Jeclassifieci Ca se r- 1N# 78134 Date 13-22-2 125 OBCRD'f 7783 THE WHITE HQUSE _ WASHINGTON MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION SUBJECT Meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin PARTICIPANTS U The President Colin ' Powell •Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice Assist nt to the President for National Security Affairs Peter Afanasenko Interpreter Vladimir Putin President Igor Ivanov Foreign Minister Vladimir Rushaylo National Security A dvisor Interpreter· DATE TIME AND PLACE October 21 2001 6 15 ·7 30 p m · Shangahi China The Pre ident Let's talk philosophy at diriner some specific issues · Now I have President Putin Congratulations on how you handled this and ·on how you spoke Fabulous We hav been talking about terrorism and about how to conquer it· l want to congratulate you for what you ·have been doing No one knows better than I do what feelings you have experienced We ha e had the sa e tragedies ourselves We had the apartment explosions remember I fei't a closeness You have found the exact words and c onveyed them very well Cts I want to talk about the essence of an ongoing problem Everyone is asking What is the reason for this Terrorism and· · · Cft 'f Classified by Stephen E Bieg n Reaso'n 1 5 d Declassify On 10 23 11 NW# 78134 Docid 34685209 2 'SEC ft sq terror are only a weapon that someone is using Like a gun it has been used throughout history for different purposes We are witnessing this agai no as in past times nothing new today I have thought a tot about this and some thoughts have come to my mind · It was not by chance that I said that seven out of -ten of the richest people in the world are in the Middle East The problem isn't with· them The problem is that there is a contradiction between a new young _ aggressive financial Islamic capital and the old one A moment came when the new generation began to see the old as its competitor · _ From the time bin Laaen b came your pa tnei he felt himself your competitor · His desire to move· to · Central Asia or elsewhere was his desire to muscle in and subjugate all others to his will In reality it is a financial issue Religion is secondary The real goal is to have a place -in the center of world finances · a place that is alrea dy occupied They want to push away representatives of Jewish·capital or if not they will try to destroy the center and shake· it up and ultimately in that way to take its place The reason for the terrorism is n9't the Middle East or poverty They use poverty an they use unresolved conflicts They are using other pr·o blems These problems are not the real reasons for terrorism They are using the people of Afghanistan in the ·same way SJ C I raised this not just to support you but to say that we all have fight in the same world We have th same problem in the Caucasus I said t at his · coul not be done without victims That is what I had in mind when I spoke in Beilin I could rio t be frank in Berlin but here I c n tell you openly these are real challenges The threats hiv become global global forces have shifted They will require a reshifting of forces Thank you for the signals you have sent toward Russia But we felt that the ship began moving only after you gave ·orders several times to get it moving The bureaucracy is so unwieldy There are questions that are resolvable if we wish it · Regrettably Russia is in some ways still viewed a_s an enemy to the United States But there is also cooperation The intelligence services of our countries have been very involved t ogether We've given you a lot of information I _gave instructions smashing the Taliban is in our interests so give them everything we have What is the· point o f holding anything back Sometime after that _your_experts said that provisions of · American law prohibited giving Russia certain information But Russian intelligence coulq do a much better job with it S SBGRB'P NW# 78134 Doc Id 3468520 9 GBC 1E'f 3 The President That is an excuse President Putin They say there is a law Secretary Powell The President We must stop this ffil DIA may still have some problems The ice from· the Cold War is still thawing President Putin In Moscow I told Condoieezza that we would remov our base from Cuba I did that f6t many ieasons it could have remained for a long time I don't want to horsetrade or nickel and dime this thing or argue about who gets what So let me raise the issue of the Jackson-Vanik Amendment It was passed in 1974 as a -response to problems with Jewish emigration I don't want to waste time in light of the new situation Let's take China _They are our friends too Is the United States tied closer to China than to R·u ssia The point isn't even that we're losing economic advantage but should we think in terms Of Russia and the United States as competing or conflicting The President I agree completely We are trying to examine what can be done If I could ·r would say t ·hat Jackson-Vanik no longer exists tt is part of a bigger picture e need to get rid al _l the vestiges of the Cold War of President Putin I understand that this is a Con ressional issue but perhaps you can take th e initiative ' S'J The President We can do a big _a greement that encompasses a lot of things Jackson- anik help·on debt restructuring the WTO continuing our economic dialogue · rts President Putin Secretaries O'Neill and Evans and Ambassador Zoellick have been to Moscow · Thank you for their work· this has been very positive The President I told them that we could - tota l ly remake our · relationship We need to think about a comprehensive framewo rk President Putin They are very cooperative 'G l The President Here is my vision I firmly believe that you and I can refashion the distrustful relationship into one that reflects the reality tha you have just discussed We have go to think differently about our relations We can make a mark in NW# 78134 Docid 34685209 4 BCRB'l' history We should achieve arrangements on offenses · defenses on proliferation and on our economic relations and the rest of the world will follow We are not a threat ·to you and you are not a threat to us I have told countless people about your call on September 11 Time is of the es ence form One issue is defenses My intention is to work hard to see if we can reach agreement on defensive systems that you can live with We have choices I want an agreement and not go alone But I coul d go alone and not make it a big deal Still r · don't want to make a decision about this until we create an agreement I want a transparent relationship We will deploy systems that won't effect· your position This will be transparent a sharing of information I owe you an answer on offensive weapons We will reduce our offensive weapons to a level that makes you comfortable' I still have a little work to do with the military because of September 11 I haven't sat down with the generals but we wi ll do so next week · We will make it clear to the world that we do not want nuclear s u periority Nuclear weapons are obsolete for dealing with new threats But if terrorists had weapons ofmass destruction that would be a threat Of course we need a balance but at much lower levels START I verification can _ stay in place · - President Putin Tough issue in your letter we can wait The President ·The number will not be one in_which you can do a defense so that - you can still overwhelm us offensively President Putin I want to be extremely frank I will say so publicly that we have not achieyed an accord today maybe in Washington or later The President ·This is an opportunity The ABM Treaty was Nixon and Brezhnev I want a Bush-Putin agreement · I know t he Europeans are nervous This is your chance to lead the Europeans This is a historic moment I will ·give you a number soon I want an opportunity to get a new agreement The press will ask wh ther I told you a sp cific date for withdrawal from the ABM Treaty I will say that the ABM Treaty is out of date and that we need to move sooner· rather than later t'S-l · NW# 78134 Docid 34685209 •CRET 5 On counterterrorisrn I can't thank you enough If you are providing information and not receiving I need ·to know My intention is ·not to play a game · I appreciate your statement about Chechnya and about contacts with mo'derate Chechens There is an important distinction to be made about sensit vity to minority right - It seems tom that you ought t6 give moderates a chan e to get rid pf groups like al - Qaida I told Shevar_dnadz·e that he has a problem with Russia and that Russia needs him to get rid of ter orists On counterproliferation we've talked about Iran These are terrorists and iran is inv6lv d one way or another · Hezbollah is involved with al-Qaida and there have been frank discussi ons between these two President indicates Secretary Powell and Minister Ivanov I think that's positive We rieed to work on this On Jackson-Vanik Congr·ess is afraid of the Jewi sh communit'y ·a nd Jackson-Vanik is symbolic - President Putin I'll do anything at · ail except one need me to· have a circumcision that I can't do if they The President We'll ork on this I want to help on debt· restructuring You've mentioned ' this and we may be able to 90 some things with this When Germany sees a ew relationship and movement on counterproliferation etc they may come along r told Zoellick to help with the WTO and he agrees -I hope - I do think we ought to- follow up on having media entre preneurs conduct sessions pulling iri entrepreneurs i · Russia Russia is more than natural resources · Getting managers· together to foster an entrepreneuiial spirit is an inter sting oppo tunity There is more I want the appr pri te people to talk about a framework t hat will be clearer by Crawford We will have an offensive number and you'll be comfortable It would be good if we can move forward with an agreement that outlasts you and me We should start discussions and work· toward an agreement to formalize something we want our relationship to be unique We have n opportunity to tefashion an 61d relationship to address new threats · You see as clearly ·as anyorie the true and enduring threa ts that we both fate We're going to be £icing them f_or a long time A n w framework ·w ould be a huge step We've got to cut a deal 'SJ NW# 78134 Docid 34685209 6 President Putin I will go through the topics On offensive arms you wrote in your letter about this and I know this wi l l happen The Pres'ident You will have the number 1'sJ President Putin On the ABM Treaty I will be very frank I have said that we do not expect a breakthrough This wi l l come l_ater With Clinton we would not agree to change a single · comma of the ABM Treaty But now we have agreed to deve lop a new dialogue with you Some changes are possible We _are thinking of how to build relations with the west we want to be part of modern civilization There is no other choic e though we need to be aware of t·he East the most important thing is what t h e consequences will be of the changes taking place i nside my country We ·must take into account the realities and radical changes On Ger many I am the President of Russia · not of Germany nor o f France Our position today is radically different from what it was during the Clinton administration We are ready to discuss 'the parameters of our relationship I must make clear we are not ready to withdraw in principle But we a re rea dy t o replac e · the treaty by· some other treaty A Bush-Putin Treaty We should start now preparing a new treaty But today your ·military needs a document to be abl e to do their work Rumsfeld told me that he didn't know what the military wanted I know this I told hi Ask me I'll ·tell ou what they want u BUt we can envision what will be neede over the next two three five years If you don't believe that this can be done within the treaty we can create · something else We _are ready to talk parameters Our experts are roughly the same And if you need two three to five years ·to do testing · go ahead For this the existing treaty is sufficient If not we can give it some new parameters · we a_re ready to talk about a new treaty and parameters Meanwhile use the current treaty and keep testing four to five years You could · make another choice If you prefer to withdraw we will not pose problems We will not blow anti-American hysteria we will riot pose problems for you I have said this we think 'it is agreeabl e to you We wi l l act calmly and not tie your hands t'S NW# 78134 Doc Id 34685209 -e F GP F J 7 The President i appreciate that In the meantime we hould make a declaration that we will work for another agreement 'SJ resident Putin I a ree · We have discussed this and there is a promising way to resolve these issues We see the way f o rward The President We need a visors but nothing will get done unless you and I power through_ There are people in country that wiil not be pleased I understand every leader does my President Putin I am being very frank Our goal is to move to a lower · smaller figu e For -u to say we are withdrawing from _the treaty is · a very· big problem t-S The President You will haVe no se urity p oblem with us withdrawing · I understand your problem tsJ President · Put in We can sa·y _we talked and have an understan¢iing to move forward On terro r i sm and Chec lnya you were talking about moderates You-say there is Maskhado There are only 200 - 300 people around him and when the State Depaitment said that he should get rid cif the Aiab terrorists he listened btit he has no one to rely on H had his ·wife move to S ria with his people 's t The President I thought your statement was very positive People say you'll try to crush minorities This was very wise how you posi_tioned yourself t-t am President P utin I not an expert but af ter the ·State Department' spoke to their Foreign Minister Akhmadov · they said We are asked to get ·rid of the Arab terrorists He said How am I to do this I ·will be left with no one Mas_k h'adov has no place to ·go This is not possible The Pr esident Do you think every Chechen is a terrorist President Putin No but the fighters all are They are bin Laden's students Bin Lad n traine them You ould know if you could see the pictures They even look like him This was the reaction a week after my inv itation to talk On September 28 or 29 w re c e ived information that he calls hims e lf _ Supreme Commander and gave an order smash the e nemy on his t e rritory and to commit terrorist acts again s t · civilians o n Russian territory to attac k industrial · complexes the military railways Second they planned t'o intensify to NW# 78134 Docid 3468 209 8 ECRO'fl · actions of small mobile groups to execute Shariya law against those who oppose them I want a dialogue but ·with whom S Now I will tell you what these people who work with al-Qaida and bin Laden say I'm tired of killing Iva s ·r killed o many of them and they are still stupid Now I have to go to Afghanistan Now I have to kill 'fat Americans ' We will work in Afghanistan and then return to Chechnya The President them - Good They·are in Afghinistan and I'll beat President Putin I know the history of Chechnya But you must understand when the State Department meets these people it provokes a reaction Chechnya is a 400-year-old problem The Chechen people always had an asP ira ion for independence We should respect this The events of 1 95 showed it Today it is impossible Russia withdrew completely in 1995 and gave it complete independence but not formally What were the consequences It led to radical Islam 'N The President They became a sort of host difficult ·How do you deal with it b t President Putin The Soviet Union made big mistakes in Afghanistan They didn't understand and tried to put a pro-Soviet non-representative government iri place based upori minorities The Pashtuns were excluded They became indignant Radical Islamic fundamentalists assimilate into the territoiy of Afghanistan and called it traditional _Islam We must - oust the Taliban and bring in the Pashtuns We must do the sa e thing in Chechnya We have good reJations wit4 traditional Islam Our military does sometimes commit crimes We are taking · s eps Do · not · interfere with this process Now about Georgia I know Shevardnadze He is a wily person knows these people he was in the party leadership When he let Chechens into Georgia he was afraid At the outset he told us to close the border and said he would ctose it but he · change his mind and they established 1 500 camps there You said Rid your territory of terrorists He cannot deal wi th the problem He cannot he is too weak His military has not _been paid in eight months He took 500-700 guerillas and put them on trucks and drove them thro_u gh Georgia to the opposite part of the country He tried to recapture Abkhazia Now they are ·ioca ed at another pait of the border with Russia _ They are deployed in a · place where the border is not p r otected He It is very NW# 78134 Docid 34685209 · · - - ····--·--·-·-· · ·----·---·-- -- SB€RB'¥ 9 Putin shows maps of the Georgia Abkhazia region Shevardnadze took them to a peacekeepers This part of are near Sochi and just 1 5 Shevardnadze · wants· to fight U p rt of the border where we have the border is not protected They kilometers from the border If terrorism how would you· react On the media · let your experts come With respect to TV-6 the owne r is Berezovskiy who is in hiding This is not all I want tq share what I saw on·their station They were hosting Al Jazeera They are working as they want Now there is an administ rative dispute with Lukoil We do not ·• want to interfere L koil wants t6 buy their whole station Yest rday I saw· an hour long interview with Al Jazeera in Mos cow · It said the difference between bin Laden and Bush is none one has a beard the other does not 1 l The President I'd be angry Pre·sident Putin They TV-6 do and say what they want problem is getting a competitive media - The The President Get these guys to see if there is fresh capital and you can get some competition End of Conversation -socmn NW# 78134 Doc Id 34685209 - --····-··-- - - -