eclassifi ed Case NW# 7813-11 Date· 8-25-2025 6491 THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION SUBJECT Vladimir Putin President of the Russian Federation U PARTICIPANTS The President Condoleezza Rice Secretary of State Donald Rumsfe d Secretary o f Defense Andrew Card A 9sistant to the President and Chief of Staff Steve Hadley Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs William Burns American Ambassador to Russia Thomas Graham Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for Russian Affairs Peter Afanesenk6 Interpreter Vladimir Putin President of the Russian Federation S rgey Lavrov Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergey Kislyak D puty Minister of Foreign · Affairs · Serg y Prikhodko Assistant to the President Yuri Ushakov Russian Ambassador to the United_ States· I gor Neverov Direct·or of North America Department MFA Andrey Tsibe nko Interpreter DATE TIME_ AND ·PLACE September 16 2005 2 15 - 2 45 p m ·EDT Oval Office The President · Where's the Secretary of State Is she coming oh there h is I was just telling Vladimir thai I passed a i iote to Condi during the Security Council session earlier this week I have to go to the bathroom How do I do this Now I know how to go · to the bathroom my mother potty-trained me But in any event they took a picture of the note and blew it up and put it in the newspaper U Sf C lf r Classified by V Phillip Lago Reason l 4 b d beclassify on 9 20 15 NW# 78134 Docid 34685220 2 President Putin That's not right I_wa t alking with Sergey Lavrov about the need to change this Yours was a personal thing Suppose it has been somethin secret U The President Wbat if it had been a ·dirty word · Tha t would have been wo rse U Secretary Rumsfeld What were you supposed to do hand and ask for permission U Raise your The President Vladimir and I had good convers tion Iran North Korea the CIS_ On the CI S _ -Ne agreed we should have a dia- logue a strategic dialogue led by the MFA and Bi 11 Burns I mean Nick Burns o n our side So everyone can understand what everyone ·wants dispel rumors to understand strategies a nd in t ent ions to President Putin Precisely - We need better coordination and to avoid contradic t ions U e also dis ussed the ·WTO _ I want to get this done I've told my people to work as ha cd as they can _so t hat our bureaucracy· can cut deals with Gref But Gref has to work with · his bureaucracy so that he can cut d_e als_ We need to work on banking civ l aviat ion and other things · The President President Putin · You· have better relat r a with Cuba than you do w ith us They' re in t he WTO 't sl _ The Pr sident Pres i dent Putin Not because of us U Yes this is what you inherited · U ' fhe - resident We rJad a good tal k about China a philosophical discussion But we both have good re lat ions with China _ resident Putin We also discussed Iran - ·Foreign MinistE - Lavrov · We discussed only Iran _ Secretary Rice Yes we h d a good extensive-discussion of Iranian matters · while you two wen' ·i-alking We agree tho t no one wa nts Iran o have nucle r we apons and that we need to do ever thin to avoid nucle r weapon in- -Iran O r c6ncerri a ·Iran's ability to 'reprocess and enrich It · is very important to come to place where Iran· can't enrich or reprocess 7hat a NW# 78134 Docid 34685220 3 GECRB'f would be dangerous and could be turned to a military program we· made available to the Russian our briefing on weaponization President Putin I've read it U The President Vladimir said he wanted to have his experts take a close look to get a· sense of the reality of the · document I t o ld Vladimir that is fair · Hadley can you make that happen Secretary R ice President Put in experts to meet We can arrange an exchange of experts K t This is why' George mentioned the need for Secretary Rice Let me mention one other thing The Russians believe the time f6r referral hasn't come - I made the point that it is important that the Iranians paid a price for the way they have acted · The R ssians have some creafive ideas on how · to prevent the Iranians from developing an indigenous enrichment or reprocessing capability 1'S l President Putin Sergey has laid out our idea Our concern is that immediate -referral will lead Iran to taie the North Korean route If they are indeed striving for nuclear weapons then we will have lost control over what· is happening in Iran The_n we - need to do so ething What Strike _Who dqes that Where What targets Are you sure of the information you have It's i mportant that we build a basis for our position But I agree with George If Iran violates irit rnatiorial law as just formulated here then we have the right to bring this matter io the Security Council The President It's not only international law They've agreed to the Paris Agreement _It makes me nervous when they agree to' somethi g and then walk it bac It's their mentality I don't understand in agreeing to something but not meaning it We · n ed to get some s nse about this - · ts t · President Putin We won't be able to·read their minds The President We don't need to read their minds We just need to see how they act Vladimir met • with the Iranian president and he gave me a description of their talks -SBGPE'I · NW# · 78134 Docid 34685220 OBORD'f 4 President Putin The agreement you mentioned wasn't an agreement The Iranians say they took a voluntary step on the morac·orium The Pr si ent That's an interesting q estion We believe they made an agreement with the Europeans and so do the Europeans They said e a ree to this Now they're sayin th y didn't agree but the Europeans thought they had It's ·hard to fathom the mindset of a country that agrees and then-doesn t mean it agreed That makes me pervous · We dori' t have any contact with them so we have to rely on others to keep the weapons out of their hands We need to discuss how to achieve this ffi1' President P tiri and uneasy ' SJ The President I 6ad an uneasy conversation with him lengthy How long U President Putin One hour twenty minutes I told him if he didn t continue negotiations he woµld drive his country into a corner and isolate it How would he get out The ' President· They' re testing and probing They are looking for a weak link · Germany seems to be the weakest link in the EU-3 so they _turn there Then hey turn to · _ R ussia I understand they are the new guy on the block that they have a new government But· it's the same group of unelected mul lahs who are making · the decis i ons He needs to know the parameters he can move around in or we are going to face a nightmare The mi li tary option stinks but we can't take it off the table Sharon is thinking about the military option · If · you or I were Sharon we'd be thinking about the milit ary option Iranian nukes really scare the Israelis Diplomacy must work That's an important poi nt to keep in mind If SharoQ feels he needs to trike Iran all hell will break loose I'm not saying it ·will happen only that the most like y military reactions will c ome from Israel - President Putin But what will they target 's l The President If they think there's enriching at Natanz that's one But we aren't doing the targeting for Israel· ' 'SJ Preside Putin But it's not clear what the labs have where the y are Cooperation ·with Pakistan st ill- exists NW# 78134 Docid 34685220 5 The President · I talked to Musharraf about that I told him we're _worried bout transfers to Iran rid North Korea - They put A Q Khan in jail and some of his buddies Under house arrest We want to know hat they said I keep re inding Musharraf of that Either he's getting nothing or he's not being forthcoming · President Putin As far as I ·understand they found uranium o f Pakistani origin in the centrifuges Yes the stuff the Iranians forgot to tell the That's a •violation The ·President iAEA about President Putin · nervous it was of Paki tani origin · That makes me The President President Putin It makes us nervous t oo Think about 'hs us · U · The President We don't need ·a lot of religious nuts with nuclear weapons That's what Iran has running the country t s t President Putin I have the sense they have ade a decision I mentioned this to· George earlier They · made the point that they want to continue negotiations with the EU-3 That's positive CtS The President We' re making progress on safeguarding nuclear sites and · in che program to decommission weapo n s systems I get pressure from Congress all the time to keep these programs moving forward - President Putin We have a simple and c lear position We are ready to continue on a reciprocal basis When our experts visit American sites they are brought to a certain point and told · they earl go no farthe r We wili reciprocate a _n d decide how far we will allow each other to go We need to look a this S l The President Is there a problem Don Secretary Rumsfeld Not with us National Security Advisor Hadley U U It's mostly DOE · U Secretary Rumsfeld We do not make weapons or dismantle them We · just shoot them or just prepare to shoot them NW# 78134 Docid 34685220 ODCRE'f 6 The Presid nt So e ne d to c eck with another guy Bodman U Secretary Rice ·The President We are prepared to r cipr6cate U We need to have the same standards U President Putin I hear you are developing·a small nuclear charge It will al ays be tempting to use them ts The President- _weapons You are ·accusing us of building small nuclear Secretary Rumsfeld I talked to Sergey Ivanov about this We re talking ab ut building small nuclear weapo ns We are sking Congress · for permi ssion to take l rge dirty weapons and make smaller ones So many people are doing stuff underground You can't get theM with conventional eapons But we haven't gotten Congress to agree S The President _ Rumsfeld just gave away all our secrets President Putin I read all t hose secrets on the Internet I also read how to make an A-bomb· - The President ·We need to keep quiet U President Putiri ·The ways and means of using these n clear arms changes the psychology of countri s with nuclear weapons Their · use becomes possible and if itis ju t a little smaller or · a little lar·g er who will care That makes a difference -l°'sJ · ' Secretary Rumsfeld • You ha ve made the same argument on small nuclear weapons that Te·a Kennedy makes The President ·That's about as big an insu1 t as we can make Should we discuss North Korea Our position is simple No light water reactor period · If -we stay together we can get the deal done · China understands and accepts our posjtion · So does Japan You can't succeed in 1negotiations it you are negotiating with yourself If they · get the same message that will be good Otherwi se nothing will get done President Putin · Our positions coincide The North Koreans huff and puff th y walk in and out but our positions are th same and we don't want any dents in it NW#_ 78134 Docid 346852 0 · · aceRE'i' 7 The Pre sident falling apart It's just a matter of time Their economy is President Putin They are putting toge ther an economic r eform· program · along the Chines model · The President They've put together t en reform programs and it' s getting worse and worse I fe el sorry for the people of North Korea They are starving people to death I t' s pathetic pathetic ex·t rernely sad They' re isolated 't President Putin When I vi sited North Kore a on the way back even the secuiity guards said they ever want d to go there again The Presiden t I bet e ven s ome of the North Korean guards wanted tci take · off with you to get to the promised land President P tin No they di dn t There miy be i lot of nuts there but not -everyone is I used to be a -member o f the Communist Party I believed in the ideas of communism I -was prepared to die for them It's a long · road to inner transforrnatio People are limitei to th cubic l e they live in And many are sincere in what they believe The North Koreans live in more seclu i on than we lived in They are more isolated than the s·oviet ·u nion was under Stal in The overwhelming number a re prepared to di e This is not East Eur6pe o r East German Fo r any serious change in mindset there needs to be rapprochernet1 t between the · North and South · The President That' s right U President Putin When I fi rst visited Israel it was quite a revelation r · was told it's a hostile · country and what I saw was totally different It takes time · The people in the North need to see what is happ ning i n the South · · That will make a difference We need to engage them in negotiations in this · light The Pres ident Agree I recommend you read this b ook on Alexander II It's a good book Who' the author U Secretary Ric e Pres ident Putin NW# 78134 Radzhinsky U Yes 1 ·he's a good storyteller Docid 3468522 0 U • SBCR 'l' The President It's a really good book U Foreign Minister Lavro v Just o n e last thing we have a joint eport on the new •Checklist · U The President Okay We have to check o ff on the new Checkli s U · President Putin Fine U End of 6BCRD'f' NW# _78 1 34 Docrd· 34685220 Conversation