ecla ssifie d Case f'-JW# 78134 Date · 8-22-2025 8642 SHCRB'f THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON MEMORANDUM ·oF CONVERSATION Expanded Meeting with Vladimir Putin President of the Russian Federation SUBJECT U PARTICIPANTS The President I Donald Rumsfeld Secretary of Defense Andrew Card Chief of Staff Condoleezza Rice Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs Karen Hughes Counselor to ' the Presiden t Stephen Hadley Assistant to -the President and Depu ty National_·security Advisor · Ari Fleischer Assistant to the Presi dent and White House Press Secretary · Alexander Vershbow U S Ambassador to Russia A Elizabeth Jones Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Thomas Robertson Director for Rus s ian Affairs NSC Staff Note taker Eric Edelman Principal Deputy Assi s tant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs Nikolai Sorokin Interpreter Kyrill Borissow Interpreter Vladimir Putin President Vladimir Rushaylo Secretary of the Security Council Igor Ivanov Minister of Foreign Affairs bmitriy Medvedev Fi'rst Deputy of Administration Sergiy Prikhodko Deputy Chief of the Administration Yury Ushakov · Russian Ambassador to t he Urii ted States Marshal Igor se·rgeyev Ass i stant to the President qn Defense Issues · Classified by Stephen E Biegun Reason l S d Declassify on 11 21 11 NW# 781 4 Docid 34_6 85211 SECR 2 Anton Danilov-Danilian Director for Economic Policy Presidential Administration · Georgiy Mamedov Deputy Minister of Foreign· Affairs ·General Yuriy Baluyevsky First Deputy Chief General Staff Russian Armed Forces Vladimir Chkhikvishvili Director · · Department of North America Ministry of Foreign Affairs Sergey Ryabkov Senior Counselor Igor Neverov Deputy Chief of Mission Yuriy Filatov Deputy Director Departmen of North America No tetaker Val riy Zaitsev Interpreter Aleksey Obukhov Interpreter Andrey Tsybenko Interpreter DATE TIME AND PLACE November 13 2001 11 15 a m - 12 15 p m EST Cabinet Room The President Welcome to the Cabinet Room This is where I meet with Cabinet ·secretaries once a month as a group _ It's probably the first time an American Pre ident and Russian President are together in the Cabinet Room N I want to teil our teams of our commitment to a new rela tionship a new alliance · with Russia We ·speak of our friendship It may take longer for our nations to be friends it won't be instantly but I am determined to see it - On our strategic relations our Ministers are w9rking on how to talk about all this at the press conference We bpth have our interests and we don t al ways agree C'e President Putin has been very strong about representing· his country's interests Now I told hi m my wife and I don't always agree 100 percent of the time but we· still love each _other President Putin says he and his wife do agree all the time his marriage is unusual he does everything she says C S l 1 I believe it is in the American people's best interests my _nation's best· interests that we have ·an alliance with Russia in both the short-term and in the long-term NW# 78134 Docid 34685211 3 bisGRE'P The President has been most cooperative in the war with terrorism ··He has been very helpful he has given us advice about 'Afghanistan and his work ith Afghanistan with Tajikistan and Uzbekistan has been invaluable - Our relationship is more than military cultural and it will mature with time It s also economic I want to welcome you to the formal part of · our meetings Later I will welcome you _to the informal part to my favorite place at home in Texas I can think o·f no better gesture than to have the Putins as the first foreign leader in our home As for NATO I can say that it is in my nation's and the world's interests that Russia be given a unique role with NATO a role that both President Putin and we can be comfortable with I can' t speak for all of NATO but I can speak for ·America as a · part of ATO We welcome a dialogue It's important for the Russian government to construct a new relationship with NATO I welcome the President's assistance on counter-proliferation and counterterrorism He and I know that evil can strike in different ways We have· a l ot to work on So Mr President you can proceed with any subject you would like I understand that at lunch we will speak about commerce By the way I told the President we would be getting rid of Jackson-Vanik that we would take s·teps to help Russia get into the WTO There's a lot 6f important things we can do together We want the relationship to ' succeed I can be very frank with the President when we are alone Not hat I wouldn't be with the rest of this group But when we are alone and · look at each other across the table we can be frank · I didn't mean to give a speech and I apologize you to know how str·ongl_y I feel · Just wanted President Putin Tha_n k you This is an extremely important and interesting historical place where one of the most powerful countries in history was created Developing our partnership is very serious and very important We discussed it extensively and I will mention some of it in general terms You are aware SECRET NW# 78134 Docid 34685211 4 of our position pn strategic relations We are looking for way forward to a decision accept ble to both bur cou tries with respe t to our national security and to calm world public opinion We think we can find solutions based on mutual understanding and ·taking into consideration each side's interests This relationship has lots of components 'fhe most important is enhanced trust · ' For µs frankly strategic stability encompasses not only ball is tic missiles but aiso tactical nuclear missiles Fiankly while they a e located beyorid the border of the United States they could reach Russia · so it is an important subject whether ballist-ic or· tactical These problems we have inherited from the past and we must work carefully and patiently to solve these issues and t think solutions are possible SJ There are other issues besides these ·our experts must work to prevent proliferaiiori of weaporis not just mi siles and nuclear weapons but also biological and chemical The President C Yes 'ls l President Putin Our expert are prepared to cooperate on preventing CW and BW proliferation As I understand it it is clear that the types of anthrax in the United States are most likely not weapons-·grade They apparently are softer types unlikely to have been developed in the Untied States or Russian laboratories Our experts must wo rk s·eriously with· yours · We need to understand the logic of your pos_itions you·r plans wit respect to the BW Convention We are c6ntinuing destruction ·of our chemical weapon's We want to continue working efficientiy we have developed the relevant prograrns Sometimeswe hear · frorn your experts that the United States has concerns whether everything is being destroyed We wish to be utterly transparent It is in our interests to destroy all stockpiles Let's keep working · I'd like to say a few words on n ciear arms We need to understand yoµr plans with respect to nuclear testing Will you resume testing or not If so what kind of tests modes and types This is of concern to Russia and to others The President We have no plans tb test righ now nd I ve made that clear to the American people· · This is not to say that ten years from now we m'i ght decide to do it But we will keep the testing ban in place NW# 78 1 34 Docid 34685211 5 President Putin I understand This · is an important statement for us Another issue I would like to draw attention to is that concerning flank restri ctions of our ·armed forces and arms in Europe · under CFE I don't think we have to make a decision here We've ·observed every restriction and are consistently remov i ng our weapons and soldi rs· from Transnist ia and Georgia even though the Georgian leadership is not behavi g wel i today We stand by the Istanbul commitments President Yeltsin made and they wi 11 be_ fully implemented 5- ·· Our last soldiers left their bas e in Georgia There is one aspect of flank r e strictions you need to understa nd 'tG l Explanation about what flank r estrictions refer to We exceed tbe limits in the Caucasus area for reasons that are understanda ble and justified _As the situation con inu s to ge t better we will continue to remove our soldiers It is ot·· so much that we are fight ing with Chechens rather with Arabs and ·fighters from other Islamic sta·tes We have · destroyed about 400 of these foreign fighters but 500-700 still remain active against us Our experts should think about this so that the f l ank issue wouid ceas to be a problem for u We need to speak of our ABM treaty relationship strategic stability flank limitation·s and disarmament · - A major problem in the· world is nonproliferation · We are prepa red t6 work closely togeth r I want to draw the President's and his colleagues a·ttention not only · to Iran but also ·to Pakistan We discussed this extensively in the · Oval Office There is a different · aspect that with Musharraf hiding weapons He should not be allowed to gain de facto legalization a s a nuclear power in the region in ·the process of safeguar iing his nuclear weapons It's not in our interests nor i'n yours India China and Pakistan are of concern We should not expand the nuclear club to take in Pakistan or India Musharraf s hould feel pressure from you and from the world community As for developments in Afghanistan as we agr ed in Shanghai I met with the Northern- Alliance in Du shanbe We focused their e fforts on the situation in the ·north- in Afghanistan They promised in principle · not _to capture Kabul before the question _ of a n_ew government had been decided It was a ·surprise for me when I heard the news · they had taken Kabul Now they claim they didn't at tack Kabul and· didn ' t NW# 78134 Do_c id 3468521 1 6 break the agreement They were approaching Kabul when the Taliban abandoned the city and they did not attack and did not take by force In order to avoid lo6ting they inserted some security forces The President I heard the sam e thing President Putin I spoke to Rahmonov and Karimov of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan and they had nothing unusual to say except they said th t that the Unit d States was pushing · the Northern Alliance to attack Kabul The President That's not true fleeing like rabbits The Taliban escaped they're · President Putin The Taliban left on purpose to keep and · protect their personnel and equipment move them to their areas of traditional support where the Northern Ailiance are less able to fight Those same areas ·support the Taliban They had originally moved into other areas of· Afghanistan now they have returned to their own areas There is a real danger of the flow of personnel and arms from Pakistan and · we will be unable to · pre ent them from fightihg foi the aiiban I am not saying that Musharraf would personally do •thi but some of his generals might l's l · The Presideni We too are worried about the flow from Pakistan into Afghanistan but we are also concerned about the flow of al-Qa da from Afghanistan to Pakiitan We need to think about how we can seal the border ·We have the same concern I would be interested in your advice Our ministers should · discuss this 'SJ ' Pr sident Putin It's hard to give advice and it's ·not only hard but impossible to seal the border We need to destroy · them like rats or buy them off When the Taliban moved _into North Afgha istan with the support 6f Pakistan fi e years ago the field commanders would just change their uniforms and flags and their turbans Nowit 1 s happening in reverse 1 S l But of course the Taliban have now withdrawn in an organized fashion to their staging posts in order to regroup It doesn ' t matter where the center of terrorism is north or south it -must be·· destroyed Frankly for us it ·w as mo '1t important to clear Northe rn Afghanistan where the training camps for Caucasus terrorists wer¢ located But for you it is important for -you to go wherever you need to get those sponsors of terrorism who 8ECR l3'r NW# 78134 Docid 34685211 SECRB'f 7 continue to threateri the United Stat s We should not limit ourselves to North rn Afghanistan We are ieady to work with you to clear all of Afghanistan If we let them regroup they' 11 come back The President We are not quitting until we have achieved our objective President taps table No matter how tired others may become we will be steady we will be relentless and · We will get them we will hunt them down We will not forget the mission I promise you Mr President · I am determined and the Secretary of Defense here is determined no matter how long it takes North · outh e st or west we'll get em Dead or alive And I have q preference t'SJ on President Putin The Northern Alliance's troops are approaching Kandahar They are basically ready to assault Kandahar I t is · the Talibari's base We agree with you fully that we need to be active According to our data bin Laden is somewhere down there in the south in Afghanistan He used to be closer to the Iranian border but Iran has become more active and he has moved have tried to engage Iran and other neighbors to· work jointly with us I know you have problems with Iran 'SJ we The President We had a good 6 plus 2 meeting yesterday Igor Ivanov did a fine job in facilitating the meeting But no we' re not in love with them • nor they with us but perhaps we can work on a better relationship with your help · President Putin We are trying They also want the situation to be stable for the long-term Perhaps if they set aside their ambitions Extreme Islamist circles ·don't allow us to formalize our cooperation but we will keep trying But this is an important success In liberated northern Afghanistan they are playing music women are burning their chadors Unfortunately we dori' t see this on TV · • · · The Eresident Some on 'IN want the Taliban to win President Putin On the Northern Alliance in Kabul even yesterday the government cornmunicat_e d that they s houldn '· t ' introduce armed forces into Kabul They should make clear that these are · just security forces police to restore law and order so as not to rock the _boat · for Musharraf Otherwise it would be ct defeat for him NW# 78134 Doc Id 34685211 S Ii GRD'f' 8 The President Yes some Pakistanis started clai ing t at the Northern Alliance was already raping women in Kabul before they even got there · a It will take time for the U N ·to put team together so we will have to manage this transition be t ween the military victory and the estaplishment of a new government But· I unde rs tand what you're saying about the consequences and the public relations problems we face 'S l Prisident Putin We need o s eed up the solution of the future of Afghanistan We need to engage -them on th problems of tomorrow and land a place for the Northern Aiiiance · They say that their forces are dying in liberating Afghanistan while their political future is being decided by those far away sipping coffee while they fight - The President You mean the King President -Putin Yes there are very st ong reactions in · mi litary circles to the King Whatever · it must be done quickly In the south we need to think about what we will do · we have now demonstrate results in - he ndrt While theie is • some negative in what has happened in Kabul it is positive that Kabul is free It will be ·hard for the Northern Alliance to go farther With the Pushtun tribes perhaps - we 'can take a stick and force Musharraf to do his job It· is not enoug for him -to ·simply put down demonstrations We need to c·reate a government and normalcy he · can help in cleaning up the south We have great · experts in some -o f the Arab countries They will have an interesting thought They' 11 say · the goal is achieved Kabul is· liberated Now stop all activities That · would be a trick don ' t buy it · We have only achieved our tactical objectives by i iberating the north Now we have to capture Kandahar - - 'l'he President You' re right The · goal has not been achieved Taps the table Five thousand people including Russians were killed We will not st p until we hav justice - h y will be hunted down and we ill get them I promise you we wil l not stop until we have brought al-Qaida to j ustice Don't worry about the United States · Others may wring their hands I tolcf our ·Arab friends who wanted us to stop for · Ramadan that they al Qaida may try to get us during Ramadan We're not stopping and · we're not leaving until we _get them ts ' I President Putin you You've taken the right stand SiJCFHsT NW# 78134 Docid 34685211 · We'll be with 9 OBCflET The President I am not in the least bit worried about you I might be about some of -0ur allies As great nations we're the most vulnerable targets You understand the stakes 1 you know what happened that they attacked the United St a tes and what that means and -2 you have been attacked yourself in Moscow had buildings blown up seen innocent women and children killed No I' m not worried about you You're the type of guy I like to have in the foxhole with me 'S l · President Putin We also need to support Uzbekistan and Tajikistan Pakistan is a curious ally strange bedfel low They help while at the same time they burn American flags Others are different ·some may be better allies than your traditional allies They are Muslim countries who have problems that they want to address on their They do not ask you for help They go ahead and help without making noise We have to think about h_ow we can help them own Regarding our possible participation in search and rescue for downed air crews We have spetsnaz troops armed with the necessary means communications and helicopters who have experience in Che hnya They are now in Dushanbe ·They have trained there with your people I won't speak publicly about this but we are prepared to use the·m in Afghanistan if necessary We have a di vision 12 500 men i ·n Tajikistan ·plus we have another 10 000 border guards who protect Tajikistan's borders · They are mobilized well-armed _and a powerful t1 reat to the Taliban ts l us I am grateful _you have decided for compensating to finance arms purchases for weapons f r the Northern Alliance The President The Secretary of Defense is always looking for more money for his budget although I guess that's coming from another budget t St ·President· Puti'n No matter tn Russia we have an expressi on Money doesn't have any smell The President This is coming from the Defense budget right Or is this coming from Condi President Putin We love h er even more for that At the time of Secretary Rumsfeld's visit we saw attempts to buy Russian arms from the Kyrgyz and the ·Kazakhstanis but not from us There's a certain logic The Americans buy arms increase their NW# 78134 Docid 34685211 10 3BCR 'f influence But how could you buy · from the· Kyrgyz whose soldiers are in sneakers They sold thei arms and w1iforms You can get the arms more cheaply there and send them on to Afghanistan f's But· I am thankful to the Secretary of Defense that he listened to me when he was in Moscow and had an impact on the decision· ·Now that the Northern Alliance has entereq Kabul ·we wi1·1 tell them to be moderate or we'll stop providing them with arms Believ me we want to ooperate with you honestly and transparently rs The President' It is in our interest that we s ucceed ·in fighting al-Qaida but also that we succeed in stabilizing Afghanistan There are 60 al-Qaida cells all over the world They are just as bad in Russia as in the United States we·are tracking them in the United States and seeking them out And I can assure you that if we have intelligence of a threat in Russia _ e'll tell you immediately that we hadspec fic information · Thanks for your comments on Georgia and on I am told it's time for lunch As you cal call them advisors they need to ·understand on a new relationship one that is based on cooperation I know you feel the same way End of Conversation OfJCRE'f NW# 78134 DoeI d 34685211 non-proliferation them experts and we have started out trust and