EYES ONLY DO NOT COPY _ LIMITED ACCESS 2470 leclassified Case NI I # 7813 Da te 8-25-2025 MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION SUBJECT Meeting with President of Russia PARTICIPANTS United States The President Bill Burns U S Ambassador to Russia Condoleezza Rice Secretary of State Stephen Hadley Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Judy Ansley Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Regional Affairs Nik Sorokin Interpreter Russia Vladimir Putin President of Russia Sergey Lavrov Foreign Minister Yuri Ushakov Russian Ambassador to the United States Sergey Prikhodko Foreign Policy Advisor Igor Nev erov Note taker Yuriy Gariyev Interpreter DATE TIME PLACE AND U April 6 2008 10 00 - 11 00 a m State Residence of the President of Russia Bocharov Ruchey Round Room Sochi Russia President Putin Once again I'd like to welcome you all here We have been preparing for this -meeting and your visit not only for a long·time but quite intensively And this work has been based on proposals from Condi on a strategic -framework for our relations I believe this is a go6d aea Of course certain differences exist between us We know about them but it's · important to · cement the positive achievements - This is the way to go SRH LIMITED ACCESS Classified by John I Pray Jr Reason l 4 b d · Declassify on 4 7 18 CAUTION A Memorandum of a Mee ting Conversation MEMCON - is not a verbatim· t ranscript of a discussion The· text in this document records the notes and recollec tio ns of NSC pol icy s taff who attended the meeting and memorialized the conversation in written form An interpreter facilitated this c onv ersation differences in the exact meaning of _ph rases NW# 78134 Docid 34685227 Dif ferences in interpretation may r esu lt i n subtle 2 Back in 2002 we signed the ' Moscow Declaration and if today we are able to submit a document for agreement -that is the right way to go· The document we' re wo rking on today sums up the positive achievements of the las·t few years At the same time the agreement reflects oui disagreements but does so in an open and tra_n sparent· manner and · reaffirms our willingness to work out these differences · AA It is ·natural _that ·o ne of the most difficuit issues is missile defense There hasn't been any major progress here however I do take note that our· America n partners are frankly and openly looking at our concerns We realize the most important thing is to ensure transparency and ongoing monitoring of· sites i 'n the Czech Republic and Poland When Condi and Secretary Gates were in Moscow · told them it's very important for us to - see what's going on in those sites · every day and every moment I've told that to the Czechs and Poles as well It's not about any infringement on their sovereignty It's natural that we see what's going on and whether it's targeted against us It' s that simple The military shares tl is yiew ·even the u s military I won't go into details let the experts · go into that The · fundamental issue here is whether our experts have full· access to the sites or are just stationed at the embassy and need permission to visit the sites from time to time And what is also ritically important is for our experts on both sides to expand exchanges and deepen their cooperation I think we ·should not give up on _this 'idea especially since there ' s intere s t about this by the U s· rn i litary At the same time we understand that elements of the third site have riot just a · regional but a global dimension t'S · · A couple of words on START there is a section on START We discussed this with our U S colleagues in detail and I believe there should be a certain understanding of our concerns It is clear that withdrawing from any kind of controls on nuclear warheads is a dangerous thing to do The President we need to work on that I'm concerned about transparency on what looks like a nuclear launch and everyone panics We need to work this out Let me just say I understand your ·concerns i'G l President Putin I ·think this has advanced with us but with the Chinese we have no such agreement They refuse to agree on more notification of launches 9 S CR f l'1 NW# 781_34 Docid 34685227 ·I 3 The President Yes they'll be dangerous in a few years President Putin Mr Lavrov is working on this with them but there is no do9ument yet But it should be clear t hat in our ·relations with the U S the issue is quite clear too A missile · launch from a submarine _in Northern ·Europe will only take six minutes to reach Moscow The Pr sident I nderstand U President Putin And we have established a set of response measures -- there's nothing good about · it Within a few minutes our entire nuciear response capability will be in the sky The President I know U President Putin And if we talk about other oceans- we have to calculate the missiles It's a very complex thing other opportunity to destroy Bin Laden to find a solution ' sJ launches from areas of traj ectory of the I realize there may be no in Tora Bora · but we need The President Some think it's an important tool but I unqerstand your concerns about sending the wrong messages I don't want to put someone in quick response moments where the whole system is to react That creates the possibility for mistake I agree with you on that President Putin I believe that in spite of all the difficulties experts can find an agreement but it's a matter trust We also realize that some counterterrorism operations may be launched and the services don't disclose until the last moment but something needs to be worked out · t'S1 of The President I'm worried about the next ones who will come to power We need to work something out while we have an open · rela t ionship so the next ones don't overreact That's why this I agreement _is very important Secondly we got the 123 agreement that's very good Foreign Minister Lavrov We don't have it yet we will U The President I understood it would be signed by the end of April On CFE hopefully we can help you on the i s sue fully understand· what you said at NATO Your logic is very clear We talked in the car about sending the treaty to the Senate and being the_ first to ratify I don't want to drop it in the s e g i iii NW# 78134 Do c id 34685227 4 f3CRB'i middle of a political firestorm -with a l the Presidential politics I don't want Russia• to become a campaign issue relationship is too important The On missile defense I think the thing that will intrigue people is transparency and confidence building measures and the idea of exploring a regional missile defense sys em where Russia will benefit like everyone else I think once the government becomes convinced · the system isn't aimed at you Russia wi ll see a regiorial system can deal with so me nut in the Midqle East · who might get a missile with a nuclear weapon You'll see the •system canno_t possibly intercept more than one or two missiles You have a lot more than that Anyway that's what confidence is all about I' il say to the press that you don't like the idea of the Czech and Polish sites It's · importa nt people know there's s till disagreement on that but its important for our people ·to see we're working through an agreement based on transparency and true confideri'ce building measures The reason I think it's important is it will cause a future u S President to have_ to work with Russia We're setting the stag for creating the conditions that will cause people to -work in the framework we've set up There needs · to be ·a path forward for better relations with Russia I don't · want -a U S President to come along· and say we don't need relations with Russia I think we do and that's really _the reason why this is important and why I appreciate you meeting us President Putin What you've just said is very important Ail the preceding decades the world was a safer place because there was a certain balance in place And the m j 11 tary has · come to me now they tell me the ·following · There was the balance and t he threat of Mutual Assured Destruction Now · t he Americans are going to build a missile defense umbrella and have the feeling that they are invincible What should we do Either create the same -umbrella or our own strike systems to neutralize their defenses Creating a missile def nse · system is quite expensive It's simpler and cheaper to create ·a new strike system which would overwhelm your defenses And they're already coming to me with proposals t lat strike me as very barbaric · When I read them I'm horrified And not building a platform for our cooperation on this front we' i e forced with this type of arms race S The President That's why this is so important You won't be comfortable until we can prove it · to you Our intention is one 86€ '1 NW# 7813_4 Doc Id 34685227 5 or two single launches to counter a North Korean or Iranian or whatever threat emerges We need to calm your experts down by showing them the truth That's why transparency is important My vision is a joint operation That's what this sfarts hopefully · f-e President Putin Okay Now I'd like to repeat what I said to Condi and Gates in Moscow on NATO enlargement It won't be new to you •and I don't expect a response I just want to say it out loud I'd like to emphasize accession to NATO of a country like Ukraine will create for the long-t erm a field of conflict for you and us long-term confrontation The President Why U President Putin Seventeen million Russians live in Ukraine a third of the population Ukraine is a very complex state This is not a nation built in a natural manner It's an 1 artificial country created b ack in Soviet times Following World War II Ukraine obtained territory from Poland Romania and Hungary - that's pretty much all of western Ukraine In the 1920s and 1930s Ukraine obtained territory from Russia -- that's the eastern part of the country · In 1956 the Crimean peninsula was transferred to Ukraine It's a rather ·1arge European country built with a population o_f 45 million It's populated by people with very different mindsets If you go to western Ukraine you' 11 se·e villages where the · only spoken language is Hungarian and people we r those bonnets In the east people are wearing suits ties and big hats NATO is perceived by a large part of the Ukrainian population as a hostile organization This creates the following problems for Russia This creates the threat of military bases and new military systems being deployed in the proximity of Russia It created uncertainties and threats for us And relying on the anti-NATO forces in Ukraine Russia would be working on stripping NATO of the possibility of enlarging Russia would be creating problems there all the time What for What is the meaning of Ukrainian membership in NATO What benefit is there for NA TO and the U S There can be only one reason for it and that would be to cement Ukraine's status as in the Western world and that would be the logic I don't think it's the right logic I'm trying to comprehend And given the divergent views of areas of the population ·o n NATO membership the country could just split apart I always said there's a certain pro Western part and a certain pro-Russia part Now the power there is held by the -pro-W stern leaders As s9on as they came to power they spl it OEC 'l' NW# 78134 Docid 34685227 6 within themselves The political activity there fully reflects the attitudes of the popula ion The issue there is ot accession to NATO but to ensure the self-sufficiency of Ukraine Also their economy should be strengthened 'So Seventy percent of the population is against NATO Condi told me in Slovakia and Croatia the population was opposed at first and they're now in favor What we are against is Ukraine's accession to NATO but in any case we should wait until a majority of ·the population is in favor then -let them accede not vice versa t S l Now with Georgia they believe with the shield of NATO they can restore their territorial integrity Is this the right way to go to spread NATO's military umbrella and let them start military operations in Ankhazia ·and South Ossetia Guerilla warfare will start there as in Afghanistan Will NATO go to war there Of course not The people in Georgia should be forced· to resolve their internal problems by other means They wi l l do it if forced to There are ethnic problems there tha_t have lasted for centuries We're ready to help them restore thei r territorial integrity but _in ways that make the small ethnic groups feel secure But if they scare people with the thr·e at of NATO coming there i t won't work They won't be able to do it anyway _You'll see people coming down from the mountains and shootin g in every direction People dressed like those who danced for you last night Russia knows this well and has been developing friends there When war was here 10 years ago Chechens ceased their operations· against Russia and came to fight there They played soccer with the heads cif Georgians One of their leaders two years ago we eliminated him but there are many more there We didn't send them there but they were all here when the war started Georgia should be caused to address this issue by peaceful means Letting them into NATO will only encourage them to address this by military means taking up arms And for Russia there is always the threat of new military bases and weapon systems in the proximity of our borders This is pretty much· our argumentation against th is development I don't expect a · reaction · The President One of the things I admire about you is you weren't afraid to say it to NATO That's very admi_rabie People listened carefully and had no doubt about your position It was a good performance NW# 78134 Doc Id 34685227 7 SECRE'f' President Putin I would add another thing now I do not rul out that Russia-NATO relations could improve in the future along with U s -Russia relations The President What I'm concerned about is U S -Russia relations won't get better than _what you and I have · History will show it's very good I'm not sure about the next group -not Medvedev but who ollows me I hope you and I can set the example for · how to _w ork through problems · So President Putin I agree What I mean is if there is such improvement then many of the problems we have concern with now will be perceived differently in the future I think ceitain issues don't need to be rushed Now a couple of words on the peaceful nuclear field Here we · need a framework an inter-governmental agreement _You wrote ·in your letter that such an agreement will be signed · St The President It will get done before your presidency is up U President Putin Congress Maybe on your side you could work with your U The President received 'SJ We want · to do it now I think it will be well- Secretary Rice _ We needed to resolve an issue with Iran I think we've resolved it · We were concerned we would 'have had problems with Congress President Putin Everything is under control there sometimes there are instances of cooperation they're trying to pursue in a · clandestine manner that's not apparent to the government We will find them and they will_ be punished The President Secretary Rice Where is this being done U Arak U President Putin There are peopl e willing to earn a bit of money on this but we identify those cases NW# 78134 Docid 34685227 '8 The President I tell people on Iran your plan was very ingenious The leaders say they want civilian nuclear power we say · Fine · that's your right Russia says Here's the fuel therefore you don't need to enrich If you do it shows you don't want civil nuclear power you want more People say Can you work with Putin r say Here's the example He took the ·· lead on Iran and I followed It was the right thing to do President Putin That's what I told them in Iran when they said they were building a new nuclear power plant and they needed fuel · I asked when would they complete the plant It's a longterm project We've been building Busher for 15 years I said You won't complete a new plant for 15 years so why are you building up enrichment now · The President ·You and I had a conversation about the S-300 and you said you'd wait to see how they behave a conditional sale and I appreciate that President Putin We have a contract with them signed four years ago but not being implemented C'S The President ·· I appreciate that President Putin They'-re· nutty They're quite nuts The President Hc ipefully rational people will start showing up You talk to them we don't We hope tq have more rational people show up we'd like to have a better relationship 'S President Putin What surprised ·me when I was there they may · be-crazy in their ideology · but they're intellectuals They are educated in university come from an academic environment including Amadinejad his entourage the Speaker of parliament They are not primitive people It was quite a surprise to me The President To Secretary Rice and Foreign Minister Lavrov Do you have the language done on this thing yet You two go' and work on it U Secretary Rice We're very close I have a proposal· for you U The President President Putin Will you be in the meeting with ·Medvedev U No I want you to talk·to him personally 9ECfil1eT NW# 78134 To Foreign Minister Lavrov Docid 34685227 U ' 9 OEORB9 The President Secretary Rice cooperation I won't need much time U So we use assuage and remove the brackets on U End of Conversation -Bi3 e T NW# 78134 Docid 34685227