hlie Prolect sS199900030 LS Department of State Hxdse Deny In PulL25 assify In Part ease emption s MEMORANDUM dSt 7 red i «fA Santiago July 15 198 ' Q rrld J MCAPTIQNID OF CONVERSATION Participants Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina James Lucier Legislative Assistant to the Senator Deborah DeMoss Latin American Specialist to Senator Clifford Kiracofe Defense Specialist to Senator Harry Time and U it Place Distribution G Barnes Ambassador to Chile July 12 1986 12 25-1 05 pm Crowne Plaza Hotel Santiago Chile ARA E Abrams PA B Kalb DCM to circulate copy to J Keane P DeShazo B Mickle and ARA SC W Belew before the meeting Ms DeMoss had called to ask me to bring copies of the cables the Embassy had sent on the Rojas case involving a student who had died of burns caused by his apparently being set on fire I said that it might be difficult to do so because of its being Saturday but I would try About two hours Senator sat me across the conference table from him and placed of his aides at either end and one along side of him two of took notes so I decided I would too He began by asking me wh ther I had brought the cables When I replied that much of our communication with Washington on the Rojas case had been by phone but that I had found a few cables but not all he said that would I said I would make it much more difficult for us to proceed send a message to Washington asking that any pertinent cables be made available to him He never asked to see the cables I did The two them have with me bush Senator Helms then said there was no point beating around the screwed it up -- you and the people in Washington By he complained about my presence at the Rojas way of particulars funeral and the State Department and White House press statements which pressed the Government of Chile to carry out an investigation when the government was already doing so Turning back to me he said he had not wanted to meet me because people in Washington had told him I was advertised as someone sent to Chile to undermine Pinochet I responded that that was not the as mission George Shultz had given me I was as anti-Communist from in years meant knew what communism my he was because I Eastern Europe and my job was to do what I could to help promote It was in this a return to democracy and advance human rights then went into I context that I had gone to the Rojas service by the some detail about that day under steady questioning Senator and his staff They seemed convinced that everyone at the You have IS Q- mirandum of Conversation with July 12 19S6 Page Senator Helms CO 2 funeral was a communist and obviously so and were surprised to hear that my wife and I and the other diplomats spent most of our time in a side room apart from the others in attendance They wanted to know what other democratic opposition leaders were there the Chilean Human Rights Commission and what sort of a reputation had I was also quizzed on what sort of an investigation the Embassy had made to which I replied we had made none formally because we had no such authority but had talked to people whohad talked to witnesses and would be seeing whether any witnesses could talk eye to us Mr Kiracofe asked if we had called in the Legal Attache which I said we had not yet done but if asked by the prosecuting The main interest during this judge could make such a request whole part of the interrogation was in trying to prove that the Washington statements were based on inadequate information and that the Department spokesman Bernie Kalb whom the senator said he knew well should have limited himself to praising the Government of Chile for initiating government an investigation I pointed out'that the took a few days to do that but that that step had been in the Washington statements as well as the proffered recognized help of the government's rights commission The Senator came back again to my going to t»e Human Righ' s Commission to attend the service He wanted to know whether i at was I said it was mine based on both the my decision or Washington's strong interest in the U S as indicated by the White House and State Department statements as well as by the horrible nature of the crime itself that appeared to have caused the boy's death -- a repugnance that was shared widely in Chile Chileans had told me this was simply not the type of action that had been known in Chile I told him for that matter I'd even had a note of apology from the head of the national police over my wife and my having been subjected to tear gas The Senator said that however regrettable new human the death was he could have understood my attendance if it had been on instruct ions but if was my decision then we have a said we problem I in that case probably did He asked if I had become thought my attendance had been a mistake I said government the controversial thanks to the government though itself had condemned the whole incident of the burnings But no was a mistake in terms of what we stood for I did not think He asked if I had attended the funeral of any slain policemen I said I had not this having been only the second funeral I had it it it attended mother in Chile the first being that of President Pinochet's conversation then switched to his asking if I knew about the statements regarding the nature of the burns which seemed to indicate that the young man had been carrying something that had exploded rather than been set afire as had been reported at the time I said I'd read such a statement by President Pinochet but The of Conversation mcgandum July 12 1986 with Senator IS Helms Page 3 1 that in talking the night before with Dr John Constable of Massachusetts General who had been here last weekend and examined Rojas Dr Constable had said it seemed an unlikely explanation We talked for a few minutes further on the medical side of things with my answering questions with what I knew from Dr Constable and a report of July 3 by a doctor from the Worker's Hospital earlier said that the boy's mother was a communist that I said I'd heard the rumor but no more He then asked what I knew about the girl who had also bee'n burned and specifically if I was aware that she too was member of a communist group I said I'd seen the press reports to that effect but had also seen her father's formal denial We were trying to see if we could learn anything more The Senator said that of course was only to be expected and for his part he was convinced that she was a communist and was taking back to the States a video which showed her in actions of a terrorist nature lv' The Senator and asked had if I knew other items that were touched on are worth noting 1 a reference the Senator had made in one of his press statements to there being no drug problem in Chile led me to say we were finding increasing difficulties from one of the investigative organs the Investigaciones even to the point where they had tortured one of our informants the senator was not interested in pursuing the theme 2 he said he had heard from 30 U S citizens resident in Chile but then spoke only of one man who complained that I saw only leftists I said that was untrue and asked them to tell the man to come see me 3 I told the senator he was the first of that body that had not let me know when visiting the country to which I was accredited Deborah DeMoss said that was because it from the might appear that the senator was getting instructions State Department an apprehension that the senator confirmed 4 I told the Senator I hope he would let me call on him in He was nonWashington so we could talk at greater length committal A few occasions the Senator said that he wasn't a complete apologist for Pinochet but Pinochet warts and all was a lot better than what was likely to come after Once again the senator focused on the statements issued in Washington saying that he had been told apparently referring to the Abrams Night Line interview that the D S had issued an ultimatum that it would apply economic sanctions unless the Rojas investigation produced the right results I said I'd given no ultimatum and know of none in Washington He then went back to his complaints about Bernie Kalb's statements he could have said and why on the basis of so little information what he did I said our focus all the way through had been on and the the importance of a thorough and prompt investigation senator did say he could understand why that much might be said All I could suggest at this point was that he talk to people in z On two Washington IS Memorandum of Conversation July 12 1986 Page with Senator Helms 4 for tne charges again toward the end by saying that I had seen that Washington put out false statements on the basis of little or no evidence and that I myself had made a statement by appearing with leftists and communists I told him We had provided the information we had he was completely wrong available to us from people in whom we had confidence we had reported as well what was in the press and had conveyed clearly the steps the government had taken The fact that the communists exploited the funeral could not change the abhorrent nature of the boy's death and that was why I was there aligned not with the leftists but with the great mass of Chileans who were revolted by the event vs vAs me Nr Lucier formulated P a zF CO