8099 6CRB-T THE WHITE HOUSE WASH I NGTON DECLASSIFIED PER E 0 13526 MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION y-T K8M SUBJECT MeetingwithRussian Prime Minister Putin PARTICIPANTS U S President Clinton Secretary Albright National Security AdvisorBerger Deputy National Security AdvisorSteinberg Counselorto the President Sosnik CarlosPascual notetaker StateDepartmentDAS John Beyrle Russia Prime Minister Putin ForeignMinister Ivanov RussianAmbassador to Norway Kvitsinskiy Chiefof Secretariat Sechin MFA Chkhikvishvili notetaker Interpreter PeterAfanasenko DATE TIME AND PLACE November 2 1999 3 00­3 50 p m Oslo Norway The President Glad to see you again Would you like to begin the discussion or would like me to U Prime Minister Putin Why don'tyou start U The President Let me first say how pleasedI am thatyou came It would not have been the same if you had not I think your remarkswere very good And it makes a difference thatyou are here With all thatyou have goingon it would have been easy foryou not to come I want to offer some observations on Chechnya I have now heard you talk about this and I think about it a lot I believe it is important to protect your sovereignty and territorial ­gFCRE Classified by RobertA Bradtke Reason 1 5 d Declassify On 11 10 09 jfie nET integrity and to standagainstterrorism But if the priceis to incurmajor civilian casualties that's too high a priceto pay and it will draw international criticism Beyond that I don'tknow if such a strategy will work because it couldturn ordinary peoplein Chechnya againstyou i S People oftenmake comparisonsthatare not always appropriate blit I know as an American thatthe priceof conflict can be so high thatit's not worthit and thatit can't be sustained It's not because peoplelove the Chechens thatyou get tough questions from the international community There'sno broad­ based movement in supportof Chechen independence But you need to combine a political strategy witha military strategy i­Sj I'mworried about all thosepeoplewho are affected by the conflict — the ones who are displaced and who can't get to safety I urge you to open the bordersforthesepeople I'm worried about the civilian casualties and their humanitarian toll But I'malsoworriedabout Russia losing supportfrom the international community I hope you findsomeone to talk to or perhaps lookto an intermediary like OSCE J At Istanbul I had assumed an itemwe would achieveis signing a modified CFE Treaty You'vebeen straightforward about being over the CFE levels It's all been above board and therehave been no denials and I want you to know I appreciate that But you need to decideif you want to get thisTreatydone And if so then you need to do somethingon Georgiaand Moldova Back on Chechnya I urge you to decideif thereis somethingyou can do I've tried to avoidtalking publicly about Chechnya and I've tried to supportyou on your fight against terrorism But you need a parallel political strategy where you say here iswhat we'redoingin addition to our military actions I'm concernedabout the civilian casualties and the humanitarian implications But without a political strategy you'll get the worstof both worlds— peoplewill die and you will not succeed in endingthe conflict Bj Prime Minister Putin I appreciate what you saidand I value our relations We discussedthese issuesin New Zealand Dagestanwas evolving then Let me take 30 seconds to remind you of the history In 1996 Russia de factorecognized Chechen independence Chechnya de factobecame an independent state Mr Ivanovhas explained internationally thatthisindependenceis legally HS ECRET deferred until a referendumin 2001 But in 1996 Chechnya chose its own president We removed all of Russia's troopsand it had all its own soldiers It developedall its own power structures psO Chechnya didnot set up a functional government It broke up intointernal factions It printed counterfeit dollars It spreaddrugs There were widespreadkidnappings In effect a criminal economy was createdon the borderof Russia People were leaving their belongings and runningaway But chaos was not enough The bandits decidedto carryout an armed attack on anotherRussian republic Dagestan and on anotherMuslim republic at that These are Muslim extremists like you had in Iran 8 Putin draws the following on a sheet of paper and shows it to the President V V V Pointing to the right arrow he says First they attacked us in Dagestan and we knocked them out Pointing to the middle arrow A week later theyhit us again in Dagestan and we knocked them out Pointing to the left arrow Then theyhit again in Dagestan and the population of Dagestan knocked them out After thatthese terrorists undertookfourdifferent bomb attacks against apartmentsin Dagestan and inMoscow Alltold 1 500 peoplewere killed from these acts S Let me tell you in the confines of thisroom about a message thatwe intercepted from a Jordanian operating in Chechnya Khattab back to hisbackersin the MiddleEast Everyday Russiaweakens In September we hitRussia at its very core The last time explosions like this were seen inMoscow was in World War II The whole world as a result is now on the Russianside I think you would agree withme thatit isnot in the UnitedStates' interest to have an extremist state between the Black Sea and the Caspian I hope I can count on U S support The humanitarian situation bothersus too But foryou to understand dear Mr President you need to know thatwe have taken in 700 000 people from Chechnya sincethe end of the last ­BilCnET ■ SEGR g conflict — 200 000 Russiansand 500 000Chechens They all left Chechnya and we acceptedthem Again I will tell you in the confidentiality of thisroom that we have the family of Chechen President Maskhadov under our protection No one knows this They are in one of the refugee camps and are directly under us A little whileago Maskhadov asked forour help to eliminate the bands of terrorists in Chechnya Now he is sayingsomethingdifferent The situation is very complicated but we will deal withit If we can do thistogether unclear if together withthe UnitedStatesor Maskhadov therewill be fewer losses The extremists made a verybigmistake Iftheyhad not attacked Russia things would have continued in their previous state I have gone now intothe freedareas of northern Chechnya and met withthe Chechen eldersthere For threeyears theydid not get paid theydid not get their pensions For two and a halfyears the schoolsdid not open The first thingthey asked me was you won'tleaveus will you Of coursewe want Chechnya to stayin the Russian Federation That is good counselon your partto start a dialogue We will tryto providelocal autonomy givethem control over their schools and hold elections in the future But we have to eliminate the terrorists at their bases Foreignjournalists have reported sympathetically towardthe rebels but they are at risk They recently took a French journalist They are torturing him everyday and took a video of this now theywant a ransom Chechnya has reached a condition of full anarchy thiscauses damage to the population We understand the humanitarian issue We want to work withthe international community Partof the U S food aid goes to Dagestan and to Chechnya Note U S food deliveries to Dagestan and Chechnya tookplacein the springof 1999 before the conflict began The President How do you see resolving thisconflict 1 Prime Minister Putin Our strategy has threeparts Knock out the terrorists createviable local governmentsand hold elections This iswhat I'd like to see In two weeks our troopscan go from one end of Chechnya to another but I have been holding them back I don'tthink they shouldattacklarge cities ­SECR ET 5 In the security zone we are already openingschools paying pensions restarting the electricity and slowly bringing things back to normal conditions But let me tell you how direthings are A teachertold me thateven if theyget paid therewill be no schoolbecause the kidsdon't have clothes to wear This is how extreme the poverty has become The humanitarian issuesare in the security zone as well not just in the refugeeareas But I think what we are dealing withhere isMuslim extremists In Dagestan theycreateda women's Muslim battalion Imagine that it's amazing Theirwhole lives theyhave believed in Allah Now they are taking up arms in the name of Allah Itis impossible forus to do anything elsenow But we will tryto findsomeone to have a dialogue with YesterdayIvanovmet withAhtisaari's representative and proposedthatthe OSCE send a team to reviewthe refugee situation The EU has had peoplethere We are ready to cooperate But you need to remember thisis a danger zone Foreigners need to be careful so thatwe don'thave crimesand kidnappings happeningagain The President Let's go back to the CFE issues Prime Minister Putin This is simplebecause we want to sign the Treaty We are open to finishing it Minister Ivanovhas been pushingthe military and he is right to do that Yesterday I made a statementthatI am committedto this and I am committedto bringing the languageintolinein the Treatyto letthishappen On Moldova we want to get our troopsout but Smirnovheads up thisseparatist faction IfI can say so privately he is hooked up withcriminal elements and it ishard to say what motivates him We have 15 unitsthere But whenever we lookat removing them Smirnovputs women and children on the train tracksto keep them from moving Georgiais a more complicated situation Georgiaexists on paper as a unified state In the northyou have Abkhazia in the south Adjaria ­­neither of them listens to Shevardnadze Ifthe Georgianswant us to leave right away this will lead to difficult internal developmentsand therewill be nothingleft of Georgia Someone will have to do the fighting forthem They have a second Abkhaziaabout to happen in Ossetia These are complicated problems and we can't allowthereto be mistakes 5' ■SECRET ­SSeR T We have no strongdesireto stayin Georgia but if we tiethe CFE Treatyup withthisissue we won'tget it solved We are ready to take out the hardware thatis okay But to closeout the bases thatis anotherthing We are ready to deal withall of this but you and I can't make mistakesabout these issues Besides the Treatydoes not deal withbases These are the issuesthatwe have to deal with I would like to give you this original letter from President Yeltsin on START and ABM issues The President Let's go back to the CFE issues Georgiajust had an election They have new parliamentary representation Even if this base issuewon'tderail the CFE Treaty I think you must still talk to Georgiaabout the bases CSjT Prime Minister Putin The CFE Treatydoes not deal withclosing bases We are exceedingour equipmentlevels due to the Chechnya operations we notified thatand we are not violating the CFE Treaty In Armenia the situation isvery tough after the terrorist attack The forcesare sitting in their barracksterrified We need to be careful and take a step­by­step approach CSj On Georgia one week ago we gave them a proposal The President You gave a proposalto the Georgians iSf ForeignMinister Ivanov Yes we gave them a proposalon withdrawal We have differences of opinion on time We are over our ceiling in Georgiaby some 240 armored combat vehicles We have a difference of opinion on the time to withdrawthese On the bases we proposedthatwithin a year we can negotiate everything on the bases and their status But the Georgianswant it all now The Georgiansneed thisCFE Treatyno lessthan we do Of coursewe recognize thatGeorgiais a sovereign state and they can decidewhat theywant but we need a reasonable time periodto work thisout We tookour whole army out of Germany We've showed we will act on our word but we need time to work out all the details What's the issuethat's driving the Georgiansto do all of thisin the next two weeks Secretary Albright Look thereis a violent situation in Chechnya There is a realdanger it couldinfect the South SECRE T sfieRfiT Caucasus and it needs to be defusedforthe sake of the entire region On Chechnya there's no getting around the need to talk perhaps witha third partyas an intermediary On Georgia we don'tthink thereis any ambiguity They'vemade it clearthat theydon't want Russian troopsbased on their border National Security AdvisorBerger Let me add to that If we go to Istanbul and signthe CFE Treaty we are goingto be asked how can you signthe Treatyif Russia is out of compliance If we say thatRussia has disclosed its forcelevels and statedits intention to comply peoplewill say thatisnot enough Itis important to say we have a schedulewithMoldova and Georgiaand thatwe can show thatthe Treatyisnot just about future promises Prime Minister Putin We can continue to negotiate but it is not clearhow quickly we can do this ForeignMinister Ivanov President Yeltsin called Shevardnadze and proposedthatour Defense Minister go down to Georgiafor negotiations First Shevardnadzesaidyes then he saidno Prime Minister Putin There is anotherproblemhere When our army leaves the locals don'tallowus to take our equipment Imagineleaving these huge areas withweapons and arms caches We don'twant to arm separatists The consequenceswould be disastrous The President Let me turnto anotherissuethatrelates to Boris' letter I know we have differences on missile defense but we need to keep workingon this and I have to ask you to tone down the rhetoric Ifthistechnology becomes available I don't want to keep it justforthe UnitedStates I will make it available to our friends and partners Borissent me a serious letter Tellhim I will respondpersonally and in detail Prime Minister Putin We will continue to talk This is an important issue and we shouldnot undo all we have accomplished in arms control Anyway everything iswritten in the letter so thereisno need forme to repeatit On Chechnya the question is how we crush this base of terrorism but take minimallosses Well what will be done will be done We have a solid military strategy We will attack areas with terrorists But how can we negotiate withterrorists The Russianpeoplewould never acceptthis We need to findthose we can deal with j ECRB ■SECR gP We need to continue our cooperation on law enforcement The Minister of Interior was just in the UnitedStatesand he met withthe FBI the CIA and others Secretary Albright had a meetingwithhim It was a constructive visit We are workingon our money­laundering legislation and we will adopt a draft in the near future The President Good That'svery important Prime Minister Putin We plan to join the international convention against money laundering There are more areas for us to work We want Istanbul to be a good normal summit The President Me too But we need to be careful about how it will playand how otherissueson the international screenare going to affect it Secretary Albright We would be veryupset as wellif we had experienced terrorist bombings in our country But it seems thereare two separateproblemshere and it may help to separatehow you deal withthem One is the issueof terrorism and how you respondto that The otheris a humanitarian problem particularly now thatdisplaced peoplecannotget acrossthe border We cannot supportyou as you go deeper and deeper intoChechen territory and the humanitarian problemgets worse You need to do somethingon the humanitarian issueand get a political dialogue going Prime Minister Putin I agree we need to finda partner but I don'tknow how we are going to do this The President I think you have to You can't solvethis with just one arrow in your quiver This conflict may be playing wellforyou at home but not internationally Criticism keeps mounting In my experience politics and reality eventually become aligned and you need to keep thisin mind So I hope you findsomeone to deal within a forthright way and thatyou reduce the civilian casualties Prime Minister Putin I agree Can we say we have commonality in strategy SEC T The President You put me in a difficult position What if thereis anotherattack where you shell civilians How can I say thatI agree withthat We can say thatwe agree on the need to finda political solution and thatwe understand the need to fight terrorists I like the idea of getting terrorists if you can separatethem out In the end you need to reach an accommodationof some kindthatdoesn't undermineyour territorial integrity iS Prime Minister Putin You understand thatwe cannotsit back and wait We have to go after the terrorists where they are Secretary Albright But indiscriminate bombing will cause problems oiT Prime Minister Putin There will be no massive bombing campaign no carpet­bombing We have a sound military operation going Listen to what the CIA tells you not what the bandits say Yes we've made some mistakes Our pilots have hitour own peopleon our own territory But we agree on the principle of dialogue as you propose and we are workingon it NSA Berger I'mafraid I have to be the bad guy and say thatwe are out of time U The President Thank you U Prime Minister Putin Our thanksgo to you You have raised our consciousness I wanted alsoto tell you thatPresident Yeltsin may go to Istanbul The President The lastOSCE Summit where I saw BorisI flew nine hours to get there I was sixhours on the ground and I flewnine hours back — 18 hours in the air— and Borischewed me out over something I can't remember what laughter But you tell BoristhatI miss him and I would loveto see him at Istanbul End of Conversation •SECRET ' This document is from the holdings of The National Security Archive Suite 701 Gelman Library The George Washington University 2130 H Street NW Washington D C 20037 Phone 202 994-7000 Fax 202 994-7005 nsarchiv@gwu edu Read related article Putin Clinton and Presidential Transitions 2020-11-02