening state- mcnt which was shown to me reads as follows in regard to that ' 0 I reliltionship C 1 1 1 ' ·lc developed a liaison with the Bureau of J trcotics • 'here- L 1 C by we would share information on LSD or any other drugs within I L ' r 1 - The mechanism for this liaison was our funding of two safe houses at different times for the Bureau of Narcotics which the i3ureau would use for meeting informants and 0 0 0 0 µursuing their own business and which premises we would occasionally use for our own meetings As I remember it so c u the experiments we did on self-administration of drugs took place in one of these apartments J e Do you rccc 111 having nade that statement for the rcco1· Dr Gottlieb Yes Minus the c1r 11rJn ltical proble 1 -10 P 3ECRE I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ·- 0 0 0 93 - e Can you expand on the relations with 0 ii Du cc1u of ti 0 CO i CS as you have described it there 0 Dr Gottlieb I became aware sometime during the period I alluded to in the prepared statement thc1t an individual 5 i who worked for the Bureau of Narcotics namecl George Hhite hac 1 6 l 7 ji 8 9 ·- J · _ had sorne prior experience with i lj nct thc1t wc1s during a period when I was looking for this kind of knowlcdgeo ble individual specialist in 1n or- erational sense And I forget how but I manged to ic entify nd find out during World War II in using rnarijuana-related material in interro9ations i oss whe re l-lr White he was and I had scvcr 11 converstoion • 1 i1 J h ir i As a result of that C an arro ngcmcnt wc1s finally wor 0 out here he would Ct supplies of LSD from us c I inti use thc1 1 1 1 circumst 1nccs that he felt were of relevancy to his Ork of l J dec1ling with informants and working in the 9eneral field of narcotics enforcement and that we would be made privy at least in a Jeneral way to the results and effectiveness C 0 of these activities in return for which HL' would fin 1ncL iL · UfJiior t the r 1uintenance of these pads or safe houses which _· _ i · the oure iu of i-larcotics us I rcmer iber 1 J 1 lly opcrc1tions but had financial prohlc s as to And that Has the general noture of the lrran9c ient · - r -iaxwell Do you recull i h mo e Si ecificity he ·· -· • ' arrongc cnt began c__ -- --- - _ -- _ _ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - l Dr Gottlie' I 0 really can't 11 I can say is that it r 2 was back in the 1952-53 days 0 l Mr Maxwell It las prior to the report on Mi ULTR i that I 3 5 6 1954 was it not Ii I• Dr Gottlieb 7 Ii 0 _ 9 O' showed you which was clate bruar y l-O· i Can you identify that memo for me a litlle better ' Your question was what i that some arrangement like this had been made jl 1 f' ' J e a ii Mr t-laxwe 11 That given thatmemo is it fair to assume thut the arrangement was made prior to feuruary Dr Gottlieb ·· -1hc - the octu l activity sta tcd or 'when -·· w is rented 1 • ' 1 c in 1 · done I honestly can't don't remember I th·c fir t Jfc house I can't relate the rlates tc1lk c' lbout is the C ener i l period For instar ce 19 I really can't testify s 1 ecific lly just I 4 19 0 All time th it that vc' lS -hether sor e LSD was given to Mr White and he used it before these safe house C 0 C 1 Jc -c sr t up und a formc' ll arr in9ement m 1c c or -iot C J monCJ the memor nda that you -ere ho n however 1 3 8 4 r · · • - · · - the meraorundurn in regard to the convcrs tion with · · ' - would inclicatc t h a t n l · 5 provided J ' I C -irio - to thilt cl itc th it r emoranc lu n elated is Decenber 1953 ' e l r Gottlieb J · Uut would hc1ve to s iy thilt it is rossible •- I _ ca l in J bac i the positior of ·'•J ·e -- --· ---··-------···- -_-- - _ T p Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - e 1 l r 0 some yca s for e ory of that And I notice it s iys here r ' r c · par igri lph 5 of the December 1953 1nemo that CI distributed in II 0 ··· i1 limited quantity of LSD to George 1-lhite and I suppose Dr ·' •I Gibbons got that i -iformation from me and it is probably true 5 i l nd I am simply saying from this far back I don't have a cle ir 'I 6 7 recollection of the chronological situation Mr Muxwell You have discussed previously the general 11 I 8 9 i l - r i Hh t arrangements if any wercmade for the reporting of in- J p J 1 11 fonnc1 tion by Mr 'ihi te to you e Con you be more specific in regard to the arrangements '1 I· c·- '· arrangement with the Bureau of Nurcotic s Or Gottlieb I don't remember th t You mean in wh it 0 1 Corr i clicl - ·i · I' rc jiorts come or what l-l r ·lu we 11 Dr Gottlieb Let's start with wh it form reports c imc in I Mr 1-1 ixwell I don't remember that Do you reocmber whe thcr rl ports we re - ·r i - •·1 ' Dr Gottlieb I don't even remember that C 0 Mr M ixwell C C met with 1-ir -lhitc if it ull Or Gottlieb I certoinly et with him • '· r Maxwell Or e Do you remember roughly how often you yc 1r - ·-- ------ ------- -_- ---- Goltlich r would Ir ----- - -- - Would you meet once a year guess we woultl meet i xw ll ----- He would meet more l frequently than c cc three to four times il •··1 th 1t time would he report the rcs 1 1i - --- TO-P- S Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ·-----· ---- --- ---- 0 0 0 i i G 0 N Dr Gottlieb I' 0 g_ the testing to you I G 96 He would report to me nd I don't re- member whether it was either oral or in writing what the re- I lj 11 I sults were Mr Maxwell ii 6 7 For the record could he have reported to you by telephone rather than meeting I 1---- -------ri----- -- ------ - --- -- ---------1 -'l Dr Gottlieb ' I could have but I don't remember that specifically - 9 a-- Mr Maxwell ·- ll test J • i the substance of the reports did he describe the individualswho ere the subject of the ' '·l In regard to ' J •• · J • l C Dr Gottlieb I ·I 1 1- r Ile certainly identified them by name Max1-1ell ·lhat information might he h i ·e given i Jout them· c 1 ' i Dr Gottlieb l e might have said we h ive an informant 11 t' I ' ii ' ' i 1 ho is a male or a female aged about JS that was given this m iterial and he behaved in such and such a way Mr Maxwell C 0 0 _ '' To the best of your recollection did the rerorts that Hr ·lhite g -1vc you c escribe the extent of his C observation for instance I was with the individual - for the · J- i - lt · '· following five-hour period following the ti me I gave the···-inui- ·i- · ttif -r r dui l LSU - r - Dr Gottlieb i1· • ' 1-iaxwe 11 What was your question Did he t lcscriue the extent of his' OPP' ' 1 - tuni ty to observe ------· 1- _______________ TO r Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 --- -· --- ·- ---- ---- -- ---·- --- - - _ 0 0 97 0 e l ' 11 Dr Gottlieb I can't say now that he did that every ii 0 2 l t I 4 time But i t is probable that he had some co uncnts in that area 11' C 0 Mr Maxwell I• Did he describe the process of culti- I ' vation of the subject Did he describe how he ca c upon 11 ·1 5 6 the individual or the relationship he had with the individual Ii l I' 1 which enabled him to administer LSD to the individual ·' ii- 7 Dr Gott 1 i e b • I can't comment on that because I j don't remember whether that was part of his reporting to me Ii 9 K 10 II 1 Ii Did you have other means of ascertaining th i t Dr Gottlieb Not to my remembrance I didn't know J _ Mr Maxwell I O' 1 a these individuals 1 - Mr Maxi ell Did he describe to you the nethod by whi h l he ad inistcrcd LSD Or Gottlieb l I think he probably did but I don't l re cmber what those were except that they were usually in l ·• drinks I think he probably did but I don't remember what My perccr - those were except that they were usually in drinks C 0 tion of what he was doing was trying to use this material as 0 r C close to the manner in which we at that-·timc •tfu•ught We i Jht' ' c · f -' f · '· 0 · · • t · •- 'c 'ic' ' · _y J t ' '• · •· ·· find some use of operationally namely to see whether w·c o - ' _ ·· ·l _ - -- _ 7 _ ' f · ··· elicit more information from informants and other pc pie 'he W deuling with Ir Hax-wcll Is it your unuerstanding that - -- t - · ·- ''• • • _ - idministration was done covertly that 'is the individual su ·1 -- - _ '_ _ •_ •·_ · - ·-' · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - - - ---- -_---- -_ _· - 0 0 98 0 e l 1 1 i i 0 2 - 0 i wc -e not to k ow that they had been given LSD Ii II Dr G ttlieb That was my understanding i Mr ' axwe 11 II Did you ever at any time explore with Mr I ' Whi tc his prior experiences before this arrangement was made with 1 11 II i 'I LSD G 11 Mr Lenzner 7 i Dr Gottlieb If any I can't remember that well enough to say -- e s o r - - ---------- -- ----- -------·- ·- c-- 9 Mr M2xwell Diel you discuss with -Ir 1-lhite his own o 10 b icl ground _ hich would cn iblc him to make i determination of r-- __ 1 _ I • the appropri itcness of a subject or his lcsire to obtain l ·· 0 r icdici ll lttc tion should the situation arise -· IJ r Go t 1 i e b The only infon 1 ition that I c in brin J u - 1 - c- J l l1 l I J I I' 1 i J h t he l µ a n d th a t i s I d id d i s cu s s w i th h i t ha t ni his l· or ld Hor II ex2eriencc in this interroc ition field My ge 1er il rer iembrancc l S r i o f co u l s L' that I s h i red with him h i t- · i · ever infor tion I had on this subject it the time on LSD ir t h21tevcr wus cominc out of other parts of our rese irc' pro J - J1 1 C 0 Ir Maxwell Do you have any recollection as to the nu hcL' of individuals who were tested by r White between the time in 195 and 1964 Or Gottlieb ✓- - I could only ikc the most general guess Jnd I ould i't thi nk it would be accurate because I rcf 'lc • 1l cr ' L because is L r as I mow I just do · didn't keep a runnin J totol of it Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - •- - • L • --_ _ _ __ _-• 1- ---- __ - _ pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 99 l ' e 1zne - Do you want a suess7 0 ' 1' - ' 2 X'rv'Cl l Ii • D would like your best suess I Gottlieb I would guess between 20 and 25 in the •I whole pe iod ' Mr l· aX'-'ell In the roughly ten-year period i 6 II Dr Gottlieb I' Mr Maxwell That would indicate an average of three a 'I • 7 8 cea Yes 1I --- - C - 1-- - - r -- --- -----·- -----·· -· --·---·-• - -· -- ------ -- - ------------0 ·----·-·-· - - Ii 0 Dr Gottlieb H If you want to put it that way I am I 11 lC I not sure that 1 s the way they came or whether they were l •' clumped a lot in one year and none in the nc t j C- c J 11 ·' J • e - - some idc i or ' ax· cll 'rlr at I ar i tryin J to get 1 L t 1e numl Je - of rcorle involved If you were ccting thrc o C ou - ti 1es u ycur 1 ith Mr lvhite 1 r iecti -i JS continue bcth·ccn 1953 and 1964 with the exccptio 1 of l I did the frer uency of those the ti e that you were They ch rngcd vc ry r iuch Dr Gottlic Toward the latt art of the tir ic you arc talY ing about I probc ly didn't ncet 1 ith ther i rno -e th 1n one a yr ur or twice a yc 1r C I con'· remember there Jcin J standard tir ic ofr ieetin J hir i ull throu j that whole period 1- r So y0u would guess between 25 and JO eopie 'luxwcll over- that period of time - -tr I Lcnzr c r re co r ci o t Ii 1 l it 1 think it our3ht to s pu t be soid for the i 1 t he nor e r con t c x t t h i t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 1 s 0 0 l1 I ' 2 •I _ 1 ti I f d ' 5 6 7 8 9 C· 11 iiIi those who are familiar with these areas of investigation know area docs not have t e substantial nwnbers of informants that he is You people trying to make significant cases in the narcotics area I ·I So I am not surprised by that i Ii Mr Maxwell ii II ' running or opc -ating with at one period of time are orcrating as one agent with a relatively small number of JC· c an a cnt who is involved with inforrnanta in the narcotics Off the record Discussion off the record I 11 Mr M i xwcll Jack on the record J l ·loulci it 1 e lir ely that the nur thcr of people who - e 1 - err 1 __ involved in the testing wc1s greater in the early yeor o'' the project than in the lotter ye 1rs of the rrojcct J · Dr I would think that is possible or Gottlieb l 1 I even probable I'• I ltow ould you describe the information Mr i· a vell ' 1-lr •lhitc - ·as rrovidin J 0 is it useful to you O Jerutional ly C' Dr t o t t 1 i e b ti on ' - - to you th ii bCCclU C l -' Jnt to preface my c1nS ver to this quc - it includes some of the other infor ation 1 have given that this 1ctivity was il pare and il dirninishin - small pu rt of thinc_ s I h'as doing over this whole eriod yn1 1s r t e re son I can't be more precise i ·· answers I am givins you Out Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 your qucsti on ----- i _ - x _ - ppro_ved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 --------- 0 0 0 101 l e I I r 0 would say yes they were very useful operatio ally 2 1 I I • • 0 t practically the only information we had that was relevant to an opcra ional situation or something near it Mr Maxwell 5 · C- It 'n·as ii r With the exception I would take it of the interrogations that were being performed overseas by the Agenc 1 6 Dr Gottlieb Right 7 Mr Maxwell Do you recall at any time asking how the 9 Dr Gottlieb lG low they were selected I don't remember asking that question C' r M ix• Jel 1 Do you remember at ilny time asking about the t ' fl prior history of the subjcct _medical or psychological C 1 · d ' I l I Dr Gottlieb I don't have any sreci ic recollection of 1 that C 1 '✓ Your question - as whether I rcccJllcd discussions with I• L· l hite c1l Jout the prior medical history and the nental state of 1' the individuals I clon't remember that s ecifically ' I r cc1n't recall it but I do rer ' c iber in general shc1ring with I-Ir Hhite any infor T atior I had on hazords of this material s r did ith any other information al Jout it - r 1-laxwc 11 death Dr Gottlieb · Did you tell Mr l-lhitc about llr Olsen's terms I I think told hi1 1 about it in non-spcci --- am sure l did 1't identify the individual or probal l'_ ' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 f Jrc5i t's· · ·- tir t · - ' y- - -· ' r - -· - - I-- -- - --- -- J· s ll' t c j tfiw -lfi ' '-'-''-' - · · ·- - 1 8 0 G 102 I l 0 2 0 t even the s7eci ic circumstances but the fact that there had been that %ind of an incident that happc cd i spccific 1lly recollect but I Mr Maxwell 1 I 'I 7 probably did Given that episode was there any interrup- 11 5 6 ind I can't 11 tion -- the episode referring to Mr Olsen's death c1ny 11 I' interruption in the provision of LSD to Hr White that you can I recAll I - - I 9 iiI' C C '· 11 - J l - ' J • Dr Gottlieb Mr Maxwell I renlly don't rer cr ibcr t h it Do you re cal 1 discussing with Mr lihi te ii ii the reactions that the matcriu ls we reviewed in regard to 1 the operational use of drugs reveal about the possible I I' consc ucnccs of ingestion of LSD or A-2 0 1 · _ Dr r ottlicb '' t-lr Or Gottlieb M 1xwcl l - hi ch matcriu l Arc you referring to no• The ateri il we h ive b cn rcvicwinq The oper3tional matcri l I think _ • 1n general I shared that with them without reference to i 1ecific operations Confers ith counsel 0 Ir with ' t· l·l 1 -- rcll Herc •ou the only indi vidu il h iving cont icL lv -titc Dr Gottlieb I ra illy don't rcrncm cr th it It _ ot l cJcrcnd upon the pcrio you ure talking about - ✓ 1n touch w ith hir i at thn tirr e I w 1s in c on' t have a good rcmcrr rc-1ncc of tho t JrO C I clearly w 1s_1h I lrnd I n f ict rc 1ll·1• I don't c•11' re1 icr 1bcr noH r cthcr the whole project as Ut in 1bcy incc h•• Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 l I C 0 f After you initially discussed t C project I •' I' 11 i i 5 with 7 ti · - a-- 1-lhite do you re ic 7t ber ho he told about the project c1t CIA Dr Gottlieb 1· 6 1-lr I rc embcr discussing it with Colon l i Drum and possibly with Gibbons I 1 better than I do the latter I Mr Maxwell ' Dr Gottlieb -- 9 c Hi I go ur nut I remember the former Can you recall the circumstances of that to the office in the morning or the oftcrnoon c li J L • n ii r Dr Gottlieb J • • with him l y r iemory on this by the w iy 1- ·as joqc cd -1hen I 1- ·· re 1ct the Olsen file 1 1 J L • I don't r eme bcr the specific di5cussion 0 Mr M ' lxwcll Do you remember the di5cu 5ion with him Ii i q Because I rec1lizc that he wc1s c1warc of the generol wider activity Do ycu remember whether you 5uhr 1ittcd o rro- ·I I·- l i pos l in writing about this rather than orally 1 ·· Dr Gottlieb I rcc1lly don't remc nber 0 0 Mr Maxwell It appears from the memo thc1t I showed you 0 u 0 previously c1nd that we went over today ahout lU ULTR sub- - roJcc that was formerly a part of the ULTrv funding mechanism i c t • right Dr Gottlieb e · r M XWC 11 It looks that way After you propose l this to Coloncl_Oru 2o you· recc ill whc1t his response ' 'os Approved for Release 2022102l01 C00095171 0 0 0 ' e I l JI i 2 f 104 11 'I 11 i D Gottlieb I do not except that he cjviously a oved in some manner or we couldn't have gone ahead ith it Nr Maxwell Do you have any information or recollection 5 i as to whether he later went to his superiors j I 6 7 the Agency to at seek approval ' l Dr Gottlieb j I really have no recollection of that I think you gave us this I G material l nd that led me to C thinr thi t the matter I • w 1s specifically approved ri9ht up the T cre was soMcthing in there C l 11 n Jic_ i to that An l if you want me to I l l - if I could sec it I wc ul try to do th 1t Diel you '-''Od wilh an- r r lt• r 1-lc IX'-''ell ·lr ' iorc individual 1 1 i _ reqard to the Ourcau of Narcotics activity C Dr Go t t l i e b 'lou me 1n bcsirlcs -Ir ·lhitc I• L - I don't rcmernl er any 1· · I met Mr l nslin er in conncc- tion with r 1y activity with Mr -lhite 1 Mr -1 i - well Could you describe that r i' eting C C r ottlich Dr not spccific 1lly no I rcnc hcr bci 1 • J a buildi ig they r Hl down llcrc on 13th Street intro ucin mn to Mr Anslingc l was going to say r iy best recollection wasn't '-' isn't e 1 then - is thilt t '-· -· · - j · - r - - - ' spcci fi c r iscussion of this project bcc i usc r ' unc _crst 111dir s ' rcrnC'r tl lcr it 1- • 1s th 1t -- I ar just h i ving trou Jle o I r l fJltcri11CJ Lc u c I clon't hJ vc a s ccific remcr 1brancc f · ----------- ------------- -- __ _ -- -- --- 1113MSll' liliil IS il Ap12roved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 C 0 0 G 105 I fl i l ' I 2 · 0 t I e e -iber meeting Mr lrnslinger and hl lving the general fcelin that he was awc1re of this And more than that I am having trouble remembering i · 11 'I I 5 1'Ir Mc1xwell Hi s there anyone else at the mce ting aside from you and Mr Anslinger and Mr White G II Dr Gottlieb Not thc1t I cc1n remember 7 I Mr Mc1xwcll The Inspector Generc1l' s report indicate_ _ -- - -------' c----- -·-· --------- ----·- --- thc1t the program started out on the West Coast in 195S and on the Ec1st Coast in 1961 ·D Dr Gottlieb That sounds wrong to c - r Max ·ell low would you Or Gottlieb C c · J e l · ii i I woul l sc1y it stc1rted on the East Coilst in 1952 to 195 i ind sonetimc in th 1t period -- if I remc -r I· l • J l correctly ussigr cd it moved to the -lest Co ist when Mr Hhite w is there 1-1hich was later • · • -tr 1- ixwell The Inspect or Gener 1l' report indic ites L 1·· ·· J -- th it in 195S -- off the record Discussion off the recor l C 0 Hr Maxwell On the record -tr Lcnzncr Hhat J · Wi S the qur stion -i 1 well The question w 1 s the _Inspector ccncrill_ • s - _ · - •• · report notes that the · initial arrangement to obtain the i-ic 'i· • ·- • ' 2 1 _ · •· e services of o senior representative of the •org«nization' rnd or c of his assist 1nts on the I-lest Co 1st Coast i 1 19Gl arrc1 1c cml nt ·as cstabli ihcd • Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 paralle 1 ---- - - '- 0 0 0 ' ' l 1 0 Do you recall who the i dividua might be on the est i 0 'I II 2 i C 2 s c1nd 1 ho his assista t 1i t be I 0 f Dr Gottlieb s f3 viduals involved in both cc1ses was 'Ir White 1 6 My best rcr iembra ce wc1s that the inc iand it really involved his moval from the East Coast to the West Coast II Mr Maxwell Do you recall who hi9 assistant might be IiIi Dr Gottlieb 1-lr Mc1xv1cll In regard to the preparation of the Inspec- II q No I tor General's report did you eak to representatives in the C 10 C · 0 I I really uon' t rer 1e bcr th 'lt C J Mr Lcnzncr Di he Dr Gottlic ·I 1 '• • ' L 1 • I Inspector Gener 11 c1bout the Dureau of Narcotics testin J pro•J - 1 Dr Gottlieb You mean in this insp cti on in 19G J ' · Ii • ·- I • I nd l E don't have a specific recollection 1 -- issur ic t 1c1t 1 c i d You arc asi ing me for specific recollection - ·· I I · r 'l t X e 11 Mr Lcnznc - They obviously c c n' or i sorry The -ccorc indic 1tcs that '--' c icl rccorc his rccollc - tion 1cc11ralcly • I sec Dr Gottlieb Coast 19 l thing I You can hcthe - r told this as will tell you for a rninut c inc tell you what l e l- r can I so of f the recor thinl- this confusion - a - h·c 11 i ' ly don' t ycu L o it or u· c rcco -cl 15 De c H · this i 1c1tcrial is available -ind it ·1trnlcJ uc U 3cful if you c i Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 I 0 0 107 G 11 i l 0 clar v it I ii Gottlieb My recollections o 22 st- est Coast and • hut j i ·· arra cmcnts wereraade is that we made an arron1ernent with Mr j C 0 f · •1 •· -i itc that had no safe house connected with it 5 l nd he was j 1i ·1 6 I working on the East Coast And the facilities he used and how I don't remember I il 7 ii j Then when he moved to the West Coast -- that is not r uite true 'There was sor icthing set up on the F ost Coast ij ' C 1r And I don't rcme nbcr the details of il when he was there here that was or - hat it was or how r iuch it cost I l nd then he ii __' J l I moved to the West Coast J follo· r u him c ind I don't h ivc J · inything u til c i good deal later ' that I was not personc illy involved in this but a s 1 fe house nu my recollection is the project J • a rr menbr- --i cc of an f- Jst Co i lt 0 hn l my recollection is $ 1 L was set ll i connection with the Dureau of l• orcotics havinCJ I' nothinCJ to c lo with lvh i tc anJ h 1vin9 nothincJ to do with the 1 un1 itting adrninistratio 1 of these clruss t ut simrly ln a conti 1uin effort to exchange inforraatio 1 with them C 0 · C -Ir e i 1·' a - •e r c f c r nc e 11 to t h c Ea s t Co t i n 1 'J Gl Or Gottlieb You ar- referring to h it vOul l i' h1rC r tl' ' I have trouble d - g just 11hcn it w z 2 Uut that is about all I c 1n dredge up as to where these sa houses were ind when they were - r -' a 1 -ell • of i hite' a sistt1 1t Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ----- - eproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 g 0 e ' I I l 0 I 2 i Got t l ie J -- ' axwc 11 In arran e nents like this ith us The only individual you either dealt ith '1 - 0 D- 1 I or k e -1 ibout is participating in the Durcau of Narcotics was I ·· Mr 1- ite ' I I was aware that Hr White might be Dr Gottlieb ij deali g with one of his assistants 6 ' 1- r 1 Max· - ell Dut I wasn't Do you know the nane of the assistant he i 9 ' I - 10 C C 1-lr Lenzner Ile was asked that question before and he sc1id he cJic Jn' t he misht have been dealing with - L • • ' l ' Dr r ottlieb I don't h ive a CJOOt l recollection of th it C rc c - Jcr somebody hen I first 1ct ·lhilr on t hc 1 l C 0 1 t th i t rove him round ind w is his issist inL 'I 1 1 II '--- l the indivit lu l or not I don't know And tlu ther th lt An l I on't remember his n J ne •I I - i- _ r l J X ''e 0 i C o t t 11 ls his name 1-ir George Gaffney docs th it - C 0 0 C J · - • uell JUt not l i e l J • i 1 The n ime Mr Gaffney certainly rings this connection whntsocvcr - C i ffr cy i ny mind bri1HJS-_ Let r 1 ir c t' 1 it cle ir • • -· 0 - if - - sor ebot ly th i t worked at tlarcotics 1 •hom l hitc ne'- ti_ut t-- • ' - - rr - ' · - - - to my tnm lecl9c no _• h d nothing to do with this rogr i m The only person you can ide tify as - - · _ kno· de l Jcable ouout the i ro9r if -- the only Crson -- woulc l ' '-- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 --··----------- - · J -- --_ pproved for Release 2022 02 0 1 cooo 5 0 0 e 109 I 0 I i'd r- - - - c 2 d l- r nslinger 0 I I 2 I I you c 0 £ 'I ct with his successor Jr Gottlieb ·'i Hhen l·lr slinger retired did I don't remember that I t Other than the conversation recorded in 6 7 E l CJ your emo of conversation in 1967 I ·I • i II Dr Gottlieb I don't remember that but it would be helpful to i if you would remind me when Hr Anslinger retired Hr Maxwell I ij think it was in 1962 1 ·I Dr Gottlieb Was it that early I I 1 think I h«d C· e 3 I reolly -- I don't conversation with his oucccs lor j c · e l ' is - r Giordano If his successor is that who his succcs 01 was I remer i- bcr c in Jor·mr eting r iord rno but not in connection with any 0 of th C l ' • r Max· r 11 1 ·0uld like to correct myself net is early 1s 1962 '- _ · It W J s it was 1964 or 19G5 Do you rcc 111 irproxir 1ately how much money this proCJram _ as costing the gency during the period of time in · which you were involved Dr Gottlieb nut r -oulu JUCSs I don' t rer icr bc r the e x ic t 1mou 1 t I will just take il JUcss if·I m i y an estimate of 1bout $10 000 a ycnr - -ir l·l i - ell - 1 think the r ateri il I htlve''-shown reflects that figure ns a startup figure - Dr • Gottlieb I sec t ybe that is hat I am Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 thi 1kiny 0 0 110 0 l e It doeg reflect owever an ex enditurc 0 in 1963 the only year at that point t at we have specific 0 figures on of $30 000 a year · Would that figure be I can you provide any interpret tion of the reason why that figure would be substantially greater in I 1 6 • that year when according to your recollection the nur ilier o -7 J1 tes ts_r iightj ' elL-havc bcen less-- i nd -th c CI ' s-intcrest -migh t --- d b Ii Ii 9 Dr Gottlieb Sure In fact the imperfect rccollec- tion I have of the two safe houses rather than one should dnuulc ji 10 1· 1 1 i' -i h sir 1ply the costs both for rent u expenses uncl thut c J ' I e the amount uecausc the nmount as I remember it hc1d to do ' 'r- I a sort of thins J O er 1tions they h·erc using the apurtmcnt for they were not dependent on the things they did l 11 _ 1 L - l-i 1 itcvcr expenses they had incidcntul to the i·lr axwc 11 i ' · J' ' 11 ll they were fixed If in fact there ere two safe houses bein maintained one on the West Coast and one on the East Coust would it uc likely that there were sir lar forms of testing I 0 0 C J taking pluce in both or to the best o your recollection wns ' •' the only person ho as i dministering LS J covertly to t le best J 'J ci o i your l nowlcd Je ' r lih i te _ l r Gott li Cb To the best of my knowledge it was i-lr - ✓ •' don't rcrae bcr-- I nm speuking from perhaps a faulty 2 · 7hi te recollection but I don't remember covert testing beins I Jone in this lntcst nst Coast safe house Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95171 0 0 0 e urncd fro the West Coast there was no covert testing going 0 c 1n the East Coast Dr Gottlieb 5 the iCS t Coast I am mixed up by what you mean by that 1 I 'j C thin r - hi tc finally retired on the h'est Co is t he never came baci to the Eilst Coast to my knowledge a l 8 Mr 1- axwel 1 Then perhaps you can clarify somcthin9 Tho report rc 1ds • senior representative of the orsanization and one of his assistants on the West Coast a parallel arrangement was esta - c- ' - I ' ·1 6 I am not a are that he returned from J lishc l on the East Coast in 1961 0 The parallel cstablishr 1cnt might have incluclccJ Lhe l C opening of a safe house in 19Gl on the East Coa t cle rly -ould 't reflect the services of c1 Uut it enior rcprescnt iu· • I ' i d his as istant on I '• Dr Gottlieb the Cast Coast I can't clarify thut r iuch c ccpt to rcjleAt that r iy rcr ier 1brancc is that the C ist Coast safe house J •• wa est il lished by sor cbody else not me co i person illy -ir -iaxwe 11 I didn't l nd it w is not a center Eor covert tt St I call your c ittc 1tion t o the last 15 ic o · that p iragr iph p ige 11 sum of r 1oney hac been provided c1nnu 1tly to each of e the two i rojccts to cove costs of cllltiv 1tion of ta r Jct for the ob e -• - · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - -_· · - · · 0 0 0 11 - -----------· l tion of effect of substances on selected test individuals · It 0 2 i 1 lj Ii o- that now c1nd I can't -- 1 - it I am just having trouble wit my memory and pinning down j I• i giving you my best recollection p ii gain I could speculate that somehow by this time they 5 1 6 I 7 had hoped to test individuals but they didn't on the East Coast if that is what they ere doing 8 Dut anyway I don't have a remembrance of tests being run I there 1 I ' lG 1 C J _ Ii Discussion off the record t i Mr M ix• 1ell Jack on the record C r l•lax1vcll Off the record 0 I 11 12 Ii It is your recollection thot you had no contact with C J the s 1 e house project for c1ny covert tcsLin J if it '' on the C st Coc1st h'Cnt Dr Cottlicb That is PY recollection on __ · L r I c nznc r After a certain period ' 0 0 0 ' 1 t· r 1- 1 wcll l fte - 1961 ' Dr r ottlicb - l i C 0 - - c ' - - ·laxwe 11 Do you rec il l who in the gency would have been connected with this project · 2 Or Gottlieb not me e · r -la X -le 11 ln connection wiLh this Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 113 0 0 0 Dr Gottl iej One of three I would thin to the best 0 • 1 3 a 4J A9oin 1 e '· Jut I don't thin so Mr 5 I ay be forgetting another individual in there Maxwell The evidence that we have indicates that i the DCI and the DDP were briefed annually on the HKULTRA pro1 1 gram 6 --------- -8------4 ---- -lD i- d-l--'J 'AQ-'-U'----'O-ryattH -th es e--hruf-ings 2------ ----------i 1 9 Dr I Gottlieb What period are we talking about now I 1n r the period prior to 19G3 again C ' l - r ·lc1 x1 ·ell Prior to 1963 ' Dr Gottlie J I really don't remember whether I person ill ' J - C C j s ve those brief incjs whether I organized them rnd fflDit I don't t ' _ 'I I L • have thc1t srccific recollection of that 'rlherc ' ls later on 1 re- · ember very clearly that there arc written reports on MKUL RA ' - thi lt went up ser ii-annually or annually after the Inspector General's rc ort C 0 0 Hr 1 - M ' lxwcll The Inspector General's report indicates tll i t ' tiH -IKUI TR program di rector has in fact provided close supecvision of the testing program from the beginning -· _ · and mul cs l eriodic visits tolthc sites · • · • -- _ •• · · - -· ·· · ho would that individ ual be e t 3 a 4' v · Mc 1-la - 1 ell The ·r c 's report aiso indicates that you Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 114 ' l had stated that the I la -cotics 0 ·· 2 c t • '- · 4 · - - _· has stated that the Director of the Dtlreau of Narcotics would •' _ I disclaim all knowledge and responsibility in the event of ·1 i compromise •i 5 The quote ends there 1 6 7 1 I later memorandum from i i 11 Hr Jiclms indicates that that was confused in that he would disclaim responsibility if asked · 8il- ----- ---- -- --- ---- 1 •I Lr 9 by the 1 gency ii Dr Gottlieb Dehave in a manner to protect our interests j 10 Jl C Mr Maxwell Do you recall discussing that with Hr ii 1 '-· i nslin9cr J r- 1 De Gotllicb lot specifically My recollection of d a ·-• C l that is based almost entirely on the materials th 1t you arc 1 referrin to now 1 Mr Maxwell Off the record Oiscussion off the record Mr 1· il WC 11 One of the criticisms which the Insrector Gener 1l's report makes of the pro Jram is the inc' lhility of t hc g v observers to either mc1kc opr ropriate scientific cor ents on wh 0 ci t 1cy sa 1 or in f 1c t t0 mal' e observ itions beyond the first ho•Jr - _ - - of the test · The Inspector General's report indicotes th it there smore th Jn one a9cnt observing - WJ Dut whether or no his t1H s i c µroblems o ould seer 1 to urisc of troininCJ of the person who was · uP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 both fro the ng in the conLexL _ _ - ' O ' t t J - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I --- - ------------------· II - of an ex erirnent and the lac cf opportunity in informant ·- 115 I situatio s to observe over lc g periods of time i ii r 7 9 r -'- C J J' - J I · Dr Gottlieb I vaguely recall it ii Hr M ' Jxwell It is page 12 I i 1 Dr Gottlieb I think cy only cor unent from that ii 6 ---- General's report i 5 t Do you recall this criticism arising in the Inspector i 1 Ii is that I don't think this corner of the ULTM project was -- I I 'I '1 i ' looked uron as a scientific ex eriment it was more of an operational simulated operational test nd I don't think as I remember it that we were hoping to get what I would call scientific information from it ' Could I reread it ' -lh t 1- e 1 en re illy after w is how much operation il r1ood it did in the Dureau of Narcotics terms were they able to get '· l · more information or not ·• - ' ny other inform ' ltion of course would be useful nut that was the main purpose of it l nd my remembrance is thut althouqh they rriight not have stuck with these UIJjects around tht 0 0 u clock 0 they hod repeate access to them they could sec them C the n- t day they could find out whut happened Mr 1· u ell Do you recall the hospitali ation that resulted from one o the ap Jlications of LSD as rcfcre nced in the I G report i r - Got 1 i c b I don't recall the specifics of it lfoen I re t the report I reme cr that something like that - - - - - - - - ------- ----------- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 a d a pe -son went to the hospitnl -nd ca 1e ou and @ 2 11 · 0 £ 0 - - •lc - · ·cll ow would hat have been tceated by Geocge 1 ' 1-ihite Would he have notified you of the fact that t o ieone 1 _ •ent in the hospital immediately · 5 · ·1 6 1 8 a 4 C I 'I 11 I De Gottlieb can't even remember whether it happened when he was reporting directly to me or dealing with 1 s 1 oc what -------- 9 _1 If he tbought it was important thing he would have called me a serious It c t- i - la n cll Do you recall him dealing with Dr Gottlieb Oh yes r i·laxwcll J --· t would he ha vc probably done q 10 • · hzi 1 3 a f c • 0 • 1t the ye ncy De Gottlieb Do you rec ill him dealing with inyonc cl I think he dealt with Lashbcook r '-- Mr L ·- Maxwell De Gottlieb Anyone else I don't remember inyonc else -tr 1•ia 1ell 1- h it Wi S the context of his dealings ·ith Or 0 0 r Lashbrook- ' J Dr 0 ith me hir 1 on - Gottlieb They would be the sc1me as his ciealin1 s ·or -L shhroor 1 1ould JO out to contact 1i 1 o - ci ll the phone and ask hi how the reject was can't cernembcr who the principal project officcir it 1s prob l ly one of those two 1-•a · -ic a I 1 i i'lt sor ietir ie s ave rs c as Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 117 I il 11 l - C rl you initi te or the CIA individuals i 'I 1 i initiate the contact wit George White or did you Jc it for C J him to contact you r I• •I 1· Or Gottlieb No it was both ways I am sure 1 ti ii 5 11 Mr Maxwell And do you recall in the context of your i II 6 7 briefing or CIA's briefing of the DDP and the DCI specifically ii descrihing this relationship with the Dureau of narcotics 1 il 9 i c - I J - the DCI o you recall whether you specifically brought up I' · l Ii Mr Maxwell If you did the briefings for the Dor or 1 I'1i i 4 - the question of the relationship to the Durcuu of arcotics ' · · r i or I to 19 6 J D - Gottlieb I don't specifically rcmemuer that l ·ir 1 - well l- j Oo you recall ueing told th it the per son ' who did the briefing brought that up l l· 0r I Go t t l i c b No I can only suy I don't rcrne bcr any I l I ' I instance of my feeling or discussing that it shouldn't be brou t up ' · • -1 r - a xwe 11 J u Jain _ i1S The Inspector r eneral's report st itcs one o t c potential 1-JC J knesscs of the r ro Jr 1r 1 ri ' r of co 1 ror 1ise wa c r ·las the security of the progr im an impo ·- ti1nt con idcration to Clh llr Gottlieb e Ir -1 1 well Certainly · The Inspector cn rc1l' s report indicatr Lh 1t 1 i dic il consultation and assistance is obtaincc when 10 p·- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - - - - - - - - - 118 G ar -op -iate throug separate KULTfv arr inger 1ents in o - c - to 0 n 0 rnotect the secu -ity which might be thretcnecl if an ind vidu il j ' I went to a spccic ilist who correctly diagnosct l the i 1 lness as 'i •i i ji 5 1 1 tion and assistance to Hr White or to any other individuals j1 1 in the Dureau of Narcotics for this purpose I 9 lC C · 1 ' - 8 t l · Do you recall CIA making available mct lical consulta- 6 ii c- resulting the ingestion of LSD Ii Dr I remember us making iv iil ible in at Gottlieb le ist t1- •o instances that I can remember medic il individuals - hysicians who Herc doing -wrk in this field and - ere what you I might call expert in it avc1ilable to Mr White for consult i- J L - 1 •• • tion and infonnatio -i 0 C ll Lcnzner ·of the record 1 Discussion off the record J Mr l i axwell D 1ck on the record To t h c t es t o f you r r cc o 1 1 e c t i on u s t h e a i i n i s r 1 i o 1 of LS Jy r llhitc t lonc in the context of his ad iinistcri 1 J it to c1 single individual Dr ·· - Gottlieb I cc1n unswer thc1t by s iying oE my recollectio 1 hat w is alwuys done recollection o the best To the best of m those administrations were in the r ode of i pcl LC• e -iforccracnt officer to inform int or informants they ·--- 0 1n -Ir the roon at the time T h 1 t is 1- ·h 1 t l oc in 1-lax cll C in you recall ever becoming J ·are of i · · incident h'herc individuals h iving no connection with Ir · - hi • Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 •·• _ _ _ _- -- -- - --- Approved for Relea_se 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 I G ii l ij 0 i 2 t ould gat 1er together and had LSD administe ed cove -tly t 1 the 1 li 0 t Dr Gottlic J l ot to my recollection ii ii Mr Maxwell The inspector General's report describes ' Ii s I' I Ii 6 II of the advantages of working with the Dureau of 1 arcotics on page 11 as follows The particular advantage of these arr ingements with 7 11 I 1 8 0 one II I caniz ition officials had been th it test sugjccts could 9 be sought and cultivated lG control within the setting of C 1 'J '-' J ' a C · 11 II Some subjects h ive been n ircotics informers or members of suspect crimin il elements from whom the orgonization h is obtained results of O Crntional v ilue throu' h the tests 1' On the other h ind ' vicuals cJ t all social levels high incl lo· n itivc - u riccJn 1 ·• foreiyn 1s of yrcat significance and tc tincJ has been per- '' forme l on a the effectiveness of the substances on indi 111 variety of incliviciuals 1- ithin thr c c ite Jories C in you recall ony instcJnces whereby you becor ie a i rc th t r l hitc used LSD covertly against j eoplc he sus 1ected of bcin '· involve l in narcotics trode or of criminal activity 1n - gener l rather than particularly with informants J • or Gottlieb - Could you repeat that I ar l really trying to get the distinction between informants -- you ' people who were either n Jrcotics adc1icts -- CJ -Ir M 1x ·c 11 ilurcotics utldicts or people he suspcctc 0 · of being involved in narcotics drug trafficking Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 120 C @ l I guess my answer would be that I assu Dr Got licb 0 '• 2 that he gave it to people like that people from whom he raig £ I I t 1 Ii get information and not just an informant who comes and say here is what I am telling you It might have been some suspc Tl 5 ll 6 ii up specific cases that I know like that My impression is that they were used that way 7 8 9 lC '- c • ll I can't brine Mr Lenzner As a practical matter I don't sec how that II Out in can be done I any event I won't telabor the record You can't have control over arrest or detention of a suspect Ii unless he is an informant II I Dr Gottlieb I assume you a -c talr ing about h winq so · 1 '1 J 1 i body up to this apartment and siving him a drink 0 J i Out your recollection is not th l ·' i • l solely t lone ith pe orle 1-1ho • ere in an informunt rclati m hip l i _ 1 Dr Gottlieb I am assuming that h did his ork on i· grouµ of peorlc that had connections with his nurcotics ' · ment ork And I am not restricting them to what we both undc stand as inform 1nts ' •• Mr Ma - wc 11 J · cnfo 0 - •2 rc Do you have any recollection of bcc ming of any incident which involvc l his covertly testing - ' LS 1 ' · - on people not 1n any way connected with his work in law cn4 forccmen t •- e •1 Dr Gottlieb I •• · • - 't '·¥- t i-•· · 1 4 don't have any specific informution o that Ir -la - wcll ---·---- - - - The lnsµecto General rcµort notes ir - - - · - - - - - ---------------- TOP EJ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ' --···· · - -----· -- --- wU' - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009 5 '1 ' '7 1·c - 0 0 0 I @ l I testing has been I r I 0 I 2 individuals at all 0 f s II social levels high and low native Americans and foreign II II 5 covert testing activities of the gency II I I 6 7 - r - C It might refer I really don't know to the overseas work too I just don't know 9 11 which we have agreed Iithink is testing without I I of thein lividual J J ·- Gottlieb I '' c- Dr 8 10 C'J Would that refer to Mr White's activities or other r Mr Maxwell llave you any information on covert testing I I Ii Dr Gottlieb Yes i Mr - c1x· ell ' J · ·1 the knowledge Outside of the covert testing Hhich w i hcin J pc r orr 1ed by 1-l r --lhite usin J sulJsta11 su r lied by CI Dr Gottlieb o r··· ·-· iI r- Mr i·l 1 we 11 l • 1 · limited to LSD Dr Gottlieb To the best of my knowleJge J · · Were the substances supplied by CIA t ow this mcrnor rnc1um you rc icr ber discussed chloral hydrate and mariju 1 and I forget one other substance Mr ixwe 11 The othc r subs t rncc w 1s t ible ts I wan tee '--• - 0sk you if you can recall that Or Gottlieb I can't recall I would s 1y that it is possU le that it may have been supplied I can't remember a tablet tctrahyJ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 Chloral hydrate is a substance anybody can get anywhere 1 Mr Max· cll 1 Do you have any recollection of the rclution 5 II i ships between CI and FDI in this connection with regard to 11 6 _ 11' _____ Dr Go tlieb I Mc1xwcll 9 - fl l I have_ n ecoHection o__ _tha t Did you ever discuss or did unyone to the I 1 2 1 _ Mr application of LSD or other drugs best of your nowledge in TSS discuss covert te ting with the l C the possible covert Dr Gottlieb not to my knowledge 1i J Let me rcmincJ you again ol I w isn't around for two yc 1rs 0 C t 1 is work w 1s being on 1· C ind it could have hc ppenec thc 1 1 1 - 1 I 1 but not to my kno1 1leclge r 1 'J ·' I · C l - Lat er on e hud coordinated c1ctivitics ith the FDI i sor ie fielcJs of research and audio anJ photogr 1phy _ 1 · ' c e rt a inly de i 1 t with them ' l 0 0 - 0 und we Dut I don't remember this arc ever bcin j ta en U with it l · 1- r - 1 •ell Some of the office of finance reco -ds 1-1it 1 C resl ec o ·U l iLTfv incJic itc that 1-lr ·lhite was puid certc1in cf 2 these - ✓ -· - furn is in cash Do you hc1ve any recollection · lie 1 a s c1 l 30 pil to why thilt woulcJ be id by checl- Dr - Cottlieb I don't really recollect that being do -ie or why it wc1s clone I don't have a -- 2 - ilS - - --· I' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 f 12 0 l ' G l- r Len - e - t-ihat kind of a - -iou its are we talking about 0 2 Mr Max cll SJOO $500 cash apparently and consistently · C t for about $1500 a check And the records arc very scanty because the O fice of Finar cc records prior to 1960 have been 5 destroyed 6 -- --- - - 7 3 ·· c _· l - e •- ti•· • ·-· 'I -- --- ii jl York and California used 1 l i II i Dr Gottlieb believe 1 The • mi9llt h vc been used forr 1cctings -- c arc t 1lJ inq nbout research one as I said it could be ri' ht or 1- ron J that some C ' ' - of tllese meetings 1 hcre W self-cJdmini l re l LSD c --irly on · 1 cre held there I ' ·i operationally Out I certuinly don't rcmem Jcr rnything if by that you mean connected with Agency opcr - I r •• i•- C l r •· tions · ' T' iD 1-1as I don't remember any of that as distinct from activit ' involved in in their rescurch program_ 'Ir ·lcXI-IC 11 1-lr Helms cJescribccl using the Uurcau of t ircotics is i the relationshi is cutout hat HOuld he ri1e 1n by using the 0urc iu c1s a cutou · Dr Gottlieb he said that - My memory is hazy on th it but I my answer to that is certainly not for CIA operations ' - -----·- for CIA operations at all • I' C · can't answer that lr 9 J J ¥ •· _• I 11 ' Dr Gottlieb I -e -1d or s c the - on cxt in ·hie think 1 could cJnswer that better abouts would it be l 1 ve Could I Jccausc I 1-ihcre rcr icr tlH r re i ing some of tltc1t Ecclin J t -1 it it c cJn be misunderstood -·-·- - -----· - -·-c - -_ - r __ _ ' i·u '_Q__lJ Is th it in the ' ugust r 1cmo -·--· - --- · ----- -' --- ··-·- ·---- --- --- -- - -- ---- - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 19 ugus ' ·· 0 0 0 1 - ''1 'I i l ·- or the ii 0 r 2 Ii 1 c cr p ragraph 4 Dr Gottlieb You mean just a step once re oved from - ·I i us to qet this testing done i• i t 1'- r MaX -lell I G 7 Ii I 0 itself w ether that is funding Mr Max ·ell 11 ·· 1 -· c I i i tions abot ther i I believe '· · for you involved in the preparution of the rnemorarH u 1 the Deputy Director of Centrul Intelligence Dr Co t t l i e b Mr luxwell ' ' Helms described in the sume rnemor indu 1 that the informatio is corn mensur 1 c with the ri ks ·le e '· r I can ask specific ques- h i c h h e de s c r i be c1 a s re il 1 C _ It might be useful to go L rough some specific questions in regard to these memoranca which reflect i1 1 or -- in this cuse he says I 'I the end o the covert testing program ' ' ' Dut i t specifically testing C It is used in several wa - means to remove the CIA by one or two steps from the activity 9 · Gottlieb Dr I How is the term cutout• - sually used I imagine that I was sure And it is your testimony thut the re orts ere of st Jst i ntiul vulue Ot the informution - is of sub- stc1ntial value Oh yes Dr Gottlieb Mr l-1 txwell 1- ho would those re orts huvc gone-to if• • ''' • id'· • ' _• in 'J · co i_es of e ither - cit en re orts by hir or mcizcranca __ or the - _ reco n l 1 out the results to ind iv i u J l outs ice o 7S0 fact you were meetins with -Ir l hite if you huve Eoc· 1arce Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 _ _- 0 0 125 Gottlieb I certain y wouldn't have done that I 0 2 they sho ld have been aired with the individ al who on the program within the TSO ' 'OUld Mr 1·luxwell Ii 1nd i 5 1•8fa 4 Ii Dr Lashbrook -And later on I Dr Gottlieb ' 1 G nd that would have been gucns possibly 71 1 1 Ii 8 ji Mr 9 it i discussed l 'j Ii l l I Ma - ·cll There is a meeting on 29 lovember 196 which the testing of certain drugs on unwittin J U S c i ti z c n s take it by your testimony that to the best of your J recollection it was only LSD rather than any other druqs I Or Gottlieb Riqht T -ir i not s iying l 1 ii Jllt not l12 vc bcc i used once or t1 •ice c 1rly on r 1 · - I Jut certainl' ' 1· the rinciµ --d iic re too thrust i as LSD and possibl 1 'lcretr in was used I don' t 1-it• i-l 1 1-·ell Or Gottlieb C th it these other drugs we talked about remernbe r cxac t ly -1hen · ere you present at this meetin J It says I was So I i SSur ie l · · 1s l con' t have a specific recollection of it new - r ·- a 1 Jell ' r E irt ian im lic itc - his belief that the -· facilities which were vailable for uncontrolled tcstinq le t 1 iuch to be des i reel I Do y61 1 recall mf l' lbcrs of the Ins H ctor General's sta ' visiti 1 J those f c lities or do Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 1 e ther i '0 · _ _ · ·· ' 2 c Dr Gottlieb I don't remcr ilier ther i visiting them 0 They were probubly briefing them but I don't remember it I speci icully 5 Mr Moxwcl 1 6 Dr Gottlieb I imagine so And facilities were in the two safe houses r rr C'- 0 i 9 I Dr Gottlieb Unwitting testing I Mr Max - cll 1 11 C l l J - I I i used for -Hot to r iy kno ledye Do you Y now if at any time medical personnel were present ut the tests conducted Dr Gottlieb 1-l r hi t c I doubt it very much 0 C Mr 1- i x1 cll One of the cldvunt iges which the Inspector Gener il's report noted for the rrangerncnt with the Oureuu o M ircotics v s th it the Oure iu h id very strong ind close c_ -· ' J · relationships with locul police ' I 1n f ct u flur thi t arose the Oureau might be uble to cul 1 1 1r · • this relutionshir to minir ii7 e the kno1dedge ubout the inci lc1 t 1 l To the best of your knowledge was there ever such L ' i ncJ i there w is 0 0 C il flop J Dr _ ••• I C -' Gottlieb Jot to r iy recollection Maxwell Or such breach of security Dr Gottlieb I don't rcr ier ber any fl i i of any pro- po tion 1n connection with this program Do you rcci ll 3t uny time the Ourei u o RET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I 0 0 0 e 127 I i I Ii 1 o - th a y othe - p -oject with which the CIA was engag d in 2 effort with the in order to minimize the securl 0 II I' I 0 i I• t i 1 5 6 • i ty camase Dr Gottlieb I have no recollection of that I Mr Maxwell 1 comment in the I G 's report didn't reflect an actual incident 7 Ii e where this occurred Dr Gottlieb I think it was potential rather than an II incident 10 II -Ir 9 Then to the best of your knowledge the CJ ' C l J • __ 1-laxwell ji I i onothe - In December of 1963 Mr llclms wrote memo r 1 ncl ur i for the DDCI on the su ject of the testin j J L - l of psychochemicals 1 · - ·11 lC i h J collabor ition J ' i • -· l - C ' J •' -1e the r urcau of c1rcotics as eicJht ye rs of close Woul l that lescription appear accurate to you given your Jr scri tion of the program Dr Gottlieb I - lie described the irr ingement that That is a h rd qucs tion for r 1e to Yes I suess that would he accurate Hr i-lc ixwcll lie t1lso 9oes on to say -continued attention - · to observ ition ilnd control of the results J the testing c1s feilsible 1 •oul l be exercise • l• - Your tcstir 1ony so far h is provided relatively little inf0rm 1tion about the questions of observatio -i the r sults o the estiny be ab l to 1G lt w l it a 1 l control of An l I w s on cring if you might - r l elr 1s r 1c anL by ET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 tho t t i tc_r iQ_l _l_ __ -- __ i Ii ii I think te probably cant that we would Dr Gottlie o as · - ell cs the circu 7lstanccs allowed us to in this a -ea II I 'ir 1- 2 xwell nd he s2 ys continued attention to ouscr- vaticn and central of the results of the testing 5 tion had been made prior to this as to the question of oDserva- 6 tion and control 7 Dr Gottlieb 8 · --- '' I -1' I I' C J - L t G I I tivcity as we can And I am reading that to mean that that woul be of use to us 11 Mr 'iaxh·ell Did you at any time to the best of your 1' • • rcco lcction indicate to ir l hitc techniques of observution ' C I think _observation and control here means we would get as many relevant observations on the ac- 1 Well I 9 c l-lhat attcn- J - ' I ' • - hie should be follo cd De the kinds of rerorts which should c 3 • n I '--- ' lj i Dr Gottlieb Oh yes i T 1e events I mentioned be orc concerning these t lO I -1 research physicians was just to go over that area along lith othc --s Ir l0x1 1cll Do you recall there being changes in the amou t of information or the ind of infor-mation then made - civailat lc Dr Gottlieb I don't recollect that Mr Maxwell When you say control of the resul s of-i e tcsti 1 J c i 1 you µrovidc any insi9ht into -h i t he rae i nt i r Gottlieb T s you probably know that Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 is very i r ilii9uou lir e he is talking about the sec- rity of the -esults SOt - s I' 0 £ _I 1 1 1 - - d - e seems to be saying that we will ry to keep those pretty tight as we have in the past 'I' 5 I tlr Lcnzner And I think parts of the memo reference the ii d fact that this has been a secure operation in the sense that it 6 1 i 7 I has -1' t been disclosed isn't that true q 8 9 1-lc1xwell II I think that is correct Mr Lenzner Ii · C- '· j fc1ctor 1 l i Mr 1·' i xwell The memo of June 1%'1 for the the DCI on •I L · e l 1ns JCI with the exception that the un ·itliny prosram w is held in abeyance for decision hy C· c the subject of Ml-- ULTR ' research programs was approved by the act - l i • testing the DCI The c1cting DCI -- was it Gencrnl C rter I l 1 Dr Gottlieb Th it is whose signature is here i·' r a wcll Dr Gottlieb l-lr Is he i general Oh yes i·luxHell General Carter noted that he approved the rccom 71cnd itions 1n thc t memorandur i except -- and rote in th it unwitting testing Hill 2 - he hand- the sub- ject of a separilte decision Do you recall that decision Or Gottlieb I really don't And when you try to uiscuss- this _•ith anybody that was oround then Approved for Release 2022 02 01 co 0095171 this tails out _ --o 0 0 130 -'- G best recollection was that Hr Co c simply never ade a 2 decision on that Ee was presented -- and he obviously Hil ½ I 5 be giving some testimony about this -- he was presented 'n'ith a memorandum or there was a r e orandum drafted a id 1 6 Ii Ii ii sent to the Director of Central Intelligence from the DDP date 9 tlovc iber which asks for a decision in regard to the unwitt i J 11 _j 1 testin9 I l c To the i r ' 11 I i action on l l bes· t· of your rcco1 I e c 1on · you don' e---·n cal 1 arry· c this memorandum Dr Gottlieb I definitely don't i nc l I remember isic c J t e • l ·· fror 1 this rncmorundum and not tied o wny p 1rtii ul ir r 1emor Jnd 1 L 1 a very clear recollection I oint sevcr il - r J · 1 ti ies -ia - 1 ell Dr Gottlieb t Ii i r have 1s his heing needled on be reminded t - c t he hadn't r 1 1cle J the lecisi Dy 1 hom I t lon't remcr ilicr by hom I just reme nb• r t h o t '- c1 s a n i s s u c th a t a s u n re so 1 v e d Mr ·li1 - well Did you ever meet ith hir about urwi ttint testimony Dr occasions Gottlieb I I im tryinc I to rccull really c in't testify that I r ic t hi r on s c· - - _ ever met him on - that specific 1roblcm Th 19 - KCL R ' sub- Hojcct t o • wit Gt urc c ·lhitc the curlier memor nJu about J whi c rc errcd to the r l ons 1i inJicatc l thut the Of i e cf Security · s Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95171 fl 1 - · _· · ·- - - ---· -- - 0 0 0 · - ·· going to be ade a are of this pro ect 0 2 ias the Office of Security a are throughout of time that there was an arrangc c it with the Narcotics that TSS 5 then TSO had such an arrangement I think so Dr Gottlieb ii · • Now when you say the Office of Security I want to be careful There were several groups in that that would have 1 8 Ii _ sc Ji fUf_cc - JC rln tt __x e lhaa-4 t - ii -iO rnrt -S3 lr 11i -'ppr s --ttc ortcnh1 1 s -- -·1r' cc 10 n --- -4 - '' 9 _ 10 1 I 1 Ii r-- Dureau of 6 7 the period I t - kn Ow w he the r the Artichoke side had any awareness but certainly the ecurity side that had to do with security approvals ilnd that sort of I l - ' c thing had an awareness J '- 0 1- r · '·li1 Xlve 11 Did you ever talk that you can recollect o any incJividuill · 1ithin the Office of Security ubout this C Dr believe I l · ' '-' Gottlieb dicJ h ive no Si e cific recollection I iJut I becau c the 'tuestion of George ·lhite's clearance a id the pu r -iosc of it came u lr 1-' axwell l r Gottlieb flut subse- uent to that uiscussion ·· Subsequent to that I really don't hove a recollection - r µresented Dr there any reaso 1 1 hy this • 1s not to or reported Gottlieb I to the rtichoke Cor vnittec iraagine the only reason would have been a concern for broadeniny the awareness of its exi tcncc -1r •r t a - 1 ell ·li s ' l 2ll Dr Gottlieb you have testified th it there • as to th·c best of your knowledge no other covert testing --- - ---- --- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 ' •' e 0 -_ • 132 • ra being run under CIJ auspices other than the Dureau of 2- rco tics tcs ting program £ Dr- Gottlieb l·lr MilXWe 11 To my knowledge there wasn't There was however an extensive research 5 I rogrilm in regard to human experimentation on psychochcmic ils 1 1 6 Dr Gottlieb Yes _--- ' - -- ---- ----- - - - -- -- - - - - -----i·_lr_ -1'- la_x-w_e l_l_ ___i_ _a_s__ t_h_i_s _il_l_l_ r_e r_ i o r_m_e_d__u_n_d_e_r _t_h_e__f_u_n_d_i_n_g_ _ __ S _ i ·9 - 1 1 Ii I i II C structure Dr e c _ f M - UL'i'PJ or was this funded scpurately Gottlieb recollection i-ir '-·• L - 0 am just thinking -- to the best of my I it wus all pulled together under ULTPJ i·l i 1 ell · 'us the J ' ency i wolve l in designin J the J i • con rols on the testing using humiln subjects ilnd rsychocl1e1 iiccJls 0 Llr I gue s my ilnswcr- to thilt Gottlie woul be to the extent th it the project monitor for the purticul lr Lc ojcct 1 •cis Je ilin J with the 'L sign of the noject i llut certainly t ie C 0 0 principal investi Jator 1 n the c- there would he thAt kind of involvement JC would leave it to the institution or investicJ«tor to do t e desi J 1 of the experiment Mr ·- x1- ll Did CI inJepcnccntly require the invest it 1- V 0 tion o the r ieclicc1l or psyc 1olo' ical sti1tc of the subjects o the t st utilizing human volunteers and psychocheraicals Dr Gottlieb - I think we ould leave that to the in vcsti' i'ltor and institution involved whatever their norm -il r cticcs- ct·12 i·lr '· that is -1hc1t c ould go alo g with ·l - 1 cll Did the Cl ever inc lepcnden t ly require _-- ------ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - ------ - ----------- 0 0 0 G 0 ollo' 'U on the part of the i - stru -- - cnt lities who 1 ·ere •I I 2 ' I' ii 'I 0 f 1 erfoIT 1ing the research on subjects hum n subjects who had been tested with psychoche icals 'I I 1I 1j ·1 Dr Gottlieb Not that I can remember 'rle assumed that we 5 I are dealing with responsible experienced investigators and 6 II we went along with our own standards In other ·ords I I am trying to r wke the _point thnt in we did our h lce onece the was how responsible they were how thorougl1 they were ' they were ' c · r To the best of your knowledge have the re J - Ii '--·· I' been any deaths in connection ith hurn in use expcr imcnts lh 1t 1 0 C C · 1 - ·cre conductc l or supported directly or indirectly by CI _ Dr Got tl i e 1J lr 'I i ' To the best of my Y nowle l e no la well To the best of your knowled JC have ther c been ny injur ics in connection with human use e -periments th at _ ere connecte l or- supported directly or in lir ectly by I -- Cii C 0 0 C Dr Gottlieb LSD ancl Injuries is fallen down you knm · mi Jht not remember it 1 term -- someone 1 ·ho h is had or had a minor incident ny major incident like that I and I c Jn'L • •· remember 'le i re excluding Dr Olsen - r l· a -well · ere there any incidents thut required hos- pit li tion to the best of your knowledge Ur Cottlicb I really can't testify as to that Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 becau c --------------------------- -- -- - ·- · -- - --- pprnved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 l e l a lot of these I 2 · 0 f I I institutions in hospitals and mcnt il And when you say hospitaliz ition the people - Mr Lenzner lie is asking as a result of uny experiments i1 were already hospitalized 5 J or tests I 6 I 7 Dr Gottlieb I want to testify carefully on this point And if I said not to my recollection which I was inclined to I 8 - AY t o4 r hecause or a r ia orinj ury as n result of an LSD ----- -9 L7 experiment I would say -- 10 Mr Maxwell 11 Dr Gottlieb All right Let's use that as a definition J c 0 12 C 0 J I I l• y ins ·er is not to the best of my r no -lec CJC ·1 Mr l-t ix1- •ell In order to m 1 e t 1e rr cord clear hOI 1 C· tj i i rc you defining m jor injury I• I l ' I Dr Gottlieb I don't know wh 1t I can ciu intify th 1t fo I i C 1 ' _' l ' - l · I II you re illy i 11 1 I am using it in u more qualitative sense 1s something that required the kind of medical care that would be more tllc in an ovcrsi9ht somethin J like that licc 1use he w 1s • l Up Ct 0 0 0 l u 0 2' lj' i 1-lr Maxwell · ere there incidents such as you just desc ri H I ' _ I • •1 ·- · '1 ' '-•· where people - ere keet in hospit 11s overnight liecause of their being upset 1 ' Dr Gottlieb I don't remember any such specific instanc I_ e llut I am leaving th 1t ' roviso that they might ha vc been '· 2 think a major hospit 1liza tion I would be m 1dc aw irc of I --- -- Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I · - c -· -- -· --- ·-· ' ·· 0 0 0 ii _ @ pprov_e for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 · - lJS I 1 As the person who W 1s gcnc -ally -- ·I 1 i I - f -IOU ld it be fair to describe yourself as the rcrson who was ii 1 9cnc - 1lly responsible for ' ULT -' throughout its existence as the I e report did I I I' G 7 Dr Gottlieb I don't think that is uite accurute In the first place I wasn't there for two years second place J nd in the there as a program director under me when I was 0 - i - _ 9 1 lO II Ir Muxwcll Prior to the tirl c thut you left for oversc is ' c- I ·1 - j J l · - p I cl S ignrnent -- l1 -ic 0 J -· i I 0 r Gott 1 i e b think that would br uccurate nct1- •ec 1 the time that you returned to T 1 l 1 -- 1 ·cl l and he t ii- c t at you bccu - e De Juty Chief would th 1t be ic 11 - i ·' '--· u ·- l '·' ' · i I' lo Dr Cot tl i e b that would not Jc 1ccur 1tc ur - J c iu c or a lonCJ period there -- I don't kncH how lon J a yc 11· j or two -- 1 1 as Chief of 'the n O pcogram 1- it r i Jny othc - n s L1 - -· sibilitics nc l only one of the br inc cs unc Qr that ran the ' ULTIU p roe_ r 1n1 J •• 1- r -L1x1-1cll Other than the incident th it you clcsccib •-- 1n youc opcnins statement involving Or Ul cn nd the i 1 · cicJcnt s of sclf- Jdministration ind the incidents of intcrroq tion ovcrsc 5 the operationc1l use overseas were there Jny CXj Crimcnt s or o 1ecation involvin J Cii pcrson wl • p s y c 1o h c r i i ca l s ' i t h i n t he U S • ---· ·----- - --·----- - 0 0 0 0 D - 2 Gottlic i I think mentioned ln my opening state- - cnt there • as a pericd that I referred to 3s defensive I harrnacology I 1 Ii 1l Mr Lcnzer 'I Dr Gottlieb 6 i Mr Lenzncr 7 I 1 Which you testified about ilrcady ti Yes People going abroad thot could recogni e and identify I Dr - Gottlieb That was done on CI auspices with CI I ·' medic - present I I-Ir c J l • e 1 J You had rnentioned yc tr rday in regard to the interroyations reported Jt the Qi llll l T0 1 cor1ference that U ' IILLTOP hc1d a domestic countcrp 1rL th Jt part o i Jr J it octivitics had do ilestic r0r 1ific itio 1 j l Did that involve research on hum 1n 1 ujccts is part of l Ma v1ell 1 11' l l • L i Dr Got tl i e-h - I ar i very confused 1liout that · only confusct l ubout that 1'· terms of -- let me talk 1bout IIILLTOP for a morncnt 0 I c i 1 I am not confused 1bout your question - remer 11Jr 1ncc of IIIL TOP Joes in t1 •o directions 1n 0 1c is _ r as I said scvcr il times it seer icd to be a n 1 me thut followcc the nurne o the Artichoke Coorclin i tin Cor unittcc ·- security 1nd C For a whi nd thr medics woulc jCt to Jcthcr to talr 1 Jout this yener 1l field o i11flU ncin J hu n in bch wio r Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 137 ' s-e - c c 11· y in New York and being 11 __ c -'- -- - '- • -- • - · -_ • I' - • ' ' i 2 organi za t io So when you say did it involve hu nan experimentation ii i I' I' ut I can't remember that 6 s_occifically 7 l ' 9 It is also quite possible by the way that what I im ta 1'-ing about as 'IILLTOP· g 'some' r s·e J a Hvitrve · in t ew - Yo·rti un qc n·- 1 1fdty ua1 i' C lO j 1 I - J I 1 an t to 90 off the record Discussion off the record J l e 1 Inclu led in these 3ctivitics there were Dr Gottlieb so - 1c hu 7 ln cxr crii7lcntution J- ject invulvinCJ LSD Mr -1c 1x· cll as an open rncc ic 11 research pr o- 'i'o the best of your kno ledge ere there i1 L I r' 17 any dc i tlis or injuries rcquircing hospitalizatjon involved i i 1 th it project To the best of my knowlcd9c no Dr Gottlieb 0 C' i-lr i·lux1-·e 11 3 8 t C There is a reference in an an lysis o which indic itc •l • that '- HILLTOP •luS trilns errc l to TSO in 195 J I u ' 2 · · Docs thilt help you at all in rccallir g how it fits into the -- Dr l 'C 1c c t i f --- iC f •· i 't is I -e id that sor iewhcrc in the p 1pers yuu hdpful - _ TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ET 0 0 _ 0 e l 0 C l 1 3 I1 f it - u x ·c l l ii I' D - ll 2 I · 11 1 Gottlieb ow is it helpful It is helpful in maldns r re - enber the • succession i Ii s II G I _ J 9 l j C J J l e 0 i 1 · 1 ' ' i- r _ • 1-' il - well 'ou mentioned - - - · hi ch we iscus e l 1n its fo eign aspects sor etimc J JO i l_ C in you pl Jc n tltc jHOi OSi'l 1 that l sho• ec you into t e context of the l ILLTO ' evolution L'' ·- - Dr Gottlieb Well my remembrance now is it could be ·· sharpened by seeing the paper but let me try it without · it -- r y rcmem Jr ince Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 _ 0 'I 11 1•t II 2 0 E - 5 6 7 ·Ir 8 I ii 9 I C 10 i '-· lJ C L _ • r__ fitted in the early part of the Jevelopr ient of ILLTOP b ·HILLTOP then moved boCY and focth li II cssentio lly bet ween co 1 onent homes J Dr- a There was a Gottlicu confused per-iod then • 1 r • l ' l fin illy cnJcJ up c1s • ic1s re errcd to before as c1 h J 1c 1 ecolo'J' 1 1 3 a 4 • c -· I Max ·ell 1 nd this I l' funds C n I go off the record here _· Discussion off the record 'Ir l In · l· o x •ell Dack on the rccor-d the context of the MKULTR funding or Janization dic l you have cJny contact with · o llace Lane ch- - ui· Gottlicu I rer icr ili' r Hally Ch m as bein J 1t varioJ tii c -- and I con' t r 1-2ntion those tines -- •u kind of a sta i •- · • 1 1nc thc 1 he left co irlet ly inu 1 •orked for e lts a n L • some on _fa ni ations c h 1t _ c hcJd contracts Hith rcmeI7 r- 1nce of Chan - - - · · · ro prKET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 7hat is t 140 l lr Ma ' - e 11 i d • - • · • •·· r · •• 2 • that was being co cted of Wallace Chan by the Office c i I 1 ii Sec1 rity Dr Cot tlieb I do remember that nut I can't place 5 it in time And I con't remember it in detail or 6 thing but I rcmemDer it as an event 7 Mr t-lax cll a5 a jor Can you provide any more detail on that rr --c-o-rtr±-cb- -- I roncrnbe r 'r ha t you hucl And that h id 9 10 C · L • really more detail than I independently know And I don't re I member h it the end of it was 11 11 i J 'I ' ·Ir 1 1 e 11 Did you discuss the ictivitics of 1- KULTRA a 1d y ill ice Chan 1 ·ith t C presentatives of the Office of Sccurit' -' ' 0 J •' •I 1I - Dr Go tlie i Could you remind me of wh 1t date th it ill - hat time rerio is 11 ir lli X e Di Gott 1 i c It is 19GJ-19G'1 I' l · · It is an imrort rnt thin' I r icntion it hecausc as I solely al1 iost wns involved in this · I li S rcr ic cr iL l ncl involved in it or ly in a supervisory sense t nc h it i • I r 1y rcmcrn n incc o it I rcmernbcr being tickled mer ior - • i e 'J C by • h it I read 1nd I _ 1 $ a 4 _ and those un investigation as going on 1 3 a Y cornp inics were rour u nd I rcmcr iber scvcr il eris - or not in terms of hcthcr h'e were going to pay thi t sort of thing ' JS Oil 7 rerncr 1hcr u period here - Out it is confusincJ to 1 of it I rcr ie nber th it 1 1• 0 0 0 141 r 1 l i 1 Office of s curity 2 JI ii - i t 3 aJ 4J J and Ii ' c✓ preparing to request the tax returns of Dr Treichler ' - 'as 11 I Dr Gottlieb No I did not know that IiI 5 I Mr Maxwell Cun you recall what TSD's response was to the allcgutions and how they were hundlcd within your office Dr Gottlieb 8 I if 9 j My only recollection Wilson my part thut the re we re i rregul-ar i tie anc'f-you no' rnfcn-t Toning· for- the ·· -- - • 0 first time suspicion of personul irregularity on the port · 10 ' ' '- 1 sfa f1l J 0 c_ ---- neither of whom up o f and to I would have thought might get involved in thut or t f' Oh' of ' J · II ' l · I _-_ And I don't huve a recollection of that nd t ie in fc i· nc· 1s thut they ere crsonully doing something with r 1oncy th 1t they shoulu 1't to bcr1cfit themselves L· I Jilthcr that is the inference and this i the first ·' intimation of that that I have hud J r Ma -- 1 •cll _ - I don't remember that ·lh it wus the rcspon e when the alle atio i bc9 in to sur icc as tl ey obviously did l · Dr Gottlieb rcr 1cmbcr only th 1t I I t fantcd to play it absolutely str-1 ight and h J vc it loor cd into und let the chi • • •' fall i S they r 1 iy Did TSO assist in the Office of Security e ' _ i1wcs_ciyutio Dr Got lieb I that M - Max· ·el l The paper appa -ently fro the Of ice of 0 C Security mentions the special sensitivity of Nl SA 0 Dr ti Mr d ·1 i 6 11 The NAS type by the way was new to me I hadn't remembered that at all 1 5 Gottlic Maxwell The Office of Security notes indic it that this was a special sensitive in quotes of Nl Sl and CI i 7 I connections I Do you have any reason why there would be a special sen- sivity c' lbout that Dr Gottlieb c '-· I don't remember any nASA-CI connections light th it have to do with ovcrhe id J ' -ccon11c1iss incc L e 0 ' i 1 C J I I i 1 · · Di- questions C ottlie bioloCJicul oriented research research goin J on or contr 1ctc l out to those comp 1nies and that wo 1s how they Cc' lme into it Mr Max· cll I think it was space-related biolosical l - l j 11 rcse irch· Dr Gottlieb Spc1cc biology yes 1 1 ct I h J d no C 0 - 0 j ' -eclllcctio -i of th it l ncl I had no recollcctio -i of our · TSD h Jvi ritJ iny 'lrHl u c ' rcl 'ltionship Hith i S r- r 1'' 1x1-1c 11 Do you have ziny recollection of 1 hat stci· were followed in regard to the allcg tions that were m ide Or- Gottlieb lo e -lr 1- ix ell 2 Do you recall the rccort lkeeping o l -- ULTR Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 e '- 0 r j1 3 a 4 0 ' t 1 I Dr Gc ittl eb l if you are tal ing about fina nces ii i'I It was done almost cntirc y by I so - ' t Dr have a good recollection of that All I know is that c had an administrative annex to the project that changed a ter the 196 5 6 7 b _ ' · ' 1 ItII I G report Mr i Dr I' I 1C• readings 9 M 1xwell Do you recall what the 196J I G ii a bout the record keeping of • and that we followed that adr iinistrative annex · report said 1-U ULTRi 7 Gotlh--eb that although some of the 1 projects covered under ULTM seePeu to warrant this kind of speci l hcJ dling there ii ·· • ere sor e cw th it didn't an l he recom - icntled that e take those - _ J out o lJLTiv ind handle them by more norm -11 procedures -lhich 0 · ' c clid ind tha t -le utilize the facilities on the id ninist · Hi ·L side oE the H Jcncy r orc thc1n e ere to help 1 s ad 1i nistcr U Mr -la - 1 ·cll l·· Do you recall the criticiso of the record being incomplete Dr Gottlieb Yes · r i i - 1 cll 0 JS I do reca 11 thc1t Did the pcculior circumstances of the rccon l of l·tKlJLTR and the iiver of normcJl Age c · accounti j ruceciures or forr ial l Jency project ri -occdurcs to the best -' ' your recollection P 1a' ze it r 1orc difficult to conduct s i t ion of the ChGn case ' Dr Gottlieb -1 - - 1 • vc i · inve· _ ·· 1 1 o Sccui -ity notes I ara sure they did Do you recall prior to rcacli g th Lhat the Office of Security hu nu Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C000951 1 0 1 · inf i- · 1 G 0 tion 2 ' fund this research E on a nlli1ilier of the organizations whic were used to Dr Gottlieb I didn't recall that at all until I read it 5 6 7 Mc1xwell Mr jl Would i t be unusual for the Office of Sc- curity not to know about entities which the Ag ncy was I using to accomplish its ends in order that the Office of 11 8 i Security-Dr Gottlieb ' - had a fur ction C 0 c · if something flapped or something they could usefully know the background of it J '---- I think that might be unusual because they ' - 1 _ all these cases somebody had to be clcurcd in the orqanizatio 1 1 Vir in almost • I' t And also i- a - 1 'cll Did you have c1ny indic ition th 1t the OEfic · oE Sccu -ity hc 1cl or poscd the use of ·Ic1lloce L ane Chan J j o ·r u consultant fter he left the Agency _ Dr L• JO Gottlieb I really don't rcmernxr that particular int Di l th it come Mr 1-1 i -- 1 •e 11 ur in the papers that were there There are scvP ral docur ients 1vhich I re- quc s te l f ro 1 the AGency whic i h ive not yet a r i vcd ind that o nc o f th c i 1- h i ch ind i c a t c th a t Dr Got tlicb ell I want to comment that often the - Office of Security otljections • ere in the foTT 1 of points they 1 •crc r 1iscd 1 i h c· ' · ·c lc le i ve to t c Jes i -ig f cc cv iluate Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ME C EN 'k'f- roved for Release 2022 02 Q1_C0_0Q95171 g 0 1 - 0 0 N 2 this as t of those and they say here is some inform ition - 0 0 1c · and it is up to you whether you want to use this fellow or II i I not 5 6 i 7 i Mr 1- i · rc 11 To the best of your recollection you don't know how the difficulties with Mr Chan were resolved Dr Gottlieb No nor do I I 9 - i d r _l-1 l s LL_ --0 lv C ' 11 cnrichniu nt 17liSl7lanagernent of funds division of equipr ient 11 1 - foe personal u c wece ever referrred to the Department of J J 1 1· _ - e Do y u have any notion of whether the 1 c 1se of the alleg 3t 1 ons against a n involving p' rsonnel - C know how they arose C · · J JS t l CC De Gottlieb I don't i -er ierr ber there being rcfecred to ·' the Oej1 irt nent o Justice and I don't rer iembcr h it their ' Jisposition w is c ·1 L 1- r -' M ix -cll In regarc to your activities 1n the technical services division do you recall iny inst ince in w li h activit ics about hich you had knowleJgc were r12ferred to the 1· · DcpZ1rt111c11t of Justice uncl w rc then clror icd bec iusc of igrce nients bctHcen Cli -Dr · Gottlieb· - i-lr M ixwell' _ c Go t t l i e b ' r -· -- i • 1- ll -- between the CI and the Dep irt ient I have no such recollection off the rcco rtl Discussion ofr t c record ----- - I h ivc no such recollcctio - - -···· _ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - --- - -· g 0 14 6 e I I 1 Mr Maxwell There is an indication in the financial I N 0 Ii N 2 i c K - ULTPJ projects II J and K operated by the I I j 1 j a 4 records of i l1 5 ii Do you recall what those projects were II Dr Gottlieb I ar i going to surprise you by sayinq that 6 I do recall what the generic nature of them were I can't be ' 7 · 1 specific Dut they were related to gra hic arts r iachincry 8 - 9 ''- 10 I _ • _ J J '• I 12 ii Mr M i we 11 - 1 3 a 4 _ 14 •I j 11 i · •• - - •' • · £•· - Dr Gottlieb Yes it was -- • 1 i i 11 - - _- - - - - - I don't think that w s his title I i · -Ir 1-laxv1ell Let r ie sho• 1 you a copy M 0 0 0 _ Dr Gottlieb I am still happy to be able to get specifi u ci ' 2• • _ about something I Ir l·lax ·cll Off the record 2 Discussion off the record Mr Ma Je 11 nilck •1 _ e 0 1 t c rcco -d Dr o t 1 icb I · o u 1 c lir c you o t c1kc of - LiLTR a loo at 1i l pro1ccts - hi ch were incluc ccl in th box of ma tc -i i l Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 _--- -- - - - pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 147 that was 2stroyed in 1973 If you can I wou d like for you tc - - · atte t to recall if possible the general nature of the pro- jects Dr Gottlieb You mean project by project 5 Mr -i Jx- ell 6 Dr Gottlieb 7 If you can I am going to have lot of trouble I will go dc n them one by one and we are going to have a B r iono tonou -- - - - - - t a • - - - - - - - - - - - - t i - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - · · - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - j l 9 lG 11 Ll DELTA -- ind I am trying to use the whole line of information to refresh my memory J I don't remember don't remember i I don't remember I cton't remember C _ I don't remember J ' Lcl r ic JO off the record for a minute Discussion off t 1e record l ' 1 • 1 Ir -l i xwcll Dack on the record Dr Gottlieb why cJon't you indicate if there ilre iny pro- 0 C 1 · jccts which you do remcr ibcr v 0 Dr Gottlieb 11 right I ccrn only s iy that some of thcs_c cryptonyr is arc fumi Ti ir r • · to mc I know I have heard them before but I lon't associate · · - r_ a n y t h i n CJ 1 i th th c r i • Thc l1erc -- igr1in I i m c little uzzlcd 'hcther I r really ·t nt to -- off the record please -----------Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - - -1 z • · ii - __· - • - -- ·--r l O I 140 0 0 t l ii iJ s - ssion off the record - •I Ii 0 ' C 0 f Dack on the record i Dr Gottlieb j I c ild guess that this one that is c a l l e c f e r r e t l 1 to a psyc ochemical -related research project 1 Project Artichoke I don't have to cornmci t on He hc1ve 'I G 11 I 7 e CJ l c ii J I e ·Ir Lenzncr 'I Ii ii hc1s been shown a typed list of 30 or 40 names I haven't 1 coun te l thc i 1 I Lo 1900 C ' - I latest date being 1961 which 1 s some 1'1 yc 1r s O the record plc sc Dr Gottlieh Discussion off the record LI I - e And they are dated 1950 which wc1s 27 ye rs ayo il' O - Let the record reflect th it the witness Ii I 11 An l I don't recognize the crypts of any of the others 11 1 l·ir The 1 i s t i - ixwell 5 a 1i s t t h iJ t i 5 r C t y J e f r O 11 1e docur icnt destruction list provided to the Senate Select Co -- iittee by the CI rcflecti -ig the docur 1ents t 1t _·erL' destroyed in Januc1ry of 1973 C' 0 ci I Dr Go t t l i e b 0 u was only referring to the numb r I h 1 ·1 seen in the i ock fcller Com r 1ission o 1972 C -- r -la xwe 11 C think the nu ' Jer they use is l il I and h1 • ' e CIA has n intaine l that there were four because they weren' recorus of certain 1rojects or Lh 1t things were double -- COU 1 - teci There re on y 1 couple of other things I wanted o Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 lS - - - - - I - ft f t-1' tf ' f %3Jkf8gM KF I I I 111 • t - lt --• - _ _ - £ • 0 0 0 ' e l if 0 l 2 ·-' c ' he c is - '· I i dication that project No 63 l use of the assistance of a physician iii it if you could co ent in general about the work that he was i performing under HKULTM - 1 0 t · - y · 1 a out in regard to the ·particula - project ii F of K · TM also i wol ved the ' JL d I would appreciate 1 6 i 7 I · ·• - J Dr Gottlieb is being shown an excerpt from the•transcr tion of Office of Finance records for a year in the early sixt I • · ·· Hell •·• · ' •· the individu il to 'hich you refe - here number three w 1s associated with the ULTRJ research 0 program for a L · have here and also in general was doin rcscnrch on C ' LSLl J Do you kno1- · the sul tance of the research L 0 C a - yo u r e c a l l 1 · 1 ' t ha t Dr Gottlieb l 1 C long time long before the irst date that you I can only recall that it generically involved doin0 research on LSD ndminis rJtion to hu i n volun- i 1 · I tecrs in a research setting And it was not covc t research i' 1 ' ' it was research that was open -l r • ·· t-ia -- 1- ·e 11 In particular in regard to this project nd in regard to all of the other psychocherr ical testing rosrar 1s using hUT 1 n volunteers do yo' have any recollectio 2· as to the kind of information which was given the volunteers _· - y r - • · 2 hich le l to them being described as witting · · _ i ·_ · ·- -_ - • I do •t have thJt specifically Dr Cottlieb ·- e ·-·• •1 · a skeJ r ie Lc ore a question that was related to this 2' particular case I You In th i visited this project nysclf seve al tiraes - • · - -· f • - _ --7 · · - i lffiiJ i ffJ a'il tfi JiiitJ ' i f i c ·•·· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 -·· - _• -·· -· _ - _ _ - · - - - - · - R --- -- - c c- - c pproved for Releas_e 2022 02 01 C00095171 l iO e 2 ny re enbrance is that t ere isn' a y guestion th t t c 0 cr al the individual was going to ct was described to thcr 1 · C r · tc carefully the circmnstance of t e e - 11erir 1entation was '• described care ully and they were gi en a medical checkup 5 Discussion off the record 6 Dr 7 In general my re embrancc of this project Gottlieb that i t was a very carefully run project in which the 8 · I 9 Mr 10 Lt 11 C J I 1 ·l 1xwell Do you think it wo ld be an exemplary ex crir ient I Gottlieb really couldn't comment on • I Dr ti recollection of that lonq ago th 1 t L 1sctl 1 ' L ••• C 1 · '-I - J ••• l• 1·1 l x1 c 11 Hould the person w a is 1 ioni oring the i ic ·Jiduul proc uct be il y'arc of the description of s t a i c e to be g i v c n 1-1 h i c h w a s prov i cl e d t 0 ' ·' Ur- r io ci toccd Gottlieb the sul - t h e v o 1u n t e c r s It woulcJ dc cnd upo 1 ho1 1 carefull 1 he the rrojcct l' r Ma X' 'C 11 So i t r 1iqht Dr Gottlieb ihght 1·1r · ax1 ·e 11 ViH ' f -om project to project C 0 r ' J c There was another individual the Office of Finance recor Js who as provided J nd I J -id as wondcrin9 if you could loo ilt uccordin J to f1 nds 1n cas that individual the subject project nur ilier 1 ich is 113 and describe i r can Di Gottlieb The inc ividuc'll nam ca rcr er ber but I ------ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - · - - - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - 0 0 -' 1 _ 0 ' • con't re er lber w a he did or where he did it ind I c n't 0 2 ans er C j 0 t · asn' t 6 u- because I And i t happens to be a period as you know 5 - can't respond to your question dc 't have a memory of what this fellow did f r- - I that in TSO Mr Maxwell The Inspector General's report in 196J 7 indicates that the food and drug report was changing its regula- l tions and there was some concern on the part of the Agency 9 that that would interfere with the testing program that was 10 going on under MKULTM c 11 I remember Dr Gottlieb llr '·1 ixwell Do you recall any ch nt_Jes in TSD pcoceuurc readin that J e I l 1 'I ii p that allowed the change 1n fD regulati ons Dr Gottlieb t • l I don't remember th it I thinr e woulu I ' 1 1 have le•t endc l U On th0 contractors He h ivc to make the adjus - i L ments that they had to in that context '• Dut I don't have lny 1· I i specific remembrance of whether or not there were specific c l 1nq that were either good or b id in relation to the proc ira of th i p ojcct 1 ·· 1 I I• · Mr c· Maxwell The regulations I believe reyuire the notificcttion of the FO of tests involving human subjects 1 1d 11 focussetl primarily on clrugs certified for c pcrimental use ml not for Jcnerul listributi on Dr Gottlieb us I don't think that would h 1ve bo i ercc i bec iuse most of the projects that were contracted out u 1 • i I Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 rJ 1 ¾ttt r r tf ' · 4-· r---- 80 152 _ f 8 I 1 0 I ULTRA 'I to publish to exist in the open scientlflc co unity 2 c j 0 'I 5 G I Mr Maxwell Can you recall which other ones aside I 1 ii from the reL itionship with the Dureau of tlarcctics that ''ere 11 not ex _Jected to function that we -- the Durcau Ii not expected to function that Wily excluding ·L i PPLE 7 Dr Gottlieb 8 I of lartotics wa I remcr tber what thilt is 9 l own they were ex ected il 10 think m _e n e to _t ji_a t w_ru L4tJ i -I- ilA -ne i-bc r- - n y specific ones that were excluded except to soy thilt where the investigators were running ucross information that they U c _ C 11 0 didn't feel should be published or whose puhlication would sora I I J 1 1 II how prcjudic some use we would hi VC or s0 ething like th it · 1'I 'I they 1wuld deal with us privately on it I don't • no· 1 if I II 1- mcide 111y elf clear In other words if Ctn in estigcitor I' 11 l ' j who wos running a publishable proje t ran across in ormotion l · '-·· I l that he had uny reason to think we wouldn't want pu lished h l · would tell us ilnd we would consult about hew that could he II 'J 0 0 L· V C published with no h i - ard to the gcncy's _o lls •••• _ Mr laxwell Out with the two project e cei t ions e pect ition 1- is t he hat ll 1 the other -11'U TK- projects oul l be µublish iblc 2 · - - I • I Dr Gottlieb Since I don't remember what they all w r0 I hesitc 1 tc to make thc 1 t ull-inclusive st itc - c t nt t r iy ir i He sion wc 1 s yes · '--• '•Ir - o XHC 11 'i'o the best Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 re ollcctio did t c pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 153 '' 0 e l project approval '2 projects follow first in 19SJ the echanism described in the tffiULT u Project des- ' 0 '·' 11 I cription and then later in 19G4 '64-'64 the proposal found in the June 1964 memorancum revising the earlier project approval 5 ij mechanism and description 6 l 7 I I Dr Gotqieb To the best of my mcmbrance those pro- cedures were followed 1 l 9 I j Ii I ii human subjects in two facilities one a prison in 1 Ui C L individuals ho previously were with TSD there was testing on 11 J • • 0 California and another a drug treatment facility Do you recall t osc experiments or those rrojccts in 1 l lc rticuli ir Dr Cottl-ieb I' C J · C- in Kentuc - 'I Yes I recall their existence I probul ly woulcln' t recall anything about them ' 1 L 11 I 1-lr -1 ix1 eil Cari you recall what if any i re-screcnin' · 1 · was done in these two projects Dr Cottlieb 0 0 Dy pre-screening you mcwn how the subjL'Ct 1 crc selected -Ir ixHcll Th it is correct Dr Gottlieb I don't have a specific recollection f f f ft th t - i''- i - Do you recall hat infor ation was to t 1e i 1divic uals 1t these institutions ilbout the tcstin j · '• tllcy 1-- erc c oing to undcrqo Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 · · f - _- 80 ' ' ' e 15-l l I don't recall that Dut in the case o - · ··- · ·' · -- -· - - the Kentucky o e I assun1ed we 'ere dealinr with an institu - • - _ tion that had a lot of experience with this ituation Dr Gott i e b 0 2 J 0 and I just ass ed they were following proper procedures re5 lated to the p evious work they had done not funded by us 6 Mr Maxwell Do you recall what followup if any wns 7 performed at those two institutions 1 3 a 4 l- Mr Maxwell lG the context of experiments involving human subjects U 11 c J C e 0 4 0 1 Dr Gottlieb Ii ii i 1 · 'I r· · 1 3 a 4f •• I' C J 11 ·I --' i 1 ·1 - i·lr i·la 1-•cll i nd do you recall n or 1 1ni zatio 1 j ' That word brings no memory of nything to me i Do you recall the - - project in -- named Dr Gottlieb I do not Would it be helpful for me to read that i 11 ' 1·- i Mr l·l 1xwell Do you recall the medical explorations co unic tions organization 0 0 0 1 'J Dr Gottlieb 7hat doesn't recall anything to my mind t Off the record please • ' Discussion off the record Hr Maxwell Dr Gottlieb in order t i -1 i1 ' · '-·· ltJ i' i· testimony I believe you testified earlier thut there wus no oversc 1s research ricrforr 1ed for CI · Dr Gott lieu Ye s · - - - - - - - - - - -----· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 t ·- • to mo li y that a 1 jff2 t '· · _ •· 1 • _ • -· r f - ·1 ·- - 1 ' ' --- · · _ - ' f - ' ' ' _ 8 0 0 0 0 g 1 I little 2 11 r I I L I• c l I ii 'I were given -- and i t was understood there woulrl n' t be a monitor- 1 done 7 I 13 I oren though they were 9 1 10 l ing of the project l i ' r Ii and there were two reasons for this One was to validate the society and as much as we could to make the researches 01- 1 1 ' I rel cvan t to what some Of our en-as-we re- - - - --11 I had forgotten that I don't remember any of i 1 those projects having to do with human testing or even with psychochemic ils -loybc they were but I don't remember th i t I i l' I• j 1 3 8 4 C c they were just given to have the work ·1 11 1 · l Ii I' as · J - -le 11 The document dcscr -iueu Ll1in JS one kno1 in thing and the other 1- nown 1s the - the stu · ·• Ciln you clar -ify those at all ' l' ' - I'·· J · Dr - Gottlieb t h it and I will try Let me see the pa cr -s that re er - to I remember reading those t io and gctti i u blit on ray mcnory screen but I don't thi 1J it w is reci ic 0 0 cncuyh to help you 0 u 0 OE E the record 1 3 a 4 Discussion off the record -- - I think th Or Gottlieb to so1 1e thing that study referred · ' had undertai en is an c1ctivity th it e Ursuccl whc l ·1as in - I grants -- and by grants I mean there were mounts of money that _ society there _ ere I 6 period in the evoluti6n 1 •• ' is that at one 5 J based on ii t _ I 155 i d either started or fihishetl up before or ilftcr th t Vhcn he come to 1c l 1u 1rtc1·s Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95171 'tEI· - MICS pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C0009517 g 0 0 156 1 0 t 0 t 2 ½ 5 6 7 8 9 i'- lG t_r 11 c e 12 0 c '· that · - - - - t-j 1 · - · · - 1 11 I terms of what could one believe wcs uniquely true· about this group· - '··- j • -- - I don't remember Ii any psycho hemical or any other inference this had than for 1 - - · -· ·· · i the operations officer who was working wit to bridge II this gop between his understanding of people and whatever was I unique abo t the I l nd r would only hove to infer fro th i t that the I Ii the same e d in mind I i J l·_ Mr H ixwell Dr Gottlieb thilt some report on p i9e G describes somethin9 as cover grant funds Do ycu recoll wh it that term referred to Or Gottlieb I believe that it refers to funcs th 1t 1 1 ·e r lec1sccl thut might not be too closely tied into the l S Ccific CJOills of the ODP but rothcr ere necessary to volidatc the cover purposes of the humiln ccolo9y fund s I soid as I remember it the ilttempt WilS made to 1· _ l 0 0 0 make those ilS relev int ilS they could be Out it was recognize th it -1e ·1ould h ve to spend some money in t t ilreil u ci ' r l-' ax'--'ell The Inspector Gene rill's report in 19GJ r notes that over the ten-year life qf the prosrarn rnony ad itional avenues to the control of human behovior have been desiynatrid · - 8 by the TSO ana9cmcnt as appropriate investigation under the •1 -L uLT v charter inclu ing 1 adia tion elcctr ic shock- as well as vorious fields of sycholo9y Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 sociology thio- 8 0 157 D 1 pology grapho Jy harassment substances and para ilitary N 0 N 2 devices and rna erials i c 0 Can you recall any experiments involving the se of 5 I ' behavior i 'I 6 7 ii 6 9 II II c I ' i Gottlieb Yes I remember Dr Moitland Baldwin at Dr NII doin J some experiments on primates thot were de 1igned to II ii lG JI _ r i uiation which would involve the potential control o human l h i vior Now the general purpose of that was to provide us with inEorrnaticn defensive or offensive in nature They ' ' e 1- actually came in very handy because you rcrncrabcr of the biCJ J · Cuss t h i t • o s irrcci U wit the Soviet 0 that was rublic knowled9e or not r i r don't -- nO ·I whet 2r Out anyway the Soviet audio surveillance system or susrected surveillance system w3s ' ' floodin9 the Li S E bassy in Moscow with micro-energy and no i··- J one h i s yet figured out what the energy was except that it was intense and can be measured And there was great concern abou n 0 0 0 j c 1 ho1- h H nful this v IS 1 n l I remember l-lai tland D i ldwi 1' s work 1- 1c1s related to that Out He were also intcrcstctl as to wr etlic - • ' -'· o f4i thc -c ere sor ic behavior chn qes in these pr r 1ates which micJh · _ lead us to think you could ake use of that - ✓ '· ii I don't remc bcr anything useful coming out of that o - C Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 g 158 0 e l questions N 0 I N I that they arc questions I 0 thut are essentially do you know ·or X or do you know about but h-ore s eculativc ones and that is can you describe now looki g back over the period of time what effect if any it had on the institutions involved -- and I am thinr ing par7 ticularly of private institutions to have research going on 1I I 1· 8 c-- 9 L0 10 in lividuul or a few individuals would know the source of the sur ort or the source of the interest· for a particular project C C J r _ ' e • Dr Gottlieb ·lhat effect would it h ive in which i ll l woy 0 C Mr l I i l · ii C Lenzner You arc asking what irnr act t his relat ionshii Hith the CII 1ao on the nstitutions that were funded or Ear the research ' 1 l ' l 1- r 1- a xHell I'-- Dr Gottlieb 1 Yes umber one the attempt was alwoys made to rn 1kc the rcsea -ch be relevant for the or _pnization to 0 0 be doinCJ in resµect 0 to its norr ial field of ir tercst a -ic l ex -1 ·- -j 0 L tisc ' And my mcrnbr ince is th i t most of t c org inL ' otions _ e worked with Herc dclishte l could publish r · t ' G ith the arra 19c ent because thcr · · they dicl need to be s itisficd that t e - - _-as·_j f- way of dealing with thcr i that would keep their relationship - 1 CI confidcntiol B lt that being done th 1t - ·us acco npl s - · nu icr through the cle iri HJ of the - Approved for Release 2022 02 01 cooo 95171 ------ ---- - - ---- -- ----- --- --- % 11 ' i f ·- - 0 0 159 0 ' to be 0 2 Mr gives the impression of · ' _ 0 i _ few people at institutioni eing witting of the source of -2 _ t I Ii 5 I 6 I 7 8 I I the support Dr Gottlieb Hell that has to be tu ken in a relative sense I would say for instance thut the ones that I get an awareness und remembrance of there was never n or' uniz_ - 9 1 I C JO ii cicul iwth them otherwise c C l C L I I C· knew what the source of funcJs was 12 I don't sec how we could If you are alr ing about I begin to sense what the thrust of your question is -- the effect on un organization of sort of being misled about the real d 0 C l l I purpose of the work they were doi g my response is that our fec i g was that that wus not a good w iy to proceed th it if the rrinciral investi9ator for inst incc and pcrha s i __ scvcrul cithcr people involved in the work dictn't know who they l r • were really working for and what the real problem was we 0 0 0 ' wcrcn' t qoing to get very much 1 r 1 ' MaxHcll The last qcneral JUcstion is cJo you re- u 0 0 ··• call any oth2r governmental institution opcr itin J in the Self · · C C ' ' l way vis- i-vis the CIA as the Bureau of Narcotics was per - I - •· arming in rcgarcJ to the drug testing I Dr Gottlieb Do you r iean that in terr 1s of t c ind of in i_rr in cmcnt th 'lt 'c had with the i or the kinJ of work that they ·cz -c doing TbP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 ----- Ra _ · - f -- _· _ _ ·-_ -----JI------'-- __ _ 8 0 160 e l Mr 0 You 2 Dr Gottlieb latter The former - - ·i -_ -· N The i stit tion you referred to in · _ f f 4 - _ _· - 0 i t ii I' s I 6 Kentucky ·I forget what the funding arrangement was but it was done through some sort of a cutout arrangement -- excuse me that wasn't true Its parent organization The money was go crnmcnt agency to government agency transfer that is right 7 It was ju t some business that I forget now about making that 9 to your question is no 10 -Ir M i xwcll --0 c 11 C J J ' l e • 0 II ·i I jl leis one r 11 In the Inspector Gcner l's di i ry in re- Mr 1- u 1 e 11 ·15 I think I can stond th if it is the Dr Gottlieb 1- ' 1-lr Lcnzncr I have no objection ii 12 ii - · 1-lhy don't e move to the Olsen case gurd to the Olsen material there an indication that he 15 11 1 - r- 1 · 1· spoke to lr 1-l isner Dr Gottlieb i J Mr l' ax1-1c 11 1 · - There is an indication of a r icct ing i l-i21y which -1r C 0 _ Is this the memo of 29 Janu iry 197' i It is the one with the cryptic co - mcnt s v C _ 1 el1 is h id -lith the st iff a t which cot-onc D -us c1nd Dr' Gibbo - s - C - ' WC L C - pre scr t It O cs on to l ·ndi·catc that at the mcctin Helms h icJ indic 1tcti MU1'at the dcug was dyna it c ilnd that they I u e 0· shou _ld be advised at all t ir ies · it is no clear whether il was--liclr s or - isn r Or Gottlieb It says that llclr is hacl held a meet in i -- - -- - 1 __ _ Approved for Release 2022 02 01 c 00095171 0 0 I ii ii l 0 161 i 0 0 i' ' I 0 i i I i·luy at I sec Mr Maxwell II nd here it I t I is not clear whether i t is 5 l1 himself should be advised at all ti es when I 6 I I Wisner through Helms or Helms i t was intended - · to use it A memorandur i on this was later sent to the Division in TS S Hh1 ctrc rtlv·±-s-ed-t-ha tc Jicre_ h'LH 11 d be no us c w i t hout I· is n er 's rerr iission 10 c - ·-- Do you recall another hearing about that r iceting or ll eei _nc the memori' ndum descrihed in thcit reference J L e l • C C L I do not re - cr her th it Dr Gottlieb ij -icl X · e 11 • r 11 fri E l tr l- I- - X f_ 9 on ·ti ct you _o t it l c__ ccl in- -' C f I _· _• I C ' l l1j I·-_ would the tin e SC Jllence l- e right I Dr i Du t The tine seciuence rni ht be ri ht Gottlieb 1 i 17 thing thut if seine terrible things hoppene _ - l th3t would hring t his on I J ' I don't think I would remember them_ nd 0 0 0 I remember thern_ So r iy ans • -er to th 1t 1- ould bc probJ JI · · C C not 2· 2 -- - · ' - 1' r i-la well Do you recall any concern hcin J r 1iscd to you by ci the r Co loncl Drur t or Dr Gibbons re fl cc ting possibly reflecting e - or Gott licb a y a i 1 Lh i i s r o n a niect ing such os thi 1-1ith Mr I do not 0 l i s tan cc o f 2 5 ye or s I feel constrained to - - I indicated -- - __ ------- --- -- ·----- -- -- _- •· - J iru J i 1 1 1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 or llclr is y i 0 16 G 1 self-administration 0 2 that took you proposed this to 0 your superiors at ·- Dr Gottlieb • Hhcther I I Ii 5 I 6 I I 7 9 -C 10 don't k ow have a general remembrance that they were informed ahou t it Mr Maxwell The hey• referring to who Dr Gottlieb Colonel Drur 1 'ID'id O Jiiit iieflQO i- B f'-- ' proposed i t or not I ··· · - 1 1 -l a-xw-e- l--ch Do- you - recall -spcci fi----ca-l-ty-±nt·crrmi 'ng ei th c-c·· 0 one of them Dr Gottlieb No I do not I have a general rcmer hrance C 11 though t e L l 12 c Il r 0 that they were inforr ed I J i-lr Mc1 wcll Do you recall whether they ap ro i chc d yoi - ii 0bout sclE-2 c lministrc1tion anc cncour 1ged 'I i you to tlo th 1t or whether you succeeded i t to them L Ii 1 L· l C Dr Gottlieb It was probably the l i tter Mr i-lux• ·c 11 Do you recall whether you submitted i 1 ' 1 · 1 written 1iro1Jos il to them in regard to such testing 1 1 Or Gottlieb 1 r I do not recall thut n 0 0 0 - ci c' u -·· l- 1xwcll Do you recall srecificall • -- ap arently 1·u 1 the letters which came down the letters • hich came co- ·n fro ' C the Director Colone1'-- D i m had approved the roposal · ' _ -- ·_•· _ -- 'i ·-' · __ r ·--_ _ - _ r -- - Do you rcc J 11 specifically his approva 1 of thc •i ror osal • ·i ·it - · - _ - • r -- I don't recall t at ut y e ory • e I Dr Gottlieb wa 5timulated by y reading of the Olsen file re1 1cr 1bcr so nethin J about it Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 · - 16J 9 l that he had 0 2 a iproved it - 0 Dr Gottlieb Yes tha he had an awareness and had I' • a proved it and I had discussed i t with him 5 1-lr 1-l i xwell 6 Your opening statement indicates that either sometime during the summer or fall you met with individuals 7 from SOD and that at the meeting i t was discussed hhcthcr --- the re should he a covert i pplication of LSD to determine - what the effects would be on a meeting of someone adding --0 10 LSD to a drink or whatever • C I _ L l l I th t your best recollection a to tirne or can you fix l ' it more specifically Dr Gottlieb l · C '- J Do you recall who was ut the meeting 'J l I can't be more s ecific ahout it Dr Gottlieb I just recall a m1x of individuals bein9 there And my recollection including Dr Olsen is that they i•- 1 · might not have been cornpletely the ones that were at the l·lcutern 1-laryl in 1 rnectin9 but rou' hly the s i r ie mix 0 0 Now I can't testify as to whether the same people were 0 V ci t hcrca C a C s i·lr l· u 1 cll Do you recall Dr Olsen being there _ Dr Gottlieb - ' -·· r- That ·1 my recollection '' -Ir r uxwcll Do yol recall 2- r Ruitt Dr - Gottlieb Not specifically being there ' 1- r 1-1 i 1 el 1 o you recall D 1shbrook being there TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - _ 0 0 0 e l 0 Dr l-lr Maxwell 2 C C t Dr Gottlieb I I i t 5 1 a a 41 C-- 7 1· I being there not have been there I Mr Maxwell Do you recall · Dr Gottlieb being there Again a hazy recollection that he might have been there being there 'JJ 9 Dr Gottlieb - c- 10 c L j - • # l 1 lie was present at all those meetings he was sort of an executive assistant l J think he was there I i 3 a ' Mr MaxHell Do you recall Colonel Orur 1 being there Dr Gottlieh No Colonel Dr wasn't there Mr M ixwcl 1 Do you rec a 11 onyonc e be being the re I L- lt J Or Gottlieb There was a mJ n n imet' J L I thinr - t I '-·· l j ' J I w s there And I think we haven't covere l the whole cast of j L · - lG i' r characters I think thereis another name or two • 7 jJ I i· ·Ir iuX cll Do you recall any discussion at that ti e about the procedure which might be used 0 Dr Gottlieb 0 Not in a detail technical sense cxcc t u C th i - the unwitting administration talked about is bein J the only way to determine that • J _ W S Mr Maxwell I3y_your lefinition unwitting administr 1• io here· refers only to the time r ithcr than to the f ict th it e· cn- - tually it might be -eceivcd is thAt correct _ _ _ Dr Gottlieb 25 Dy unwittiny I r ican at the tir ic it · 1 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 J ' _ _ f · - -· • · · t l g · 165 0 e 1 0 2 it but c j 0 t t knew they might I I ii 5 they And there · · periods that this will be i' Mr Maxwell I I 7 point in the future it would be a good idea that they would do that and i t Wcts agreed upon that it would be done ----- - Yes ' a 9 c the next month Soi fact the agreement was that at some · • _ · - 6 in were no time 10 Maxwell Mr I be within a llncl i t was agreed upon th 1t it would not fixed period of time ij C I 1 1 L V Dr Gottlieb J J J not I ar 1 No the latter I am just saying it as talking bout the absence of so iethin J an l not the · 1 1 1 p r c s e n c e i t a s t Ii e a s e n cc o f a n y t i me f r il e The time I l __ c_ fromc was not discussed at all low would you chc1ractl' rize if you can 1 L l i' J the aC Jreement Did it seem fixed did i t seem cphe eral Dr Gottlieb I had the impression as I tried to state 0 0 0 _ C 1 in 'I rny prcp J red statement that we had the agreement of that J group at su e time in the future 1 of an experiment - r Maxwell r e Dy agreement you mean the consensus of the as there any fomal verification o thot this -· to participate in th J t kind their 'n' ls attcm t to tar e a vote on that Dr Gottlieb I don't remember Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 Ther certainly isn't •l · ·· ·· --- _ ________ · -·-- ------·--·-- g 166 e l ilnything in 0 N I £ I C agreement coming 11 d at the time of the ' I J· i Dr Gottlieb 5 iiii 6 II wi th_in a week of the confe rence7 · - - ½ - - - - - - - _ I Dr Gottlieb I re ally - an' t c - agreement coming testify as to that ·1h iµpened 22 years ago I just can't recoJJcct t h__a 9 II re 1 a ti on ships 10 11 1-lr ll I -0 _ Hr Ma xwell 1-laxwell That I kind of time Given the purposes- which you have lescribetl for the xperi en which I take it was to determine the J reaction in a eeting if LSD was covertly udrninistcrcd whut ' • 0 '· i · l w s the value to be g ined from experimenting with u g our of • peo le who - new thut at some point C 1 they ould be 1ven LSU ji C ii 1 inu sccon lly u group of people a number of Jhor i hut l Jreviously I• r-- taken LSO ' • Or Gottlieb - ell starting with no inform itio -i on the suGject of what would happen to a meeting where LSU C • f wus covertly administered the prior agreement of the people JOuld be to hare th it they •ouldn' t remember th it at lc 1s L r C ' a • hile nd their re ictions would indeed be i rnocent o t 2 - The one 5 that had had it the re was an anc i 11 ary th cy recognize it or not I Sain ½ ' j ifik_ - am not proposing to say that wjs exactly the thinking we had 23 years ago because I don't· ren c1be r tho t srcci fic illy 1 nut th it is the ' lay • · ·01 l · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 167 ' @ 1 respond to N 0 N · - · _ 1-s%0 t ·_ -_ · - _ 0 t has testified that he um -ittingly taken _drugs for the purpose of seeinq §_ - ' ·· if he could identify thern ·which I ta e it was consistent with · ·- ·- f2-¥ _ · - · · · - r_ __ ·- · 5 the later effort to allow or to administer drugs to employee - -_ _ - - 6 who ay be abroad so that they also would be able to identify 7 8 -- '--• 9 -C l j C l l J L - 2 I ii 1 nd this would be a preli inary preparatory step 11 I were I In regard to _the latter comme 1t by coun el the results of the meeting such that it was determined that 1n individual ho had taken LSD prior to the e pericnce i CD l recoynize it '· ' -- Mr Maxwell Dr Gottlieb I don't know _-hether at the time that this 1 · incident took place at that particular mectinq that was c - l ' t0blishc l nut ultimately it wc1s established that it would be L -- very useful if sor ieone's aim was to be able to recognize - h'hc1 he hod been covertly at tacked by this chemic i l we de term incu ' that it would be a great advantaqe to have h i l an e p ricnce % C 0 th i t 0 r _ C r ax cll Your statenc11t indicat s that there was •• an individu il at the·-·· ' meeting who had a · -heart condition nJ ' ·- ·• - • ·-- 1t1· · · _ it ''oS decided thc1t that individual would not be c ivcn I-Sn · · ho r eci ded th it he would not be given LSO Dr Gottlieb I don't re cmbcr that It · -a s cith - - 1 3 a 4 _ r iyself or RET Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 l Mr Mcixwell 7f 3 a 4 l · 1 -r with either Dr Lashbrook C _ l and who should not i I don't specially_ remember thcit ·· -- Ii 'I Ii I · I r1 ftt r be given LSD Dr Gottlieb Dut it 'I 5 H must have taken place i Mr ·lcixwe 11 I 6 Do you recall in regard to that individuul ---- ----- 1- - rn -1 r cr-the- -ind i-v id ua l c-- _ J t ' L • 8 9 I rcccivinCJ it l J g__i ve n LS o or whether there was siraply some method devised to avoid his 10 1 Dr 11 J i· r 1 Gottlieb I don't remember ishllrook· _ - that Do you remember any discussions with Dr lux1 cl 1 1 3' · r was told__tha t___b_e w9_uJ_d no_ _ - _ · as to the method of lo 1' - -•• i 1 · ' Ii the r so to the individual at the meeting I don't remember a discussion of it nut Dr Gottlieb • l ' 1' I my remembrance -- and I think it - us stimulated by what I reod '·· 11 l r ii was 1 l ' that was administered in Cointreau and that Dr I 'I hcid prepared that earlier and that it had - ' n whatever Lashbrook about GO 9amr 1 1s pc1· us considered a drink-sized amount of Cointreau 0 0 C Mr i'l ixwe 11 J' •• I You don't recall though whether th u individual H 10 h id a heart condition -Jas sir 1rly sl ipjied i 1 this roum l of drinks 2 • Dr Gottlieb _ s 1 re illy don't remem er what proccdur · used _ -Ir - a --we 11 Did you receive LSD t 1at evening nut y rcr l 1 · i · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 169 ---------- - - ·----·---- 8 1 N 0 I 2 it woulc be 0 I administered with I I 'I ½ · • 5 Il' 6 Dr Gottlieb Ii ·- - · ··· · - ··t - Do you mean at what point in the evening •• • • •l f •t •·• 7 is that what you mean 8 CJ Dr Gottlieb I don' t remember that -·-- - ' · - - -- -· Mr MaxwelL Were you at hat time Mr Maxwell Or ·· X -· - at all 9 i'--• --·--- 10 Mr Lenzner nut you would have been an unwitting C 11 J L e 0 Ii 12 11I J -j i lj II C subject Dr Gottlieb I could have been I sec the paint in your ucstion whether I knew that I would get it for sure 14 iii I don't rerncml Je r tu lking to Dr Lashbrook 1hot1 t that '- I 1 L I le 11 I Mr Maxwell re you testifying you don't rec ill Dr Gottlieb Whether- I did or not whether we talkcJ 1 lj about th it or- not I Ii nr M 1xwell Do you recall - hether you had LSD that J - C 0 0 j · u C ' i • evcninCJ · i - r · - e My recollection is that I did Mr M 1x ·ell ·lcre there any medical observers it tl c Dr Gottlieb Ii i meeting Dr Gottlieb No there weren't Mr Maxwell ere the only people who didn't receive 2 LSD the inciividu il who didn't drink the individual l 'it ti • ' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 170 @I 0 l 1 3 a I 3 0 f 1 1 t I dis ute that 5 I'•I 6 II 7 ·lr Maxwell we went through earlier was at the meeting where the LSD was udr ii 1 is tcred -- --- Gott ich I don't think I could huve reconstructed - - - -- ----- - - - - - --- 9 '1 10 Ii 11 II · ii J _ -1· that list from memory Out I have seen material in the _newspppers that would in liciltc thut i Lashbrook myself _ 3lllllllla I· 1 S a 4 ·Ii • C · · there anJ this individual who didn't drink that I cun' t 'BS 0 re c bcr his name was there and Olsen as there and one or t d others 11cre there 1- llosc names I don't remember 'J Mr •l - 1 ·cll ' Do you recull prior relutio ships · ith i' L Dr br imson relationships that existc l prior to the rncetins I' l · ilt hich the LSD was given Dr Gottlieb I rer iembcr th it we hild worked -ith hi -i C 0 0 prior to th it J C Mr- • e Did you work with him Dr Gottlieb Yes I think so i 1 1 • - axwe 11 I think he h i c l Jc0 n 1 t 0 r Vi C 1 · S lecausc before we contacted hi he us rnd beli ve there was some promise in it Mr 1- ux1 ·cll is relationship to the _CIA woulc he ·c ' · - - - ' i tlt m · -- _ ·'W' - i - f-••h f - • 0 0 0 171 ' 1 ' G described 0 Dr Gottlieb · · - I can't'remember whether we were actually f• Z P-t f tf 0 t '1 I lj I funding research he_ was dolng --- _the chances 21 re e wercn' t ·_ · f - - ·- _ i_ I just can't remember but at least he was a consultant 11 5 i somebody we went to for advice and lnform ition t • • - J• 1 'I 7 i Dr Gottlieb 10 C ll J I• • ' d 0 6 9 r ' · Mr Maxwell Has he in fact a psychiat ist b·t ··-- Mr ' - - • • • • - 1 - Yes • 1-fox - 'clL-- -Was h e -anH D 7 Dr Gottlieb lie was an M D he wa In allcrg is t he 11 I 1 I11 i - j was c1 psychic1trist lie had had an interestin J background becilu l c had formerly worked in the Chemical Corp i a a physici l think c1s a physic il chemist before he bccar ie an 1- D Hr i ixwe 11 Do you rec 11 his training in j y c i l r ·_ 1 c l C L Dr Gottlieb ' 1· ' i chiutrist thilt th t I remember th it he was iln accredited i• -' - ilS his spcciult1 - lie hiltl p5ychiatric III• 1 f·- puticn s and he had il psychiatrfc practice in Hew Yort • • I '· r Maxwell Din you leave Dr'°' · l Jtar i prior to Dr Olsen's arriving in New York 0 0 0 Dr Gottlieb N Did I pcrsonully I re illy can't rcrn - - _ c lJcr hcther I clic it or Dr 'tashl rc5ok did it lac you been in toush wi_tr ·' ft JZtfflJ4al5Z- I 2 _- 1- i te tor th early tests thilt werl tlone 0 i Jr Gottlie J I re illy don't r r 1e er t -i t - ' fact I I 1 ·· tlo 1't remenl Jer anythiny about the procurement o Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 r - -- · •' · f ' g l 172 0 ·e ' I where l N 0 2 I I or somebody else 1l i I' 7 I II ---- - Dr Gottlieb lie was on his way Mr Maxwell i r-- 10 C l J 1 '_ I J • L' e II 0 1 ' i Do you recall whether the CI hod any connection with thut institution ----s I ' ' 9 · ·- - · to a sanitarium and was to head there 5 1 ·1 6 • · ·· -- Hr Maxwell As you might rec ll Dr Olsen was referred II 0 J it originally came from or whether throush Dr Abramson I N ' c-- • • • None- hatsoevi I rcmcm cr which in- Dr Got tlicb stitution it was after reading something w s Shepherd on Pratt Place in Daltimore I i·ic M iX well think -- I thin that is wh3t it was And there is no indicntion in your memory th it CI had i ny reL i tionshiµ with it j' 1 Dr Gottlieb r-10 1 ' i i ' · '--· l· lG i ' 1 · · Ii '• 0 0 N hich might have rcsul tcd in his -Dr Gottlieb Are you saying before or i tcr the incident 0 any p r c - c x i t i n 9 con cl i t i o n s w h i c h Or 0 1 s e n mi CJ h ' e h i d ' tr M 1xwell After the incic e -it u C Or c ottlich After the incident • I remember th0t I became ware of nr Olsc •s -- a out some prol lcr 1s he_ h id h id before this mce tine I c i n'c remcr i- ✓ G _ he ir-d it fror l hr 1 nsorl' or - hether I hre d l t -om some Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 fi _ · · • · ·· r- _ · - f'--' - __ ____ ' 0 0 0 e 1 - ii 0 r 2 11 l1 · 0 173 I' I Olsen bcfo e -- I ·- the incide 1 t I assume that is what you were talking about - i Mr 'I Ii Lc zner I have one question 11 t Does the Com o1ittcc have any ground rules or policy as to j q I j who has access to this transcript or what will be done with it 6 7 S I -r 9 1 I -- C t ' lG 11 I • 0 '-· C 1 i ·' J Ij Ii I '---· I ' '• Mr Maxwell All of the transcripts -- Mr Le zncr A specific question is CLln cl private ---- -- -Jarty in a lawsuit obfain-fh-is oy subpoena or othcD-1ise Mr Maxwell I don't believe that that is possible The Cor tmittec rules I don't thin address the roint spccificully nut I do -i't think that a private party in la1--1suit can obtair i executive session testimony or hearings of Congrcssio al l · 'I ' 1- 1 ' i I i' Co ' 1i t tee Dr Gottlieb The Freedom of Information Act docs not affect it Ir ' ax1 cll It docs not upply In orccr to clurify the record you heard after the J test C 0 Dr Gottlieb I can muk t lat more S ccific J C 1norc ui ✓ -1rcness fore the incident of any prior proble1 1s in Ur Olsc 1's c 1sc be- I Mr - ax ell r ' shbrook is quoted in 1'0 • the h'ushinc to Post 1s s 1yi -19 th c1 t the suiciJe of Dr Olsen only confin ied e the Ayency cars of t lc potential of LSD thdt Oo you rec2ll it t i1nc p -io - to the cxµcriment of Agency co 1ccrn 1bou L · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 tis -· · - -- _ · 0 0 0 174 ' 0 ' 0 l 0 ij I ll as a concern about a drug this bizarre and llctive in this small - t - - · quantities that it didn't know what the effects would be I And I don't know how to interpret Dr Lashbrook' statement 6 I I 7 Ii I I 1 J 5 E3 I l1 i - I 1 ger y concern Dr I 1 1 I potential for ' as to worse fear3 Confers with counsel I' 9 prepared statement that up to this time given tl e information I' ·10 we knew up to this time and based a lot on our self-adminis- C u J L 0 I L I tration Ii I 0 j J L 1- - terms of rotcnti l harm 1 i·lr j' - we thought it was a fairly benign subst cc in t x1-1e 11 Given the resronsc of 11r Ols 1 to the cxreri cnt and given what appears from the Agency ii records to be a ubstantial concern in the Agency auout the · ' L·· i'-- 0 0 0 r Ii event both in human terms and institutional t e for the l security of the Agency and for the individuul in -olvcd i 1 - could you cxµl in for the recor l the continuatio -i of a -- 1 c ithc - the continuation or the institution of a testing pro- J '-' c C -· gr 1 1 involving covert testing under no 1 1cclical St ' €rvisio wit 10ut continuous observation as manifcste l in t '1e 9urcau • • 2 ✓ L of narcotics testing progr i m - h'itncss cor fcrs ith counsel _F Len ner Let rae state for the record so that ho ever rcuds this trunscript will realize that we arc ausi - J · • c- · -· - - · roved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 g 0 175 @ l at N 0 having been he -e i 2 11 3 0 since arr roxir ia tely_ - - - h-i s morning to rev i e this q ucs tio 1 11 whic -i we think is a most difficult one and a significant o e l1 ii ' for the Cammi t tee to revie'w S j And on behalf of the witness I should soy i t might be I I difficult to articulate at this late hour an adequate answer 7 I aut why don't we go ahead and try And I will fill in thc-sars --8·-11 ---·- --- Dr · G6EtT 1e• --I-tnink th i t num her one the feel ins 6 - a 9 l c - 'J l - C J I e ·-· • 1 1 • 1 tu11c t hc trage d y wou ld n ' t h ave happened That we tr1ed to r iakc a·r1 i re to the Dureau of Narcotics rncch 1 -ii sr 1 tile fact of 11 Ii_ 1 I hap Jc -iins hat -IC - ere luborin J at the tir c under u scn c 0 l - of tre 1en lous ur Jenc -r about getting on -i L this thi -HJ lielt 1 cause 'rle didn't feel that the option of doing no work on it i • I 1 i •· ull ' 'i S an accept i ble one in terr s of tryin• 1 to CJCt infonna io l_ • i 1 was that hac1 we been able to institutionalize Dr Olsen in Ii t'- •· - i abou the um i tting administration Our feeling at the time was certainly changed in hind- l · si ht hen you look al it 20 years later that it was quite 0 possible th t this material was being used i ainst us or 0 c v ci agains Vr ericans overseas at the time a icl t hilt the -r - - 0- c tance of getting this kind of infoIT ution outweighed what · • Js then perceived as the hazar ls I could ta e the r ind of look that says e rol Jably e s 101_1lctn't hi VC done that i3ut tha includes a grea_t dc Jl of hindsight or that it r 1ight hc1vc been i n unwise rlccision to•·· j Approved for ·Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 roved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 g 17G 0 - ' 1 is my recollection N 0 N 0 2 5 - f 1 - · th i t the report - was made to insti- tutionalize Mr Olsen and that that was si etracked · - I - _ _ I don't re er tber exactly why but unfortunatcly and tragically It · •_ j · jl s I 6 Ii 7 i it Wi S · _ ·····- Dr Gottlieb I think the fact was t l-iat he was on his way to that ins ti tu tion __________________ _ - 1--- - __' ___ _ - - I s 1't that your recollection of that Mr Maxwell That he was being institutionalized - _ 10 r--- ll C J • ··• '4 0 C I and he was going on his way back to Hashington I i 12 There had been no earlier proposal that he be institutionalized Mr Lenzner nd second of all I would say it is l · 'I haru1 to recreate I suprose for some of us t 1 1t nren't in- '1 C 1 valved in it _ t_he kind of problems and rressurcs th 1t erh ips Ii C i l J · existed in a period of time when the Korean far L- 1 1' C Or Gottlieb ' i possible as a I t·--- - 0 0 0 WcJS goi -i J on There was a later period where it was result of the information that wu s develo ecl l 1n this hole pro9rarn to brief the President's physician ' several tines about the haznrds that this might represent and • wh it to lo about it u ci L - r Lenzner l nd I take it that the covert application -· of these r i 1terials posed to the highest authorities in the CIA potcntiai thrents which they would feel the Agency's ✓• ' mandate would h i ve been sorely ne Jlected had hey not ru sued this effort I1· 11 · Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 i g i 0 - e 177 1 That 0 it is erh ips best l the date of 0 t which I forget about he cliscusserl th process consequence strengths and weaknesses of the continu- I · 5 r ation 6 the date of that of the unwitting application of t ese drugs 1964 I I don't r no think Hr Lenzncr It was substantially later than that 1 C I Dr Gottlieb I - C - Thnt was when the st itcr ient in the I G report that we talked about later cw me up Mr Lanzner l nd it is r y recollection that the fin 11 ' ' co clusion of the DDP w s that having reassessed all these 0 0 l __ problems iricluding this great tragedy th t w is still in- C cur - bcnt upon the gency to continue to persevere in this drC 1 '- No' I I should 1lso say th it I thin it is fair -- i id - 1 this 1 · that Mr Hhite was dealing I take it ith i test popul ition r ie1y not I Jc currently important but for the recor l -- that was substanti lly different in uality from the people 0 u 0 J · that we Crc t ilking ahout in this other m ttcr That i5 u C to s y if ·lhite was uc ministcring this drug unwittinc ly to narcotics-ad lictcd individuals already the reaction to the - may be I don't know somewhat l ss of a problem than it wou '··· have been to sor ebody who hadn't been addicted •i Dr Gottlieb i 1 I c lon' t think you circ trying to say th TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 J 0 l 11 2 l C t Mr might give ther i 11 Mr i'laxwcll have any I II evidence whatsoever that 5 I different tolerance for an entirely different drug I' I 8 9 10 · · 1_ f- 1- - · · · · · Iill 7_1 • I self ancc I I II l 6 i '1· i c I 178 take it becau e LSD is not an addictive drug in it- that they would not necessarily huve ny different tolcr- --- -----nor that one could argue -Mr Lcnzner I think that is an issue the Committee ought to look into I l C Dr Gottlieb I would say that the only influence J l - ' call 1 -us-1-1isl JCner ally mi9ht be able to h 1ndlc biz 1rrc re- - that par icular factor might have is that peo lc who arc hat J ictions thot come· fror i drugs hallucinatory reactions antl s _ '· '· forth better than thos ho arc not familiar with it -' I I thinJ that it can also be easily said I · thnt the people who arc drug-addicted in the terms counsel used arc by definition disturbed according to the norm of 0 0 the general rorul Jtion 0 c Ir Lcnzncr I am not so sure I could use that ·on c could prob bl • argue about this for another hours - ' __ SCCm i Uut c h ivc alrc 1dy been here for eight hours • L ltl But ' Ct i I - - · _ - ·' i y 1 to c that if the Co ittce is going to mar c black nd f·' _ I I · • _ h·itc jeds1 1o2 1ts o i _t c ucstion that l- r Moxwcll just -i skc ____ I _ t_ _- _ -- · - · 7 · - · •' - ·-' '1 th it rni _J ct be 1 f Jctor that they might want to look int0 _ • - 1 - _ - - 6 __ -- --·- -pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 g 17 1 e I I c 0 t 2 I II Intelligence IIi I s I I 6 I 7- I 8 Agency i general and not only Dr Gottlieb an indent such as this and the question of whether a program which had been going on if at all only a short ti involving the Dureau of Narcotics should be continued for if it has not yet begun not initiated Hr Lcnzner That sounds lir e the issue to me 9 Mr M ixwcll l nd i t w is reported on the same day 10 february 10 that Dr Cottlich and others received letters f 0 c the Director of Central Intelligence on '·- i crucial issue in J determining the response of the Agency to m ttcrs of the mos L 0 Corrmittce be able to determine the response of the Central I Cu that the Mr 0 0 profound importance I would like to go l on ith a couple oE more ucstion J J _ I' to Dr Gottlieb J C-· I' l 1 L t r-- l' j One concerns the letters which you did in f ict rccciv ii ii·I l · J from the Director of Ccntrnl Intelligence · y undcrstandi of the letters was that they were spccific lly not rerrimar 0 letters is that correct 0 0 u ci Dr Gottlic I don't r now how to inswer that I felt very bad when I got that letter and wh t ver ' · -- - _ - · _ 4 - -_ c ill it hatcv r its title is I felt that I was bci r1g to I _ 0 th 1t I 1 1d clone something I shouldn't huve l-1 r -iu X e 11 ' i-x 1 W is this a norm 1l tlesignation · 1 nor • • I - i I I· c 1tcgory of cor 1r 1unication in t hc · gency or in• personnel 9 ' 0 1 2 r ia ers that would N would have I C 0 I effect in I rnd I co ' t Dr Gottlieb I h t I 11 5 i 6 I 7 thi k wa aware of it then whethc thcre was or wasn't · it -·· · Ir Maxwell Can you explain' having seen the terr i r iade ·· - - · • available to the Olsen family and to the Committee and seen • · the notation that this was not a reprir iand letter can you e I i • I I I explain what that might have meant I l 9 Dr Gottlieb t this distance in time I can't I G' 10 can only testify that the letters r iadc r ic feel bad C · 11 ·lr r-1 1 well I would like to call your attention to J _ 1 - 1 ' e •I 4 a r c ' ora -ic lum that the Gcncrol Counsel r I· J ii 0 ii bc t the incident C lluston 1 1rotc I thin you have that 11 1 1 Mr Lcr zncr I think you took it bad I - ji __'• l i L 11 lG H 1 1- r 1-la • cll I h rnd it to you I It is a ncr ioran lum to the Ins cctor General i• '· ' E '1 ·lr Lenzner Do you h 1ve a puge number on thut r l·lu i cll Defore we 0 0 0 u C • go on to that let r ic no e th 1t J the nc orundura hich I referred to previously was a han - - ritt c11 r 1cr 1or-311Ju n o r- r- • ' 2 Jlelr is doted 10 Fc Jruary 1 1hich notes the fol lrn-1in•J l'lcusc hand carry to-- c1 beon-s1--Dru -Go ff1icl hove thcr i --1 ·_ note having rcu l and return to for eyes only fil T s j1 3 a -·1 ire no ' -- not·· is underlined -- rcprir wncs a nc no pi r-sor c1i TOP ---- - --t C '° '-' 'Oj pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 0 0 0 e ' 18 1 And it 0 2 ·- -- f- i 1- -ti-t -0 - s - -_ The contents of the 'letter -- • ·· J - - - · C 0 Mr Lenzne -- - ·- - no objection to your doing this · · - - Dut I don't understand the purpose of it The letter speak for itself You are just taking up a lot of time The let t t 5 I 6 -I are in the file I don't see why we have to read everything the record I I 10 I person il from the f to Dr Sidney Gottlieb Chief Chemical Uivi io J J l d G I would like to have it in the record 9 11 '·· Mr 1-laxwell •1 I I Ii i1 •I i JV •' ii i The letters from the Office of the Director ire mcirkct l Office of the Director dated February 1 Techniccil Services St iff lJea r - Dr Gottlieb I personally r vicwcd the Eiles 1 l your ffice concerning the use of a c rug on i i un itting Jrc I ii In recomr 1ending the un ittin J l plic 1tion of indivit luals I F 1 of the drug to your superior you arrc1rently die not give c I' 1- sufficient emphzisis on the necessity for medical coll ibor it ·' and for proper considerc1tion of the rights o the individL - 0 0 0 to whom it w is being adminis tercd L1 This is to inforn you - thut in r iy opinion you cxcrci ed poor jud Jmcnt in t is c is Sincerely -- signed 2 · I Mr Lcnzner What arc we loo g for now Mr laxwell 8 - Al in W Dulles Director The mcmor Jndum for the Inspector Gener ubjcct Frank R Olsen datctl 4 January 195 Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 T c qucs ---t r Z' 1 J - - ' 3 ' · g 1I G 'I l N 11 0 2 I _ I 0 t Services were C fice of Security ·- · - - - _ _ _ · -- - -- · es onsiblc for this forr 1 of cxperirne tation - - · -· Can you give any indication s to why he would believe t at these were the responsible branches in CIA for this for _ ·-··· I c 5 I expe r imen ta tion rather than the ' echnic_al Services staff ·_ ·· - i i 6 7 Gottlieb Say that once more Dr Mr Lenzner I think the qustion is why did Huston -------- 8 believe - hen he wrote that memorandu - 1 that these offices were esponsible for the test rather than TSS Is the suustc1nce of it D - e Gottlieb It could also mean why we didn't c fer Dr Olsen to them rather than Dr Abramson 0 I l - 1i -1 r r c s u 1 t o f t h c i n c i cJ c n t L n z n c r i s a i 1 Dr Cottl i cb Yes i nd you arc ask in9 me lhut Iluston l i - id in is mind lhcn he wrote that j - r -1cix -1cll Or any cxplanatio 1 you could provide as 'i • 1 1 to why he would say that Dr Gottlieb I ccin't cor imcnt on that 0 0 C I don't ·1 - r J xwcll Is a 9ossilJle exrlanation that c belie · ·· · -· 1ic ·-t • t 1 J t such testing w3s all done under the ' rtic okc group · t i _ -j I involved the Office of Security and the CIJ medical s af - '- ·· '- - ·-· - -- -' f t - •·- -atlicr th in TSS -- L· ·t Lc nner 1 a n g u HJ c o r I· I just w nt to cor unent here tha the C ' 1S - - _i- • · sentence is actually subse uc t ··tftt - fP 2st_ - 18 - 1 the 0 2 concerned 0 0 t 3 1 -1hcn I t I observe normal and reason- 1· 5 6 8 • - --· 10 able precautions ff Then it says II The officers of the Agency charged with responsibilities ·· ·-· for matters of this sort particularly the ccurity office and the racdical staff were not ipvolve ltt ct cetera I 'I 1· 11 1 l_ e 11 c - I 0 I Ii J i L 2 I • 4 C tragedy of this kind occurs why isn't it referred he i askin to Medical and Security rather than simply hanrlled hy T S if _ I ·I •i ii hen I read that I can only speculate that when a J 1 m I ronq in saying that is an alternative woy to I c lS 1 rc id it L' lG ·· I It involves difficulty because the I• 17 1'I Office of Security was ir 1ncdiatcly informed 1 2c Mr Lcnzner That is why it sounds like he doesn't hav 0 0 0 1 ' the right facts regarding this incident if that is what he is · referring to i 2 ·· 1' r 1- a 'wcll That is why Iara attc pting to undcrstanJ t r Lenzne r Out you igrec with rac·· 11a·t you can intcc 2% I - e ' pret it th t way Mr Maxwell · If you interpret the incident to mean Dr · Olsen bch ving h an unusual manner then it would be 2 'i· Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - - W - ·· 'c' f · 1f - - - if' 0 0 0 • e 184 l consistent for him to··takc th osition that the Office of 2 Security and the Office of dica1·serviccs should be alerted at that point rather·than aftcr __ his death -·- _· - - -t ·r - f tt 0 C ·· · f J t -- r1-· '1 5 '· 1 · · t ·_ -- - w t _ - - l tl i II Mr Lenzner • · The _subject· of_ the memo is Frank R Olsen The ubject of the memo is not the proper organizationsl res- - - - I- 7' i- 6 po1 s ibili ty of the drug testing · · · · _ _ ·_ i - • 7 Dr Gottlieb Anyway _rri y_ response to the question is I -- --- - · 8 ' ' don •·t kriow what to say in terms of what llus ton had in mind • I 9 Mr l-laxwell C 10 c· --· t • 11 L ' 4 a 3 C C Just one more question on this mer 10 but in regard to the foi'lowup by the Agency II And that is Ii 11 II in the letter that the Director sent to Dr Gibbons he referred to future experiments hich would e I conducted by TSS The letter advises Dr I 1 1 all approp i te steps to insure a thorough 1 · lS Lt not to the 1 'I I· Gibbons to take and careful review within TSS of all experiments The Deputy Director Plans h1s 11 l r i I been instructed to constitute a review board cor 1poscd of •the ·--- 17 'II II i · appropriate officials from within the Geney periodically to review T S research and experiments 0 a 0 To the best of your recollection µrior • _ sucy c1 to 1963 did board review the nurcau of l ircotics testing progra - i • · ' _ Dr Gottlieb 'l'o the best of my 2i Mr Maxwell To the best of your x no ·leclge was a revil • -1 · they die 1G clone· of the Bureau of arcotics testing program subse uent t 2 knowlc l' e February 10 1953 but prior to 1963 Dr Gottlieb -_ · Not to my recollection • 1' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 f f J f 1 1 - g 0 ' 8 1 N 0 N c 0 2 3 6 7 l-lr Maxwell Ile does not recall That is on Mr Olsen's e I· a 9 L 11 J L' lI' 10 c i v fter the v mount of time that we have spent over the last fe- cl ys d And I appreciate your efforts to go over something which I know from your opening statement is a painful subject i L a death l ' l in tv kin1 testimony and the amou t of time we spent today I appreciate your assistance 'I ' c Dr Gottlieb Than you Mr 1- axwell There were two questions thv t I owe to Wides to try to get suickly 1 ' ' • One is thv t memo which I am not su -c Dr Gottlieb lie mentioned it to me i'OU h i ve seen bc o c I don't sec that C 0 0 there wos ony more cor uncnt on th i t u c one that I thought he was Because this w s not going to show me It w 1s 1nothcr '' r 2 _ - ·'· one on the FDI Mr Lcnzner Do you want us to look at that first Why don't you look v t that It is l memo fo ·ur Si ney Gottlieb Chief Technical Se -viccs Division ' fro n Roiac_ha ri l' 'bq er Chic Special Oµcrations CI St«ff Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 f -ted 186 - 1 2 16 I' r 5 i Mr Maxwell You have no recollection it all about that 6 I 9 cD 10 • Obv_i_g_ l_s_ly __c_oming __this ___w__ay_ i t had t o- be an opera tion connected with the t-' KCll 1 0S program Hr Lenzner l ' Ii Ii Dr Gottlieb No not about Where it was or who it was 1 against I it is accurate That is an assumption and I wonder if Sec if you can remember your results be- cau e this 5econd paragraph indicates that the 1 i1 II• rcsu 1 ts 1 e re disse 1ino ted at the highes level of the intelligence cornr 1unity • ' I on' t kno· o lot about C l OS except wh it I h ive reo d 1n the press but Iara not sure the information they were o tain- t in J ecess rily was important for the highest level of the - I _ intelli9ence conr iunity 1 Ur Gottlieb I said what I did only because Ober was C 0 involved in tSCll 05 0 u N Lcnzner W is he involv d in other things too Dr Gottlieb Not to my knowledge - - ' 1 11 J Dr Gottlieb I do not r--- '-·· · t ·t-- f- I against a target II of considerable priority that is referenced in that memo 8 Do I i I 1 · ii r C TSO support i - 1 Mr Lenzner That takes care of that I -Ir Maxwell For the record some reports which -er -c ob- t lined ti1roush Ci OS c id c_ o t rough the hi9hest levels lOt only of the ii'ltelligcnce but the H I' Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 The o hcr memo th t t1t1 ft ' ·_ -' - - ' ' _ 0 0 187 0 1 e he referred 0 2 i 1 4 I 5 I 6 i 1 C 0 i 7 - · · ' j i1- § gt - - - ·• · ' of cquipr 1cnt to the Fed- ral_ n ir a· - of r vcstigation I docu ent which Dr Gottlieb is looking at is attached to a · · ·- 7 t- 0- · - -- dated 8 May 1973 And 'it is from Sidney Gottlieb And the cover sheet sa s' ii l nd the ·- f - if - 1j l · _ ii cover sheet il I 1 the provisio I r Lt· Attached herewith are additional explanations of TSD's Up ort to other U S Government agencies 11 8 c- -- 9 CD lC c ·· ' 11 J t · 0 l I l - - 1- C 1 v r r MuX' rell Item i I 1 I· I Dr Gottlieb You arc specifically talking about Item G 1 G which states thut TSO has furnished equipment itcras which constitute an O-V shclf capability to engage in photo and audio surveillance operations which might 1 i i not be known to the Agency • t In one case it is know that a relatively unsophisticated ·I 1 1 · j device w s u cd against do csti tarscts a n B It is a tt chcd to Muy 1973 cover sheet from Dr Gottlieb l1 l 1 - --- l •· - ' Do you recall that r ie o Dr Gottlieb Reading it ye now that I sec it I Hr Ma well Do you recall writing it 0 0 0 ' Dr Gottlieb Yes I recall issuing it let's s y don't now hcthcr I wrote it I The chunccs are the AuJio OjJcr itions Dr rnch would have written it for ·cic _ Mr axwell Do you recall the devici which is mcntionc ·r· · · · • - e in Si ctio · G 0 Gottlieh No I do not r The only associatio I sc is ·ith sor 1· un n r cd transmitters tha t--we proba ly furnished i ' · ••• J ' • - · · · · -·· · r'- _ - _ · c i - x -1 - ' -'- ' • · g ' 0 e 1 0 2 c 3 0 I I 'I 5 6 11 I 7 _ _ - - · · Gadd anything to your recollection ' 8 9 c-c c _ - • domestically or it could mean a domestic problem that the 12 C l 2 l I i i h ii FOI has r M ixwcll Do you recall learning of spcci ic 1 j ' · '- 11 d r• fcrring to an foreign operation but done in this country It could mean an intelligence target re- 10 J Dr Gottlieb -· ·- 1 i Ii dome tic oper ition which 1-1ould be indicated in •I l _ i p Jr iyc p i l i - i1 th 1t I l 1 f · r 1 'i I can't tie it into o rccific pl icc oc Dr Gottlieb time or incident ·' 1 Mr Maxwell Dut this could be either against rnerican 0 0 l' 'i citizens or a gninst foreigners on l r ieric in soil 0 Yes Dr Gottlieb ' _ Mr Lc nzner It is r iy recollection that the wi tncss I• - - has testified _previously that there was an effort made to ot ·• - have TSO technici ns know what the targets ere at the ti e • • f althbugh I guess they did learn what some of thera Zt E J udio I surveillance ·- - ' _ TOP l I 2 · II III' '-· do with a memorandum for Hr Colby fro Identity 73 dated B y 1973 1 which read -c rl Duckett brought this up S iu h•· is very WI com- Dirae r ill ba ill-ndvi ed to •ay he is acquainted with this prograt11 Duckett plan• to acrub it down with Cottliab but obviously cannot do it thil aft4rnoon • 0 • C' 10 c ·I •• e I Thi- is 4ated B May which wa5 the day prior to or SchlaKingor' a reciua t for reports from gency poraonnel •k out l l • questionable ctivities 3 l • Do you 00 11 a submission mod us Carl Ouckett in 2i r spon to the gonaril requaat or ctiviti•• which tl1a 14 Diroctor should know about 0 C •' c l L ' r• Dr Gottlieb I a • little contused b4c u1a this w1s lr during tha poriod when the juri1diction o hat W I TSO was l7 p •ing over to the DDS and T and - l •o on but 1pparently Duckott was heading -- ha was trying to L pull tog th r an ets to thi• kind o ucation • n l your ue - I cnn't re mber d•to lil And I J tion s rlo l ra a ber t the o u7 •I _ ij 7 ·-· C - • • A IA f'O O to Mr Ouckott Or Cottliab I think it I h ln' t rond this And •••n -it - -_ ·• I • -It Maxwoll Do you roT 1cr bor lilubmitt inq I Mr MAxw•ll Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 _- - · · _-· · - - ' - - -- _ · - 0 0 0 190 1 0 the revising it 0 2 Dr 0 f Mr I Dr Gottlieb_ 5 it with Duckett Mr Maxwell 7 After this memo is that what you me in 9 O· Do you recall providing idditional infor- motion for either the Director or Mr Duckett B I don't rem er revising it either 6 -· ' I do not Mr 10 Max- tell That is correct Dr Gottlieb I don't recall it C l 11 J L 1_ J' •• a · ·I 1· I l - Th it Lenz n er Is that memo different fro this rner io is the qcestion I surrose 11 1 J ' 1-1 r II f r Go t t i e b i'·lr i·iaxwell Additional exrlc1natio11s I assur ie so becau e of that not i tion 0 1 hti 1 - J I' i I c Ii L routins slir Dr Gottlic I really can't connect these tvo i1 1 · 1' II' may be I tr - c1 0-·ell The sequence -- · 0 0 0 · ' - - · 0 - - Dr Gottlieb They arc both dated the same d3y 1- r Lcn ner I don't understand wh it Duckett says· · 1e • - ·-t ·· ' he soys Colby will be ill-advised to s iy he w 1s I · - L this progr im e That doesn't have anything to de with- icditional i iforr lation necessarily · hat oes that mean i·· - · -Ir M 'l well The only explan i tion presently - il ailablc 0 - l e 1 0 that Duckett I ' on the kind of support which were being provided by 2 t c 0 information I orqanizations t i that the Director should not respond thut he is ii knowledgcuble about that kind of support until it has been 'I 5 6 7 li cleared I' · th t he 1 i ---·-- --- -t that all of those operations were un crstood and approved shouldn't claim knowledge until he knew all the facts but that -- it is not a particularly satisfying explanation 1 l d - 9 c-- Ii That is why I would like to try if we can to understand whe the r in fact - - 11 10 c · I Or Gottlieb 'i - 11 e i I J l l ·• d · I would only interpret that by saying th it Carl Duckett was trying in some ay to project the ircctor here Out exactly how and what the dctai ls ire I lo i 't know fur 1s I 'uS concerned I was sir iply trying to C J e up with i 1 s l the in orma ti'o 1 that Duckett apparently 1s cd me for •·· • ' l • r i 1 I - l Mr Ha wcll Uut you do not recall racctins with Duckett to 90 over the submission I don't even recall indcpcnd ntly the Dr Gottlieb subr iission itself 0 You lon' t rcc ill prcrar-inc i'-lr- i 1- ·cll l second J ci s br 1issiun Mr e Dr Gottlieb 1 a ·cll lo I h ivc no further questions ippreciatc the coo eration and assistance of Or Cottl·icb i 1 Lh trying L 1y - •' G ttlieb's t csirc LO The C0r 1 ' 1ittec a prcciates Or bt able to be9in rcsettlin j a d ic c · 1 _ i_ ¥i f l J i t it 1 f Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 I • I -· --- ____ ------- -··--- ---- - -- pproved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171 - 0 0 0 192 ' ' e 1 again 0 I 2 C j1 amount of time with members of the Committee Staff over the i last couple of days and the Committee would like to indicate 6 - its apprcc ation for that time and cooperation 7 Nr Lenzner We appreciate those remarks and also allow 8 •' necessary inquiries curing this rcrio of time w th the r sult that Dr Gottlieb has spent an cxtcncc I 9 any Ii 1 a t 5 attem tcd to complete ing us to finish up in this time period I IYhe -cupon at 7 40 p m the interview was concluded 1· 10 c- c ·- J 11 J '-- e ' 1 1 ·' 0 l ii l ii i - 1- ' 11 j il '- l - t I 7 i l ·· n 0 0 C ' • C - - ' l - • •'j •• '' - - e The Co ittec has r •• I _ ' - I' TOP Approved for Release 2022 02 01 C00095171